What part of Dunk's life do you most want to see?

[Canon Claude]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The most interesting thing for me would be the changing circumstances Dunk is going to find himself in.

Dunk and Egg on the road can be interesting, but Dunk at Summerhall with Prince Maekar or Dunk at court with Aerys I, Bloodraven, Shiera, Rhaegel, his children, Daemon II Blackfyre, etc. could be very interesting, too.

Another great scenario could be Dunk and Egg at King Maekar's court, Dunk as Maekar's Kingsguard, being forced to serve/interact with Daeron and Aerion (assuming he joins the KG during the reign of Aerys I or Maekar).

And then, of course, Dunk at the court of Aegon V, as his closest confident, and, most likely, his Hand as well as the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. The ultimate architect of Egg's reforms is not going to be Egg. It will be Dunk. Both because he is the one who is going to open Egg's eyes about the situation the smallfolk is living in but also because Dunk is not going to remain the uneducated fool he is right now. He will get training, he will learn to read, and he will become a great politician.

Will he? I feel like he's always going to be a bit foolish. It's just who he is. Aegon will get smart on his own. He'll be able to make his own observations of the smallfolk, given how alert and aware he is compared to Dunk. Dunk will improve his fighting prowess till he becomes the greatest warrior of his time, but I don't think it would fit his character if he becomes this wise politician who secretly tells Aegon what to do. It takes away all of Aegon's agency if he was just being told what to do by someone else, especially Dunk of all people.

[Lion of the West]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The most interesting thing for me would be the changing circumstances Dunk is going to find himself in.

Dunk and Egg on the road can be interesting, but Dunk at Summerhall with Prince Maekar or Dunk at court with Aerys I, Bloodraven, Shiera, Rhaegel, his children, Daemon II Blackfyre, etc. could be very interesting, too.

Another great scenario could be Dunk and Egg at King Maekar's court, Dunk as Maekar's Kingsguard, being forced to serve/interact with Daeron and Aerion (assuming he joins the KG during the reign of Aerys I or Maekar).

And then, of course, Dunk at the court of Aegon V, as his closest confident, and, most likely, his Hand as well as the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. The ultimate architect of Egg's reforms is not going to be Egg. It will be Dunk. Both because he is the one who is going to open Egg's eyes about the situation the smallfolk is living in but also because Dunk is not going to remain the uneducated fool he is right now. He will get training, he will learn to read, and he will become a great politician.

While I certainly appreciate Dunk as a heroic character I don't see him as the kind of rags-to-riches and dumb-to-genius kind of Gary Sue who would excell in all areas and keep the king, and his "friend", as a puppet for his own political ambitions. Its certainly possible that he will be a kind of Davos who is trusted and close to his king, but there's no chance that he'll during some decades catch up on the extensive education and life experience which would have been afforded to noble children. If Duncan learns to read and write as well as an educated noble by the end of it, I will be impressed by him, not to mention going from a politically blind individual to a master of the political game is even more unlikely. I don't see it happening beyond fan fiction.

Although to be honest there's a growing trend of Targaryen fan fiction on these very forums that reminds me much of the Baratheon fan fiction with Stannis going from nothing at the Wall to claim ultimate victory and defeat all comers across Westeros.

[Lord Varys]

58 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

Will he? I feel like he's always going to be a bit foolish. It's just who he is. Aegon will get smart on his own. He'll be able to make his own observations of the smallfolk, given how alert and aware he is compared to Dunk. Dunk will improve his fighting prowess till he becomes the greatest warrior of his time, but I don't think it would fit his character if he becomes this wise politician who secretly tells Aegon what to do. It takes away all of Aegon's agency if he was just being told what to do by someone else, especially Dunk of all people.

That is not what I said. It is quite clear that Egg is more intelligent than Dunk, but Dunk is also not stupid. Not really. He figures out how to resolve Ostrey-Webber conflict all by himself. At Ashford and Whitewalls he is not as his best, true, but that's because he has as of yet not really figured out how deal and interact with highborn nobles. He will learn that, though. If he doesn't, Aerys I, Maekar, or even Aegon V simply would not suffer him on their Kingsguard or in their presence.

If Dunk doesn't become a competent politician and administrator then George better cut him from the later stories entirely. We don't care about reading stories were Dunk is on guard duty in front of Queen Betha's apartments for a fortnight, or so.

And the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard doesn't just oversee the protection of the king. He also sits on the Small Council and is asked for advice there. He has a great part in the governance of the Realm. And if Dunk sucks at that job Egg should not have made him Lord Commander in the first place. Egg isn't going to choose a man who cannot do the job.

And Dunk most certainly won't tell Egg what to do. But he certainly will give a lot of input and perhaps even draft some of the reforms Egg is going to implement. Dunk has a much better picture of the life of smallfolk and the means the lords have to mistreat, exploit, and brutalize their peasants. He knows what has to be done to stop that.

If you check the history of Hands of the King then most Hands were either close family members of the kings (Orys Baratheon, Maegor, Baelon, Otto Hightower, Viserys II,Baelor Breakspear, Bloodraven, Tyrion, Tywin, etc.) or close friends of theirs (Orys Baratheon, Septon Barth, Tywin Lannister, Jon Arryn, Eddard Stark).

The idea that Egg would not choose his best friend as his Hand is actually pretty unlikely. He needs a man he can trust in that office. And he cannot trust a born lord to act against the interests of his class.

50 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

While I certainly appreciate Dunk as a heroic character I don't see him as the kind of rags-to-riches and dumb-to-genius kind of Gary Sue who would excell in all areas and keep the king, and his "friend", as a puppet for his own political ambitions. Its certainly possible that he will be a kind of Davos who is trusted and close to his king, but there's no chance that he'll during some decades catch up on the extensive education and life experience which would have been afforded to noble children. If Duncan learns to read and write as well as an educated noble by the end of it, I will be impressed by him, not to mention going from a politically blind individual to a master of the political game is even more unlikely. I don't see it happening beyond fan fiction.

George has written that find of 'fan fiction' himself, with Septon Barth. The man was the son of blacksmith who rose high because he had certain talents and befriended a young king. Dunk essentially has the same career ahead of him, aside from the fact that he befriended a prince who is going to become king only about twenty years after they met.

The idea that 16-year-old Dunk we know right now is who he is and will always remain is pretty silly, actually. Aegon V won't be the same boy Egg is, either. And Dunk the Kingsguard won't be the same as Dunk the husband, Dunk the father, and so on. 

And the idea that there is going to much of a 'game' during the reign of Aegon V is pretty unlikely, actually. Aegon V will appoint men to his council whom he can trust to support, and he will deal harshly with rebels and men opposing him. He will suffer defeats there, and be forced to compromise a lot, but the idea that he will suffer the kind of ambitious lickspittles on his court that dominated Robert's and Aerys' is very unlikely.

Dunk and Egg are very special people with a special story. They will have an actual political agenda, not just the egoistic desire to remain in power and enjoy their privileges and wealth (as pretty much anybody else does).

[Lion of the West]

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

George has written that find of 'fan fiction' himself, with Septon Barth. The man was the son of blacksmith who rose high because he had certain talents and befriended a young king. Dunk essentially has the same career ahead of him, aside from the fact that he befriended a prince who is going to become king only about twenty years after they met.

That's very much incorrect, I'm afraid. Barth was by all we know not an exceptional warrior and my Gary Sue comment isn't that Duncan can be a friend to the king. Its that he'll excell in all areas and do so without pretty much any formal upbringing or education at all. That's Gary Sue, as there's no way that he'll spend extensive time learning from a maester when he's travelling the roads as a hedge knight. Or that Aegon will be allowed to get that kind of information when travelling around with Duncan, for that matter.

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that 16-year-old Dunk we know right now is who he is and will always remain is pretty silly, actually. Aegon V won't be the same boy Egg is, either. And Dunk the Kingsguard won't be the same as Dunk the husband, Dunk the father, and so on. 

I don't expect him to remain the same but the basic foundation of his character has been laid. He isn't going to do a 180 degree turn. The things that makes Duncan and Aegon who they are, are very unlikely to change dramatically. Duncan for example is likely to remain chivalrous and honorable and naive, just like he's been acting for the last three novels despite his many experiences.

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And the idea that there is going to much of a 'game' during the reign of Aegon V is pretty unlikely, actually. Aegon V will appoint men to his council whom he can trust to support, and he will deal harshly with rebels and men opposing him. He will suffer defeats there, and be forced to compromise a lot, but the idea that he will suffer the kind of ambitious lickspittles on his court that dominated Robert's and Aerys' is very unlikely.

The idea that the Game of Thrones isn't played or will be played less is laughable. As long as humans draws breath in Planetos, the game will be played. And what we know from Aegon V's rule is that the game was very much played when he ruled.

I think that you seriously overestimate the strength of Aegon V's rule. There's a reason why Aegon spend most of his time in armour and had to withdraw most his reforms, and why he couldn't even rule his own House. Aegon wanted to be Jaehaerys the Old KIng or Daeron the Good but he ended up being a new Viserys I or a Aegon III. He may well have done as you proposed and not taken rank into consideration, and then felt the mistake when lacking from a solid base of supporters to help him through the opposition.

I don't doubt that Aegon V meant well but all we know is that for all his ambitions, he failed to bring about what he set out to do. Without knowing exactly what reforms he wanted to do I can't tell if it was worth it, and even less without knowing the price paid for the attempt.

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Dunk and Egg are very special people with a special story. They will have an actual political agenda, not just the egoistic desire to remain in power and enjoy their privileges and wealth (as pretty much anybody else does).

They are special, there's no mistake about that.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

I want to see none of Dunk's life, until after we see The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring.

 

[Lord Varys]

43 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

That's very much incorrect, I'm afraid. Barth was by all we know not an exceptional warrior and my Gary Sue comment isn't that Duncan can be a friend to the king. Its that he'll excell in all areas and do so without pretty much any formal upbringing or education at all.

Dunk is unlikely to become a great scholar or sorcerer, nor a great architect, etc. Barth was all that in addition to being a great politician. You can be a great warrior and a great politician.

And nobody said anything about Dunk not getting any formal education. He will, just as Egg is going to get some. Dunk is not teaching him to be a good king or politician, either. And we know that Maekar is going to summon all his sons to court. Dunk is likely to spend some time there, too. Maekar rules twelve years, after all. 

43 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

That's Gary Sue, as there's no way that he'll spend extensive time learning from a maester when he's travelling the roads as a hedge knight. Or that Aegon will be allowed to get that kind of information when travelling around with Duncan, for that matter.

See above. Both Dunk and Egg won't hit the roads for twenty years.

43 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

I don't expect him to remain the same but the basic foundation of his character has been laid. He isn't going to do a 180 degree turn. The things that makes Duncan and Aegon who they are, are very unlikely to change dramatically. Duncan for example is likely to remain chivalrous and honorable and naive, just like he's been acting for the last three novels despite his many experiences.

If that was the case then their story would become a lot boring. George doesn't do that kind of thing. Take Robert. A great and dashing warrior in his youth, a fat and lazy drunkard fifteen years later. Or Jaime. A boy who wanted to be a great knight that became an oathbreaker and kingslayer who tried to murder children. Now he tries to become a different man again. If Bran 2 had set the basic foundation of his character he would be a murderous and ambitious prick, period.

43 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

The idea that the Game of Thrones isn't played or will be played less is laughable. As long as humans draws breath in Planetos, the game will be played. And what we know from Aegon V's rule is that the game was very much played when he ruled.

Was it? At court? There is no hint of that.

43 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

I think that you seriously overestimate the strength of Aegon V's rule. There's a reason why Aegon spend most of his time in armour and had to withdraw most his reforms, and why he couldn't even rule his own House. Aegon wanted to be Jaehaerys the Old KIng or Daeron the Good but he ended up being a new Viserys I or a Aegon III. He may well have done as you proposed and not taken rank into consideration, and then felt the mistake when lacking from a solid base of supporters to help him through the opposition.

Aegon V remained on his throne until the end of his reign. He failed to finish his reforms but you forget that many new laws he made stood and were in effect until Jaehaerys II and Aerys II overturned them. Aegon V wasn't a weak king. He faced rebellions but he put them all down. He even had enough knights to restore order in the West (repeatedly) despite the fact that this isn't exactly a small regions.

The idea that Aegon V faced any opposition on his own council is very unlikely. The man would have named his advisers, and those who opposed him would be gone soon enough. And the idea that the game of thrones was all that relevant during the reign of strong kings isn't very likely. Aerys II and Robert are not representative. 

43 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

I don't doubt that Aegon V meant well but all we know is that for all his ambitions, he failed to bring about what he set out to do. Without knowing exactly what reforms he wanted to do I can't tell if it was worth it, and even less without knowing the price paid for the attempt.

Again, we know that he attempted quite a few of the reforms he wanted to implement. One assumes the reforms he thought he needed dragons for would be pretty big things, resulting in major changes in the makeup of the society. We can only guess at what those were. But the opposition against those wasn't 'the game of thrones'. Those were just lords sabotaging the efforts of their king and lords openly ignoring royal decrees, lords rebelling against the king, and (most likely) lords paramount ignoring all that or at best giving their king lukewarm support.

It should be pretty impossible to get anything done in Westeros if Highgarden and Riverrun isn't with you, Casterly Rock ruled by an ailing old man and the worst lord in the history of the Seven Kingdoms, and relations with Storm's End are not exactly the best.

We don't know whether some great lords actually were against Aegon V's reforms, but if they were - say, the Hightowers or the Arryns - this wouldn't have helped at all.

And we should keep in mind that Aegon V's throne seems to have been always secure. He failed to implement his reforms but he sure as hell kept his throne and power. And he was very successful on the military field, crushing all rebellions against his rule as well as the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion and drawing up the plans how to deal with Maelys and the Band of Nine.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

I want to find out if "Tanselle Too Tall" really wasn't "Too Tall" for Dunk the Lunk. Throw in Rohanne Webber and maybe Old Nan or who ever Brienne descends from and Dunk really must be "better with his sword."

[Lion of the West]

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Dunk is unlikely to become a great scholar or sorcerer, nor a great architect, etc. Barth was all that in addition to being a great politician. You can be a great warrior and a great politician.

So you can, Baelor Breakspear is a testament to that. But I don't see Dunk doing so. And I've never seen anything concrete that Barth was ever a sorcerer.

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And nobody said anything about Dunk not getting any formal education. He will, just as Egg is going to get some. Dunk is not teaching him to be a good king or politician, either. And we know that Maekar is going to summon all his sons to court. Dunk is likely to spend some time there, too. Maekar rules twelve years, after all.

Duncan is going to have his formal duties to fix before studying. He is hardly likely to go around as a student and educate himself to the degree necessary to hold a candle to men like Daeron the Good or Barth, both of whom would have had a childhood and adolscence to stury in making them ready for their future roles as king or septon. Now Duncan may certainly learn a scholarly thing or two, but I don't see it as preordained like you do, and I think that the years that Aegon misses out on his education will certainly come back to bite him.

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 See above. Both Dunk and Egg won't hit the roads for twenty years.

And what will they do when they are not hitting the road? Spend that time in leisure pursuits? Thing is that both of them will have duties as well.

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If that was the case then their story would become a lot boring. George doesn't do that kind of thing. Take Robert. A great and dashing warrior in his youth, a fat and lazy drunkard fifteen years later. Or Jaime. A boy who wanted to be a great knight that became an oathbreaker and kingslayer who tried to murder children. Now he tries to become a different man again. If Bran 2 had set the basic foundation of his character he would be a murderous and ambitious prick, period.

You fail to distinguish between character arch and character traits. In both parts Robert and Jamie are developing according to their basic character traits. Robert's irresponsibility was on full display during Robert's Rebellion and Jaime's idealism was with him from the start and Brienne made it resurface after it was a reaction to this idealism that made Jamie the cynical man he became. But the idealism for Jamie, and irresponsibility for Robert, was always with them. It was always a reaction of their character traits to events and circumstances that happened to them that led their character arches.

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Was it? At court? There is no hint of that.

There are more than a few hints. The Game of Thrones was played fully no matter how much one might like to disguise Aegon's own moves in that very game as something else.

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Aegon V remained on his throne until the end of his reign. He failed to finish his reforms but you forget that many new laws he made stood and were in effect until Jaehaerys II and Aerys II overturned them. Aegon V wasn't a weak king. He faced rebellions but he put them all down. He even had enough knights to restore order in the West (repeatedly) despite the fact that this isn't exactly a small regions.

No. Aegon sat his throne thanks to the Blackfyres having badly misjudged the timing of their invasion and because there were precious few Targaryens around to make a claim on the throne against him. As for reforms he got a trickle through and the fact that it wasn't his full programme but only a trickle of it shows that he did in no way put all the revolts down fully. If he had been fully victorious he would have enforced his programe on his defeated foes as surely and througly as Danaerys enforced her own programe in Slaver's Bay.

If the scenario was, as you Lord Varys seems to suggest, that first Aegon enacted a reform, then a rebellion broke out that Aegon put down, and then Aegon withdrew his reform in spite of his victory, then Aegon is rather easily among the dumbest kings to sit the Iron Throne. But that's not what likely happened. The most probably thing is that Aegon could not put down the rebellions and thus had to comprimisse with the rebels and withdraw his reforms to prevent the rebellions from adding up.

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that Aegon V faced any opposition on his own council is very unlikely. The man would have named his advisers, and those who opposed him would be gone soon enough. And the idea that the game of thrones was all that relevant during the reign of strong kings isn't very likely. Aerys II and Robert are not representative. 

For the first thing, Aegon wasn't a strong king. He was defied time and again and even defied within his own House, and he came close to do a Aenys about the internal Targaryen defiance. In fact towards the end of his life he was so frustrated that he decided that only with dragons would he be able to enact his reforms. That's how unsuccessful he was and what lack of strength he had and it certainly speaks that his reform programe went about nowhere close to where Aegon V wanted it to go.

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Again, we know that he attempted quite a few of the reforms he wanted to implement. One assumes the reforms he thought he needed dragons for would be pretty big things, resulting in major changes in the makeup of the society. We can only guess at what those were. But the opposition against those wasn't 'the game of thrones'. Those were just lords sabotaging the efforts of their king and lords openly ignoring royal decrees, lords rebelling against the king, and (most likely) lords paramount ignoring all that or at best giving their king lukewarm support.

We know he attempted and failed quite a few reforms, yes. We don't assume anything but you make up your own idea that Aegon needed dragons for some grand reforms when in fact he needed dragons for just about any reforms to go through. All that you mention are in fact the Game of Thrones moves as the Game of Thrones is the political game played all across the multitude of the human race.

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It should be pretty impossible to get anything done in Westeros if Highgarden and Riverrun isn't with you, Casterly Rock ruled by an ailing old man and the worst lord in the history of the Seven Kingdoms, and relations with Storm's End are not exactly the best.

Maybe that's why Aegon pretty much failed consistently? He was unable to gather the support of the mighty Houses and his projects collapsed onto themselves. We do know that Aegon tried to get mighty Houses with him by marriage but his children openly defied him and walked away with it. Hence for example Lyonel's rebellion.

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We don't know whether some great lords actually were against Aegon V's reforms, but if they were - say, the Hightowers or the Arryns - this wouldn't have helped at all.

No, it certainly wouldn't.

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And we should keep in mind that Aegon V's throne seems to have been always secure. He failed to implement his reforms but he sure as hell kept his throne and power. And he was very successful on the military field, crushing all rebellions against his rule as well as the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion and drawing up the plans how to deal with Maelys and the Band of Nine.

Aegon's throne was secure due to Blackfyre failing, and presumably a lack of credibility after two major defeats, and a lack of rival Targaryens to make a bid. The failure of Aegon's reform programe certainly shows that he failed to put down all the rebellions and I doubt that Aegon had much to do with the plans regarding the Band of Nine.

[Lord Varys]

11 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

So you can, Baelor Breakspear is a testament to that. But I don't see Dunk doing so. And I've never seen anything concrete that Barth was ever a sorcerer.

He wrote a pretty prominent book on sorcery. You don't write books on topics you don't understand. And the Most Devout doubted Barth's orthodoxy.

11 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

Duncan is going to have his formal duties to fix before studying. He is hardly likely to go around as a student and educate himself to the degree necessary to hold a candle to men like Daeron the Good or Barth, both of whom would have had a childhood and adolscence to stury in making them ready for their future roles as king or septon.

I never said Dunk will become as great a man as Daeron the Good or Septon Barth. Why do you insinuate I do?

11 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

Now Duncan may certainly learn a scholarly thing or two, but I don't see it as preordained like you do, and I think that the years that Aegon misses out on his education will certainly come back to bite him.

I also don't think that Dunk will become a scholar. Why do you insinuate that I do? I said Dunk will become a experienced and competent politician. Everybody living and surviving at the royal court will have to.

11 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

And what will they do when they are not hitting the road? Spend that time in leisure pursuits? Thing is that both of them will have duties as well.

Egg is not likely to get any formal duties during the reign of his uncle. And Aerys I will rule until the year 221 AC. A lot can happen in ten years.

11 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

You fail to distinguish between character arch and character traits. In both parts Robert and Jamie are developing according to their basic character traits. Robert's irresponsibility was on full display during Robert's Rebellion and Jaime's idealism was with him from the start and Brienne made it resurface after it was a reaction to this idealism that made Jamie the cynical man he became. But the idealism for Jamie, and irresponsibility for Robert, was always with them. It was always a reaction of their character traits to events and circumstances that happened to them that led their character arches.

That is just nonsense. 'Irresponsibility' doesn't make you a lazy, incompetent drunkard. And idealism doesn't make you a would-be child murderer nor the murderer of your king. Those people are complex characters, they have more than one trait. Jaime is madly in love with his sister. Robert is deeply hurt by the loss of Lyanna, etc.

11 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

There are more than a few hints. The Game of Thrones was played fully no matter how much one might like to disguise Aegon's own moves in that very game as something else.

The game of thrones is a game for power and influence that is played at court. It is not a game of clumsy rebellions. That is the game of oafs. 

11 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

No. Aegon sat his throne thanks to the Blackfyres having badly misjudged the timing of their invasion and because there were precious few Targaryens around to make a claim on the throne against him.

I don't care why you think Aegon V ended up on throne or remained there. That's not the topic here. But Aegon V was still better and more powerful than all the men that wanted to depose him. He crushed them all. 

11 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

As for reforms he got a trickle through and the fact that it wasn't his full programme but only a trickle of it shows that he did in no way put all the revolts down fully. If he had been fully victorious he would have enforced his programe on his defeated foes as surely and througly as Danaerys enforced her own programe in Slaver's Bay.

What program did Daenerys enforce in Slaver's Bay?

While we don't know what exactly his reforms were you can't judge him correctly. But we do know that he got some of his reforms through despite the rebellions of his lords. And those reforms stood until Jaehaerys II and Aerys II overturned them.

11 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

If the scenario was, as you Lord Varys seems to suggest, that first Aegon enacted a reform, then a rebellion broke out that Aegon put down, and then Aegon withdrew his reform in spite of his victory, then Aegon is rather easily among the dumbest kings to sit the Iron Throne. But that's not what likely happened. The most probably thing is that Aegon could not put down the rebellions and thus had to comprimisse with the rebels and withdraw his reforms to prevent the rebellions from adding up.

The impressions we have is that Aegon V strengthened the rights of the commoners against the lords and the lords sabotaged his efforts on those fields. What caused those rebellions he faced is pretty much unknown. But the Laughing Storm's was put down quickly and decisively.

11 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

For the first thing, Aegon wasn't a strong king. He was defied time and again and even defied within his own House, and he came close to do a Aenys about the internal Targaryen defiance. In fact towards the end of his life he was so frustrated that he decided that only with dragons would he be able to enact his reforms. That's how unsuccessful he was and what lack of strength he had and it certainly speaks that his reform programe went about nowhere close to where Aegon V wanted it to go.

That's just nonsense. Aegon V was a strong king. He allowed his sons to get away with their nonsense. He could have ended all those marriages if he wanted to. Jenny wasn't immortal, and Duncan certainly receptive torture. Jaehaerys and Shaera were still minors when they married, allowing Aegon V to pull off a Tywin easily enough. He chose not to do that because he didn't want to hurt or humiliate his children.

11 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

We know he attempted and failed quite a few reforms, yes. We don't assume anything but you make up your own idea that Aegon needed dragons for some grand reforms when in fact he needed dragons for just about any reforms to go through.

That is just crap, too. Some of those reforms were realized. Those his successors then took back. If you judge Aegon V by his own standards he most likely was unhappy with his reign. But by the rules of the game of thrones he pretty much prevailed. He sat the throne and ruled the Realm, and reaped the rewards that come with being that. And all rebels that rose against him were put down. Aegon V's compromises had to do with his reforms, not so much with his power and kingship.

11 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

All that you mention are in fact the Game of Thrones moves as the Game of Thrones is the political game played all across the multitude of the human race.

That is not how Cersei sees it. And I honestly don't care about what you think the game of thrones is. I go by the definition Cersei gives in AGoT.

11 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

Maybe that's why Aegon pretty much failed consistently? He was unable to gather the support of the mighty Houses and his projects collapsed onto themselves. We do know that Aegon tried to get mighty Houses with him by marriage but his children openly defied him and walked away with it. Hence for example Lyonel's rebellion.

That rebellion had nothing to do with his policies, though. And it was crushed.

If the great houses had been among the open rebels in the later years of Aegon V's reign he would most likely have been killed. Or where do you think would his troops come from if he had to fight against, say, two great houses and he had only gotten lukewarm support from the others?

11 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

No, it certainly wouldn't.

Aegon's throne was secure due to Blackfyre failing, and presumably a lack of credibility after two major defeats, and a lack of rival Targaryens to make a bid. The failure of Aegon's reform programe certainly shows that he failed to put down all the rebellions and I doubt that Aegon had much to do with the plans regarding the Band of Nine.

You show that you don't care about what George has written on the topic you try to discuss. Aegon V did draw up the plans to defeat the Band of Nine. And the only rebellions we know he faced he did put down. If by the time of Summerhall half of the Realm or more had been in open rebellion against the king there wouldn't have been a Jaehaerys II or Aerys II.

[Castellan]

If we saw him in the lead up to Summerhall, we might know what that was all about, and hopefully he would think back on his life and loves a bit, so we'd know how Brienne came about and if Hodor is also descended from him.

[Lion of the West]

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

He wrote a pretty prominent book on sorcery. You don't write books on topics you don't understand. And the Most Devout doubted Barth's orthodoxy.

No, he wrote a book on dragons. He was a friend of the last dragon riding family and there were live dragons to study for his book. And lastly he was slandered to be a sorcerer. At no point was being a sorcerer needed to write a book about dragons that he could study for himself, just like its not necessary to be a sorcerer to write a book about horses if you can talk to riders and study horses for yourself or that you would need to be a seer or oracle to write a book about contemperary history.

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I never said Dunk will become as great a man as Daeron the Good or Septon Barth. Why do you insinuate I do?

Forgive my hyperbole. I just wanted to point out that its highely unlikely that Duncan will learn and entirely new skill set and master that. He'll most likley use and expand the skill set he have in the stories we've seen so far. Fighting skills and a great sense of chivalry.

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I also don't think that Dunk will become a scholar. Why do you insinuate that I do? I said Dunk will become a experienced and competent politician. Everybody living and surviving at the royal court will have to.

Again a hyperbole. But you do seem to insuinate that Duncan will become a man of letters as well as the sword. I think that he will remain a man of the sword even if he learns some letters, he's not going to master them to a degree that he can wield them around as well as his sword.

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Egg is not likely to get any formal duties during the reign of his uncle. And Aerys I will rule until the year 221 AC. A lot can happen in ten years.

Prince Aegon is to young to carry on real responsiblities but when he is introduced he is already entrusted to be a squire for his older brother, and that's a formal responsibility. Not to mention that it seems that by the Third Blackfyre Rebellion Aegon was coming into a public role.

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is just nonsense. 'Irresponsibility' doesn't make you a lazy, incompetent drunkard. And idealism doesn't make you a would-be child murderer nor the murderer of your king. Those people are complex characters, they have more than one trait. Jaime is madly in love with his sister. Robert is deeply hurt by the loss of Lyanna, etc.

Eh, yes. Irresponsibility can totally make you a lazy, incompetent drunkard. Two of the three things are about shirking the royal responsibilities that comes with the throne instead of being hard working and keeping your pleasures to a moderate volume, as the responsibility of being king would suggest. Not to mention that if Robert had been responsible, he would have seen his responsibility in his new marriage instead of longing for what is lost at the expense of this important political match.

And Jaime's transformation is that his idealism is broken by a harsh reality to think that his idealism isn't real or that it can't exist, and then Brienne comes along to make that idealism come to the surface again. I agree that the characters are complex but instead of writing an essay on these characters I took what I think is their most fundamental traits which shapes them to the largest degree.

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The game of thrones is a game for power and influence that is played at court. It is not a game of clumsy rebellions. That is the game of oafs. 

The Game of Thrones is all the things you mentioned, and more.

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't care why you think Aegon V ended up on throne or remained there. That's not the topic here. But Aegon V was still better and more powerful than all the men that wanted to depose him. He crushed them all. 

Its curious that if Aegon crushed them, they got what they wanted and the reforms were withdrawn. If Aegon had been as successful in arms as you indicate then he would simply have not felt frustrated to have attempted the dragon hatching plot, because he would have gotten everything he wanted from them.

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

What program did Daenerys enforce in Slaver's Bay?

Emancipation of the slaves? She got three Ghiscari cities to abolish slavery and only when faced with a dire situation did she have to bend to them and allow them to bring back the slavery.

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

While we don't know what exactly his reforms were you can't judge him correctly. But we do know that he got some of his reforms through despite the rebellions of his lords. And those reforms stood until Jaehaerys II and Aerys II overturned them.

So much is true. I can't say for certain before I have more details about it.

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The impressions we have is that Aegon V strengthened the rights of the commoners against the lords and the lords sabotaged his efforts on those fields. What caused those rebellions he faced is pretty much unknown. But the Laughing Storm's was put down quickly and decisively.

I wouldn't have used the words "put down" more like coming to terms with Lord Baratheon. Else Storm's End would have gotten a much worse deal after the rebellion.

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That's just nonsense. Aegon V was a strong king. He allowed his sons to get away with their nonsense. He could have ended all those marriages if he wanted to. Jenny wasn't immortal, and Duncan certainly receptive torture. Jaehaerys and Shaera were still minors when they married, allowing Aegon V to pull off a Tywin easily enough. He chose not to do that because he didn't want to hurt or humiliate his children.

Aegon couldn't rule his House and all his ambitions for alliances with other Houses fell together due to it. That Aegon was a good king is in my mind beyond a doubt and I would personally do all in my power to support him if I had lived in Westeros under jhis reign. But he wasn't a strong king as the turbulence under his regin indicates.

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is just crap, too. Some of those reforms were realized. Those his successors then took back. If you judge Aegon V by his own standards he most likely was unhappy with his reign. But by the rules of the game of thrones he pretty much prevailed. He sat the throne and ruled the Realm, and reaped the rewards that come with being that. And all rebels that rose against him were put down. Aegon V's compromises had to do with his reforms, not so much with his power and kingship.

No, not crap but a less enamored view of Aegon's efforts. I agree that he got some stuff through and it was a shame that those were later removed although it speaks some of his badly Aegon manages to cement the need for reforms with his successors on the throne. And his programe of reforms were indeed part of his wielding his power which was often opposed and far from always sucessful.

But it will be very interesting to see these rebellions because I have a feeling that Aegon's going to more come to terms with rebels in exchange for pardons and withdraw of reforms, then him standing victorious over their corpses.

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is not how Cersei sees it. And I honestly don't care about what you think the game of thrones is. I go by the definition Cersei gives in AGoT.

You are free to follow Cersei's lead if you so wish.

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That rebellion had nothing to do with his policies, though. And it was crushed.

No, I suppose it wasn't his policies. But his ability to rule his own House.

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If the great houses had been among the open rebels in the later years of Aegon V's reign he would most likely have been killed. Or where do you think would his troops come from if he had to fight against, say, two great houses and he had only gotten lukewarm support from the others?

I didn't think that the Great Houses rose against him.

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You show that you don't care about what George has written on the topic you try to discuss. Aegon V did draw up the plans to defeat the Band of Nine. And the only rebellions we know he faced he did put down. If by the time of Summerhall half of the Realm or more had been in open rebellion against the king there wouldn't have been a Jaehaerys II or Aerys II.

Not true at all, in either case. I learn from you to read between the lines and Aegon V made preperations to ensure the Band of Nine didn't land in Westeros, but he didn't to my knowledge forumulate a plan to invade the Stepstones which was what made the Iron Throne move into action.

Nor do I think that the whole realm rose at once. I would think ot was more of individual or small groups of lords who rose. More like the Peake Uprising then the Blackfyre Rebellion.

[Lord Varys]

35 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

No, he wrote a book on dragons. He was a friend of the last dragon riding family and there were live dragons to study for his book. And lastly he was slandered to be a sorcerer. At no point was being a sorcerer needed to write a book about dragons that he could study for himself, just like its not necessary to be a sorcerer to write a book about horses if you can talk to riders and study horses for yourself or that you would need to be a seer or oracle to write a book about contemperary history.

You know that the title of Barth's most famous work is actually Dragons, Wyrms, and Wyverns: Their Unnatural History. It is not just a book about dragons. And Barth has written many other texts on other topics relating to the higher mysteries. That is mentioned in extenso in TWoIaF.

35 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

Forgive my hyperbole. I just wanted to point out that its highely unlikely that Duncan will learn and entirely new skill set and master that. He'll most likley use and expand the skill set he have in the stories we've seen so far. Fighting skills and a great sense of chivalry.

Then he would suck as a Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

35 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

Again a hyperbole. But you do seem to insuinate that Duncan will become a man of letters as well as the sword. I think that he will remain a man of the sword even if he learns some letters, he's not going to master them to a degree that he can wield them around as well as his sword.

If he can't properly read and not understand complex issues Egg should have made him his food taster, not suffer him to be the Lord Commander of his Kingsguard and sit on his council.

35 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

Prince Aegon is to young to carry on real responsiblities but when he is introduced he is already entrusted to be a squire for his older brother, and that's a formal responsibility. Not to mention that it seems that by the Third Blackfyre Rebellion Aegon was coming into a public role.

You are aware that the Third Blackfyre is going to happen eight years from TMK, right?

35 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

Eh, yes. Irresponsibility can totally make you a lazy, incompetent drunkard. Two of the three things are about shirking the royal responsibilities that comes with the throne instead of being hard working and keeping your pleasures to a moderate volume, as the responsibility of being king would suggest. Not to mention that if Robert had been responsible, he would have seen his responsibility in his new marriage instead of longing for what is lost at the expense of this important political match.

Well, you also have to enjoy drinking, right? I can be irresponsible and still not be a whoremonger or drunkard.

35 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

The Game of Thrones is all the things you mentioned, and more.

Well, if you think everything connected to politics is the game of thrones then it is a meaningless term.

35 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

Its curious that if Aegon crushed them, they got what they wanted and the reforms were withdrawn. If Aegon had been as successful in arms as you indicate then he would simply have not felt frustrated to have attempted the dragon hatching plot, because he would have gotten everything he wanted from them.

You seem to have been a strange idea of reforms. Aegon V seems to have tried to change the social reality of the land he was ruling. That can't be done by issuing decrees or making laws. You need the instruments to actually ensure that the new rules you are making are obeyed. 

I'm sure Aegon V had to make concessions to some lords during some of the crises he faced, but I doubt he formally took back all that many decrees or laws. 

There certainly would have been things he couldn't realize, the reforms he thought he needed the dragons for. But I imagine those had to do with destroying the rights and privileges of the noble class in general.

35 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

Emancipation of the slaves? She got three Ghiscari cities to abolish slavery and only when faced with a dire situation did she have to bend to them and allow them to bring back the slavery.

Slavery was never really gone in either Astapor or Yunkai. And Yunkai Daenerys actually never even conquered.

35 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

I wouldn't have used the words "put down" more like coming to terms with Lord Baratheon. Else Storm's End would have gotten a much worse deal after the rebellion.

Well, Lyonel, Egg, and Dunk were actually friends. They apparently successfully resolved the entire matter peacefully after the original hostilities. But it is quite clear that Lord Lyonel's actual rebellion was crushed. Else Aegon V would have been deposed or killed.

The way things went Aegon V must have defeated Lyonel in battle and then they either agreed to this trial-by-combat after Lyonel was presented to Aegon V as a captive (because Egg actually acknowledged that he and his son had wronged Lord Lyonel) or they agreed upon that trial during a parley after the battle.

35 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

Aegon couldn't rule his House and all his ambitions for alliances with other Houses fell together due to it. That Aegon was a good king is in my mind beyond a doubt and I would personally do all in my power to support him if I had lived in Westeros under jhis reign. But he wasn't a strong king as the turbulence under his regin indicates.

The ability to rule or not rule your own family has nothing to do with you being a good or strong king or not. Sure, if your family turns against you your rule is not likely all that strong, and it can be seen as a weakness if you children do what they want. But Aegon V actually overcame all that. His children married the people they wanted to marry, they faced the problems coming from that and overcame them, and then they lived happily ever after. Those crises took place around the year 240 AC, early on in Aegon's reign.

His sons actually helped him later on to crush real rebellions.

35 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

But it will be very interesting to see these rebellions because I have a feeling that Aegon's going to more come to terms with rebels in exchange for pardons and withdraw of reforms, then him standing victorious over their corpses.

The rebellions we know he faced indicate that many of those rebellions ended with the deaths of those rebellions. And we don't know yet what Dunk did to Lyonel Baratheon. He may have taken his hand or his foot, or he might have dealt him wounds from which the man died a few years later. 

35 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

I didn't think that the Great Houses rose against him.

One or two certainly would have. The idea that the Tyrells or the Tullys didn't rebel against him at one point is actually pretty unlikely. And if no great lord was one of his chief enemies leading the opposition against his reforms that opposition wouldn't have had any many teeth as it apparently had. 

Now, I don't think that such a great lord would have (often) led a violent rebellion against the king, but he could have sabotaged his efforts in a number of other ways.

35 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

Not true at all, in either case. I learn from you to read between the lines and Aegon V made preperations to ensure the Band of Nine didn't land in Westeros, but he didn't to my knowledge forumulate a plan to invade the Stepstones which was what made the Iron Throne move into action.

Then reread your stuff. That's actually what it says in the book.

Quote

In 258 AC on Essos, another challenge rose to Aegon’s reign, when nine outlaws, exiles, pirates, and sellsword captains met in the Disputed Lands beneath the Tree of Crowns to form an unholy alliance. The Band of Nine swore their oath of mutual aid and support in carving out kingdoms for each of their members. Amongst them was the last Blackfyre, Maelys the Monstrous, who had command of the Golden Company, and the kingdom they pledged to win for him was the Seven Kingdoms. Prince Duncan, when told of the pact, famously remarked that crowns were being sold nine a penny; thereafter the Band of Nine became known as the Ninepenny Kings in Westeros. It was thought at first that the Free Cities of Essos would surely bring their power against them and put an end to their pretensions, but nonetheless preparations were made, should Maelys and his allies turn on the Seven Kingdoms. But there was no great urgency to them, and King Aegon remained intent on his reign.

[...]

Jaehaerys had known that the Band of Nine meant to win the Seven Kingdoms for Maelys the Monstrous, who had declared himself King Maelys I Blackfyre, but like his father, Aegon, Jaehaerys had hoped the alliance of rogues would founder in Essos, or fall at the hands of some alliance amongst the Free Cities. Now the moment was at hand, and King Aegon V was gone, as was the Prince of Dragonflies. Prince Daeron, that splendid knight, had died years before, leaving only Jaehaerys, the least martial of Aegon’s three sons.
The new king was four-and-thirty years of age as he ascended the Iron Throne. No one would have called him formidable. Unlike his brothers, Jaehaerys II Targaryen was thin and scrawny, and had battled various ailments all his life. Yet he did not lack for courage, or intelligence. Drawing on his father’s plans, His Grace put aside his grief, called his lords bannermen, and resolved to meet the Ninepenny Kings upon the Stepstones, choosing to take the war to them rather than awaiting their landing on the shores of the Seven Kingdoms.

It makes clear that Aegon V had made plans how to deal with the Band of Nine, and that Jaehaerys II draw on those plans when he dealt with them.

It also makes clear that Duncan and Daeron had become pillars of their father's reign later in life. What transpired in their youth apparently had little significance in the 250s. Duncan and Daeron both seem to have commanded armies in their father's name, and had either of them lived they most likely would have served Jaehaerys II as faithfully as they did serve Aegon V.

35 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

Nor do I think that the whole realm rose at once. I would think ot was more of individual or small groups of lords who rose. More like the Peake Uprising then the Blackfyre Rebellion.

Such rebellions are likely to have been there, too, but this broad movement against the reforms must have been larger. A local lord rebelling can't have a strong impact on how a law or decree is seen elsewhere in the Realm.

[Lion of the West]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You know that the title of Barth's most famous work is actually Dragons, Wyrms, and Wyverns: Their Unnatural History. It is not just a book about dragons. And Barth has written many other texts on other topics relating to the higher mysteries. That is mentioned in extenso in TWoIaF.

What is it if not a book about dragons? I don't deny that there might be essential magical information regarding the hatching and taming of dragons but I don't think that its this Necromonicon of hidden secrets. And how much of is misinformation writen to be spread to non-Targaryens about dragons is something I don't even dare to think about.

And then I must pray for a list of these works or at least of a quote where it stated that he has writen these kind of things and that he has practiced magic.I can't recall it and neither can I find it in the parts regarding Jaehaerys I in the world book.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Then he would suck as a Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

Not really. The Lord Commander needs to be utterly loyal, to be watchful for attacks against the king at all times and possibly skilled to lead the king's armies. The king has several other officials to handle tasks that requires a mastery of letters.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If he can't properly read and not understand complex issues Egg should have made him his food taster, not suffer him to be the Lord Commander of his Kingsguard and sit on his council.

Not really. Reading and understanding complex issues is a task for a Hand or a Master of Laws or a Master of Coin. A Kingsguard or a Lord Commander of the KIngsguard has no disadvantage that I can see from not being able to read or to be as simple minded as to think that protecting and serving the king as the whole of his life.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You are aware that the Third Blackfyre is going to happen eight years from TMK, right?

I am aware. That leaves Duncan some eight years on the road before that part might be less likely to happe and Aegon comes into his own. And that is something which I very much look forward to see.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, you also have to enjoy drinking, right? I can be irresponsible and still not be a whoremonger or drunkard.

Of course you can. But you can also be these things, and partake in your pleasures at the expense of your obligations, and be irresponsible. A responsible king would take care of duties and obligations first and then use his spare time to indulge his pleasures.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, if you think everything connected to politics is the game of thrones then it is a meaningless term.

Its really nothing more than a fancy name for the political game as far as I see it.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You seem to have been a strange idea of reforms. Aegon V seems to have tried to change the social reality of the land he was ruling. That can't be done by issuing decrees or making laws. You need the instruments to actually ensure that the new rules you are making are obeyed. 

So either Aegon is a fool for not being able to follow through or his laws were just ignored or he couldn't do anything about it? I'm not sure what you're getting at.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm sure Aegon V had to make concessions to some lords during some of the crises he faced, but I doubt he formally took back all that many decrees or laws.

Well, maybe we should just leave it at that I think he took back more stuff than he could keep standing.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There certainly would have been things he couldn't realize, the reforms he thought he needed the dragons for. But I imagine those had to do with destroying the rights and privileges of the noble class in general.

Possible but I think he was more about getting through much of any reforms. But I know you disagree.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Slavery was never really gone in either Astapor or Yunkai. And Yunkai Daenerys actually never even conquered.

I'm pretty sure that Danaerys abolished slavery entirely in those cities she took or forced to kneel and that her whole goal than there was to destroy slavery.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, Lyonel, Egg, and Dunk were actually friends. They apparently successfully resolved the entire matter peacefully after the original hostilities. But it is quite clear that Lord Lyonel's actual rebellion was crushed. Else Aegon V would have been deposed or killed.

I agree mostly but Lyonel never claimed the Iron Throne, just like several Greyjoys never did, and thus it was never about deposing Aegon V from the Iron Throne, but to break away from it.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The way things went Aegon V must have defeated Lyonel in battle and then they either agreed to this trial-by-combat after Lyonel was presented to Aegon V as a captive (because Egg actually acknowledged that he and his son had wronged Lord Lyonel) or they agreed upon that trial during a parley after the battle.

Couldn't have been a trial by combat after a Baratheon defeat due to that would have been the height of fooly to go forth with such an idea to an already defeated enemy. More like it, it was like between Eustace Osgrey and Rohanne Webber where there was a contest of champions before a raid into Osgrey lands could be launched which would have cost many innocents their lives. So I would assume that the royal army stood before the rebel one, and in order to spare lives Aegon offered Lord Baratheon a single combat, and Lyonel took it since he would presumably be very much outnumbered in the battle.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The ability to rule or not rule your own family has nothing to do with you being a good or strong king or not. Sure, if your family turns against you your rule is not likely all that strong, and it can be seen as a weakness if you children do what they want. But Aegon V actually overcame all that. His children married the people they wanted to marry, they faced the problems coming from that and overcame them, and then they lived happily ever after. Those crises took place around the year 240 AC, early on in Aegon's reign.

To start with perhaps I used the wrong English term. I didn't need that you need to boss your family around or force them to always defer to you or be a tyrant, in fact I think that Aegon V's management of his House would be preferential to outright tyranny. But you need to make sure everyone's one the same page that we as a family need to help each other and step up for our House. And when Aegon wanted to go with his social reform plan, I think its a mark against him that he couldn't get his children to come along with him and so give up some of their personal choice for the benefit of their House.

I did a check on the wiki for Aegon's children and the way I see it is that if all things had gone well, Aegon V would have ties with Storm's End, Highgarden and Riverrun and the Redwynes. That would make for a formidable power block for Aegon V to rely on, possible giving him the strongest power base for a Targaryen king since the Dance of the Dragons. Instead he got Baratheon in revolt and Tully and Tyrell "angered", whatever that might mean in practice.

But you are right in that these events took place fairly early on, so maybe I'm overblowing it? "Dunk and Egg" stories or "Fire and Blood" will likely tell.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

His sons actually helped him later on to crush real rebellions.

Personally, yes, but they didn't bring in the strong family ties to other powerful House that might have prevented these rebellions from breaking out in the first place.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The rebellions we know he faced indicate that many of those rebellions ended with the deaths of those rebellions. And we don't know yet what Dunk did to Lyonel Baratheon. He may have taken his hand or his foot, or he might have dealt him wounds from which the man died a few years later. 

Maybe, but I'll stick with my guns until we get more from GRRM.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

One or two certainly would have. The idea that the Tyrells or the Tullys didn't rebel against him at one point is actually pretty unlikely. And if no great lord was one of his chief enemies leading the opposition against his reforms that opposition wouldn't have had any many teeth as it apparently had. 

True enough.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Now, I don't think that such a great lord would have (often) led a violent rebellion against the king, but he could have sabotaged his efforts in a number of other ways.

I agree entirely, and I am starting to think that maybe ignoring Aegon's reform with the approval of their Lords Paramount may have been the preferential treatment for unwelcome reforms by the king.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Then reread your stuff. That's actually what it says in the book.

I see, and I see that you are wrong. Its rather clear to me that Aegon V's plan was to face the enemy in Westeros, hence the "choosing to take the war to them rather than awaiting their landing on the shores of the Seven Kingdoms." To me it looks like Aegon V had a plan, Jaehaerys II took some elements but decided to met the enemy in the Stepstones rather than wait for them to come to Westeros, as the original plan had called for.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It makes clear that Aegon V had made plans how to deal with the Band of Nine, and that Jaehaerys II draw on those plans when he dealt with them.

See above.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It also makes clear that Duncan and Daeron had become pillars of their father's reign later in life. What transpired in their youth apparently had little significance in the 250s. Duncan and Daeron both seem to have commanded armies in their father's name, and had either of them lived they most likely would have served Jaehaerys II as faithfully as they did serve Aegon V.

Yes, I would have thought so to. They seem to have had a kind disposition to each other, if also being pretty willful. I'm not suprised that a good natured person like Aegon V could raise a good natured family.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Such rebellions are likely to have been there, too, but this broad movement against the reforms must have been larger. A local lord rebelling can't have a strong impact on how a law or decree is seen elsewhere in the Realm.

Depends on. If crushing the rebellion would have been time consuming the risk is always that it can inspire others to follow with the rebels. And maybe that was the problem? Crushing the rebellions would have demanded the death of many innnocents and so Aegon V took the merciful path to come to terms with the rebels instead? Unlikely but possible.

[Lord Varys]

10 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

What is it if not a book about dragons? I don't deny that there might be essential magical information regarding the hatching and taming of dragons but I don't think that its this Necromonicon of hidden secrets. And how much of is misinformation writen to be spread to non-Targaryens about dragons is something I don't even dare to think about.

Just check how often Septon Barth comes up in TWoIaF. Yandel cites him on a variety of topics many of which are connected to magic.

10 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

Not really. The Lord Commander needs to be utterly loyal, to be watchful for attacks against the king at all times and possibly skilled to lead the king's armies. The king has several other officials to handle tasks that requires a mastery of letters.

The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard is a member of the Small Council. He has a voice in the governance of the Realm, and discusses politics with his peers and king. He can't be a bad politician or administrator. If he is, the king has chosen the wrong Lord Commander.

10 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

Not really. Reading and understanding complex issues is a task for a Hand or a Master of Laws or a Master of Coin. A Kingsguard or a Lord Commander of the KIngsguard has no disadvantage that I can see from not being able to read or to be as simple minded as to think that protecting and serving the king as the whole of his life.

See above. The Lord Commander doesn't to a lot of protecting by himself, especially not a cripple or old man.

10 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

I am aware. That leaves Duncan some eight years on the road before that part might be less likely to happe and Aegon comes into his own. And that is something which I very much look forward to see.

Reread your stuff. The plan isn't to remain on the road for a decade. Dunk and Egg plan to travel the world for 1-2 years, but not much longer. Perhaps things turn out differently and they are going to add some years but I don't think they will be on the road for eight years. What would be the point of that?

10 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

Its really nothing more than a fancy name for the political game as far as I see it.

Not everybody plays a mortal game there. You win or you die. Lord Connington and Lord Wylde didn't kill each other in that struggle for land they once had. That was politics, too, but not the game of thrones. The game of thrones is high politics, it is what's played at court.

10 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

I agree mostly but Lyonel never claimed the Iron Throne, just like several Greyjoys never did, and thus it was never about deposing Aegon V from the Iron Throne, but to break away from it.

There was a short bloody rebellion, meaning that there was actually some fighting. And if Lyonel had won then there would have been an independent Storm kingdom, or Aegon V would have retaken it some time later.

10 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

Couldn't have been a trial by combat after a Baratheon defeat due to that would have been the height of fooly to go forth with such an idea to an already defeated enemy. More like it, it was like between Eustace Osgrey and Rohanne Webber where there was a contest of champions before a raid into Osgrey lands could be launched which would have cost many innocents their lives. So I would assume that the royal army stood before the rebel one, and in order to spare lives Aegon offered Lord Baratheon a single combat, and Lyonel took it since he would presumably be very much outnumbered in the battle.

That goes contrary to what we know about that rebellion. And it would be another version of TSS. Pretty boring, in you ask me.

And your view of Aegon V not going along with the trial-by-combat idea after the rebellion was already crushed actually shows that you don't really get Egg's character. He would have been aware of the fact that his son had dishonored Lyonel and his daughter, and he would also have understood that he, personally, had also wronged his old friend by sticking to his son in the end, allowing him to have his way.

It would be a testament of his character to accept a trial-by-combat to resolve this issue. I'd not be surprised if he originally intended to fight Lyonel himself and then only relented after Dunk insisted that he do it.

10 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

I did a check on the wiki for Aegon's children and the way I see it is that if all things had gone well, Aegon V would have ties with Storm's End, Highgarden and Riverrun and the Redwynes. That would make for a formidable power block for Aegon V to rely on, possible giving him the strongest power base for a Targaryen king since the Dance of the Dragons. Instead he got Baratheon in revolt and Tully and Tyrell "angered", whatever that might mean in practice.

That wouldn't have been a guarantee that his reforms wouldn't have been challenged. Just that he might have faced less opposition and more support. 

10 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

But you are right in that these events took place fairly early on, so maybe I'm overblowing it? "Dunk and Egg" stories or "Fire and Blood" will likely tell.

The impression the text gives is that Egg's children caused him additional problems, not that the broken betrothals caused any of the rebellions connected to the reforms.

10 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

Personally, yes, but they didn't bring in the strong family ties to other powerful House that might have prevented these rebellions from breaking out in the first place.

If those reforms were indeed taking away traditional powers and privileges from the lords then having the Redwynes, Tullys, Tyrells, and Baratheons on your side wouldn't have made that big of a difference. First, there is the question whether those houses would have approved of his ideas - they most likely wouldn't have been so keen to give up power themselves. Second, there is the fact that there are other great and influential houses in the Realm, too.

It certainly should have helped Aegon V to dissuade unruly lords from rebelling if they had known that they would then face a very powerful royal coalition, but, say, the Arryns or Starks have little reason to fear the Tyrells or Baratheons.

10 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

I agree entirely, and I am starting to think that maybe ignoring Aegon's reform with the approval of their Lords Paramount may have been the preferential treatment for unwelcome reforms by the king.

That is one of the things that's very likely. Another thing is that the lords certainly could have hindered the king's attempts to form some sort of standing army or royal orders of knights (we know that Aegon V's knights repeatedly restored order in the West, perhaps those were a permanent contingent of fighting men) by refusing to help to finance such enterprises.

Aegon V's reign began in winter and he did his best to help the Northmen in that winter. Then came the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion. I doubt Egg had a full treasury all the time throughout his reign.

10 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

I see, and I see that you are wrong. Its rather clear to me that Aegon V's plan was to face the enemy in Westeros, hence the "choosing to take the war to them rather than awaiting their landing on the shores of the Seven Kingdoms." To me it looks like Aegon V had a plan, Jaehaerys II took some elements but decided to met the enemy in the Stepstones rather than wait for them to come to Westeros, as the original plan had called for.

That is nonsense. Egg made plans to meet the Band of Nine in Essos should the Free Cities not deal with them, and Jaehaerys II then executed those plans. They were not making plans to fight them on Westerosi soil. How could they? They would have no idea where they would land if they came.

10 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

Depends on. If crushing the rebellion would have been time consuming the risk is always that it can inspire others to follow with the rebels. And maybe that was the problem? Crushing the rebellions would have demanded the death of many innnocents and so Aegon V took the merciful path to come to terms with the rebels instead? Unlikely but possible.

While we don't know anything on those rebellions we basically have no idea what went on there. But we do know that Aegon V and his sons (one of which died in battle) were forced to fight pretty often. 

[Fire Eater]

Summerhall, to find out what really happened there. 

[Lion of the West]

On 2017-05-27 at 8:14 PM, Lord Varys said:

Just check how often Septon Barth comes up in TWoIaF. Yandel cites him on a variety of topics many of which are connected to magic.

So the good septon Barth is. Yet knowing these things makes Barth a man with an interest in magic, it don't mean that he per necessity cast spells and is thus a sorcerer, just like the Maegi who kills Drogo is not per necessity versed in all manner of intellectual pursuits regarding magic, despite being able to cast spells. Thus while its certainly possible that Barth was a sorcerer there's little trace of him actually using magic for any reason. I can for example be greatly interested in warfare but that don't make me a soldier.

On 2017-05-27 at 8:14 PM, Lord Varys said:

The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard is a member of the Small Council. He has a voice in the governance of the Realm, and discusses politics with his peers and king. He can't be a bad politician or administrator. If he is, the king has chosen the wrong Lord Commander.

Yes he can and he often is a bad politician because that's not his job. In fact I dare say that being a sucky politician is a boon for a Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. Ryam Redwyne is considered an excellent knight and great commander of the Kingsguard, but a sucky Hand of the King. While people like Criston Cole was an, at least moderately, accomplished politician but a really sucky Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. And the issue is that the Kingsguard exists to protect the king and an apolitical approach is what prevents it from turning into a Praetorian Guard-like institution.

And I dare say that you are wrong. If the king is betrayed by his Kingsguard he has picked the wrong man. If the Kingsguard does what its supposed to do and protects the king, then the right men are in office.

On 2017-05-27 at 8:14 PM, Lord Varys said:

See above. The Lord Commander doesn't to a lot of protecting by himself, especially not a cripple or old man.

He still needs to know what being a Kingsguard is all about so that he can provde a lead for the rest of them and inspire them. Not to mention that it seems that the Kingsguard also seems to act as royal military captains and thus its pretty clear that the Kingsguard has a martial direction and not a political one.

On 2017-05-27 at 8:14 PM, Lord Varys said:

Reread your stuff. The plan isn't to remain on the road for a decade. Dunk and Egg plan to travel the world for 1-2 years, but not much longer. Perhaps things turn out differently and they are going to add some years but I don't think they will be on the road for eight years. What would be the point of that?

The point would be that Aegon would grow up, not just spend a year or two slumming it out with Duncan, to be very connected with the smallfolk and have a much wider experience with his kingdom than most of the recent Targaryen kings, and thus see the need or at least have the desire for his reforms. If Aegon is on the road for just a year or two and spends the rest of the time at court or ina cozy castle then its pretty clear that Dunk and Egg will be about political intrigues and not this duo braving the roads of Westeros. And I dare say that you are wrong in that courtly intrigues are the main focus for Dunk and Egg, as it would be if they spend most of their lives with a royal, or noble, Targaryen household in a castle.

On 2017-05-27 at 8:14 PM, Lord Varys said:

Not everybody plays a mortal game there. You win or you die. Lord Connington and Lord Wylde didn't kill each other in that struggle for land they once had. That was politics, too, but not the game of thrones. The game of thrones is high politics, it is what's played at court.

The Game of Thrones is played whereever men draw breath. And if you want to follow Cersei's understanding something complex you are free to do so.

On 2017-05-27 at 8:14 PM, Lord Varys said:

There was a short bloody rebellion, meaning that there was actually some fighting. And if Lyonel had won then there would have been an independent Storm kingdom, or Aegon V would have retaken it some time later.

Nothing say that skirmishes, raids and counters can't be bloody enough to get a pretty high body count. If Lyonel had won this war it would have been a the Ironmen rebellions. It may have survived for a most a generation before the combined might of the realm brings it back under the Iron Throne. The issue for the Stormlands is that they don't have an ocean to shield them from the realm's armies.

On 2017-05-27 at 8:14 PM, Lord Varys said:

That goes contrary to what we know about that rebellion. And it would be another version of TSS. Pretty boring, in you ask me.

Well the entire Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion is essentially a modified re-run of the TSS where Duncan kills the king to end the war, and then its over. Just like Eustace wanted him to kill Lady Webber to, in his mind, end the feud right there and then.

On 2017-05-27 at 8:14 PM, Lord Varys said:

And your view of Aegon V not going along with the trial-by-combat idea after the rebellion was already crushed actually shows that you don't really get Egg's character. He would have been aware of the fact that his son had dishonored Lyonel and his daughter, and he would also have understood that he, personally, had also wronged his old friend by sticking to his son in the end, allowing him to have his way.

Perhaps. Its entriely possible that Aegon the King will not be the same as Aegon the Squire.

On 2017-05-27 at 8:14 PM, Lord Varys said:

It would be a testament of his character to accept a trial-by-combat to resolve this issue. I'd not be surprised if he originally intended to fight Lyonel himself and then only relented after Dunk insisted that he do it.

Well, I suppose that's possible although I would have thought he would have learnt from his uncle Baelor's mistakes.

On 2017-05-27 at 8:14 PM, Lord Varys said:

That wouldn't have been a guarantee that his reforms wouldn't have been challenged. Just that he might have faced less opposition and more support. 

It would almost certainly have guaranteed that the Stormlands went through with them and a lot more likelyhood of the Reach and Riverlands going through as well despite these regions' history of factionalism. As well as having more power to enforce his will on unwilling bannermen and so on. Not a guarantee but with such an added force to his cause everything would have played out very differently.

On 2017-05-27 at 8:14 PM, Lord Varys said:

The impression the text gives is that Egg's children caused him additional problems, not that the broken betrothals caused any of the rebellions connected to the reforms.

Well, yes, they only caused him indirect problems as seen above.

On 2017-05-27 at 8:14 PM, Lord Varys said:

If those reforms were indeed taking away traditional powers and privileges from the lords then having the Redwynes, Tullys, Tyrells, and Baratheons on your side wouldn't have made that big of a difference. First, there is the question whether those houses would have approved of his ideas - they most likely wouldn't have been so keen to give up power themselves. Second, there is the fact that there are other great and influential houses in the Realm, too.

If Aegon was going so far then Aegon would surely have been the most foolish king this side of the Doom. Given the lack of royal power and the strength of the lords, it would be like going from Fulk Nerra to the Sun King within a single life time. Just no reason to even think about this kind of conflict between the crown and the lords and hope for the crown to win out.

On 2017-05-27 at 8:14 PM, Lord Varys said:

It certainly should have helped Aegon V to dissuade unruly lords from rebelling if they had known that they would then face a very powerful royal coalition, but, say, the Arryns or Starks have little reason to fear the Tyrells or Baratheons.

True enough.

On 2017-05-27 at 8:14 PM, Lord Varys said:

That is one of the things that's very likely. Another thing is that the lords certainly could have hindered the king's attempts to form some sort of standing army or royal orders of knights (we know that Aegon V's knights repeatedly restored order in the West, perhaps those were a permanent contingent of fighting men) by refusing to help to finance such enterprises.

Very likely although I'm pretty sure that "Aegon's knights" were either household troops or Crownland lords sent into the West to clear things up for Tytos.

On 2017-05-27 at 8:14 PM, Lord Varys said:

Aegon V's reign began in winter and he did his best to help the Northmen in that winter. Then came the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion. I doubt Egg had a full treasury all the time throughout his reign.

After the winter comes the summer and with that harvest, trade and wealth. Unless Aegon was extra spending then he would have pretty much the same income as other Targaryen kings.

On 2017-05-27 at 8:14 PM, Lord Varys said:

That is nonsense. Egg made plans to meet the Band of Nine in Essos should the Free Cities not deal with them, and Jaehaerys II then executed those plans. They were not making plans to fight them on Westerosi soil. How could they? They would have no idea where they would land if they came.

Not really. There's no indication that Aegon had planned a war that happened after his death and was triggered by events that had not taken place while he was alive. And there are always ways to make defensive preparations as many armies have done across history. They are usually proficient in seeing where an invader could hope to get their logistics through and so on, and thus make ready. Its really not all impossible.

On 2017-05-27 at 8:14 PM, Lord Varys said:

While we don't know anything on those rebellions we basically have no idea what went on there. But we do know that Aegon V and his sons (one of which died in battle) were forced to fight pretty often. 

So is clear, and thus I see the risk of Aegon getting swamped in minor rebellions that could eventually find common ground with each other against the king. Hence that Aegon would have needed to put them down by sword or quill as fast as he could.

[Lord Varys]

14 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

So the good septon Barth is. Yet knowing these things makes Barth a man with an interest in magic, it don't mean that he per necessity cast spells and is thus a sorcerer, just like the Maegi who kills Drogo is not per necessity versed in all manner of intellectual pursuits regarding magic, despite being able to cast spells. Thus while its certainly possible that Barth was a sorcerer there's little trace of him actually using magic for any reason. I can for example be greatly interested in warfare but that don't make me a soldier.

It doesn't seem to be the case that a theoretical interest in magic does not quickly get practical. Luwin tried spells, too, you know, back in the Citadel. 

14 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

Yes he can and he often is a bad politician because that's not his job. In fact I dare say that being a sucky politician is a boon for a Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. Ryam Redwyne is considered an excellent knight and great commander of the Kingsguard, but a sucky Hand of the King. While people like Criston Cole was an, at least moderately, accomplished politician but a really sucky Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. And the issue is that the Kingsguard exists to protect the king and an apolitical approach is what prevents it from turning into a Praetorian Guard-like institution.

Where is it said that Ryam Redwyne was a good Lord Commander of the Kingsguard? He was a great knight, but that isn't the same. And being the Hand isn't the same as the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

14 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

And I dare say that you are wrong. If the king is betrayed by his Kingsguard he has picked the wrong man. If the Kingsguard does what its supposed to do and protects the king, then the right men are in office.

We are not talking about the Kingsguard. We are talking about the Lord Commander as a politician. Which he is. It is not me who made him a member of the Small Council. George did. And if he is moron and a fool he should have no place there.

14 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

He still needs to know what being a Kingsguard is all about so that he can provde a lead for the rest of them and inspire them. Not to mention that it seems that the Kingsguard also seems to act as royal military captains and thus its pretty clear that the Kingsguard has a martial direction and not a political one.

That is nonsense. He has a permanent seat on the Small Council. The Lord Commander has a political office.

14 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

The point would be that Aegon would grow up, not just spend a year or two slumming it out with Duncan, to be very connected with the smallfolk and have a much wider experience with his kingdom than most of the recent Targaryen kings, and thus see the need or at least have the desire for his reforms. If Aegon is on the road for just a year or two and spends the rest of the time at court or ina cozy castle then its pretty clear that Dunk and Egg will be about political intrigues and not this duo braving the roads of Westeros. And I dare say that you are wrong in that courtly intrigues are the main focus for Dunk and Egg, as it would be if they spend most of their lives with a royal, or noble, Targaryen household in a castle.

I never said that they would be the main focus of Dunk & Egg. I said they will have to forced to deal with that as kings and while they lived at Maekar's court - and at least Egg lived there. Egg certainly is smart enough to get a completely different picture of the world just by spending 1-2 (or 3-4) years on the road. Those are his formative years. Also keep in mind that he is not likely going to become a peasant lover in Essos. 

14 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

Nothing say that skirmishes, raids and counters can't be bloody enough to get a pretty high body count. If Lyonel had won this war it would have been a the Ironmen rebellions. It may have survived for a most a generation before the combined might of the realm brings it back under the Iron Throne. The issue for the Stormlands is that they don't have an ocean to shield them from the realm's armies.

Read the text:

Quote

A short, bloody rebellion ensued, ending only when Ser Duncan of the Kingsguard defeated Lord Lyonel in single combat, and King Aegon gave his solemn word that his youngest daughter, Rhaelle, would wed Lord Lyonel’s heir.

There is no talk about skirmishes, raids, and counters. There is talk about a bloody rebellion, and that means there was a war.

14 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

Well the entire Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion is essentially a modified re-run of the TSS where Duncan kills the king to end the war, and then its over. Just like Eustace wanted him to kill Lady Webber to, in his mind, end the feud right there and then.

We don't even know whether the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion will be the topic of a Dunk & Egg story. But even if it was Daemon III died in battle, not in single combat.

14 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

Well, I suppose that's possible although I would have thought he would have learnt from his uncle Baelor's mistakes.

It is more likely that it is not custom that a king fight in a trial-by-combat himself. He is the supreme judge and above the law. He cannot do anything wrong, and anybody challenging him has to deal with his men, not the king himself.

14 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

It would almost certainly have guaranteed that the Stormlands went through with them and a lot more likelyhood of the Reach and Riverlands going through as well despite these regions' history of factionalism. As well as having more power to enforce his will on unwilling bannermen and so on. Not a guarantee but with such an added force to his cause everything would have played out very differently.

The Stormlands are far too close to the Iron Throne to be able to ignore Aegon's decree. He could sent his knights there even better than into the West. And the smallfolk there could complain to the king much better than, say, in the Vale, the southern Reach, the West, or Dorne.

14 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

If Aegon was going so far then Aegon would surely have been the most foolish king this side of the Doom. Given the lack of royal power and the strength of the lords, it would be like going from Fulk Nerra to the Sun King within a single life time. Just no reason to even think about this kind of conflict between the crown and the lords and hope for the crown to win out.

You don't seem to be reading the text but just arguing from memory. This is what Yandel writes on the reforms:

Quote

Though beloved by the smallfolk, King Aegon made many enemies amongst the lords of the realm, whose powers he wished to curtail. He enacted numerous reforms and granted rights and protections to the commons that they had never known before, but each of these measures provoked fierce opposition and sometimes open defiance amongst the lords. The most outspoken of his foes went so far as to denounce Aegon V as a “bloody-handed tyrant intent on depriving us of our gods-given rights and liberties.”

That makes it perfectly clear that Aegon V weakened the position of the lords in relation to the smallfolk. He took certain privileges and powers from them and strengthened the rights of the commons. While he couldn't push through all his reforms he did enact some, even against the opposition of the lords.

And a 'bloody-handed tyrant' most likely took more than few heads of noble malcontents daring to challenge his rule. Aegon V wasn't a nice a weak king. If you challenged him you faced him in battle.

14 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

Very likely although I'm pretty sure that "Aegon's knights" were either household troops or Crownland lords sent into the West to clear things up for Tytos.

Could also be. Difficult to say. But the phrase is odd. Aerys I's knights didn't crush the Second Blackfyre Rebellion. And army led by Lord Bloodraven and the lords from the Crownlands and the Riverlands did. There may be an important difference there. If any of Aegon V's stood then he must have had the means to ensure that his decrees and laws were obeyed.

14 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

After the winter comes the summer and with that harvest, trade and wealth. Unless Aegon was extra spending then he would have pretty much the same income as other Targaryen kings.

Well, wars are costly. And, no, the income is not necessarily constant. It depends on a lot of factors. Like, how good the harvest actually is.

14 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

Not really. There's no indication that Aegon had planned a war that happened after his death and was triggered by events that had not taken place while he was alive. And there are always ways to make defensive preparations as many armies have done across history. They are usually proficient in seeing where an invader could hope to get their logistics through and so on, and thus make ready. Its really not all impossible.

That is just silly. Do you think Aegon V intended to build a wall to guard his entire eastern coast against the Band of Nine? The man isn't Trump. Preparing for something like that would just help the enemy, in fact. Because if they have good intelligence they will not land where Aegon V is marshaling his troops but elsewhere, and then they are very likely to win the war. 

14 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

So is clear, and thus I see the risk of Aegon getting swamped in minor rebellions that could eventually find common ground with each other against the king. Hence that Aegon would have needed to put them down by sword or quill as fast as he could.

There is no hint that he compromised with rebels who rose against him. That would set a very bad precedent (that you can blackmail the king if you use violence). Those who just opposed his reforms non-violently may have gotten a compromise.

[PrinceHenryris]

How one of his shields ended up in the armory at Evenfall Hall.

[Lion of the West]

On 2017-06-02 at 0:05 PM, Lord Varys said:

It doesn't seem to be the case that a theoretical interest in magic does not quickly get practical. Luwin tried spells, too, you know, back in the Citadel.

People experimenting in their youth proves nothing about their long standing disposition to a subject.

Quote

 Where is it said that Ryam Redwyne was a good Lord Commander of the Kingsguard? He was a great knight, but that isn't the same. And being the Hand isn't the same as the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

At every mentioning of Ryam Redwyne in his capacity of the Kingsguard he is held up as a legend and a great example for men to follow. While at the same time every mentioning of him as a Hand tells of his failure. Why that be so if he was also a failure as a Lord Commander? The reason for this is that being a great knight is what being the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard is all about. And when we consider that Jaehaerys the Old King appointed Ryam to serve as Hand of the King it speaks well of just how good Ryam was as a Lord Commander, and that he was not a politician since he was removed after a year or so in office. If he had been a failure of a Lord Commander then a wise king like Jaehaerys would not have picked him for the responsibility of being Hand.

Quote

We are not talking about the Kingsguard. We are talking about the Lord Commander as a politician. Which he is. It is not me who made him a member of the Small Council. George did. And if he is moron and a fool he should have no place there.

Which is not true at all. The Lord Commander's primary responsibility is to act as leader of a bodyguard and as a military commander for the crown. There seems to be some confusion about what the different parts on the small council are supposed to bring to the table and their responsibilities. The Lord Commander is a man to protect the king's lives, and other members of the royal House, in addition to lead armies in war when needed and be relied on to lead those men in battle with outmost loyalty. These are actually the two roles where honorable Kingsguard are seen acting; protecting and fighting for the royals. They do not engage in political schemes at behest of their own interests, like Criston Cole, or at the command of the king. And one can thus assume that their advice in the smal council is primary of a chivalrous nature, giving the king guide in ethical and PR relations, as well as in martial matters regarding warfare on land, given what expertise the Kingsguard most often seem to possess due to them being knights and thus warriors.

And if you cannot see the value of being served by loyal morons and chivalrous fools, then you have a very limited people management ideas.

Quote

That is nonsense. He has a permanent seat on the Small Council. The Lord Commander has a political office.

A political office, sure, but not a politician's office.

Quote

I never said that they would be the main focus of Dunk & Egg. I said they will have to forced to deal with that as kings and while they lived at Maekar's court - and at least Egg lived there. Egg certainly is smart enough to get a completely different picture of the world just by spending 1-2 (or 3-4) years on the road. Those are his formative years. Also keep in mind that he is not likely going to become a peasant lover in Essos. 

if you live in a court, then courtly intrigues will be the main things for you. There's precious little else to divert yourself to except pleasure pursuits. I'll just say that I disagree and leave it at that. We can continue if you wish but I feel this is just going to be us mouting off against each other with no real basis from GRRM.

Quote

Read the text:

There is no talk about skirmishes, raids, and counters. There is talk about a bloody rebellion, and that means there was a war.

If you think that skirmishes, raids and counters are not war or can be bloody as hell, then I suppose you think that there wasn't a war in Vietnamn, the Viking raids was largely bloodless and that Tywin's reaving in the Riverlands was largely without a loss of life. What I am saying that you don't need a pitched battle to have bloody war. Skirmishes, raids and counters can easily get a very high body count themselves.

Quote

We don't even know whether the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion will be the topic of a Dunk & Egg story. But even if it was Daemon III died in battle, not in single combat.

And what I read from it is that Duncan plows through the Blackfyre ranks to kill Daemon III and thus ending the rebellion right there and then, as opposed to have a drawn out struggle, just like the example Ser Osgrey gav Duncan in regards to the spotted lion and the golden lion.

I am pretty sure we'll get to see most of these things in the Dunk & Egg format.

Quote

It is more likely that it is not custom that a king fight in a trial-by-combat himself. He is the supreme judge and above the law. He cannot do anything wrong, and anybody challenging him has to deal with his men, not the king himself.

The sheer idea that a king cannot do anything wrong is utterly nonsense to me. That means that Maegor or Aegon IV, kings whom you have personally on multiple occasions poured scorn over, were always doing things right and that what they did was ok. The king decides what is law and not, but not what is right or wrong. By your standards the self-serving lickspittles sucking up to Aegon IV and offering him their maiden daughters for privilages would have been honorable men, I don't think this is true.

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The Stormlands are far too close to the Iron Throne to be able to ignore Aegon's decree. He could sent his knights there even better than into the West. And the smallfolk there could complain to the king much better than, say, in the Vale, the southern Reach, the West, or Dorne.

The Stormlands are mostly forests and got the Kingswood between themselves and the capital. Unless they are sponsored by their lords I don't see delegations of poor smallfolk going to King's Landing to lay out their issues before the king. In fact the only time that such a thing occurs its the nobles who takes the initiative to bring the suffering of the smallfolk before the Iron Throne.

Quote

You don't seem to be reading the text but just arguing from memory. This is what Yandel writes on the reforms:

That makes it perfectly clear that Aegon V weakened the position of the lords in relation to the smallfolk. He took certain privileges and powers from them and strengthened the rights of the commons. While he couldn't push through all his reforms he did enact some, even against the opposition of the lords.

Read further, Lord Varys, and you'll see this.

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It was well-known that the resistance against him taxed Aegon's patience - especially as the compromisses a king must make to rule well often left his greatest hopes receding further and further into the future. As one defiance followed another, His Grace found himself forced to bow to the recalcitrant lord more often than he wished.

I agree that he got some through, but my argument was never that he never got anything through, but that in the realm world, for example in France, royal power and the power of the burgoise grow stronger and stronger and that allowed them to challenge the nobility for power. In Westeros we have not seen anything like it and that shows that while there was no great royal domain to lean on, or dragons for the king to use, or another class, like the burghers of the cities, to support the king, Aegon still went up in conflict against the nobles which any sensible person would understand would end in a victory for the nobility. Which is did and Aegon's successors didn't lift a finger when Tywin revoked what reforms were still standing.

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And a 'bloody-handed tyrant' most likely took more than few heads of noble malcontents daring to challenge his rule. Aegon V wasn't a nice a weak king. If you challenged him you faced him in battle.

See above. Apparently more malcontents got away than Aegon would have liked. So in short, there were examples of lord rising against the Iron Throne and not getting their heads chopped off.

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Could also be. Difficult to say. But the phrase is odd. Aerys I's knights didn't crush the Second Blackfyre Rebellion. And army led by Lord Bloodraven and the lords from the Crownlands and the Riverlands did. There may be an important difference there. If any of Aegon V's stood then he must have had the means to ensure that his decrees and laws were obeyed.

Could be, could be.

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Well, wars are costly. And, no, the income is not necessarily constant. It depends on a lot of factors. Like, how good the harvest actually is.

The point is that unless Aegon did some foolishness, he would basically have the same income that other kings would have. I don't think we hear of prolonged natural hardships during his reign.

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That is just silly. Do you think Aegon V intended to build a wall to guard his entire eastern coast against the Band of Nine? The man isn't Trump. Preparing for something like that would just help the enemy, in fact. Because if they have good intelligence they will not land where Aegon V is marshaling his troops but elsewhere, and then they are very likely to win the war. 

No but there are many things to do. Get the king and the noted lord on the same page about what to do, build relations with key lords in vulnaerable areas, get the Lords Paramount to get their lords to upgrade their defenses etc. And in fact if you can direct the enemy to land where you don't have ships, well let them land on rocks jutting out into the ocean, let them land in forests where there's no chance for an army to keep itself supplied and so on. There are many reasonable things which one can do in order to make defenses ready.

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There is no hint that he compromised with rebels who rose against him. That would set a very bad precedent (that you can blackmail the king if you use violence). Those who just opposed his reforms non-violently may have gotten a compromise.

See above. It specifically related in that Aegon bowed to troublemakers and that Lord Lyonel Baratheon raised his banners against the king, and got plenty of goodies from the king for his trouble, despite his eventual defeat. Aegon did not as far as we can tell have a non-exception hard policy on troublemakers.

[The Bard of Banefort]

It's cheating to say "everything," right? Well, I love the Tales of Dunk and Egg, and what I'm most excited to see changes all the time. Right now I'm interested in the story behind Jenny of Oldstones. I'm guessing Dunk will be traveling with his Prince Duncan when they meet Jenny, and that he'll be privy to the aftermath as well. There are the obvious ones as well: Winterfell, the Trial by Combat against Lyonel, the Third Blackfyre Rebellion, and so forth.

But mostly I'm really interested in seeing each of the kingdoms through Dunk's eyes, especially the Iron Islands. It's possible that we could see Quellon as a young man at some point, and that would be great to read about.