Aemon Targaryen

R + L = J .... but so what?

134 posts in this topic

In the trailer, Jon and LF are in the WF crypts.  

The last time LF was there, he and Sansa spoke of Lyanna.  LF's reaction to Sansa telling the kidnap story seemed to indicate he knew that story was false.  That means he might know or suspect that Jon is Lyanna's son and perhaps not by rape. Ie LF knows RLJ.

Now we see Jon getting emotional with LF in front of Lyanna's statue -- perhaps LF first tells Jon that Ned is not his father ... before telling him about RLJ.

My first reaction, if this is true - what a letdown!  Wouldn't that somehow 'besmirch' R+L=J.  LF would merely be using RLJ to split Sansa and Jon, and perhaps undermine Jon being KitN.

But then ... what if that was GRRM's plan all along, or at least his plan from aCoK onwards --- that this great reveal is really nothing on the show?  I always took "you know nothing" to indirectly allude to RLJ ... but what if it is RLJ that is really nothing.  And just like Jon has already had a potentially shattering revelation about death and what lies on the other side ... and just like that, it's like so what - it's nothing.

The irony would be strong: the one person who is the rightful heir to the iron throne rejects his heritage, rejects the whole concept of heritage and rejects the throne, but saves the kingdom anyhow.

That is the ultimate f you to the whole feudal patriarchal primogeniture thing.  Jon chooses to define himself by his experiences and his actions.  He will always be a bastard, in his own mind, and always be Ned Stark's son.  The adopting parent is the real parent, not the birth parents.  I mean he has already died, before even learning about this.

(Also, if RLJ is so underplayed like this, it seems to increase the chance that AJT becomes the bigger dramatic reveal -- which relatively few people will know about or believe in ... which, in turn, makes me think that Tyrion is the ultimate "winner" of the whole series, who finally becomes the wise king at the end ... after Jon and Dany and the dragons (and many others) die.  Re-reading aCoK and Tyrion's time as hand, one can see Tyrion trying to be a wise, pragmatic ruler who is also subtly honourable and merciful ... better really than anyone else so far on the show).

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I tried to make a post about this exact point, not sure where it went on here.

 

R+L=J HAS to mean something to the show.  I always presumed it was going to be JS's claim to the throne as KITN, but obviously now that's not it.

 

I actually believe the big "reveal" relating to this will be that Jon's wolf, Ghost, is actually Ned Stark.  It explains why we have gone to such painstaking detail for Bran to learn about the Tower of Joy incident and all the details around it, it explains why Bran has "seen" Ned's execution in his vision (as well as the white ravens flying away), and it also explains the extremely suspicious "popping up" of Ghost every single time Jon Snow is in big trouble or unable to defend himself (after all, if honorable Ned wouldn't keep a promise to his sister on a death bed, what promise would he keep?)

 

There are definitely some other pieces of evidence that further support this theory, but I absolutely believe R+L=J is going to be the conduit to let us know that Ned is Jon's wolf.  I think it will play out with Bran realizing the implication of Jon's lineage and the importance of Ned's promise, and he'll warg back into Ned, then into a white raven (with Ned looking up prior to execution), then into Ghost.

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Posted (edited)

6 hours ago, HuntingMolly said:

I tried to make a post about this exact point, not sure where it went on here.

 

R+L=J HAS to mean something to the show.  I always presumed it was going to be JS's claim to the throne as KITN, but obviously now that's not it.

 

I actually believe the big "reveal" relating to this will be that Jon's wolf, Ghost, is actually Ned Stark.  It explains why we have gone to such painstaking detail for Bran to learn about the Tower of Joy incident and all the details around it, it explains why Bran has "seen" Ned's execution in his vision (as well as the white ravens flying away), and it also explains the extremely suspicious "popping up" of Ghost every single time Jon Snow is in big trouble or unable to defend himself (after all, if honorable Ned wouldn't keep a promise to his sister on a death bed, what promise would he keep?)

 

There are definitely some other pieces of evidence that further support this theory, but I absolutely believe R+L=J is going to be the conduit to let us know that Ned is Jon's wolf.  I think it will play out with Bran realizing the implication of Jon's lineage and the importance of Ned's promise, and he'll warg back into Ned, then into a white raven (with Ned looking up prior to execution), then into Ghost.

Quite the tinfoil theory.

1. Ned never had warg powers, either in book or show. The special talent of the Stark children is they are wargs. Ned was not.

2. Jon got Ghost while Ned was alive, so Ghost can't be a reincarnation of Ned.

Your theory makes no sense.

Edited by Gaz0680

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Pretty much how I see it. Jon is thrust into all these leadership roles not because "The Throne is myn by right" but because people want to follow him.

And the Finger/Crypt scene wont be about R+L but likly Finger calling Ned foolish.

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I do not think it has anything to do with his parentage, that is job for Bran and maybe Sam.

Baelish helped them but also Jon knows what he did to Sansa - obviously he said something to Jon that pushed him over the edge and poignant that it happens near Lyanna's and Ned's statues. It could be about Sansa, what to do as the king or something about Ned. Jon will not like Baelish and he's against such a people. Same way Ned were before naively trusting him to do the right thing.

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how would little finger know jon snow is lyanna's son? Honestly I think jon is less naive then ned was about littlefinger and thus give him no chance. And how would being lyanna's son hurt him being king of the north? The same blood would run through him and he was a bastard either way

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4 hours ago, snow is the man said:

how would little finger know jon snow is lyanna's son?

People based this upon on him telling Sansa about Rhaegar and Lyanna. I think he knows it consensual relationship and they ran off together, there might be more people thinking that but connecting Jon to it it's a bit too much even for Bealish.

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Honestly I think jon is less naive then ned was about littlefinger and thus give him no chance.

I agree and we saw trail of Jon pushing Littlefinger against the wall. Jon clearly suspects him of being a rat in their midst.

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And how would being lyanna's son hurt him being king of the north? The same blood would run through him and he was a bastard either way

Lyanna Mormont said Ned's blood but now we know Jon has Targaryen blood too. He's Rhaegar's and Lyanna's son, the guy who is hated in the North, count on the spoiler along with it and northern lords might not be happy about this including Sansa. Who then might be seen as someone worthy of leading them. Just a speculation mind you. Bran might know about nature of their relationship but some people won't believe it. There is a prejudice towards Targaryens.

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4 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Lyanna Mormont said Ned's blood but now we know Jon has Targaryen blood too. He's Rhaegar's and Lyanna's son, the guy who is hated in the North, count on the spoiler along with it and northern lords might not be happy about this including Sansa. Who then might be seen as someone worthy of leading them. Just a speculation mind you. Bran might know about nature of their relationship but some people won't believe it. There is a prejudice towards Targaryens.

While I see how being a Targaryen would hurt his name as a Stark, I don't think that will be his downfall. I don't see why they would put Jon through the ringer and develop his character so intensely, only to have him stripped of power (again) so late in the show.

There is a very strong prejudice against Targaryens in Westeros in general, save a few exceptions, so maybe the revelation that Jon has Targ blood could just be laying the groundwork for the northernmen to ally themselves with Dany once she comes rolling around. Or maybe this is just showing how Targs and Starks are the only rulers fit for Westerosi territory and Jon being apart of both houses can help bridge the gap from The North to the rest of Westeros. Either way, I think it symbolizes acceptance and growth rather than weakness or illegitimacy. The North has bigger shit to worry about than who's kid their chosen king is. They know he's a bastard. But they recognize him as a Stark, and a true Stark he is. I could be overestimating them, but I'm pretty sure they're passed what his birthright is. 

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13 hours ago, KINGpanther said:

Pretty much how I see it. Jon is thrust into all these leadership roles not because "The Throne is myn by right" but because people want to follow him.

And the Finger/Crypt scene wont be about R+L but likly Finger calling Ned foolish.

Could be.  Also could be both.  You're probably right though

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9 hours ago, snow is the man said:

how would little finger know jon snow is lyanna's son? Honestly I think jon is less naive then ned was about littlefinger and thus give him no chance. And how would being lyanna's son hurt him being king of the north? The same blood would run through him and he was a bastard either way

LF at least knows/suspects that Lyanna loved Rhaegar and knows first-hand how rigid and honourable Ned is.  It doesn't seem a big leap give LF's ability to divine others' intentions and motives.

I agree with other posters that you simply can't be a targaryen or targaryen bastard and be king in the north.

Perhaps that's the even bigger irony -- that even though he is the iron throne's true heir, the discovery hinders him.

I.e. when Jon declares support for Daenerys, LF uses RLJ (or discovers and then uses RLJ, if he does not yet know) that as a basis for Jon to be rejected by the North, with the aim of LF and Sansa ruling the North and WF.

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4 hours ago, Zoe Stark said:

While I see how being a Targaryen would hurt his name as a Stark, I don't think that will be his downfall. I don't see why they would put Jon through the ringer and develop his character so intensely, only to have him stripped of power (again) so late in the show.

There is a very strong prejudice against Targaryens in Westeros in general, save a few exceptions, so maybe the revelation that Jon has Targ blood could just be laying the groundwork for the northernmen to ally themselves with Dany once she comes rolling around. Or maybe this is just showing how Targs and Starks are the only rulers fit for Westerosi territory and Jon being apart of both houses can help bridge the gap from The North to the rest of Westeros. Either way, I think it symbolizes acceptance and growth rather than weakness or illegitimacy. The North has bigger shit to worry about than who's kid their chosen king is. They know he's a bastard. But they recognize him as a Stark, and a true Stark he is. I could be overestimating them, but I'm pretty sure they're passed what his birthright is. 

Well, I'll always bring up the books when I hear people say this but the old Stark kings do not accept Jon as a Stark and see him as an usurper. 

 

Also remember that a lot of these northmen lost family members to Jon's grandfather and father.  The war killed a lot of northerners.

 

Jon's grandfather killed his other grandfather and executed his uncle and several northmen on top of that, Jon was borne of the rape of Lyanna Stark to their minds. 

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Baelish can be (and has no problem stating it) to Jon what Roose was to Robb. I think the point of this story is character developing, so Snow won't let this proven backstabber do to him what he does the best. 

As for his Targ blood, I don't see why the Northmen would have a problem with this, it's proven because he is already accepted as a bastard.

People start to worry about what a man is, and not who he is.

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3 hours ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Well, I'll always bring up the books when I hear people say this but the old Stark kings do not accept Jon as a Stark and see him as an usurper. 

 

Also remember that a lot of these northmen lost family members to Jon's grandfather and father.  The war killed a lot of northerners.

 

Jon's grandfather killed his other grandfather and executed his uncle and several northmen on top of that, Jon was borne of the rape of Lyanna Stark to their minds. 

This is all the more reason why I see him becoming a symbol of change and hope. Jon is bringing a new era to The North, and while some old dudes might consider it usurping, ultimately  don't think he'll be brought down from power because of who his real parents are. The fact that he has Targ blood won't change the fact that he's a Stark bastard. They knew what he was and they still declared him King in the North. The northmen loved Lyanna, so I don't see them forsaking her son because of who his father is. He was raised a Stark and Rhaegar and Aerys are long dead. They had no part in his upbringing. While that might not matter as blood is thicker than water, who's to say he can't be accepted as a true Stark, as he was raised by a man they all respected immensely. Jon will probably have a big speech about how proud he is to have been raised by his mother's brother and how this does not change who he is or what his allegiance is in the slightest. 

Also, this is all assuming that the information of his heritage somehow gets out. I don't know what leaks there have been, but we can't count on that to happen. But I guess if they want to bring the three heads of the dragon storyline into play, there will have to be that big reveal. So I suppose we won't know anything until it happens, but I just don't see him getting shot down so easily. Either way, the wall will soon fail and they'll have to make a decision to waste time and get a new king, or they can stick with Jonny boy. I say it's the latter.

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11 hours ago, Zoe Stark said:

While I see how being a Targaryen would hurt his name as a Stark, I don't think that will be his downfall. I don't see why they would put Jon through the ringer and develop his character so intensely, only to have him stripped of power (again) so late in the show.

There is a very strong prejudice against Targaryens in Westeros in general, save a few exceptions, so maybe the revelation that Jon has Targ blood could just be laying the groundwork for the northernmen to ally themselves with Dany once she comes rolling around. Or maybe this is just showing how Targs and Starks are the only rulers fit for Westerosi territory and Jon being apart of both houses can help bridge the gap from The North to the rest of Westeros. Either way, I think it symbolizes acceptance and growth rather than weakness or illegitimacy. The North has bigger shit to worry about than who's kid their chosen king is. They know he's a bastard. But they recognize him as a Stark, and a true Stark he is. I could be overestimating them, but I'm pretty sure they're passed what his birthright is. 

I think Jon won't be King for too long for many reasons including this and he has higher callig perhaps woith the war and become KIng of Seven Kingdoms. His future to me is either death or ruling on the iron throne or some version of it. Not in the North as much as I would love it and many fans along with me.

Jon's parentage has implications on prophecy, his relationship with Dany and also on himself. Realizing his life was a lie and the secret behind this. Also how his parents love led to death of thousand of people. Show made a mess of it the way they made him a King because sbook version will be better nad more justifiable because of Robb's will. Not asking about him leaving the Night's Watch, being a bastard but in this version of the story even kingslaying is fine.

 There is a war coming up, so it might not be the case for it right now but some talks have to be made and we know there is one important meeting of Northrn lords without Jon next season.

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On 5/26/2017 at 4:02 PM, Gaz0680 said:

Quite the tinfoil theory.

1. Ned never had warg powers, either in book or show. The special talent of the Stark children is they are wargs. Ned was not.

2. Jon got Ghost while Ned was alive, so Ghost can't be a reincarnation of Ned.

Your theory makes no sense.

Furthermore, Varamyr Sixskins's chapter makes it clear that you can only escape death by warging if the person or animal you're warging into is nearby. Ghost was in the North when Ned died in King's Landing.

There's nothing suspicious at all about Ghost showing up every time Jon needs him to. He's his direwolf and they have a special bond; it's the same with all the Stark children and their direwolves. That's what they're for.

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4 hours ago, Zoe Stark said:

This is all the more reason why I see him becoming a symbol of change and hope. Jon is bringing a new era to The North, and while some old dudes might consider it usurping, ultimately  don't think he'll be brought down from power because of who his real parents are. The fact that he has Targ blood won't change the fact that he's a Stark bastard. They knew what he was and they still declared him King in the North. The northmen loved Lyanna, so I don't see them forsaking her son because of who his father is. He was raised a Stark and Rhaegar and Aerys are long dead. They had no part in his upbringing. While that might not matter as blood is thicker than water, who's to say he can't be accepted as a true Stark, as he was raised by a man they all respected immensely. Jon will probably have a big speech about how proud he is to have been raised by his mother's brother and how this does not change who he is or what his allegiance is in the slightest. 

Also, this is all assuming that the information of his heritage somehow gets out. I don't know what leaks there have been, but we can't count on that to happen. But I guess if they want to bring the three heads of the dragon storyline into play, there will have to be that big reveal. So I suppose we won't know anything until it happens, but I just don't see him getting shot down so easily. Either way, the wall will soon fail and they'll have to make a decision to waste time and get a new king, or they can stick with Jonny boy. I say it's the latter.

These aren't old guys. There are the old Stark kings. If your own ancestors don't even accept you as a Stark then I hold a lot loss hope for regular northerners to do so.

But it's moot in the end because I don't think Jon is surviving . He's got a death waiting for him in the end.

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Posted (edited)

17 hours ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

These aren't old guys. There are the old Stark kings. If your own ancestors don't even accept you as a Stark then I hold a lot loss hope for regular northerners to do so.

But it's moot in the end because I don't think Jon is surviving . He's got a death waiting for him in the end.

Stark Kings couldn't accept Jon because he has Targaryen heritage and he's not Stark in name, likey Targaryen. Not because they won't ever accept in their scoiety or Northern lords or because of his bastard status. Taht might be different when Robb's will resurface. It's a another hint to his parentage in the books.

He already died once. Of course he might die again  - but other characters from big five or six have bigger chances, well some of them.

Edited by Lord Friendzone

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Jon has the same Stark blood in his veins as the legitimate Stark children. Lyanna was Ned's sister meaning Jon is a Stark on his mothers side plus having never met his real father and being raised by Ned to be a Stark in my head makes Jon more legit than Sansa.

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The reason R+L=J is important is because, it makes Jon the legitimate Tarygaryen heir, not Dany. But Jon will never identify with his Targ ancestry, he is a Stark in coloring and temperament. He is just as much a Stark as any of Ned and Cat's children, perhaps more so because it is the only name he identifies with.

It also makes Jon and Dany aunt and nephew, which reinforces the theory of the Targ line being reestablished. 

The question isn't about who Jon is, the question is, will Bran and Sam tell Jon once they discover the truth? With everything that is happening, I could see them withholding that information until the Great War is completed. Who knows, he might be the only one left standing who has even a remote claim to the title.

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I believe the whole Iron Throne will be gone in the end and Westeros will move closer to democracy. That is one of the reasons I think the revelation won't end up putting Jon on the throne. I think it's more about the themes of war and fire and ice. Rhaegar's and Lyanna's story is really tragic, leading to war and the deaths of thousands of people. It also foreshadows what is going to happen between Jon and Dany. I strongly believe the two will hook up, Dany will get pregnant and die at childbirth and once Jon dies his son will become fatherless just like him.

I also suspect their child will have a part to play in forging peace with the Others. The child of Jon and Dany will have strong magical blood in him and the Others are known to convert human children into White Walkers. Perhaps the child is sacrificed for peace. This would tie some plot strings from early seasons (Craster's keep) aswell as end some big ones, such as the entire Targaryen family line and dragons.

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