US Politics: Mueller....Mueller....Mueller...

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

45 minutes ago, Ormond said:

The research does show that over 50% of Southerners do now disagree with many questions relating to this. However, you still get a much higher % of Southerners with these views than Northerners. Unfortunately I am unable at the moment to find exact figures because I am about to walk out the door to have dinner with a friend.

Have a great dinner.

I just made myself a grilled ham, cheese, tomato, and onion sandwich with fresh basil.  It was wonderful 

[Inigima]

The thing about the Gianforte situation is that it was a no-win for the reporter. What if he had fought back? The Republicans would be crying about his violence, to say nothing of how unprofessional it would be to get into a fistfight. What if he had put Gianforte in the hospital? Republicans would be calling for his execution.

As for what's normal in the "rural west," fucking spare me. Gianforte was born in San Diego, moved to the Philly area when he was young, went to college and grad school in New Jersey and lived there for years. My balls are as Montanan as Greg Gianforte. He's a do-nothing candyass who bullies people smaller than him, and if he has a problem with me saying that he can look me up.

[OldGimletEye]

Just now, Inigima said:

The thing about the Gianforte situation is that it was a no-win for the reporter. What if he had fought back? The Republicans would be crying about his violence, to say nothing of how unprofessional it would be to get into a fistfight.

Something just tells me had Jacobs opened up a can of whoop ass on Gianforte, after being assaulted, by him (Gianforte), Republicans  and conservatives would be singing a different tune. Like, Kumbaya and then deploring the "violence by the left."

[Paladin of Ice]

42 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Something just tells me had Jacobs opened up a can of whoop ass on Gianforte, after being assaulted, by him (Gianforte), Republicans  and conservatives would be singing a different tune. Like, Kumbaya and then deploring the "violence by the left."

See also the "so much for the tolerant left" meme.

Had Jacobs fought, no doubt the exact same spin about the evil, biased liberal press hounding poor, put upon, all-American conservatives would be pushed harder, and the same people using that pathetic spin would also be saying that the press is so hostile to conservatives that a member of the press actually crossed the line into getting into a fist fight with a conservative running for congress. Gianforte would be matyr and saint within hours, and any proof that he started things would be ignored to talk about the unprofessional, hostile, and anti-conservative/anti-American actions of the reporter. (Anti-American because not only is he a representative of the press, aka an enemy of the people according to the president and much of the Republican party, but a foreign newspaper at that!)

[Dr. Pepper]

Yeah, but now there need not be spin.  A journalist merely asking a relevant question now serves as 'proof' of the harassing intolerant left. Like, I kinda wish Jacobs had punched back because that would be better than this thing where a politician can beat a reporter and be cheered for it.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Yeah, but now there need not be spin.  A journalist merely asking a relevant question now serves as 'proof' of the harassing intolerant left. Like, I kinda wish Jacobs had punched back because that would be better than this thing where a politician can beat a reporter and be cheered for it.

Nah, I don't think you want to go down that road. Say Jacobs gets up and goes upside Gianforte's head, then Gianforte proceeds to seriously tune him up? Like puts him in the hospital. At that point it's arguably self-defense and the story escalates to a point where things get really ugly. It wouldn't have changed the cheering aspect of this at all, even if Jacob's had knocked Gianforte out. It would just be a different group of people cheering. We need to de-escalate this shit, not exacerbate it. Jacobs did the right thing. He handled himself like an adult.

[karaddin]

Yet you still see people in this thread either normalising or outright lionising Gianfortes actions. This isn't occurring in isolation and it's going to lead to further violence and threats against reporters, which has been building since Trump used them to whip up a frenzy at his campaign rallies. It's also going to lead to more domestic terrorism like the murders in Portland that I'm a bit shocked aren't being discussed here - are they even being reported? Good thing the FBI was instructed to have less scrutiny on domestic white supremacy groups!

[Dr. Pepper]

2 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Nah, I don't think you want to go down that road. Say Jacobs gets up and goes upside Gianforte's head, then Gianforte proceeds to seriously tune him up? Like puts him in the hospital. At that point it's arguably self-defense and the story escalates to a point where things get really ugly. It wouldn't have changed the cheering aspect of this at all, even if Jacob's had knocked Gianforte out. It would just be a different group of people cheering. We need to de-escalate this shit, not exacerbate it. Jacobs did the right thing. He handled himself like an adult.

I don't care how Jacobs handled himself.  I care about what sort of conversation is had and what precedents are set.  In one, Jacobs defends himself and there's enough conflicting witness reports that it would be really easy to not know exactly what happened and everything in the aftermath would be completely different.  In the other, what we're dealing with, we know exactly what happened and the outcome is horrific.  Every eyewitness and now even Gianforte himself corroborates Jacobs' story.  A reporter asked a simple relevant question, was subsequently attacked by a would-be politician who went on to be rewarded with a seat in congress.  No consequences (not getting into that argument again that $500 is an actual meaningful consequence, or even a civil lawsuit).  Worse, there is cheering among the base, the speaker of the house said G should issue is nice wittle apology, state governor's saying they should escalate to shooting reporters that ask questions they don't like.  FFS, this is a huge fucking deal.  A scary fucking deal.

3 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Yet you still see people in this thread either normalising or outright lionising Gianfortes actions. This isn't occurring in isolation and it's going to lead to further violence and threats against reporters, which has been building since Trump used them to whip up a frenzy at his campaign rallies. It's also going to lead to more domestic terrorism like the murders in Portland that I'm a bit shocked aren't being discussed here - are they even being reported? Good thing the FBI was instructed to have less scrutiny on domestic white supremacy groups!

I keep meaning to get to that, but it's like there's just too much shit.  

 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

6 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Yet you still see people in this thread either normalising or outright lionising Gianfortes actions. This isn't occurring in isolation and it's going to lead to further violence and threats against reporters, which has been building since Trump used them to whip up a frenzy at his campaign rallies. It's also going to lead to more domestic terrorism like the murders in Portland that I'm a bit shocked aren't being discussed here - are they even being reported? Good thing the FBI was instructed to have less scrutiny on domestic white supremacy groups!

Yeah, I've been following that story on Twitter a bit. Tragic and yet somewhat heartening at the same time.

 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

I don't care how Jacobs handled himself.  I care about what sort of conversation is had and what precedents are set.  In one, Jacobs defends himself and there's enough conflicting witness reports that it would be really easy to not know exactly what happened and everything in the aftermath would be completely different.  In the other, what we're dealing with, we know exactly what happened and the outcome is horrific.  Every eyewitness and now even Gianforte himself corroborates Jacobs' story.  A reporter asked a simple relevant question, was subsequently attacked by a would-be politician who went on to be rewarded with a seat in congress.  No consequences (not getting into that argument again that $500 is an actual meaningful consequence, or even a civil lawsuit).  Worse, there is cheering among the base, the speaker of the house said G should issue is nice wittle apology, state governor's saying they should escalate to shooting reporters that ask questions they don't like.  FFS, this is a huge fucking deal.  A scary fucking deal.

It's too early to say what the consequences for Gianforte will be at this point. His seat is up again next year, I think. That he won this particular election might have been in spite of this occurrence, not because of it. Had it happened a week earlier, I suspect we'd have had a different result. You should care about how Jacobs handled himself. Most reasonable people see Gianforte as the villain here, as well they should. Jacobs was clearly the victim. There is no reasonable argument against this point of view. 

[Dr. Pepper]

1 minute ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

It's too early to say what the consequences for Gianforte will be at this point. His seat is up again next year, I think. That he won this particular election might have been in spite of this occurrence, not because of it. Had it happened a week earlier, I suspect we'd have had a different result. You should care about how Jacobs handled himself. Most reasonable people see Gianforte as the villain here, as well they should. Jacobs was clearly the victim. There is no reasonable argument against this point of view. 

Reasonable arguments don't matter for shit.  Have you seen the monstrosity sitting in the white house?

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Just now, Dr. Pepper said:

Reasonable arguments don't matter for shit.  Have you seen the monstrosity sitting in the white house?

So let's go bodyslam that motherfucker? Reasonable argument is what we have as a civilized society. Rule of law. You don't get to go around physically attacking those who disagree with you, and I believe this will ultimately play out in Mr. Jacob's favor, if he pursues it.

[Dr. Pepper]

Just now, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

So let's go bodyslam that motherfucker? Reasonable argument is what we have as a civilized society. Rule of law. You don't get to go around physically attacking those who disagree with you, and I believe this will ultimately play out in Mr. Jacob's favor, if he pursues it.

Sigh. It's pretty clear that I'm against bodyslamming reporters.  You don't need to convince me that attacking a journalist for doing his job is a huge problem. I'm saying that reasonable arguments aren't mattering to a significant portion of the electorate.  I don't care if this plays out in Jacobs' favor.  I care whether or not this plays out in the public's favor.  You should, too.  The things that are becoming normalized since the election are terrifying.  This is yet another.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Just now, Dr. Pepper said:

Sigh. It's pretty clear that I'm against bodyslamming reporters.  You don't need to convince me that attacking a journalist for doing his job is a huge problem. I'm saying that reasonable arguments aren't mattering to a significant portion of the electorate.  I don't care if this plays out in Jacobs' favor.  I care whether or not this plays out in the public's favor.  You should, too.  The things that are becoming normalized since the election are terrifying.  This is yet another.

My point with that statement is that you also have to be against bodyslamming Trump or bodyslamming Gianforte, or bodyslamming anybody.

[Dr. Pepper]

4 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

My point with that statement is that you also have to be against bodyslamming Trump or bodyslamming Gianforte, or bodyslamming anybody.

Nope, your attempts at pretending to be fair and balanced don't fly.  They are worthless and miss the point entirely.  They also tend to be quite disgusting.  Not all punches in the face are the same, but I'm sure you'll go off on a dozen posts trying to pretend they are.  Have fun.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

7 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Nope, your attempts at pretending to be fair and balanced don't fly.  They are worthless and miss the point entirely.  They also tend to be quite disgusting.  Not all punches in the face are the same, but I'm sure you'll go off on a dozen posts trying to pretend they are.  Have fun.

Yeah, you're right. It's only unlawful violence when the person committing the act is your ideological enemy. I'm truly clueless. It has nothing to do with fairness or balance. It's simple rule of law. We cannot function as a society without it Full stop.

[karaddin]

26 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Yeah, I've been following that story on Twitter a bit. Tragic and yet somewhat heartening at the same time.

 

Yeah Twitter is where I've been following it as well, I was wondering if maybe mainstream news networks weren't which explained the lack of mention here. I've seen that Fox unsurprisingly buried the story both on the website and in reporting it as a simple stabbing.

Dr P - I get that attrition I saw the story breaking just after reading this thread and seeing Ini's, WF's and your comments about possibilities of leaving the country. It just really solidified to me that that point is approaching at terrifying speed.

[Dr. Pepper]

3 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Yeah Twitter is where I've been following it as well, I was wondering if maybe mainstream news networks weren't which explained the lack of mention here. I've seen that Fox unsurprisingly buried the story both on the website and in reporting it as a simple stabbing.

Dr P - I get that attrition I saw the story breaking just after reading this thread and seeing Ini's, WF's and your comments about possibilities of leaving the country. It just really solidified to me that that point is approaching at terrifying speed.

Fox News reporting it as a simple stabbing is as outrageous as someone trying to say one bodyslam is the same as the other.  Motivations and outcomes definitely matter.  I'm not sure that this particular stabbing has been on the news as much as one would suspect.  There seems to be a bit of a saturation issue, at least with the news I tend to pick up.  So many white supremacist attacks, mixed in with verbal white supremacists assaults on people in stores, planes, or other public spaces.  And of course there's everything else.  

I can't leave because I'm guardian to kids who I legally can't even take out of the state overnight.  I definitely wonder if I'd be packing my bags right this minute if the kids weren't a factor.  I'm in a privileged position where I have the funds and also skills that would make it easy to move elsewhere.  I've already lived and worked abroad so I'm familiar with the process in various countries.  

[The Anti-Targ]

Of course people support Gianforte. Probably over half the population think fists are an acceptable response to harsh words. So if someone is pissing you ooff for saying something you don't like it's OK to hit them to shut them up.

This is acceptable behaviour to a larger number of people.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

35 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Fox News reporting it as a simple stabbing is as outrageous as someone trying to say one bodyslam is the same as the other.  

Damn. It appears I'm fresh out of fucks. None to give at this point. Will have to pick this up after I get a chance to make a trip to the Fuck Store.