US Politics: Mueller....Mueller....Mueller...

[karaddin]

Having seen someone framing a guy stabbing two other guys on public transport when they tried to stop him abusing two women as "two guys attacked a man exercising his right to free speech"...I'm really not going to tell anyone they are being too reactionary if they're making serious "get out of the country" plans as an ethnic minority or as LGBTQI+. I hope you have credible options for doing just that if it hits the point where you activate those plans.

Also I'm truly astonished at the regularity with which some posters are able to "understand" where fascists are coming from, even though he doesn't they themselves don't share those views! At some point it starts to look like just maybe you do actually hold those views, but think you can more credibly defend them by proclaiming you don't.

[Free Northman Reborn]

1 hour ago, maarsen said:

Let me get this straight.  Bodyslamming a pushy little shit is allowed and even condoned in your circle. There is a pushy big shit occupying real estate in Washington. Do we have the right to bodyslam  him whenever he gets out of line?

I'm mostly commenting on how this reporter generates strong feelings of dislike when I listen to him speak. That's pretty much the extent of the motivation behind my reasoning.

Regarding the "bodyslamming" (which I didn't realise was a specific term, and seems geared to conjure images of Psycho Sid pile driving the Undertaker into the floor of a wrestling ring in terms of severity), I think its a storm in a teacup. Let the law take its course.

I view this on a somewhat similar level to Justin Bieber bashing a paparazzi photographer out of the way because he won't leave him alone. And the victim then going for a massive payday in supposed "damages suffered". Only in this case the payday is in service to his liberal political cause, rather than for monetary gain - although I don't discount the monetary civil claim either, with some grandiose gesture of donating the money to a charity or journalist support network or some such obvious political ploy to follow.

Anyway, this whole thing registers around a 0.1 on my 10 point significance Richter scale. In sharp contrast to the media coverage it gets. Was it Don Lemon who first apologized to the guy for making him "relive the event", before he replayed the sound recording? Like he was reliving some traumatic experience from the theatre of war or some such melodrama.

Give me a break.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

7 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I'm mostly commenting on how this reporter generates strong feelings of dislike when I listen to him speak. That's pretty much the extent of the motivation behind my reasoning.

Regarding the "bodyslamming" (which I didn't realise was a specific term, and seems geared to conjure images of Psycho Sid pile driving the Undertaker into the floor of a wrestling ring in terms of severity), I think its a storm in a teacup. Let the law take its course.

I view this on a somewhat similar level to Justin Bieber bashing a paparazzi photographer out of the way because he won't leave him alone. And the victim then going for a massive payday in supposed "damages suffered". Only in this case the payday is in service to his liberal political cause, rather than for monetary gain - although I adon't discount the monetary civil claim either, with some grandiose gesture of donating the money to a charity or journalist support network or some such obvious political ploy to follow.

Anyway, this whole thing registers around a 0.1 on my 10 point significance Richter scale. In sharp contrast to the media coverage it gets. Was it Don Lemon who first apologized to the guy for making him "relive the event", before he replayed the sound recording? Like he was reliving some traumatic experience from the theatre of war or some such melodrama.

Give me a break.

I think that this is hardly the first time he had encountered Jacobs, Jacobs has been part of a story on him and his companies previously. In most of these cases where someone goes and shoves a reporter its usually out of sheer frustration and inability to stop the constant pressure on them, and so animal instinct takes over. I think we've all been there. 

Having said that Gianforte seems to have some pretty strong views against the press in general which hardly help him in this case. 

But i agree with your point. I think its unhelpful to the discourse when every minor incident gets blown up to nuclear proportions. Its sad to see the left wing press turning into their own version of Fox News every chance they get. The more hysteria you get from one side the less chance the other side is going to have to communicate with you on a rational basis. Thats why there are 'sides'

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

5 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Frankly, listening to Ben Jacobs talk makes me want to punch him too. Such a whiner.

In one interview he is going on about how is is typing one handed as his shoulder feels a bit uncomfortable. Clearly laying down the foundation for some kind of civil claim for "loss of ability to do his work" due to the supposed grievous injury he suffered.

He is going to maximise the mileage from this. Excuse me while I wipe the tears from my eyes. Frankly, there are much bigger things to worry about in the world than one pushy little hipster reporter being dumped on his ass by some provincial politician.

Of course, it will probably move North Korea's nuclear missiles or China's South China Sea annexation off the top of CNN's headline priority list.

Red Herring.  

Just because there are other issues doesn't mean that a prospective member of the national legislature commiting assault and battery on a member of the press (who is simply doing his job) who is then elected to the national legislature is not something that should be of serious concern.  

Hitting people is without self-defense as a justification is wrong.  People Running for political office who then win elections after hitting people without self-defense as a justification is fucking crazy.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

17 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I'm mostly commenting on how this reporter generates strong feelings of dislike when I listen to him speak. That's pretty much the extent of the motivation behind my reasoning.

Oh, b.. please. So that conservative little snowflake had his safespace intruded, thus Gianforte was allowed to bodyslam the reporter. Why stop there? Why not go the full mile and claim he should have shot that little whiner. Anyway that post in its entirety has quite a bit to unpack.

19 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I view this on a somewhat similar level to Justin Bieber bashing a paparazzi photographer out of the way because he won't leave him alone.

Yes, pretty much the same, except no. A politician running for office feeling aggrevated by critical press (safespace snowflake and so on and so forth) is not the same as some bratty intoxicated popstar getting frustrated over the lack of privacy.

 

22 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

And the victim then going for a massive payday in supposed "damages suffered". Only in this case the payday is in service to his liberal political cause,

Aha, are we getting to root of your sympathy towards the aggressor here? You don't like the political cause of the victim, which needs explaining? What exactly is that? Freedom of the press? Pursuit of a profession without getting assaulted? What a despicable human being. Ah, I see you answered it already.

28 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

gesture of donating the money to a charity or journalist support network

Godamn hippie. Freedom of the press. Such a bloody leftie. I guess a donations to Fascist for Humanity Against a Free Press would be more to your liking, then?

29 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Was it Don Lemon who first apologized to the guy for making him "relive the event", before he replayed the sound recording? Like he was reliving some traumatic experience from the theatre of war or some such melodrama.

Of course anything short of a landmine exploding in your proximity does not register as a traumatic experience. I assume you are absolutely cool with people visiting you at work and assault you? No, drama or anything.

[OldGimletEye]

3 hours ago, Altherion said:

If the reporter's comments immediately prior to the scuffle were the entirety of Gianforte's cause, then of course there is no excuse. However, I think it is much, much more likely that those comments were merely the straw that broke the camel's back. I agree with you that Gianforte still should not have reacted as he did, but in that case it is understandable why he did it and why people would excuse him.

Do you have one iota of evidence that “it is much, much more likely that those comments were merely the straw that broke the camel's back. ” I don’t think you do.

But, if other words were exchanged between Jacobs and Gianforte, it is hard to imagine those words providing any justification for Gianforte’s actions.

You keep trying to pull, “I don’t condone Gianforte’s actions, but, but...” [insert horseshit reason here].

3 hours ago, Altherion said:

You are right that it does not exist in law. Should it? I suppose not, but this is contingent on the press behaving at least somewhat reasonably and at the moment they're not doing that.

And you haven’t provided any evidence that Jacob’s actions were unreasonable. Also, given our system of government we should expect political figures to be subjected to severe questioning and criticism. If Gianforte doesn’t like it, he can go do something else.

 

3 hours ago, Altherion said:

She is absolutely trying to justify his actions and I fully understand her even though I disagree. Imagine that the press followed everything a specific individual did and cast all of it in as negative a light as possible without running afoul of defamation laws. Under our system, the individual has no recourse against such treatment -- he or she can ignore them or ask friends (or pay neutrals) to propagate a competing perspective, but there's no way to stop the sludge. Would it be wrong to retaliate in the old fashioned way? I personally think that it would, but I can see the other side of the argument.

The only thing to “understand” about this conservative sort of person is that her logic took a wrong turn right around Albuquerque.

The rest of this paragraph is just ridiculous.

Under our system of government we expect politicians to be subjected to a great degree of scrutiny and criticism. Our system of government depends on it. If Gianforte can’t handle that, then he should have never run for office.  There is no seeing "the other side of the argument" here.

[Inigima]

FNR: In the immediate sense, I agree -- he committed assault, he's been charged, we have penalties for that.

For me the big concern is the acceptance and endorsement of the attack by Gianforte's supporters. I don't even care all that much that he won. What bothers me is the public support for violence towards journalists. Republicans are setting the stage for the end of a free press in America, and that's one step closer to dictatorship.

And for what? What fucking problem does anyone have with journalists? If a journalist truthfully reports a story about a member of a party you support doing something they shouldn't be, the problem isn't the report or the person making it, the problem is the person doing something they shouldn't be. Man-on-the-street conservatives fucking hate the media, but I have yet to hear a good reason why.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

http://heavy.com/news/2017/05/ben-jacobs-greg-gianforte-body-slammed-photos-audio-montana-guardian-twitter-broke-glasses-special-election-trump/

 

Quote

Although the Jacobs-Gianforte incident sparked over a question about healthcare, Jacobs has done some hard-hitting stories recently on Gianforte and the Russians.

In April, he wrote a story for the Guardian that reported of Gianforte: “A Republican congressional candidate has financial ties to a number of Russian companies that have been sanctioned by the US.” 

Jacobs and Gianforte have history.

[OldGimletEye]

Just now, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

http://heavy.com/news/2017/05/ben-jacobs-greg-gianforte-body-slammed-photos-audio-montana-guardian-twitter-broke-glasses-special-election-trump/

 

Jacobs and Gianforte have history.

And the point you would like to make here is what exactly?

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

16 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Do you have one iota of evidence that “it is much, much more likely that those comments were merely the straw that broke the camel's back. ” I don’t think you do.

 

 

[OldGimletEye]

Just now, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

 

And you think this evidence you posted makes the point that Gianforte's actions were okay? No it doesn't. It's utter horseshit by you.

You think you're being slick here. Trouble is, you ain't slick enough.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

1 minute ago, OldGimletEye said:

And you think this evidence you posted makes the point that Gianforte's actions were okay? No it doesn't. It's utter horseshit by you.

I'm giving you evidence that their incident wasn't the first interaction between them. I'm not justifying his actions either.  Maybe you wanna take a chill pill.

[OldGimletEye]

Just now, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I'm giving you evidence that their incident wasn't the first interaction between them. I'm not justifying his actions either.  Maybe you wanna take a chill pill.

And you might want to stop trying to sell bull crap. 

Interestingly enough, you didn't quote the part where I said:

Quote

But, if other words were exchanged between Jacobs and Gianforte, it is hard to imagine those words providing any justification for Gianforte’s actions.

 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

1 minute ago, OldGimletEye said:

And you might want to stop trying to sell bull crap. 

Interestingly enough, you didn't quote the part where I said:

 

Its not bullcrap, you asked for something, I provided it. 

[OldGimletEye]

Just now, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Its not bullcrap, you asked for something, I provided it. 

And gained what exactly? You gained nothing. Nada. Zilch.

In no way did your "evidence" provide any facts that would  justify Gianforte's actions.

So my question, why did @Altherion allege something about straws breaking camel's backs when said straws don't really make a difference to our judgments here?

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

5 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

And gained what exactly? You gained nothing. Nada. Zilch.

In no way did your "evidence" provide any facts that would  justify Gianforte's actions.

So my question, why did @Altherion allege something about straws breaking camel's backs when said straws don't really make a difference to our judgments here?

Because there is a difference about how you position a story about someone who randomly assaults a reporter who asks the wrong question, as opposed to someone who has had a sustained level of investigation into him and had major accusations levelled at him by one individual who then breaks under the strain and pushes that individual, who then also does his best to make the most of it.

Neither story is the whole truth, but you come at it from a different angle and the man doesn't appear to be the absolute monster everyone is suggesting. (he might still be a monster, and if you read his words he's clearly an arsehole)

[OldGimletEye]

Just now, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Because there is a difference about how you position a story about someone who randomly assaults a reporter who asks the wrong question, as opposed to someone who has had a sustained level of investigation into him and had major accusations levelled at him by one individual who then breaks under the strain and pushes that individual. 
 

No really there isn't. And now you're trying to pull an @Altherion here by doing the good ol' "I don't condone Gianforte's actions here, but,but,but.........."

Jacob's prior reporting doesn't change the result here.

Just now, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Neither story is the whole truth, but you come at it from a different angle and the man doesn't appear to be the absolute monster everyone is suggesting. (he might still be a monster, and if you read his words he's clearly an arsehole)

Whether Gianforte is a monster or is not a monster is immaterial to what happened here. What people are saying is that Gianforte's actions were wrong. And it is utter crap for conservative sorts of people to try to excuse his actions or equivocate when judging his actions.

It's one thing to say, "His actions were wrong, but I forgive him" as opposed to:

"Well he shouldn't have done that, but, but ,but......." There is no "buts" about it here.

[Gertrude]

7 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Neither story is the whole truth, but you come at it from a different angle and the man doesn't appear to be the absolute monster everyone is suggesting. (he might still be a monster, and if you read his words he's clearly an arsehole)

I don't think people are calling him a monster. I'm not, anyway. He hit a guy, and while that is unacceptable, it's the way he reacted after the fact that makes it really outrageous. His written statement was a flat out lie that blamed the reporter knowing all the while that there were several witnesses who could correct the record. He didn't comment on it at all until he was declared the winner and then issued his apology. (which ironically, mentioned taking responsibility for your actions, exactly the thing he didn't do). It was complete cowardice and he was getting cheered on for his actions. Have you watched the video where the crowd is literally cheering him and laughing at the fact that the reporter was assaulted? There are so many things about this situation that are disturbing. The fact that he hit a guy who was in his face is really one of the least troubling aspects of this whole mess.

And about the actual assault, think of it this way. If an employee had to listen to dissatisfied customers all day and finally snapped at the end of the day and decked one of them, would anyone be defending that employee? Of course not.

[LongRider]

33 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Because there is a difference about how you position a story about someone who randomly assaults a reporter who asks the wrong question,

Jacobs did not ask a 'wrong question' ffs.  Asking about Trumpcare's CBO score is a topical and appropriate question.  Seriously, only 'right' questions should be asked now?  Bullshit.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

2 minutes ago, Nasty LongRider said:

Jacobs did not ask a 'wrong question' ffs.  Asking about Trumpcare's CBO score is a topical and appropriate question.  Seriously, only 'right' questions should be asked now?  Bullshit.

My point was there are different ways to position to the story to get maximum impact. Was this a guy who randomly attacks the press because he believes he's above it and that a free press should be banned, or was it a guy who broke after constant harassment from press allegations by certain publications. Its a mix of both, and different people will see it from different perspectives.