cersie's psyche

[Sigella]

On 2017-05-23 at 8:50 AM, Graydon Hicks said:

i wish to start a topic on the psychology on cersie. i know she's not as crazy as lysa, but her attachment to her children, dismissal of her family beyond them, i feel needs a closer look.

Great topic!

I love reading Cersei's chapters (except the myrish swamp part ) she's an interesting character and very cleverly written. While nothing can justify her evil deeds, one thing about her actually moves me:

Quote

Though Tywin Lannister was not a man given to public display, it is said that his love for his lady wife was deep and long-abiding. "Only Lady Joanna truly knows the man beneath the armor," Grand Maester Pycelle wrote the Citadel, "and all his smiles belong to her and her alone. I do avow that I have even observed her make him laugh, not once, but upon three separate occasions!"

This quote from the world book says something of the father Cersei lost along with her mother. With this I kind of get that she is pissed and hates the world. To me, Cersei is a lot like Arya - only Arya had Jon (Needle) and Ned (Syrio), while Cersei was left to learn sceaming, seducing and manipulating which is generally viewed as callous and immoral, much unlike a good honest stabbing

Cersei and Arya both know perfect family life and the loss of it.

[HoodedCrow]

Cersei is pitiable at times. But we are privy to her thoughts and actions and she really doesn't care about anybody, unlike Arya who also rescues people, forms bonds, loves people and gives strangers food. Arya is black, grey, and white. Whereas, we don't just guess that Cersei is callous, we read her mind, we see her reject her twin when he is not perfect, we know her deeds. There isn't much up side to Cersei, although if she were a man and a warrior only she might have been more celebrated.

In supporting the idea that Cersei is narcissistic, I will recall that she is all about status, narcissistic threats and projections.

 

For anyone who is keen about the psyche, I can recommend a book called The Sociopath Next Door. It is written to engage specialists or those casually interested in what makes a sociopath. No I'm not the author!

 

 

[ravenous reader]

On 5/24/2017 at 9:55 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

Why not all 3? Nothing in BPD or NPD accounts for murdering your best friend.

'Why not all 3 ..?'  Isn't that a little greedy, even for Cersei, hogging all the diagnoses?! ( USD, what is it with you and the 'mashed potatoes and gravy'... )

As a preliminary impression, I was suggesting she has traits or features of all 3, but not necessarily qualifying for the diagnosis of all 3 disorders.  I'm sure you'd agree it's probably better ultimately to give her one diagnosis rather than a hodgepodge of many overlapping ones.  But as I said only half-jokingly upthread, we can't really make a fair assessment since we're unable to interview Cersei, nor her family, friends (are there any?), acquaintances, work contacts, ooh and the Casterly Rock servants going back to her childhood (I wonder what they might say) -- and I'm not about to rely on GRRM's game of omission in order to rule anything out conclusively (on the other hand, I'd put money on Baelish unequivocally being a high-functioning psychopath).  

Although one would prefer, given the lack of a comprehensive picture, to err on the side of a more conservative diagnosis than Baelish's, it is very concerning, however, that as a child herself she murdered another child with her bare hands.  In a series replete with murder, we haven't seen too many of those, have we, i.e. callous murders 'in cold blood' committed barehanded?  It has echoes of Baelish's similar murder of Lysa.  Pushing someone with whom you have a longstanding close relationship, and who therefore implicitly trusts you, at close range over the lip of a well is not too different symbolically and qualitatively to pushing such a person through the moon door and into the merciless 'bloody blue.'  To add insult to injury, Baelish made sure to taunt Lysa with the 'only Cat' comment, injecting an 'unnecessary' bit of sadistic venom, so that would be Lysa's last thought.  Chilling stuff.  If there is a literary correlation between the two murders, I wonder what words Cersei uttered either before she pushed her 'friend' or following the push as she watched her flounder in the well beneath her?  How long did she stay at the lip of the well watching?  Did she enjoy the additional element of torturing someone psychically, already then?  

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Cersei IX

"If it please Your Grace." Beneath the courtesy, there was a faint hint of unease, but he handed her the lute all the same. One does not refuse the queen's request.

Cersei plucked a string and smiled at the sound. "Sweet and sad as love. Tell me, Wat . . . the first time you took Margaery to bed, was that before she wed my son, or after?"

For a moment he did not seem to understand. When he did, his eyes grew large. "Your Grace has been misinformed. I swear to you, I never—"

"Liar!" Cersei smashed the lute across the singer's face so hard the painted wood exploded into shards and splinters. "Lord Orton, summon my guards and take this creature to the dungeons."

In comparison to Baelish, Cersei also showed paranoid tendencies motivating the murder of Melara, which have only increased in prominence over time.  Originally, people designated 'borderline' were considered to be on the border between neurosis and psychosis.  I'd say with age Cersei has encroached well over that border, the extent of which would need to be adequately probed.  She's very like Aerys, to the point where one wonders if there's some genetic relation providing the genetic basis for her pathology -- although they keep assuring me whenever I bring it up that A+J=C+-J is impossible, 'because The World Book said [so there!]' that Joanna and Aerys were 'seldom' in the same place at the same time ('seldom' is not = 'never'...just saying...).

As far as murder can ever be 'accounted for', bear in mind the adage that not all the 'bad' are 'mad', nor 'mad' 'bad,' by which I mean that criminality is not synonymous with having a mental disorder, nor is a mental disorder necessarily exculpatory with respect to accountability in the sense of bearing social responsibility for a crime (being found 'guilty' in a court of law).

[Sigella]

On 2017-05-25 at 7:47 PM, HoodedCrow said:

Cersei is pitiable at times. But we are privy to her thoughts and actions and she really doesn't care about anybody, unlike Arya who also rescues people, forms bonds, loves people and gives strangers food. Arya is black, grey, and white. Whereas, we don't just guess that Cersei is callous, we read her mind, we see her reject her twin when he is not perfect, we know her deeds. There isn't much up side to Cersei, although if she were a man and a warrior only she might have been more celebrated.

In supporting the idea that Cersei is narcissistic, I will recall that she is all about status, narcissistic threats and projections.

 

For anyone who is keen about the psyche, I can recommend a book called The Sociopath Next Door. It is written to engage specialists or those casually interested in what makes a sociopath. No I'm not the author!

 

 

While reading her thoughts she never even glances at the high road, she cannot see it.  

Cersei does form bonds, toxic crappy ones surely, but they are there (the Waters-dude who stole her dromonds, the Swamp, Qyburn, Lancel, whom are all more or less using her).

So I gather she is unaware of the morality in her actions as well as a low social skill and lack of imagination. This points to autism, right?

Also, Cersei does have empathy. She feels bad and is haunted by "Melara in her well" and her handmaiden in Qyburns dungeons. Her having empathy makes her an unlikely sociopath/psychopath/anti-social-personality.

 

I'm not trying to make her out like some saint, just wanna discuss possibilities.

[Dejection]

Cersei only 'loved' Jaime as long as he looked like her and acted like her; as long as he was a reflection of her. Even then, during her youth while she was still having an affair with Jaime she even fantasized about marrying Rhaegar simply because Rhaegar was good looking. In any case, as soon as Jaime began thinking/looking different, Cersei acted disgusted.

[HoodedCrow]

Well the quality of Cersei's bonds would suggest a raging superficiality, and I don't think Her haunting shows any sort of, OMG, poor Melara, how she must have suffered and it was all my fault. Ouch Jaime must be feeling like crap because he lost his sword hand, I will stick by him during this vulnerable time. People are status symbols and tools for her use. It does give her blind spots and she does lose people's loyalty.

Her imagination shows up in party planning, dress, fantasizing about the future, and mainly in scheming. She has to be able to think of killing Robert, his habits and her tools...one being Lancel. She makes a risky but successful plan. Her plan to have only Jaimes children because she hates Robert is hard core manipulation.

The autistic people that I have known are not so devious in a long term way, and dissembling is difficult. They may also have problems with verbal language, serious or minor, and have to put a lot of effort into social interactions. They may have some unusual sensory reactions. They may have some "stereotyped" behaviors, such as hand flapping or spinning or take an unusual interest in objects. 

Interesting idea.

 

[hitman47]

Cersei is TRAGIC CHARACTER even as a CHILD becuse of the prophecy.

[Graydon Hicks]

i also want to point out her sense of self superiority: when ever one of her plans falls through, be it a policy implemented in kingslanding, or the obligations of her family to joffrey and, through him, her, or even her attempts at military strategy, the fault never lies with her, in her mind; all the blame rests with those who are supposed to carry out her will. if the plan fails, wll its because they didnt do their jobs properly, or didnt follow her orders as they should have. she constantly deems herself and her favorite son faultless and perfect, its the fault of everyone else is shit doesnt work out.

and i also want to bring up her disdain for the beautiful young ladies in court. sansa, margery, ect. now, i dont know how much of her distraste for them comes from her narcissism, and how much is because of the fear of the prophecy, lingering at the back of her mind.

[ftheking]

 

On 23.5.2017 at 9:13 PM, Jon Ice-Eyes said:

Also, George has this notion that he can humanise characters who are irredemably evil. The driving notion being the so-called wisdom that, "An enemy is only someone whose story we weren't willing to hear," or some such bullshit. (I mean, this is true in so many cases, especially on the one-on-one level; I am a firm believer in practicioners of the mental arts and their ability to help people.) But this is not universally true!

He is misinterpreted there. He is very aware that some people are more evil than others and some are completely evil. He directly rejects moral relativism! It's just that even the worst villain usually has other goals than just "to be evil". It's still interesting to understand them, although you can never accept them or live with them.

As for Cersei psyche, you quite often hear the diagnosis "narcissistic personality disorder with antisocial elements" and I think this works quite nicely for Cersei. I would add some paranoid elements as well. I would say she is pretty much rotten by nature. Anyone else would have really loved their twin in her situation - losing her mother and having Tywin as a father. Look no further than Jamie! He coped by loving Cersei AND Tyrion. Loving your siblings, even disabled ones at whose births your mother died, is not and was never easier for males than females, on the contrary showing affection is encouraged in girls and somewhat discouraged in boys in sexist societies. Cersei seems to be for some reason incapable of loving and emphasizing with others mostly by nature. A bad egg.

[Graydon Hicks]

i wonder how much of that narcissism comes from being a lannister. looking at tywin and cersei, i get the impression that, at least to them, they see being a lannister as superior to even being a king, as superior to any of their legal and rank peers of the realm. hell, they made the royal crest and colors half lannister, instead of pure baratheon.