US Politics: Mueller....Mueller....Mueller...

[all swedes are racist]

@karaddin, yeah, i've been trying wrap my head around the terrorist attack in portland. that, along with the crazy tampa story, wondering if these right wing white supremacist events warrant their own thread

[karaddin]

Well with the reduced law enforcement resources being devoted to them, its sadly likely to become more topical not less.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

17 minutes ago, commiedore said:

@karaddin, yeah, i've been trying wrap my head around the terrorist attack in portland. that, along with the crazy tampa story, wondering if these right wing white supremacist events warrant their own thread

Haven't seen anything about Tampa, but the Portland story certainly warrants a thread, methinks.

[DireWolfSpirit]

9 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

Republicans condone sexual harassment, assault, instigating assault, forcing doctors to lie to patients about reproduction, forcing women to undergo unwanted medical procedures, making birth control difficult to obtain, hating women's who enjoy sex, setting restrictions on consensual sex, discriminating against homosexuals, rape, making general medical care unavailable to anyone who isn't rich, or pricing people out, letting insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies explode prices, removing drug oversight and disease monitoring, cutting taxes for extremely wealthy people, removing toxic waste dumping laws, removing financial and ethics oversight, letting guns be sold to the mentally ill and domestic abusers, giving very long sentences for drug possession and keeping prisoners in for profit prisons enabling a slave factory system, controlling science showing climate change and problems with pesticides, pro conflict of interest, religion paid for in schools with public money, no debt relief for students, corrupt police or politicians, policing transgender people in bathrooms, restricting protest and not cooperating with free press.

Republicans are still hard on drunk drivers and underage drinking unless you are in a fraternity.

Did I miss something?

 

Well thats a good start but unfortunately theres much more we can still add, for instance:

Republicans are for privatizing our public lands, doing away with National Monuments, Wildlife Refuges, drilling for oil in environmentally fragile ecosystems and in scenic waterways and coastal areas. 

Republicans are against OSHA, against enforcing measures that make the workplace a safer environment. Republicans oppose protections for workers pensions, Republicans want to repeal any measure that benefits labor like Davis Bacon or the Jones Act. Republicans oppose any measures that benefit consumers and want to eliminate any consumer advocacy and repeal the work Elizabeth Warren and Ralph Nader have advocated for.

Republicans are simply agents of evil when you consider their cumulative agenda.

[Altherion]

7 hours ago, Ormond said:

However, I believe it is personally important in the modern world to proclaim that cultural values which condone physical violence as a normal response to verbal insult should be condemned, just as we now condemn values which condone slavery or honor killings of women who violate patriarchal norms. Obviously there will have to be several more generations to overcome that -- this isn't a "quick fix" here.

I am not sure that it will fade. To overcome the culture of honor, it must be replaced with something else. In most Western countries, an attempt was made to replace it with a culture of law and this served to diminish the culture of honor for a time... but it only works if people believe that the law is more or less just and uniformly applied. Given that we're now in a society where "The system is rigged!" is an effective political slogan, I expect the culture of honor to make a bit of a comeback.

[Sivin]

 

4 hours ago, Inigima said:

The thing about the Gianforte situation is that it was a no-win for the reporter. What if he had fought back? The Republicans would be crying about his violence, to say nothing of how unprofessional it would be to get into a fistfight. What if he had put Gianforte in the hospital? Republicans would be calling for his execution.

As for what's normal in the "rural west," fucking spare me. Gianforte was born in San Diego, moved to the Philly area when he was young, went to college and grad school in New Jersey and lived there for years. My balls are as Montanan as Greg Gianforte. He's a do-nothing candyass who bullies people smaller than him, and if he has a problem with me saying that he can look me up.

I wish there could be some kind of charity event where some manly anti-queer Republican would agree to step into an octagon with me. I cannot think of a single one I'd be afraid to go toe-to-toe with.

I mean, maybe Schwarzenegger. If only at the thought of retroactively making the Terminator less badass in my memories.

Like, they're so manly... I'm sure they'd be up to backing their tough guy statements by subduing a hideous tranny right?

1 hour ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Yeah, but now there need not be spin.  A journalist merely asking a relevant question now serves as 'proof' of the harassing intolerant left. Like, I kinda wish Jacobs had punched back because that would be better than this thing where a politician can beat a reporter and be cheered for it.

 

37 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

It's too early to say what the consequences for Gianforte will be at this point. His seat is up again next year, I think. That he won this particular election might have been in spite of this occurrence, not because of it. Had it happened a week earlier, I suspect we'd have had a different result. You should care about how Jacobs handled himself. Most reasonable people see Gianforte as the villain here, as well they should. Jacobs was clearly the victim. There is no reasonable argument against this point of view. 

 

35 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Reasonable arguments don't matter for shit.  Have you seen the monstrosity sitting in the white house?

 

32 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

So let's go bodyslam that motherfucker? Reasonable argument is what we have as a civilized society. Rule of law. You don't get to go around physically attacking those who disagree with you, and I believe this will ultimately play out in Mr. Jacob's favor, if he pursues it.

 

28 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Sigh. It's pretty clear that I'm against bodyslamming reporters.  You don't need to convince me that attacking a journalist for doing his job is a huge problem. I'm saying that reasonable arguments aren't mattering to a significant portion of the electorate.  I don't care if this plays out in Jacobs' favor.  I care whether or not this plays out in the public's favor.  You should, too.  The things that are becoming normalized since the election are terrifying.  This is yet another.

 

13 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Yeah, you're right. It's only unlawful violence when the person committing the act is your ideological enemy. I'm truly clueless. It has nothing to do with fairness or balance. It's simple rule of law. We cannot function as a society without it Full stop.

As one who would slit my throat for the Republic, I'm sorry ME but reason and decency have fled this country. You cite balance. And fairness.

The left is far from blameless for the state of America and it's political atmosphere, but the right is actively encouraging the base elements of our society to support fascist practice and being rewarded for their efforts.

And this civilized society you speak of? Where is its power sir? What has its silent condemnation of anti-press, anti-science, anti-acceptance, anti-semetic, anti-black, anti-tolerance, anti-nonviolence, anti-society, anti-government, anti-responsibility, and anti-truth accomplished?

An unhinged fascist wannabe sits at the highest level of our government, immune to any recourse achievable by those who have an incentive to oppose him while he endangers the nation literally at a whim. And if he falls from power? What then? His successors have been emboldened by his pathetic flailing that they perceive as 'power' and 'dominance'. The majority of Americans oppose him, oppose his supporters. You and others repeat this fact endlessly to the effect of lighting a match in an attempt to stave off the encroaching darkness. But the majority of Americans have supposedly opposed these figures for some time now according to my timepiece. And yet here they are, with more power than they've had in nigh upon a decade.

Meanwhile the standards for their civility drops by the hour while they mutilate the rotted corpse of what was once a republic that required its leaders to at least make gestures to the people they professed to serve.

But the fight is lost. The matchbox is rapidly becoming empty and the light will soon have shown its last upon the poor, horrific, edifice of our failed society.

I for one, and perhaps the good Dr., was not made to sit quietly and bemoan the course of events. I'll rage and fight to the final breath. Forgive me if I cannot stomach the thought of impotent protestations as acceptable in lieu of sinking to the victors' level in an attempt for some measure of vain satisfaction.

[ThinkerX]

2 hours ago, commiedore said:

@karaddin, yeah, i've been trying wrap my head around the terrorist attack in portland. that, along with the crazy tampa story, wondering if these right wing white supremacist events warrant their own thread

Part of an overall trend towards violence, I fear. 

 

About ten years back, there was a 'fight club' type event, tickets, drinks, and what not with it at an abandoned grocery store in my area.  I thought it a one off, a way for former high school athletes to show they were still tough.  It drew a fair sized crowd.  The event repeated six months later.  Ok, so its a biannual event.  No big deal. Lot's of tough guy types hereabouts.  Except...

 

...its no longer biannual.  Instead, its dang near bimonthly, and the venue isn't an abandoned grocery store, but our local sports complex, which normally hosts hockey games.  Women are getting into it as well.  Local bands perform before - and sometimes during the bouts, which are brutal, bare knuckle affairs.  And this is small town Alaska.  Maybe 20,000 in the whole area.  A celebration of violence.  People becoming accustomed to thinking of violence as an acceptable solution. 

  

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

WF,

Where are you going with this?  You seem to be advocating violence as a reasonable alternative in dealing with Trump and his supporters.  To take this to an extreme interpretation are you seeking to imply violence is a proper way to dissuade my parents and MiL from supporting Trump and the people around him?

I see the use of violence as limited to self defense.  Are you saying otherwise?

[ljkeane]

Trump's stupid way of shaking hands is becoming international news and is apparently something world leaders are preparing for. This is a bizarre world we're living in.

[The guy from the Vale]

1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

WF,

Where are you going with this?  You seem to be advocating violence as a reasonable alternative in dealing with Trump and his supporters.  To take this to an extreme interpretation are you seeking to imply violence is a proper way to dissuade my parents and MiL from supporting Trump and the people around him?

I see the use of violence as limited to self defense.  Are you saying otherwise?

Since WF is trans, I think her advocacy for violence is precisely a form of self defense in this case. Consider the political climate, Scot, and compare it to what various LGBT, black, latino or jewish posters have said about considering leaving the US.

[all swedes are racist]

8 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Haven't seen anything about Tampa, but the Portland story certainly warrants a thread, methinks.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/suspect-tells-police-he-killed-roommates-for-disrespecting-his-muslim-faith/2324756

[OldGimletEye]

Just now, theguyfromtheVale said:

Since WF is trans, I think her advocacy for violence is precisely a form of self defense in this case. Consider the political climate, Scot, and compare it to what various LGBT, black, latino or jewish posters have said about considering leaving the US.

I just have to say, this seems earily close to Dubya’s pre-emptive strike idea.

For obvious reason, I’m not a fan. I have a real problem with the idea of pre-emptive violence and then trying to spin it as self defense.

Despite all the bad shit going on in this country right now, I don’t think it’s a particularly swell idea for the left to start the Spanish Civil War in this country. Nobody, wins in that situation.

And don’t get me wrong here. I’m not exactly a turn the other cheek sort of person.  Take Jacobs for instance. In my view, he had every right to give Gianforte the old backhand. I mean if somebody puts their hands on you, in a violent manner, and they initiated it, their ass is kind of bought and paid for in my opinion.

Now I can truly understand many on the left’s frustration with what’s going on this country. Also, I’ll also add, that it seems to me that lately that it’s become a thing with conservative sorts of people to joke, threaten, or make statements about shooting liberals. Take for instance, that coward Ted Nugent, or the knucklehead down in Texas, or that idiot, a few years back, that talked about “Second Amendment Remedies”.

And that stuff truly gets my goat. A few years back, I heard a conservative sort of person, I know, talk about shooting Obama. I called that person a chickenshit coward right in front of his face, with other conservative sorts of people present, and told him if he wanted to do violence to people of the liberal persuasion, he’d could start with me. He didn’t take me up on the offer, as I believe he estimated that there would be a high probability that my very large foot would promptly get implanted right up his ass.

So I get the annoyance and anger.

That said, I don’t believe the idea of pre-emptive violence, as means of self-defense, is wise, prudent, or ethical.

[The guy from the Vale]

@OldGimletEye I don't think we disagree on this. I believe initiating violence is almost always the wrong action to take, and indeed I think e.g. punching Spencer was the wrong thing to do, in spite of just how vile a being he is. It's just that I can see where WF and other minority members are coming from when they are preparing for the worst, considering just how widespread neofascist thought has become in the last few years.

[OldGimletEye]

Just now, theguyfromtheVale said:

It's just that I can see where WF and other minority members are coming from when they are preparing for the worst, considering just how widespread neofascist thought has become in the last few years.

Well I certainly don't expect them to take on iota of shit or any type of threats to their well being. And if the day comes where these neofascist jack asses go after them and shit hits the fan, I know which side I'm on.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 hours ago, theguyfromtheVale said:

Since WF is trans, I think her advocacy for violence is precisely a form of self defense in this case. Consider the political climate, Scot, and compare it to what various LGBT, black, latino or jewish posters have said about considering leaving the US.

Being the first to use violence is what Bush advocated under the "Bush Doctrine".  How did that work out?

When you are attacked self defense is proper.  Initiating violence without violence being offered is not okay.

Let me ask this... is "The Doctor" wrong here?

 

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

53 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

I just have to say, this seems earily close to Dubya’s pre-emptive strike idea.

For obvious reason, I’m not a fan. I have a real problem with the idea of “pre-emptive” violence and then trying to spin it as self defense.

Despite all the bad shit going on this country right now, I don’t think it’s a particularly swell idea for the  left to start the Spanish Civil War in this country. Nobody, wins in that situation.

And don’t get me wrong here. I’m not exactly a turn the other cheek sort of person.  Take Jacobs for instance. In my view, he had every right to give Gianforte the old backhand. I mean if somebody put their hands on you in a violent manner, and they initiated it, their ass is kind of bought and paid for in my opinion.

Now I can truly understand many on the left’s frustration with what’s going on this country. Also, I’ll also add, that it seems to me that lately that it’s become a thing with conservative sorts of people to joke, threaten, or make statements about shooting liberals. Take for instance, that coward Ted Nugent, or the knucklehead down in Texas, or that idiot, a few years back, that talked about “Second Amendment Remedies”.

And that stuff truly gets my goat. A few years back, I heard a conservative sort of person, I know, talk about shooting Obama. I called that person a chickenshit coward right in front of his face, with other conservative sorts of people present, and told him if he wanted to do violence to people of the liberal persuasion, he’d could start with me. He didn’t take me up on the offer, as I believe he estimated that there would be a high probability that my very large foot would promptly get implanted right up his ass.

So I get the annoyance and anger.

That said, I don’t believe the idea of pre-emptive violence, as means of self-defense, is wise, prudent, or ethical.

I agree with everything you've just said.

[The guy from the Vale]

Scot, I agree with you. We just apparently disagree how likely violence against e.g. the LGBT community is in the coming months and years, and what the appropriate response of minorities to people in power threatening them should be. Because those threats are actions, too, enabling the violence to come.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

 I was thinking about what I would consider fair punishment for Gianforte to be in this instance. What I would absolutely love to see is community service. Gianforte on the side of the highway in an orange jumper for a couple of weekends, with the condition that he has to grant Jacobs a 10-15 minute interview while he's performing the service. 

On top of that, I hope Jacob's pursues a civil personal injury case. 

[Zorral]

17 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Ormond,

That does exist but I, and many others, think that is crap.

Gianforte was born in CA,  is from PA.  He went to Montana in the 1990'w because it was a cheaper to own and run his tech company there, than in PA.  It was also an easier and cheaper place for a political campaign than where he's been living, or a state, like, o say, NJ.  He also owns a lot of investment in sanctioned by the US russian companies.

All a long-winded way of saying this has nothing, nada, to do with any twisted sense of 'honor.'  Nor did Preston's beating of Sumner, otherwise he wouldn't have run away from a duel with somebody who could actually stand up and fight back the way he did.

 

 

 

[Mexal]

Putin couldn't ask for anything better from Trump at this point besides the removing of sanctions.