Aemon Targaryen

R + L = J .... but so what?

134 posts in this topic

On 5/24/2017 at 11:42 PM, Aemon Targaryen said:

In the trailer, Jon and LF are in the WF crypts.  

The last time LF was there, he and Sansa spoke of Lyanna.  LF's reaction to Sansa telling the kidnap story seemed to indicate he knew that story was false.  That means he might know or suspect that Jon is Lyanna's son and perhaps not by rape. Ie LF knows RLJ.

Now we see Jon getting emotional with LF in front of Lyanna's statue -- perhaps LF first tells Jon that Ned is not his father ... before telling him about RLJ.

My first reaction, if this is true - what a letdown!  Wouldn't that somehow 'besmirch' R+L=J.  LF would merely be using RLJ to split Sansa and Jon, and perhaps undermine Jon being KitN.

But then ... what if that was GRRM's plan all along, or at least his plan from aCoK onwards --- that this great reveal is really nothing on the show?  I always took "you know nothing" to indirectly allude to RLJ ... but what if it is RLJ that is really nothing.  And just like Jon has already had a potentially shattering revelation about death and what lies on the other side ... and just like that, it's like so what - it's nothing.

The irony would be strong: the one person who is the rightful heir to the iron throne rejects his heritage, rejects the whole concept of heritage and rejects the throne, but saves the kingdom anyhow.

That is the ultimate f you to the whole feudal patriarchal primogeniture thing.  Jon chooses to define himself by his experiences and his actions.  He will always be a bastard, in his own mind, and always be Ned Stark's son.  The adopting parent is the real parent, not the birth parents.  I mean he has already died, before even learning about this.

(Also, if RLJ is so underplayed like this, it seems to increase the chance that AJT becomes the bigger dramatic reveal -- which relatively few people will know about or believe in ... which, in turn, makes me think that Tyrion is the ultimate "winner" of the whole series, who finally becomes the wise king at the end ... after Jon and Dany and the dragons (and many others) die.  Re-reading aCoK and Tyrion's time as hand, one can see Tyrion trying to be a wise, pragmatic ruler who is also subtly honourable and merciful ... better really than anyone else so far on the show).

Interesting food for thought, but I don't think there will be any single "winner" at the end.

I've been predicting for years (since I first read ADWD almost six years ago) that the power will be divided at the end, in a "tri-archy" fashion, which explains why we were given all that information about the tri-archy through Tyrion's POV in ADWD.

The only question is...who will be the three rulers?? I think Tyrion for sure, Dany for sure, and the third is more difficult to say.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/27/2017 at 9:02 PM, Lord Friendzone said:

People based this upon on him telling Sansa about Rhaegar and Lyanna. I think he knows it consensual relationship and they ran off together, there might be more people thinking that but connecting Jon to it it's a bit too much even for Bealish.

I agree and we saw trail of Jon pushing Littlefinger against the wall. Jon clearly suspects him of being a rat in their midst.

Lyanna Mormont said Ned's blood but now we know Jon has Targaryen blood too. He's Rhaegar's and Lyanna's son, the guy who is hated in the North, count on the spoiler along with it and northern lords might not be happy about this including Sansa. Who then might be seen as someone worthy of leading them. Just a speculation mind you. Bran might know about nature of their relationship but some people won't believe it. There is a prejudice towards Targaryens.

 

What do you mean we saw "trail of jon pushing little finger against the wall"?

 

Also I have a hard time believing that alot of people will take bran seriously. He looks like a stark so there is no way to connect him to rhaegar. Also I doubt they would care because he is the last male stark as far as they know. He is well known and they already committed to him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Cron said:

Interesting food for thought, but I don't think there will be any single "winner" at the end.

I've been predicting for years (since I first read ADWD almost six years ago) that the power will be divided at the end, in a "tri-archy" fashion, which explains why we were given all that information about the tri-archy through Tyrion's POV in ADWD.

The only question is...who will be the three rulers?? I think Tyrion for sure, Dany for sure, and the third is more difficult to say.

In this scenario jon would be KING IN THE NORTH!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/28/2017 at 1:36 AM, Aemon Targaryen said:

LF at least knows/suspects that Lyanna loved Rhaegar and knows first-hand how rigid and honourable Ned is.  It doesn't seem a big leap give LF's ability to divine others' intentions and motives.

I agree with other posters that you simply can't be a targaryen or targaryen bastard and be king in the north.

Perhaps that's the even bigger irony -- that even though he is the iron throne's true heir, the discovery hinders him.

I.e. when Jon declares support for Daenerys, LF uses RLJ (or discovers and then uses RLJ, if he does not yet know) that as a basis for Jon to be rejected by the North, with the aim of LF and Sansa ruling the North and WF.

I think the hatred of rheagar is overplayed. And assuming this is true it means rhegar didn't kidnap and rape her but they ran away together. So the hatred for rhegar would be misplaced and everyone would know it. Also jon would throw his support in for dany because she has freaking dragons. The stark that knelt to aegon did so for the same reason. And once it is known that littlefinger helped get ned killed he will be lucky not to be killed. But the only way it would be more the littlefingers assumption is if bran comes back. And I don't think they will believe bran. But even if they didn't bran is a trueborn son of ned stark so he would be the heir

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, MakeThemBurn said:

I believe the whole Iron Throne will be gone in the end and Westeros will move closer to democracy. That is one of the reasons I think the revelation won't end up putting Jon on the throne. I think it's more about the themes of war and fire and ice. Rhaegar's and Lyanna's story is really tragic, leading to war and the deaths of thousands of people. It also foreshadows what is going to happen between Jon and Dany. I strongly believe the two will hook up, Dany will get pregnant and die at childbirth and once Jon dies his son will become fatherless just like him.

I also suspect their child will have a part to play in forging peace with the Others. The child of Jon and Dany will have strong magical blood in him and the Others are known to convert human children into White Walkers. Perhaps the child is sacrificed for peace. This would tie some plot strings from early seasons (Craster's keep) aswell as end some big ones, such as the entire Targaryen family line and dragons.

How can he forge a peace with the others? That makes no sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, snow is the man said:

 

What do you mean we saw "trail of jon pushing little finger against the wall"?

 

Also I have a hard time believing that alot of people will take bran seriously. He looks like a stark so there is no way to connect him to rhaegar. Also I doubt they would care because he is the last male stark as far as they know. He is well known and they already committed to him.

Jon is not naive. By pushing Littlefinger up against the wall, Jon can see that he's bullshitting. Ned pushed him against the wall in season 1 but thankfully for Jon, he does not have to deal with him later on.

Bran is a very powerful and can show his abilities to people. Sam will have a proof, Howland Reed and whateer is in the Crypts. Bran is now another male Stark present at the Winterfell and Jon is son of someone they despise for what he done in the past and their family too. Northerners are commited to him now but his parentage+ the fact he gave up the North from their point could change things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Cron said:

Interesting food for thought, but I don't think there will be any single "winner" at the end.

I've been predicting for years (since I first read ADWD almost six years ago) that the power will be divided at the end, in a "tri-archy" fashion, which explains why we were given all that information about the tri-archy through Tyrion's POV in ADWD.

The only question is...who will be the three rulers?? I think Tyrion for sure, Dany for sure, and the third is more difficult to say.

 Why would Tyrion be ruling a separate part of the 7 kingdoms to Dany?  Doesn't seem likely at present.

I'd be very interested if you could give some quotes or citations of Tyrion's triarchy talk.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, snow is the man said:

I think the hatred of rheagar is overplayed. And assuming this is true it means rhegar didn't kidnap and rape her but they ran away together. So the hatred for rhegar would be misplaced and everyone would know it. Also jon would throw his support in for dany because she has freaking dragons. The stark that knelt to aegon did so for the same reason. And once it is known that littlefinger helped get ned killed he will be lucky not to be killed. But the only way it would be more the littlefingers assumption is if bran comes back. And I don't think they will believe bran. But even if they didn't bran is a trueborn son of ned stark so he would be the heir

The bold above is true, but everything that has happened in Westeros for the last almost 20 years relates to the understanding that Rhaegar caused RR by kidnapping Lyanna .... and it is hard to see how the discovery of RLJ could be convincingly transmitted to the rest of the populace and lesser lords .... why should they believe Sam or Bran or whomever?  It doesn't seem likely to be able to turn the tide of popular opinion of the history of RR, which is now ingrained.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm thinking Jon finds out about R+L=J but keeps it quiet with the exception of Dany who at that point Jon will feel protective of and kneel to her.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, snow is the man said:

How can he forge a peace with the others? That makes no sense.

Do you really think this will end simply with the Others being slaughtered? Their whole point is to prove that people can't just kill everything and everyone as they please. They are death itself. Children of the forest created them because people killed them and now people are killing each other which has made them stronger than ever. Also, GRRM has been very critical of the ending of The lord of the ring pointing out that Aragorn would have had to commit a massacre to gain peace but that was never adressed. The others are here to stay and people will have to live with them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, snow is the man said:

Lyanna Mormont said Ned's blood but now we know Jon has Targaryen blood too. He's Rhaegar's and Lyanna's son, the guy who is hated in the North, count on the spoiler along with it and northern lords might not be happy about this including Sansa. Who then might be seen as someone worthy of leading them. Just a speculation mind you. Bran might know about nature of their relationship but some people won't believe it. There is a prejudice towards Targaryens.

Quote

There is a prejudice towards Targaryens.

Do you mean toward or against?

Whatever the nature of their relationship, Neither Rhaegar nor Lyanna are private persons.

He's the heir to Westeros, she's a lady of  House Stark.

Bran.

Well, we'll see how D&D play out Bran's revelations orindeed  if he ever makes any at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, MakeThemBurn said:

Do you really think this will end simply with the Others being slaughtered? Their whole point is to prove that people can't just kill everything and everyone as they please. They are death itself. Children of the forest created them because people killed them and now people are killing each other which has made them stronger than ever. Also, GRRM has been very critical of the ending of The lord of the ring pointing out that Aragorn would have had to commit a massacre to gain peace but that was never adressed. The others are here to stay and people will have to live with them.

I was thinking Jon kills the Night King undoing his magic but  even that is too LOTR style with destroying the ring and Saurons army dissolves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/29/2017 at 9:38 PM, snow is the man said:

I think the hatred of rheagar is overplayed. And assuming this is true it means rhegar didn't kidnap and rape her but they ran away together. So the hatred for rhegar would be misplaced and everyone would know it. Also jon would throw his support in for dany because she has freaking dragons. The stark that knelt to aegon did so for the same reason. And once it is known that littlefinger helped get ned killed he will be lucky not to be killed. But the only way it would be more the littlefingers assumption is if bran comes back. And I don't think they will believe bran. But even if they didn't bran is a trueborn son of ned stark so he would be the heir

About the bolded bit- what do you think will happen when it's known that Sansa had a hand in her father's death?

 

On 5/29/2017 at 11:47 PM, Lord Friendzone said:

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 30. 5. 2017 at 9:16 AM, KINGpanther said:

I'm thinking Jon finds out about R+L=J but keeps it quiet with the exception of Dany who at that point Jon will feel protective of and kneel to her.

Bran will tell all of them but not in the next season, because it has to impact other characters too. Jon and Sansa relationship has to be settled. Jon kneel or pledges this season, why doing it again in season 8?

22 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Do you mean toward or against?

Whatever the nature of their relationship, Neither Rhaegar nor Lyanna are private persons.

He's the heir to Westeros, she's a lady of  House Stark.

Bran.

Well, we'll see how D&D play out Bran's revelations orindeed  if he ever makes any at all.

The North has no love for Targaryens but in these times of the white walkers might not matter that much.

Rhaegar and Lyanna were private or trying to keep it as a secret, so nobody finds out. If Jon is who he is, it will impact him but also makes things difficult for him in the North.

Bran's importance will be hopefully highlighted but I have my doubts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/26/2017 at 4:02 PM, Gaz0680 said:

Quite the tinfoil theory.

1. Ned never had warg powers, either in book or show. The special talent of the Stark children is they are wargs. Ned was not.

2. Jon got Ghost while Ned was alive, so Ghost can't be a reincarnation of Ned.

Your theory makes no sense.

Not so tin-foily

 

Ned doesn't need warg powers in my theory.  Bran needs the two powers we already know he has -- warging and time travel.  

 

If Bran travels back, wargs into Ned, then takes on one of the white ravens that is nearby Ned when he is beheaded, then he could safely travel to the north where Ghost is.  Thus, Ghost being alive before Neds death is a requirement of the theory.  Ghost isn't a reincarnation of Ned, it is physically Ned himself, put there by Bran because of the knowledge he has on RLJ and the promise to Lyanna.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/28/2017 at 2:03 PM, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Furthermore, Varamyr Sixskins's chapter makes it clear that you can only escape death by warging if the person or animal you're warging into is nearby. Ghost was in the North when Ned died in King's Landing.

There's nothing suspicious at all about Ghost showing up every time Jon needs him to. He's his direwolf and they have a special bond; it's the same with all the Stark children and their direwolves. That's what they're for.

That's why I qualify the White Ravens, which were most certainly nearby when Ned died.  He looked right at them.

Ghost's connection to Jon and overall behavior is much different than the other direwolves.  First off, the fact he hasn't been held captive, or run off, or died is unique in and of itself.  The wolves are fiercely loyal, yes, but that has gotten them killed or trapped many times.  

Ghost is seemingly smarter and has much better timing than any of the other ones, which I would argue is because it's actually Ned.  Bran learns of R+L=J, and knows Jon's lack of knowledge about it, and knows only one way he can not only protect Jon (the true heir in the North as well as probably all of Westeros), but also help his dad fulfill his deathbed promise to Lyanna, is to permanently put Ned back by Jon's side.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/30/2017 at 1:44 AM, Aemon Targaryen said:

The bold above is true, but everything that has happened in Westeros for the last almost 20 years relates to the understanding that Rhaegar caused RR by kidnapping Lyanna .... and it is hard to see how the discovery of RLJ could be convincingly transmitted to the rest of the populace and lesser lords .... why should they believe Sam or Bran or whomever?  It doesn't seem likely to be able to turn the tide of popular opinion of the history of RR, which is now ingrained.

A very good point.

If, for example, an authentic marriage certificate between R and L appeared, even that would be no proof J is other than a Stark bastard, unless it can be proved J is a product of that marriage. In the event of that happening, yes, that would render the entire RR down to a bitter farcehis

However, Aerys disinherited Rhaegar and made Viserys his heir.

Or could documents be 'found' to countermand that royal decree?

And would it even matter?

There's been a change of dynasty since then.

Still, a dynasty without a clear heir.

Hmmm. What does the WOTR teach us happens next?

Time for the IB to step in?

 

In any case, Jon is KITN by proclamation, as was Robb. 

We all know how THAT ended.

 

 

 

16 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

 

  Hide contents

Bran will tell all of them but not in the next season, because it has to impact other characters too. Jon and Sansa relationship has to be settled. Jon kneel or pledges this season, why doing it again in season 8?

 

The North has no love for Targaryens but in these times of the white walkers might not matter that much.

Rhaegar and Lyanna were private or trying to keep it as a secret, so nobody finds out. If Jon is who he is, it will impact him but also makes things difficult for him in the North.

Quote

Bran's importance will be hopefully highlighted but I have my doubts.

 

Quote

The North has no love for Targaryens but in these times of the white walkers might not matter that much.

Then you mean to say, there's a prejudice against the Targs.

I'd say, against Targs and against dragons, too.

It'll be fascinating to see how these ancient hatreds play out.

Quote

Rhaegar and Lyanna were private or trying to keep it as a secret, so nobody finds out. If Jon is who he is, it will impact him but also makes things difficult for him in the North.

Sorry to be unclear.

I meant to say that neither R nor L are private persons in the sense that you or I might be, living our lives in a 'normal' way.

R and L play out their lives on the world's stage (wittily underlined in the Braavosi theatre scenes).

 

In other words

If your 23 year-old son seduces my 14 year-old daughter, it is  a private affair, one to be dealt with by law enforcement or my mafia connections.

If a 23 year-old heir to the Westeros throne seduces the 14 year-old daughter of House Stark, a girl betrothed to another lord, then it's a cause/excuse for rebellion.

 

There's no way R & L could have a 'secret' elopement, no matter how they might have tried. And in fact, King Aerys sent the Lord Commander of the KG to bring Rhaegar back to KL.

 

Quote

Bran's importance will be hopefully highlighted but I have my doubts.

I agree Bran is important. 

He's Lord Stark.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/30/2017 at 11:52 AM, MakeThemBurn said:

Do you really think this will end simply with the Others being slaughtered? Their whole point is to prove that people can't just kill everything and everyone as they please. They are death itself. Children of the forest created them because people killed them and now people are killing each other which has made them stronger than ever. Also, GRRM has been very critical of the ending of The lord of the ring pointing out that Aragorn would have had to commit a massacre to gain peace but that was never adressed. The others are here to stay and people will have to live with them.

This still makes no sense. The white walkers have been portrayed as the big evil. Are we know supposed to believe they are just poor misunderstood creatures who just want a hug? The numbers of white walkers is very small in comparison to the dead they raise. I think what will happen is the night king is killed and then the dead that make up the bulk of the army die (well permenately) and then they finish up the white walkers with dragon glass,valyrian steel,and fire.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/31/2017 at 8:18 AM, Prof. Cecily said:

About the bolded bit- what do you think will happen when it's known that Sansa had a hand in her father's death?

 

 

In the show she doesn't if I remember correctly. She begged for him to be spared but that was it. Your thinking of the books

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're quite right!

In the books this unhappy mistake of Sansa's can be considered a mirroring of ser alester Florent's 'treason' to Stannis, especially since neither Sansa nor ser Alester really seems to understand what they've done wrong.

Thanks for reminding us just how different the HBO production is from the book saga.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now