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Is Benjen Coldhands?


Mfeeney2010

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I know in the books Coldhands and Benjen are completely different characters, but since Benjen's return in season 6 is he basically a replacement for coldhands? I was disappointed when CH wasn't in the show from the get go and now i don't know if S6 Benjen is where GRRM has him in the books or if he's basically become the CH character in the show. Only because of his involvement with Bran and saving him in a CH manner.

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1 hour ago, Mfeeney2010 said:

I know in the books Coldhands and Benjen are completely different characters, but since Benjen's return in season 6 is he basically a replacement for coldhands? I was disappointed when CH wasn't in the show from the get go and now i don't know if S6 Benjen is where GRRM has him in the books or if he's basically become the CH character in the show. Only because of his involvement with Bran and saving him in a CH manner.

How do you know that? Until now, we have no clue who Coldhands is and where Benjen is. We basically know nothing about Coldhands or Benjen. Everything you may have read about those two, and everything you may think to know, are some fan theories on fan forums. Most of those theories take this infamous note from GRRM to his editor, where he put this big "NO" on the question of the editor wheather Benjen was Coldhands. But this "NO" could mean anything: It could mean that Codhands is not Benjen. But it could also mean that Coldhands was Benjen, but no longer is and has no memory of his earlier life. Or GRRM has simply lied to his editor, because he did not want to reveal this secrez. Be as it may. What I am trying to say is, that we don't know who Coldhands is and we certainly don't know if Bejen is Coldhands. 

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17 minutes ago, KINGpanther said:

Yes in the show, unknown in the books. HBO didn't want to cast someone else to play Coldhands so used an.existing character

This, in the books the matter is open to debate, in the series it is quite obvious that BenJen is "playing the part" of Cold Hands.  And I look for him to play a bigger part in the war with the others, as we now know that he was transformed by the Children of the Forest.

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On 5/23/2017 at 11:42 AM, Dragonsbone said:

How do you know that? Until now, we have no clue who Coldhands is and where Benjen is. We basically know nothing about Coldhands or Benjen. Everything you may have read about those two, and everything you may think to know, are some fan theories on fan forums. Most of those theories take this infamous note from GRRM to his editor, where he put this big "NO" on the question of the editor wheather Benjen was Coldhands. But this "NO" could mean anything: It could mean that Codhands is not Benjen. But it could also mean that Coldhands was Benjen, but no longer is and has no memory of his earlier life. Or GRRM has simply lied to his editor, because he did not want to reveal this secrez. Be as it may. What I am trying to say is, that we don't know who Coldhands is and we certainly don't know if Bejen is Coldhands. 

There is no reason to doubt Martin's NO. He answered unequivocally to a very direct question asked by one of his close and trusted associates who obviously expected a sincere answer from him. And of course, the entire Coldhands=Benjen idea was pretty stupid to begin with. It's on the level with Jaqen=Syrio and similar nonsense invented by more childish parts of the fandom.

So yes we actually do know that they are not the same person in the books, unless we're living in denial and trying so hard to justify everything D&D do in their ridiculous show, as many show lovers unfortunately do.

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50 minutes ago, StepStark said:

There is no reason to doubt Martin's NO. He answered unequivocally to a very direct question asked by one of his close and trusted associates who obviously expected a sincere answer from him. And of course, the entire Coldhands=Benjen idea was pretty stupid to begin with. It's on the level with Jaqen=Syrio and similar nonsense invented by more childish parts of the fandom.

So yes we actually do know that they are not the same person in the books, unless we're living in denial and trying so hard to justify everything D&D do in their ridiculous show, as many show lovers unfortunately do.

I actually shared your opinion in the first part and thought to be very reasonable. Until I read your second part, where you made clear that you are just playing random Bullshit-Bingo: D&D, ridiculous show, show lovers. BINGOOO.

I never said (but it will probably not bother you at all) it is not the case that Benjen is not Coldhands. I just said something very obvious: we don't know it. Which is a fact. We are also pretty sure that R+L=J, but we don't know it yet. All we know, is that Jon is a bastard, his mother yet unknown. If you don't understand the english term "to know", google is your friend. Except you are GRRM, then I apologize, since then you clearly "know".

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1 hour ago, Dragonsbone said:

I actually shared your opinion in the first part and thought to be very reasonable. Until I read your second part, where you made clear that you are just playing random Bullshit-Bingo: D&D, ridiculous show, show lovers. BINGOOO.

I never said (but it will probably not bother you at all) it is not the case that Benjen is not Coldhands. I just said something very obvious: we don't know it. Which is a fact. We are also pretty sure that R+L=J, but we don't know it yet. All we know, is that Jon is a bastard, his mother yet unknown. If you don't understand the english term "to know", google is your friend. Except you are GRRM, then I apologize, since then you clearly "know".

Please. Just read your first post: you said that Martin's note is "infamous"! What's infamous about it??? LOL!!! And also, your speculations are completely baseless and sorry to say irrational. In the world of adults "no" actually means "no". Had Martin meant something else, he would answer something else. That is what treating someone with respect means. It's disrespectful to substitute "CH was Benjen but he doesn't remember it" with a misleading "no". D&D treat their fans that way all the time with their misleading statements, but that's another matter. As I said, we have no reason to doubt Martin's "no" to his trusted editor.

And also, your speculation about Martin potentially changing his mind. Yes, it is possible, in a sense that anything's possible. It could even get worse. Martin could suddenly loose his mind completely and start changing characters left and right. But again, in the world of adults those possibilities are not considered even, because if they are, then nothing can ever be taken for certain. That way, you couldn't possibly be certain that I didn't change my mind right after posting this, and that would make the entire purpose of debates completely absurd.

So please, before you start accusing me for "playing random Bullshit-Bingo", just look at what you've been playing all along.

Oh, and yes, the show is ridiculous. Stupid "Benjen instead of Coldhands" switch is just one more among hundreds of proofs. Just think about it: D&D knew that Benjen is not Coldhands in the books, and yet they put him in Coldhands place (or the closest thing to it) for what reason exactly? How exactly did the story benefit from bringing Benjen back? In no way, that's how! It didn't benefit at all. Benjen is completely irrelevant in the show universe, and his return was equally irrelevant. It just shows how disrespectful D&D are toward the source material and the fandom. They simply don't care about the source material and they often play with fans' expectations, even if they are unrealistic as in the case of Benjen and Coldhands.

Sorry if it hurt your feelings, but I'm going to call the show ridiculous until you or someone managed to rationally explain at least some of the nonsense D&D include all the time.

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4 hours ago, StepStark said:

Please. Just read your first post: you said that Martin's note is "infamous"! What's infamous about it??? LOL!!! And also, your speculations are completely baseless and sorry to say irrational. In the world of adults "no" actually means "no". Had Martin meant something else, he would answer something else. That is what treating someone with respect means. It's disrespectful to substitute "CH was Benjen but he doesn't remember it" with a misleading "no". D&D treat their fans that way all the time with their misleading statements, but that's another matter. As I said, we have no reason to doubt Martin's "no" to his trusted editor.

And also, your speculation about Martin potentially changing his mind. Yes, it is possible, in a sense that anything's possible. It could even get worse. Martin could suddenly loose his mind completely and start changing characters left and right. But again, in the world of adults those possibilities are not considered even, because if they are, then nothing can ever be taken for certain. That way, you couldn't possibly be certain that I didn't change my mind right after posting this, and that would make the entire purpose of debates completely absurd.

So please, before you start accusing me for "playing random Bullshit-Bingo", just look at what you've been playing all along.

Oh, and yes, the show is ridiculous. Stupid "Benjen instead of Coldhands" switch is just one more among hundreds of proofs. Just think about it: D&D knew that Benjen is not Coldhands in the books, and yet they put him in Coldhands place (or the closest thing to it) for what reason exactly? How exactly did the story benefit from bringing Benjen back? In no way, that's how! It didn't benefit at all. Benjen is completely irrelevant in the show universe, and his return was equally irrelevant. It just shows how disrespectful D&D are toward the source material and the fandom. They simply don't care about the source material and they often play with fans' expectations, even if they are unrealistic as in the case of Benjen and Coldhands.

Sorry if it hurt your feelings, but I'm going to call the show ridiculous until you or someone managed to rationally explain at least some of the nonsense D&D include all the time.

1. Who are you exactly that I should loose my time to explain why the show is this or that? I don't care if you love, hate or whatsoever. Which brings me to point Nr. 2.

2. What people like you consitently don't seem to understand, or are imun to it, is the fact that most people are not anoyed at people who hate the show, since there are no shows or programe in the world who are loved by everybody, except maybe north korea. It is the fact, that you implicitly keep putting your personal hate against the show on every f*** god damn thread ever made. Everywhere. No one can make any thread where you don't find someone putting his opinion about how the show sucks. And up goes the discussion, no matter which content (just like now). That is what make a lot of us angry. Make a thread about how the show sucks, and no one bats an eye. But please let people discuss on THE SHOW PART OF THE FORUM also about topics that are not related to your personal opinion about the show. You people are like those vegans who claim that other people don't like them because they are vegans. No, it is pecause they are smuggy about themselfes. The joke goes: How do you know someone is a vegan? He is gonna tell you. This is very much like those "Show haters". And by writing something like "but prove ME that blabla" is just the very definition of it. We don't have to prove you anything. But we ask you kindly but firmly to let us discuss the actual topic.  I won't respond to anything you have to add, for the respect of the OP. 

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13 hours ago, Dragonsbone said:

1. Who are you exactly that I should loose my time to explain why the show is this or that? I don't care if you love, hate or whatsoever. Which brings me to point Nr. 2.

2. What people like you consitently don't seem to understand, or are imun to it, is the fact that most people are not anoyed at people who hate the show, since there are no shows or programe in the world who are loved by everybody, except maybe north korea. It is the fact, that you implicitly keep putting your personal hate against the show on every f*** god damn thread ever made. Everywhere. No one can make any thread where you don't find someone putting his opinion about how the show sucks. And up goes the discussion, no matter which content (just like now). That is what make a lot of us angry. Make a thread about how the show sucks, and no one bats an eye. But please let people discuss on THE SHOW PART OF THE FORUM also about topics that are not related to your personal opinion about the show. You people are like those vegans who claim that other people don't like them because they are vegans. No, it is pecause they are smuggy about themselfes. The joke goes: How do you know someone is a vegan? He is gonna tell you. This is very much like those "Show haters". And by writing something like "but prove ME that blabla" is just the very definition of it. We don't have to prove you anything. But we ask you kindly but firmly to let us discuss the actual topic.  I won't respond to anything you have to add, for the respect of the OP. 

Sorry to say, but this is a very poor dramatization. Go ahead and be frustrated if you want, but what I said was just a figure of speech. For the record, I do not expect from you or any other show lover to explain (not "prove" as you misread) any of the nonsense from the show because it's inexplicable, just like nonsense tends to be. And that's why I'm going to keep calling the show ridiculous, because it simply is. At least I have very realistic basis for that opinion, unlike you who had no reason whatsoever to call Martin's answer "infamous" and speculate why his answer shouldn't be taken as true.

Speaking of annoying, there is nothing more annoying than show lovers trying to distort the entire universe only to find even the smallest justification for all the nonsense D&D put in the show. In this particular example, you tried to discredit Martin's perfectly direct answer only in order to somehow make sense of Benjen's return to the show. Honestly, I've never seen something like that before GOT. That willingness to destroy everything and anything only to save D&D from (more than deserved) criticism is something that didn't exist before GOT, at least as far as I know. Even if GOT was as good as you say, it still wouldn't be worth all that mental gymnastics you go through in order to justify D&D. Nothing would, to be honest. No work of art is worth it if you need to distort even the simplest and most direct of truths in order to "defend" it, because at the end of the day you're not actually defending it, you're just showing that you're not even interested in a real discussion.

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