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Gods of Westeros: A Comparison


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Gods of Westeros: Who's the most powerful?

THE OLD GODS

Once widespread throughout the whole of Westeros, it now remains in the North only due to the Andals who came here with better warfare equipments and skills.

If not anything, this religion is durably stubborn, surviving even after 5,000-10,000 years and beyond (see, it’s the Hinduism of Westeros). The Children of the Forest used to worship them and then the First Men, who were once the arch rivals of the Children began worshipping them too. Now, that’s some self-propagation there.

Once, yes, once, the religion was very hardcore, having flaggings, flayings (where else do you think Boltons have got the skill, eh?) and rituals that required human sacrifices, but since then, it has turned for the better.

And it is powerful too, if gazing into the past and sometimes changing it is considered power. Hey, they made The Wall too!

THE NEW GODS

The most widely followed religion in Westeros, consisting of The Father, The Mother, The Maiden, The Crone, The Smith, The Warrior and The Stranger, was brought to Westeros by The Andals, though it was by warfare, but independent propagation, as was once with The Old Gods and now with The Lord of The Light.

Although after The Faith has been armed, faith (no puns, please) has been renewed to the The Seven in some extent, but still, it is losing support after so many years of The Andal Conquest as people who often come in touch of other religions convert to those very religions (hello, the sept in Iron Islands!).

Nothing about this religion is hardcore. Although power is never provided by The Seven except the Stranger, the power of the religion is very huge due to the representatives of them on the Earth such as the Great Sept (read as: The Vatican), the High Septon (read as: the Pope) and reinvigorated Faith Militant (read as: Papal Militia).

THE DROWNED GOD

Confined to the Iron Islands, these people are pirates gone insane. They rape, plunder and pillage, but with none of the charm and swagger of the pirates, perhaps with the exception of Euron (the Blackbeard of Game of Thrones). Their God has taught them to not live in a house, but to drown a child after its birth to see whether the Drowned God accepts the child or not.

Yes, their religion is a very hardcore one, and man, even the Andals who went there turned into the iron people. Of power, their God has none whatsoever to speak of. But still, every world needs pirates, so basically they have to exist.

THE LORD OF LIGHT

Although new, very new to the land of The Sunset Kingdoms, it is hardcore, if burning people is considered hardcore (shut up, Ramsay, we don’t want to hear your definition of hardcore).

And it is powerful, for it can summon storms and make prophecies and is clairvoyant. And, it can also give birth to shadow babies (yes, it sounds like a fetish cult). To sum it up for the Patchfaces of you: The Lord of Light is powerful.

And since people like to be powerful, people have accepted and converted into the religion. Look no longer than Dragonstone. And its durable, durable in a weird kind of way, as Queen Selyse without anything resembling guilt watches her brother being burnt (for the television noobs, look at Stannis and Shireen).

It takes the idea of a great good and a great evil always fighting each other from Zoroastrianism

 

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Inherently, no one.

No god has intervened Westeros, ever, nor will them in the future. Unless Martin changes idea and takes back one of the core points of his novels: like in our world, gods just exist in the faith of their followers.

If you want to measure the impact of the faithfuls and magicians in Westeros, I bet it is between Bran's impact and Melisandre's one until now, with the Walkers as possible "help" towards Bran and the "old gods" side.

If we had Essos too in the fold the red priests there are working towards a continent wide slave insurrection for Daenerys, that would be my "most powerful god" bet, but you explicitly limited this to Westeros.

Cheers!

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18 minutes ago, mediterraneo said:

Inherently, no one.

No god has intervened Westeros, ever, nor will them in the future. Unless Martin changes idea and takes back one of the core points of his novels: like in our world, gods just exist in the faith of their followers.

If you want to measure the impact of the faithfuls and magicians in Westeros, I bet it is between Bran's impact and Melisandre's one until now, with the Walkers as possible "help" towards Bran and the "old gods" side.

If we had Essos too in the fold the red priests there are working towards a continent wide slave insurrection for Daenerys, that would be my "most powerful god" bet, but you explicitly limited this to Westeros.

Cheers!

If no God has ever intervened in Westeros how do you explain Berics multiple resurrections and Lady Stoneheart?

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19 minutes ago, Ahl of the House Cutler said:

If no God has ever intervened in Westeros how do you explain Berics multiple resurrections and Lady Stoneheart?

Magic as an elemental force which certain individuals have the ability to manipulate. There are also specific geographic locations which are deeper steeped in it, as Mel mentions being more powerful at the Wall than anywhere else in her life (the fact she worships a different god than should be present at the Wall lends credence to my point).

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30 minutes ago, Ahl of the House Cutler said:

If no God has ever intervened in Westeros how do you explain Berics multiple resurrections and Lady Stoneheart?

In the same way of Melisandre's shadowbabies, Bran's telepathy and sight, wargs and general skinchanging, not burning on pires when birthing dragons, the strange things the Undying and Qaithe do, the face changing of the followers of the many faced god.
There are always people doing things, sometimes int he name of some higher power, sometimes not.
There should be some SSM about religion and no gods directly intervening, ever and the westerosi having to rely on faith to understand what's true, what's a god, what's a miracle, and indeed if gods as we moderns intend them actually exist.

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1 minute ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Okee dokey what just happened? I wanna know what the spoiler was and I want to know why you changed your avatar to what looks like a mound of skulls or a diseased kidney.

It was the big spoiler from season 6 episode 5.

LOL I changed my avatar to a mound of skulls because that is actually the picture from TWOIAF that inspired my name 40K Skeletons. It is the "Skulls of the dead in Dorne" from Daeron's conquest. The "40,000 Skeletons" is a reference to:

Ten thousand men, it is said, died in the battle for Dorne; forty thousand more died over the course of the following three years, as common Dornishmen fought on stubbornly against the king’s men.

I am alluding to the general practice of occupying a foreign country at huge costs. You may make the argument that it was worth sacrificing 10,000 men to conquer Dorne, but I doubt even Daeron could seriously argue it was worth 40,000 more troops over just 3 years to hold it.

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6 hours ago, The Mountain That Flies said:

Magic as an elemental force which certain individuals have the ability to manipulate. There are also specific geographic locations which are deeper steeped in it, as Mel mentions being more powerful at the Wall than anywhere else in her life (the fact she worships a different god than should be present at the Wall lends credence to my point).

The first sentence out of Thoros of Myr to Arya after resurrecting Beric is "I have no magic, child."  Therefore, IMO, resurrections are of divine origin.  We only know of one time that ToM did this in a "magical" setting, which is when they are in the caves with the weirwood roots, but there is nothing "magical" about a river bank where Cat was brought back.

5 hours ago, mediterraneo said:

In the same way of Melisandre's shadowbabies, Bran's telepathy and sight, wargs and general skinchanging, not burning on pires when birthing dragons, the strange things the Undying and Qaithe do, the face changing of the followers of the many faced god.
There are always people doing things, sometimes int he name of some higher power, sometimes not.
There should be some SSM about religion and no gods directly intervening, ever and the westerosi having to rely on faith to understand what's true, what's a god, what's a miracle, and indeed if gods as we moderns intend them actually exist.

Mel's tricks, Dany surviving the pyre, and face changing all require SACRIFICE and death of one way shape or form.  What is a sacrifice if you aren't doing it for some divine being?  

Brans skills are genetic in origin.  Not magical.  Although you can say that Stark blood is inherently magical, I could say it is divine blood.  Same with Targaryens.

Craster calls the Others Gods.  If the Others are indeed Gods then they have certainly had an impact on Westeros.

And I don't buy HBOs explanation for how White Walkers were created.   

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1 hour ago, Ahl of the House Cutler said:

...

 

The first sentence out of Thoros of Myr to Arya after resurrecting Beric is "I have no magic, child."  Therefore, IMO, resurrections are of divine origin.  We only know of one time that ToM did this in a "magical" setting, which is when they are in the caves with the weirwood roots, but there is nothing "magical" about a river bank where Cat was brought back.

...

Mel's tricks, Dany surviving the pyre, and face changing all require SACRIFICE and death of one way shape or form.  What is a sacrifice if you aren't doing it for some divine being?  

....

Well, Thoros is surely in good faith doing what he does in the name of his god. He truly believes it.

On the other hand, we have a So Spake Martin affirming here in 2007 (6-8 july, Indianapolis) and in other places too that:
"There will be no gods on stage in the books and the reader will have to decide whether there are gods or not."
I feel that while Martin can change idea and include direct divine intervention in the future, that covers the books already published.
That includes all of the sacrifices you list and all of Thoros actions.

So your opinion seems to be incorrect, according to the author of the books: those are included as "not a clear case of divine intervention" in Martin words.

It is to be taken in account that the author does want the situation to be as ambigous as he can write it, and you are surely free to recognize it as divine, as well as magical or in any way you choose.

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1 hour ago, mediterraneo said:

Well, Thoros is surely in good faith doing what he does in the name of his god. He truly believes it.

On the other hand, we have a So Spake Martin affirming here in 2007 (6-8 july, Indianapolis) and in other places too that:
"There will be no gods on stage in the books and the reader will have to decide whether there are gods or not."
I feel that while Martin can change idea and include direct divine intervention in the future, that covers the books already published.
That includes all of the sacrifices you list and all of Thoros actions.

So your opinion seems to be incorrect, according to the author of the books: those are included as "not a clear case of divine intervention" in Martin words.

It is to be taken in account that the author does want the situation to be as ambigous as he can write it, and you are surely free to recognize it as divine, as well as magical or in any way you choose.

"Well, the readers are certainly free to wonder about the validity of these religions, the truth of these religions, and the teachings of these religions. I'm a little leery of the word "true" — whether any of these religions are more true than others. I mean, look at the analogue of our real world. We have many religions too. Are some of them more true than others? I don't think any gods are likely to be showing up in Westeros, any more than they already do. We're not going to have one appearing, deus ex machina, to affect the outcomes of things, no matter how hard anyone prays. So the relation between the religions and the various magics that some people have here is something that the reader can try to puzzle out."  G.R.R.M

I'm just a reader trying to puzzle it out.

I have a running theory that the gods were at one point and time very real.  

"He was more than a man, though.  His blood was the blood of Old Valyria, the blood of dragons and gods." 

As I'm sure you know that was Cersei talking about Rhaegar.  I believe that certain Valyrians were a sort of demi-god.  Whoever showed up and taught them how to use dragons were the actual "gods".  

I'd like to create a topic about my theory but I'm still trying to flesh it out.  

 

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4 hours ago, Ahl of the House Cutler said:

The first sentence out of Thoros of Myr to Arya after resurrecting Beric is "I have no magic, child."  Therefore, IMO, resurrections are of divine origin.  We only know of one time that ToM did this in a "magical" setting, which is when they are in the caves with the weirwood roots, but there is nothing "magical" about a river bank where Cat was brought back.

Maybe this is a bit of a semantics issue... Martin says it's unlikely that we'll see any gods on page, so it will be, at least in theory, possible to assign either religion or magic as the cause of whatever event. In other words, "you say potato, I say po-tah-toe".   

4 hours ago, Ahl of the House Cutler said:

Mel's tricks, Dany surviving the pyre, and face changing all require SACRIFICE and death of one way shape or form.  What is a sacrifice if you aren't doing it for some divine being?  

Another definition is:

something good that you must stop having in order to achieve something: 

Sometimes you have to make sacrifices to succeed.
4 hours ago, Ahl of the House Cutler said:

Brans skills are genetic in origin.  Not magical.  Although you can say that Stark blood is inherently magical, I could say it is divine blood.  Same with Targaryens.

But not necessarily divine. For instance, the Starks' special bloodline could be a result of intermarrying with the CotF. 

4 hours ago, Ahl of the House Cutler said:

Craster calls the Others Gods.  If the Others are indeed Gods then they have certainly had an impact on Westeros.

I agree they have had an impact. And since Martin himself says it's unlikely we'll see gods on page affecting the story, my take is that Craster is full of it on top of being one of the creepiest PoS in the story. :ack:

 

4 hours ago, Ahl of the House Cutler said:

And I don't buy HBOs explanation for how White Walkers were created.   

And why should you? On that and everything else btw! :P 

 

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I think it would take away from the drama of the narrative if a/the god(s) take an active role. Otherwise the story would suddenly become about them and their followers more than anything else. When you leave the validity of all the religions presented as ambiguous, then the characters are the primary focus. Plus it just reflects real life. The truth of miracles and divine intervention in our world are written off as hogwash by some and historical fact by others. Really, it all boils down to the essential element of any religion: faith. And people of faith can range from paragons of virtue to absolutely terrifying, just like anyone else. 

Though I blow rainbows up GRRMs ass every chance I get in real life, there are some criticisms of his writing that I have and one of them is the religions in his story. I could knock him for not really going out on a branch and experimenting with religion (they all have strong analogues in our world), but it's really the lack of balanced portrayal that makes it incomplete to me. Especially for the Faith of the Seven and R'hollor. High Septons are either tools, sycophants, or extremists, Red Priests are murderous fanatics, etc. Even Baelor the Blessed, the only king (or high lord, for that matter) of genuine faith, is pretty hard to see as anything other than overzealous (to put it lightly).

Separating maesters from the Faith also seems like a weird choice, considering the Church was synonymous with scholarship and universities for centuries. Not to mention both the Faith and Citadel were centralized in Oldtown so it seems odd they somehow were established as separate entities to begin with. The Hightowers were said to have been (and continue to be) patrons for the creation of the Citadel while also known for being devout followers of the faith (many of their family have served as High Septons). This also rings as a little odd to me, especially because it's something that hasn't been lampshaded. For a story that's fundamentally about ambiguously gray people and institutions, the separation between faith and reason seems to pessimistically caricaturize the Faith.

I'm not trying to argue that GRRM is bashing religion; religion is more than fair game to criticize compared to many other things he places under the microscope (e.g., gender roles, chivalry, war, etc.). However, it seems like he forgot to add both dimensions to that criticism. We see the juxtaposition between varying degrees of monarchs: some are only concerned with power (Joffrey; Cersei) and their "right" (early Daenerys and Stannis) versus ones concerned with justice (Robb) and protecting the realm/innocent (late Stannis and Daenerys). Where is this juxtaposition of religious leaders in power? The HBO version of the High Sparrow is probably the closest we get but he's really nothing like the book version.

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18 minutes ago, Traverys said:

I think it would take away from the drama of the narrative if a/the god(s) take an active role. Otherwise the story would suddenly become about them and their followers more than anything else. When you leave the validity of all the religions presented as ambiguous, then the characters are the primary focus. Plus it just reflects real life.

Agree. I mean, we as readers can even decide that all that happens to the characters, happens because of the gods. But to have it so that the gods themselves are taking clearly active roles -- like God literally reaching down to Moses and handing him a book full of laws, as a very bad example -- this would make it a very different story. And not one I'd care to read, honestly.

23 minutes ago, Traverys said:

Though I blow rainbows up GRRMs ass every chance I get in real life, there are some criticisms of his writing that I have and one of them is the religions in his story. I could knock him for not really going out on a branch and experimenting with religion (they all have strong analogues in our world), but it's really the lack of balanced portrayal that makes it incomplete to me. Especially for the Faith of the Seven and R'hollor. High Septons are either tools, sycophants, or extremists, Red Priests are murderous fanatics, etc.

Indeed, there is a strong undercurrent of his own experience with religion there IMO as he seems to have a lot more respect and affection for the lower levels of the clergy of the Faith of the Seven rather than the upper, which is depicted as all rot in the "power corrupts" sense.

Red priests are depicted with more leeway IMO. Melisandre was a straight-up sorceress along with being a priestess who was all about lying and putting on a big show to get the results she wanted (lots of converts) which again might be a critique of religion in general. She does have genuine powers of sight, but limited ability to correctly interpret and follow through when push comes to shove.

It's hard to say if we are supposed to take away that all red priests follow this pattern. Thoros of Myr, for instance, is down to earth and genuine in faith once he saw an actual miracle happen. The question that we the readers are left with is: was the miracle due to R'hllor, or to sorcery? The faith of the red priests appears to be made of up of mostly magic which anyone could learn.

 

... And then there's the Old Gods and the people who follow them. I am still trying to get a handle on all that. I think that clearly, the model for this would be the ancient religion of the Celtic tribes of northern Europe. It's known that these people practiced human sacrifice right up until they converted to Christianity; and that at least in Ireland, certain tree species were held sacred. That's as good enough jumping-off point for where the current Northmen are, I think. Many of them have forgotten their roots, and just do certain things because they were taught to do it (Ex.- Ned Stark cleaning the blood from his blade in the pool underneath the weirwood might be a stand--in for an actual hum sacrifice; "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell")

 

38 minutes ago, Traverys said:

Even Baelor the Blessed, the only king (or high lord, for that matter) of genuine faith, is pretty hard to see as anything other than overzealous (to put it lightly).

When taken all together, I see everything we read about Baelor as very satirical. I think he could have his own little novella: Baelor the Blessed, the king all the smallfolk loved because he was so pious. But imagine what a headache it was to have to serve on his small council!

 

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I've always kind of thought of the Drowned God as one of the Old Gods. There's never a pantheon or anything mentioned, and the theory that the greenseers are the Old Gods, but just the feeling I get from it. 

I think there's enough that a case could be made that gods have intervened, but not on some grand, game changing scale. But I don't think it could ever be proven, or the Drowned god is going to rise from the ocean or something. 

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2 hours ago, weirwoodface said:

Red priests are depicted with more leeway IMO. Melisandre was a straight-up sorceress along with being a priestess who was all about lying and putting on a big show to get the results she wanted (lots of converts) which again might be a critique of religion in general. She does have genuine powers of sight, but limited ability to correctly interpret and follow through when push comes to shove.

It's hard to say if we are supposed to take away that all red priests follow this pattern. Thoros of Myr, for instance, is down to earth and genuine in faith once he saw an actual miracle happen. The question that we the readers are left with is: was the miracle due to R'hllor, or to sorcery? The faith of the red priests appears to be made of up of mostly magic which anyone could learn.

 

It seems to me like just as in real life people require faith in the god(s) of their religion to go the extra mile, so too does that apply towards making magic in the asoiaf verse. I think the Red Priests for the most part are very gifted magic practitioners but when it comes to the more harder stuff, it takes more than just skill as one must also be able to believe in themselves to perform 'miracles'. The amazing feats Mel and Thoros have been able to perform are not so different from Dany birthing dragons after walking into a funeral pyre out of raw will and taking a leap of faith. Although when it comes to the clergy of R'hllor, they need to believe in something greater than themselves and that entity has a higher calling for them to give them that extra boost to make their miracles comes to fruition. I'm not sure if R'hllor exists or if he's an actual god. But from a meta standpoint, its because his followers believe he is their god and they are his special snowflakes that they have enough faith to pull off their miracles.

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3 hours ago, weirwoodface said:

Agree. I mean, we as readers can even decide that all that happens to the characters, happens because of the gods. But to have it so that the gods themselves are taking clearly active roles -- like God literally reaching down to Moses and handing him a book full of laws, as a very bad example -- this would make it a very different story. And not one I'd care to read, honestly.

I've come across at least a couple of fantasy series that do have active creator gods and it just doesn't work in my opinion. Deus ex machina becomes too common, free will sometimes becomes ambiguous, etc.

 

3 hours ago, weirwoodface said:

Red priests are depicted with more leeway IMO. Melisandre was a straight-up sorceress along with being a priestess who was all about lying and putting on a big show to get the results she wanted (lots of converts) which again might be a critique of religion in general. She does have genuine powers of sight, but limited ability to correctly interpret and follow through when push comes to shove.

It's hard to say if we are supposed to take away that all red priests follow this pattern. Thoros of Myr, for instance, is down to earth and genuine in faith once he saw an actual miracle happen. The question that we the readers are left with is: was the miracle due to R'hllor, or to sorcery? The faith of the red priests appears to be made of up of mostly magic which anyone could learn.

True. I was primarily thinking of Melisandre and Moquorro since they've both used sacrifices. I forget sometimes that Melisandre is a red priestess and shadowbinder; how those two relate to one another is probably an interesting topic that hasn't yet been fully explored. They are obviously complimentary, but how common shadowbinding is within the faith itself is up in the air as far as I know. Shadowbinding thus far seems to lean towards the sinister side of things. If that's true, then she justifies its use with her whole argument about shadows being the children of light.

There may be some tidbits on it in World of Ice and Fire I'll have to look.

3 hours ago, weirwoodface said:

... And then there's the Old Gods and the people who follow them. I am still trying to get a handle on all that. I think that clearly, the model for this would be the ancient religion of the Celtic tribes of northern Europe. It's known that these people practiced human sacrifice right up until they converted to Christianity; and that at least in Ireland, certain tree species were held sacred. That's as good enough jumping-off point for where the current Northmen are, I think. Many of them have forgotten their roots, and just do certain things because they were taught to do it (Ex.- Ned Stark cleaning the blood from his blade in the pool underneath the weirwood might be a stand--in for an actual hum sacrifice; "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell")

Yeah, I agree it is some kind of European animism. It's not a reformed religion, so any "shaman" or "priestly" positions someone may hold are unofficial and based on merit rather than election/appointment. I agree that it seems to have devolved into a set of traditions. It almost reminds me a little bit of Shinto (also a form of animism) because it's not really a religion you formally join, and instead of being about believing it's more about going through the traditional motions. There aren't "rules" to follow but instead rituals to be diligent about completing. Similarly, the Old Gods don't really seem to be the type you actively worship but rather the kind that you try not to piss off by following the traditions of your ancestors.

3 hours ago, weirwoodface said:

When taken all together, I see everything we read about Baelor as very satirical. I think he could have his own little novella: Baelor the Blessed, the king all the smallfolk loved because he was so pious. But imagine what a headache it was to have to serve on his small council!

Lol, I would totally love a novella about the (mis)adventures of Baelor the Blessed! From the perspective of his small council would be brilliant. They'd have to work behind his back to get anything reasonable done. He's obviously a Targaryen Henry VI, except cranked up to 11. But, going back to the points in my original post, it seems Septons didn't even try to talk sense into him like they would have in our world. Henry VI was criticized by the clergy of his time, and I wanna say something bad happened to the priest that told him to remain chaste and not take pleasure in making an heir.

5 minutes ago, Kaibaman said:

But from a meta standpoint, its because his followers believe he is their god and they are his special snowflakes that they have enough faith to pull off their miracles.

This is my opinion too. I think Mel's belief in the power of king's blood is also just a belief thing. It reminds me of Mage: The Ascension, where magic and subsequently foci are embedded in personal belief, or paradigm. A card, wand, dance, etc. that someone uses when "casting" only works because they believe it does. Eventually they advance to a level where they realize it's just a crutch and can discard them. If someone else pics up the same item, does the same movements, etc. it won't work at all for them unless it's also part of their paradigm.

Point being that maybe some of their rituals aren't truly necessary, but since they believe they are (part of their personal paradigm of magic) they have to go through the motions for spells to work.

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