US Politics: Mueller....Mueller....Mueller...

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

9 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

And it was still pretty effective, wasn't it? More to the point, getting heavy political change has almost never happened without a major actual violent conflict, and you can count the nonviolent transitions of power on one hand. 

 We have a nonviolent transition of power in this country every 4-8 years. Tribalism was pretty effective in the context of authoritarian, totalitarian forms of government, sure, but that's not what we have, and I don't think it's what you or anyone else here wants.

[Kalbear]

6 minutes ago, Darzin said:

I would say the gay, women's and civ rights, movements are all pertinent examples of non violent change. 

The women's rights movement was pretty violent (look up hair pins). The gay rights movement less so - but it had been less effective, and is still not particularly great right now. 

The civil rights movement was incredibly violent at times, and if it wasn't for LBJ chances are good that it wouldn't have succeeded at all. 

Just now, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 We have a nonviolent transition of power in this country every 4-8 years. Tribalism was pretty effective in the context of authoritarian, totalitarian forms of government, sure, but that's not what we have, and I don't think it's what you or anyone else here wants.

The country was founded on an actual uprising, however, and that turned out pretty well. 

Furthermore, having violent unrest is not the same thing as an actual civil war, and the notion that you can either only support full-on civil war or peaceful legal protest is obviously spurious. 

Let's be clear: I don't think a civil war is a good idea. At the same time, I am not going to dismiss violence as an effective tool in the toolbox, and specifically it's useful when laws themselves are against you as are institutions. When the system is simply failing you, asking people to obey the system is basically telling them to sit down and shut up and take their injustice. 

[Darzin]

7 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

he country was founded on an actual uprising, however, and that turned out pretty well. 

Furthermore, having violent unrest is not the same thing as an actual civil war, and the notion that you can either only support full-on civil war or peaceful legal protest is obviously spurious. 

Let's be clear: I don't think a civil war is a good idea. At the same time, I am not going to dismiss violence as an effective tool in the toolbox, and specifically it's useful when laws themselves are against you as are institutions. When the system is simply failing you, asking people to obey the system is basically telling them to sit down and shut up and take their injustice. 

Fair enough.

[Zorral]

46 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

And the Nazis have started with easier targets in the US: Muslims and immigrants. How many Muslims are there in Trump's cabinet? 

There were also bombings, riots, killings, targetings, armed people in the streets. Those were certainly nonviolent, but those weren't the only ones, and arguably those weren't the things that drove LBJ to sign anything. 

My point is that telling people to 'enforce the law' when the law itself is hugely unjust is a perfectly entitled piece of bullshit. What is being pointed out is that the law itself is oppressive most of the time. The system, the standards, who is targeted and why, who is given legal status and who isn't. Appealing to 'just enforce the law more' doesn't help when part of the problem is that the law is horrible, as written and especially as practiced.

Local and state elected officials ignored this shit too, left and right, particularly in places like Texas. They got fired by local and state officials. And as I pointed out, it took Federal threat of force to enforce the actual law against states which did not want to desegregate; how would appealing to local and states help there? Did appealing to local enforcement help in Arpaio's district? In Clarke's?

The problem isn't Federal. The problem is that a whole lot of local and state forces are really, really bad. That there is also no counterbalance against them at the federal level is a problem and makes it worse, but when you're specifically wanting to fight against the injustice of the legal system telling people to just appeal to prosecutors is a special kind of nothingburger.

  

In the meantime by blocking the slots where they are to be filled by federal appointment, which includes judges all over the country  -- which the rethugs have been doing all along, through Obama's administrations, and now in t***pitler regimen, to actively remove people and then deliberately not fill the positions at all -- where is the government of any kind then?  It's cops, private armies -- i.e. all armed forces.  You sure do see this in many places in this country.  And we all, women and any other others, particularly African Americans see it.

To attempt to separate all these issues into separate problems is again, a way of pretending what is there is not there -- and what isn't there, such as justice, rules of laws, etc, -- are not there.

To say that the refusals to hand over dox, to show tax reforms, to host the world golfing blahblahblah at his still privately owned golf resort, repeatedly lie about russian connections among himself, his family, his advisors and what they did in the elections are not connected to this is -- just incomprehensible.  

 

[Zorral]

43 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

As Darzin posited above, using non-violent protests as an example to prop up a defense for violent response to speech that you don't agree with is suspect at best.

 

To the bolded bit, the vast majority of that human history consisted of tribes exercising a might makes right policy over their less potent neighbors. 

 

Darzin has conveniently forgotten that the non-violent protests were violently protested -- and by far more people who didn't even have the excuse of official position to do so -- not cops, not the National Guard.  And they literally killed people who weren't protesting -- such as Emmett Tillman, then were in collusion with those very same local and state officials to lie and never be punished.

All of this is going on right now.  And it went on in the run-up to the War of Southern Aggression -- which was declared by them, don't forget, and which they were waging in a shooting manner for years already in Kansas, Nebraska and Missouri, while others said, let the laws take their course (most of them were slaveowners).

[Zorral]

43 minutes ago, Darzin said:

I would say the gay, women's and civ rights, movements are all pertinent examples of non violent change. 

You don't know much of the history then, of the violence to which all these people were subjected.  And women still didn't get the vote, in either England or this nation. Not to mention what happened when the non-violent protests and activisism -- meaning taking the violence and not fighting back -- of African Americans changed.

[Toth]

The left can't win through a revolution, after all, the right has all the guns.

But they cannot fight back through complacency either.

I've been reading this thread for quite a while and come to the conclusion that some people tend to play down the threat-level that has currently the political atmosphere of the USA in its grip. Please. Step back. Consider the situation in the US. Consider not just the nut-jobs in charge, but also the willful denial of those who put them there and what this would mean for the future of your democracy if the next president after Trump is someone who is not a narcissistic idiot, but someone with an agenda and who finds a thoroughly dismantled state to do with as he pleases. People like Pence and Bannon, who are already busy dismantling your state while Trump serves as bombastic chaff. They would still praise and defend such a person to the very end. Because they have to. Because they have gone far too much in defending the GOP so far. They willfully ignore that he's pulling the rug from beneath the very people who have elected him.

You know why I am that bitter? Because my country has seen it happen. I see in these Trump supporters in their hate and self-pity the same people who enabled the rise of Nazi-Germany. The same people, who left there children with denial or silence when asked about whether they supported Hitler or not. I still remember the aghast reaction of a few classmates who interviewed old people for a school project and these people openly expressed disbelieve that Hitler, the man who wrote down his vile believes in two books, could have known of Holocaust and this must have been something cooked up behind the back of their hero. This is the very same mentality developed by Trumpists. They have gone too far. They live in their fantasy-land where it is impossible for them to be in the wrong, where they desperately need to ignore all the shit going on around them in order to not feel guilty about being enablers.

Here it is tought in school to look out for the factors that can drive a democracy into the ground. We tell ourselves we've learned from it by having created a constitution that says 'never again' on virtually every fucking page. Heck, we even have our own Nazi-punching articles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streitbare_Demokratie

The basic idea is that everyone who is advocating the restriction of fundamental rights for others should be effectively disqualified to make use of them if it furthers their agenda. Freedom of press is a major part of that. But they are also barred from any government work. Sure, a judge has to deem such a group anti-constitutional, but so far we could trust our courts to do it. Punching the Nazis yourself might be only deemed a last resort if you can't trust the courts anymore, but it is still something the constitution allows you to do in case it is really necessary. If an AfD higher-up would openly suggest the idea to abolish free press, you can bet that their party would be shut down in no time, but I can say so only because I trust the hostility of our establishment towards them to do so. If our government would be full of Nazi sympathizers, like yours is, I would be more wary. And on top of it, you don't seem to have articles like this.

Regarding the revolution-thing... well, the German left tried:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichsbanner_Schwarz-Rot-Gold

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roter_Frontkämpferbund

This is what WinterFox's pessimist tales reminded me of. When police forces sympathising with the Nazis began to violently disrupt peaceful protests at the slightest provocation (something your government is openly planning to do in the future), paramilitary groups began to protect them to force the police officers to think twice about whether they actually wanted to do that. The problem was that in these times parties in the Weimar Republic were so hostile to each other that all of them had these paramilitaries (you might know the Nazi one as SA) and their violent fights always broke out during election times when the Nazis went out to intimidate political opposition into not casting their votes. This happened. All the time. And the left lost. They allowed the Nazis to point at the 'violent left' and cry foul, fueling the already existing distrust in the left. When the Nazis teamed up with the conservatives, they ended up having all the weapons and these paramilitary groups ended up being crushed and put into concentration camps.

I don't exactly know what I can advise you to do. The US need change from the ground up. And I dare to say that it might not be too late for it. Right now Trump himself is just chaff and he himself has no grand plan beyond 'grab everything I can for me and my corporate buddies'. He is too stupid to be the next Hitler, thankfully. Your true enemy is still in the shadows, dismantling democracy in order to prepare everything for their true messiah who will transform the US into a true dictatorship. If the Democratic party can get its shit together and put together a program of hope and optimism to put against the Republican's nihilism, they could actually rally a lot of those votes Hillary lost by virtue of being the least liked candidate ever and put the Republicans into the backseat for another term. This is the time for grassroots activism, it is the time to put democrats with a message into the position or heck, become politically active yourself. The Republican party must be fought at every opportunity. And maybe, if you succeed, in a generation or two, these pissed reactionaries who put Trump in place may even die out. If not... no, that's not an option! The moment the US is turned into a dictatorship of corporate fascists and Christian extremists, you have already lost. You might even still have elections the same way Russia has, but you have lost. And the world with you.

 

[Relic]

Great post Toth. 

[LongRider]

20 minutes ago, Toth said:

The left can't win through a revolution, after all, the right has all the guns.

But they cannot fight back through complacency either.

I've been reading this thread for quite a while and come to the conclusion that some people tend to play down the threat-level that has currently the political atmosphere of the USA in its grip. Please. Step back. Consider the situation in the US. Consider not just the nut-jobs in charge, but also the willful denial of those who put them there and what this would mean for the future of your democracy if the next president after Trump is someone who is not a narcissistic idiot, but someone with an agenda and who finds a thoroughly dismantled state to do with as he pleases. People like Pence and Bannon, who are already busy dismantling your state while Trump serves as bombastic chaff. They would still praise and defend such a person to the very end. Because they have to. Because they have gone far too much in defending the GOP so far. They willfully ignore that he's pulling the rug from beneath the very people who have elected him.

You know why I am that bitter? Because my country has seen it happen. I see in these Trump supporters in their hate and self-pity the same people who enabled the rise of Nazi-Germany. The same people, who left there children with denial or silence when asked about whether they supported Hitler or not. I still remember the aghast reaction of a few classmates who interviewed old people for a school project and these people openly expressed disbelieve that Hitler, the man who wrote down his vile believes in two books, could have known of Holocaust and this must have been something cooked up behind the back of their hero. This is the very same mentality developed by Trumpists. They have gone too far. They live in their fantasy-land where it is impossible for them to be in the wrong, where they desperately need to ignore all the shit going on around them in order to not feel guilty about being enablers.

Here it is tought in school to look out for the factors that can drive a democracy into the ground. We tell ourselves we've learned from it by having created a constitution that says 'never again' on virtually every fucking page. Heck, we even have our own Nazi-punching articles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streitbare_Demokratie

The basic idea is that everyone who is advocating the restriction of fundamental rights for others should be effectively disqualified to make use of them if it furthers their agenda. Freedom of press is a major part of that. But they are also barred from any government work. Sure, a judge has to deem such a group anti-constitutional, but so far we could trust our courts to do it. Punching the Nazis yourself might be only deemed a last resort if you can't trust the courts anymore, but it is still something the constitution allows you to do in case it is really necessary. If an AfD higher-up would openly suggest the idea to abolish free press, you can bet that their party would be shut down in no time, but I can say so only because I trust the hostility of our establishment towards them to do so. If our government would be full of Nazi sympathizers, like yours is, I would be more wary. And on top of it, you don't seem to have articles like this.

Regarding the revolution-thing... well, the German left tried:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichsbanner_Schwarz-Rot-Gold

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roter_Frontkämpferbund

This is what WinterFox's pessimist tales reminded me of. When police forces sympathising with the Nazis began to violently disrupt peaceful protests at the slightest provocation (something your government is openly planning to do in the future), paramilitary groups began to protect them to force the police officers to think twice about whether they actually wanted to do that. The problem was that in these times parties in the Weimar Republic were so hostile to each other that all of them had these paramilitaries (you might know the Nazi one as SA) and their violent fights always broke out during election times when the Nazis went out to intimidate political opposition into not casting their votes. This happened. All the time. And the left lost. They allowed the Nazis to point at the 'violent left' and cry foul, fueling the already existing distrust in the left. When the Nazis teamed up with the conservatives, they ended up having all the weapons and these paramilitary groups ended up being crushed and put into concentration camps.

I don't exactly know what I can advise you to do. The US need change from the ground up. And I dare to say that it might not be too late for it. Right now Trump himself is just chaff and he himself has no grand plan beyond 'grab everything I can for me and my corporate buddies'. He is too stupid to be the next Hitler, thankfully. Your true enemy is still in the shadows, dismantling democracy in order to prepare everything for their true messiah who will transform the US into a true dictatorship. If the Democratic party can get its shit together and put together a program of hope and optimism to put against the Republican's nihilism, they could actually rally a lot of those votes Hillary lost by virtue of being the least liked candidate ever and put the Republicans into the backseat for another term. This is the time for grassroots activism, it is the time to put democrats with a message into the position or heck, become politically active yourself. The Republican party must be fought at every opportunity. And maybe, if you succeed, in a generation or two, these pissed reactionaries who put Trump in place may even die out. If not... no, that's not an option! The moment the US is turned into a dictatorship of corporate fascists and Christian extremists, you have already lost. You might even still have elections the same way Russia has, but you have lost. And the world with you.

 

Thanks Toth.  

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

32 minutes ago, Toth said:

The left can't win through a revolution, after all, the right has all the guns.

But they cannot fight back through complacency either.

I've been reading this thread for quite a while and come to the conclusion that some people tend to play down the threat-level that has currently the political atmosphere of the USA in its grip. Please. Step back. Consider the situation in the US. Consider not just the nut-jobs in charge, but also the willful denial of those who put them there and what this would mean for the future of your democracy if the next president after Trump is someone who is not a narcissistic idiot, but someone with an agenda and who finds a thoroughly dismantled state to do with as he pleases. People like Pence and Bannon, who are already busy dismantling your state while Trump serves as bombastic chaff. They would still praise and defend such a person to the very end. Because they have to. Because they have gone far too much in defending the GOP so far. They willfully ignore that he's pulling the rug from beneath the very people who have elected him.

You know why I am that bitter? Because my country has seen it happen. I see in these Trump supporters in their hate and self-pity the same people who enabled the rise of Nazi-Germany. The same people, who left there children with denial or silence when asked about whether they supported Hitler or not. I still remember the aghast reaction of a few classmates who interviewed old people for a school project and these people openly expressed disbelieve that Hitler, the man who wrote down his vile believes in two books, could have known of Holocaust and this must have been something cooked up behind the back of their hero. This is the very same mentality developed by Trumpists. They have gone too far. They live in their fantasy-land where it is impossible for them to be in the wrong, where they desperately need to ignore all the shit going on around them in order to not feel guilty about being enablers.

Here it is tought in school to look out for the factors that can drive a democracy into the ground. We tell ourselves we've learned from it by having created a constitution that says 'never again' on virtually every fucking page. Heck, we even have our own Nazi-punching articles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streitbare_Demokratie

The basic idea is that everyone who is advocating the restriction of fundamental rights for others should be effectively disqualified to make use of them if it furthers their agenda. Freedom of press is a major part of that. But they are also barred from any government work. Sure, a judge has to deem such a group anti-constitutional, but so far we could trust our courts to do it. Punching the Nazis yourself might be only deemed a last resort if you can't trust the courts anymore, but it is still something the constitution allows you to do in case it is really necessary. If an AfD higher-up would openly suggest the idea to abolish free press, you can bet that their party would be shut down in no time, but I can say so only because I trust the hostility of our establishment towards them to do so. If our government would be full of Nazi sympathizers, like yours is, I would be more wary. And on top of it, you don't seem to have articles like this.

Regarding the revolution-thing... well, the German left tried:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichsbanner_Schwarz-Rot-Gold

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roter_Frontkämpferbund

This is what WinterFox's pessimist tales reminded me of. When police forces sympathising with the Nazis began to violently disrupt peaceful protests at the slightest provocation (something your government is openly planning to do in the future), paramilitary groups began to protect them to force the police officers to think twice about whether they actually wanted to do that. The problem was that in these times parties in the Weimar Republic were so hostile to each other that all of them had these paramilitaries (you might know the Nazi one as SA) and their violent fights always broke out during election times when the Nazis went out to intimidate political opposition into not casting their votes. This happened. All the time. And the left lost. They allowed the Nazis to point at the 'violent left' and cry foul, fueling the already existing distrust in the left. When the Nazis teamed up with the conservatives, they ended up having all the weapons and these paramilitary groups ended up being crushed and put into concentration camps.

I don't exactly know what I can advise you to do. The US need change from the ground up. And I dare to say that it might not be too late for it. Right now Trump himself is just chaff and he himself has no grand plan beyond 'grab everything I can for me and my corporate buddies'. He is too stupid to be the next Hitler, thankfully. Your true enemy is still in the shadows, dismantling democracy in order to prepare everything for their true messiah who will transform the US into a true dictatorship. If the Democratic party can get its shit together and put together a program of hope and optimism to put against the Republican's nihilism, they could actually rally a lot of those votes Hillary lost by virtue of being the least liked candidate ever and put the Republicans into the backseat for another term. This is the time for grassroots activism, it is the time to put democrats with a message into the position or heck, become politically active yourself. The Republican party must be fought at every opportunity. And maybe, if you succeed, in a generation or two, these pissed reactionaries who put Trump in place may even die out. If not... no, that's not an option! The moment the US is turned into a dictatorship of corporate fascists and Christian extremists, you have already lost. You might even still have elections the same way Russia has, but you have lost. And the world with you.

 

Indeed, well said.

[Sivin]

 

47 minutes ago, Toth said:

The left can't win through a revolution, after all, the right has all the guns.

But they cannot fight back through complacency either.

I've been reading this thread for quite a while and come to the conclusion that some people tend to play down the threat-level that has currently the political atmosphere of the USA in its grip. Please. Step back. Consider the situation in the US. Consider not just the nut-jobs in charge, but also the willful denial of those who put them there and what this would mean for the future of your democracy if the next president after Trump is someone who is not a narcissistic idiot, but someone with an agenda and who finds a thoroughly dismantled state to do with as he pleases. People like Pence and Bannon, who are already busy dismantling your state while Trump serves as bombastic chaff. They would still praise and defend such a person to the very end. Because they have to. Because they have gone far too much in defending the GOP so far. They willfully ignore that he's pulling the rug from beneath the very people who have elected him.

You know why I am that bitter? Because my country has seen it happen. I see in these Trump supporters in their hate and self-pity the same people who enabled the rise of Nazi-Germany. The same people, who left there children with denial or silence when asked about whether they supported Hitler or not. I still remember the aghast reaction of a few classmates who interviewed old people for a school project and these people openly expressed disbelieve that Hitler, the man who wrote down his vile believes in two books, could have known of Holocaust and this must have been something cooked up behind the back of their hero. This is the very same mentality developed by Trumpists. They have gone too far. They live in their fantasy-land where it is impossible for them to be in the wrong, where they desperately need to ignore all the shit going on around them in order to not feel guilty about being enablers.

Here it is tought in school to look out for the factors that can drive a democracy into the ground. We tell ourselves we've learned from it by having created a constitution that says 'never again' on virtually every fucking page. Heck, we even have our own Nazi-punching articles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streitbare_Demokratie

The basic idea is that everyone who is advocating the restriction of fundamental rights for others should be effectively disqualified to make use of them if it furthers their agenda. Freedom of press is a major part of that. But they are also barred from any government work. Sure, a judge has to deem such a group anti-constitutional, but so far we could trust our courts to do it. Punching the Nazis yourself might be only deemed a last resort if you can't trust the courts anymore, but it is still something the constitution allows you to do in case it is really necessary. If an AfD higher-up would openly suggest the idea to abolish free press, you can bet that their party would be shut down in no time, but I can say so only because I trust the hostility of our establishment towards them to do so. If our government would be full of Nazi sympathizers, like yours is, I would be more wary. And on top of it, you don't seem to have articles like this.

Regarding the revolution-thing... well, the German left tried:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichsbanner_Schwarz-Rot-Gold

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roter_Frontkämpferbund

This is what WinterFox's pessimist tales reminded me of. When police forces sympathising with the Nazis began to violently disrupt peaceful protests at the slightest provocation (something your government is openly planning to do in the future), paramilitary groups began to protect them to force the police officers to think twice about whether they actually wanted to do that. The problem was that in these times parties in the Weimar Republic were so hostile to each other that all of them had these paramilitaries (you might know the Nazi one as SA) and their violent fights always broke out during election times when the Nazis went out to intimidate political opposition into not casting their votes. This happened. All the time. And the left lost. They allowed the Nazis to point at the 'violent left' and cry foul, fueling the already existing distrust in the left. When the Nazis teamed up with the conservatives, they ended up having all the weapons and these paramilitary groups ended up being crushed and put into concentration camps.

I don't exactly know what I can advise you to do. The US need change from the ground up. And I dare to say that it might not be too late for it. Right now Trump himself is just chaff and he himself has no grand plan beyond 'grab everything I can for me and my corporate buddies'. He is too stupid to be the next Hitler, thankfully. Your true enemy is still in the shadows, dismantling democracy in order to prepare everything for their true messiah who will transform the US into a true dictatorship. If the Democratic party can get its shit together and put together a program of hope and optimism to put against the Republican's nihilism, they could actually rally a lot of those votes Hillary lost by virtue of being the least liked candidate ever and put the Republicans into the backseat for another term. This is the time for grassroots activism, it is the time to put democrats with a message into the position or heck, become politically active yourself. The Republican party must be fought at every opportunity. And maybe, if you succeed, in a generation or two, these pissed reactionaries who put Trump in place may even die out. If not... no, that's not an option! The moment the US is turned into a dictatorship of corporate fascists and Christian extremists, you have already lost. You might even still have elections the same way Russia has, but you have lost. And the world with you.

 

Applause.

[Crazydog7]

2 hours ago, Darzin said:

And how much of what he wants has actually happened. 

Also violence is a slippery slope only advocate if you're going to win, and between urban hispters and good old boys in pickup trucks I know who i'd bet on.

 

The Jews weren't all killed in 1933 the day after Hitler took power.  You have to build up to rounding up your scapegoat mechanism and putting them into camps.  

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Trumpy the Clown breaking out the A-list material today in Arlington...

/Our national nightmare grinds on

[Zorral]

Quote

When police forces sympathising with the Nazis began to violently disrupt peaceful protests at the slightest provocation (something your government is openly planning to do in the future), paramilitary groups began to protect them to force the police officers to think twice about whether they actually wanted to do that. The problem was that in these times parties in the Weimar Republic were so hostile to each other that all of them had these paramilitaries (you might know the Nazi one as SA) and their violent fights always broke out during election times when the Nazis went out to intimidate political opposition into not casting their votes. This happened. All the time. And the left lost. They allowed the Nazis to point at the 'violent left' and cry foul, fueling the already existing distrust in the left. When the Nazis teamed up with the conservatives, they ended up having all the weapons and these paramilitary groups ended up being crushed and put into concentration camps.

This has been going on here, and for quite some time. 

[Dr. Pepper]

2 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Seriously, both of you - put each other on ignore (and it works fine) and stop shitposting this bullshit feud, or take it to PM, or take all your shit and put it in a backpack and take it away. 

Ignore feature hasn't worked in weeks, maybe even longer.  But yes, if anyone here is actually friends with ME, by all means, remind him that I've invited him to PM multiple times. 

2 hours ago, Toth said:

The left can't win through a revolution, after all, the right has all the guns.

But they cannot fight back through complacency either.

I've been reading this thread for quite a while and come to the conclusion that some people tend to play down the threat-level that has currently the political atmosphere of the USA in its grip. Please. Step back. Consider the situation in the US. Consider not just the nut-jobs in charge, but also the willful denial of those who put them there and what this would mean for the future of your democracy if the next president after Trump is someone who is not a narcissistic idiot, but someone with an agenda and who finds a thoroughly dismantled state to do with as he pleases. People like Pence and Bannon, who are already busy dismantling your state while Trump serves as bombastic chaff. They would still praise and defend such a person to the very end. Because they have to. Because they have gone far too much in defending the GOP so far. They willfully ignore that he's pulling the rug from beneath the very people who have elected him.

You know why I am that bitter? Because my country has seen it happen. I see in these Trump supporters in their hate and self-pity the same people who enabled the rise of Nazi-Germany. The same people, who left there children with denial or silence when asked about whether they supported Hitler or not. I still remember the aghast reaction of a few classmates who interviewed old people for a school project and these people openly expressed disbelieve that Hitler, the man who wrote down his vile believes in two books, could have known of Holocaust and this must have been something cooked up behind the back of their hero. This is the very same mentality developed by Trumpists. They have gone too far. They live in their fantasy-land where it is impossible for them to be in the wrong, where they desperately need to ignore all the shit going on around them in order to not feel guilty about being enablers.

Here it is tought in school to look out for the factors that can drive a democracy into the ground. We tell ourselves we've learned from it by having created a constitution that says 'never again' on virtually every fucking page. Heck, we even have our own Nazi-punching articles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streitbare_Demokratie

The basic idea is that everyone who is advocating the restriction of fundamental rights for others should be effectively disqualified to make use of them if it furthers their agenda. Freedom of press is a major part of that. But they are also barred from any government work. Sure, a judge has to deem such a group anti-constitutional, but so far we could trust our courts to do it. Punching the Nazis yourself might be only deemed a last resort if you can't trust the courts anymore, but it is still something the constitution allows you to do in case it is really necessary. If an AfD higher-up would openly suggest the idea to abolish free press, you can bet that their party would be shut down in no time, but I can say so only because I trust the hostility of our establishment towards them to do so. If our government would be full of Nazi sympathizers, like yours is, I would be more wary. And on top of it, you don't seem to have articles like this.

Regarding the revolution-thing... well, the German left tried:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichsbanner_Schwarz-Rot-Gold

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roter_Frontkämpferbund

This is what WinterFox's pessimist tales reminded me of. When police forces sympathising with the Nazis began to violently disrupt peaceful protests at the slightest provocation (something your government is openly planning to do in the future), paramilitary groups began to protect them to force the police officers to think twice about whether they actually wanted to do that. The problem was that in these times parties in the Weimar Republic were so hostile to each other that all of them had these paramilitaries (you might know the Nazi one as SA) and their violent fights always broke out during election times when the Nazis went out to intimidate political opposition into not casting their votes. This happened. All the time. And the left lost. They allowed the Nazis to point at the 'violent left' and cry foul, fueling the already existing distrust in the left. When the Nazis teamed up with the conservatives, they ended up having all the weapons and these paramilitary groups ended up being crushed and put into concentration camps.

I don't exactly know what I can advise you to do. The US need change from the ground up. And I dare to say that it might not be too late for it. Right now Trump himself is just chaff and he himself has no grand plan beyond 'grab everything I can for me and my corporate buddies'. He is too stupid to be the next Hitler, thankfully. Your true enemy is still in the shadows, dismantling democracy in order to prepare everything for their true messiah who will transform the US into a true dictatorship. If the Democratic party can get its shit together and put together a program of hope and optimism to put against the Republican's nihilism, they could actually rally a lot of those votes Hillary lost by virtue of being the least liked candidate ever and put the Republicans into the backseat for another term. This is the time for grassroots activism, it is the time to put democrats with a message into the position or heck, become politically active yourself. The Republican party must be fought at every opportunity. And maybe, if you succeed, in a generation or two, these pissed reactionaries who put Trump in place may even die out. If not... no, that's not an option! The moment the US is turned into a dictatorship of corporate fascists and Christian extremists, you have already lost. You might even still have elections the same way Russia has, but you have lost. And the world with you.

 

Well put.  This should be repeated often.  The world has seen this all happen before.  There are several countries in the world currently living it.  My own country is going step by step through the playbook.  That's why I find it so shocking that people could be apathetic to it, or worse, sympathetic.  These are the ones who are going to be seen as the biggest contributors.

[denstorebog]

What I think Toth is particularly right about is that Trump isn't even the nightmare. He's pretty much a horseman of the Apocalypse. The dumb horseman who keeps falling off his steed. I have some hope that he could be exactly the shot of adrenaline the Democratic Party needs, and yes, I do believe there will be actual elections in 2018 and 2020, and yes, there could even be a Democratic wave election like everyone talks about, at least in gubernatiorial and state elections. And I also believe that Trump will have worn out his welcome in 2020 among many Republicans, and that Democrats will be ready to wake up from the nightmare. Trump could be the best thing to happen to Team Blue in a long time. Short term, at least.

But really, what happens then? Infowars and Drudge and the Russians will keep peddling their shit, the alt-right will keep squeezing the internet for all its propaganda worth, and there'll be plenty of neckbeards and aspiring nazis out there who want to listen. Seriously, what is the precedent for healing a divide like this? Because if the regressive part of the USA can't be put under a lid, sooner or later someone with a clear and dictatorial vision for the US will step up, someone who can actually appeal to people and speak the language of policy-making, but with the same batshit Bannon-esque agenda as half the current White House administration. And with a little bad luck, the Republican WH/Senate/House constellation will be in place again, and all the spineless cowards will be ready to stomp all over law and decency once more. Hell, McCain might even be dead at that point and replaced by a Senator Gianforte.

I honestly don't know what the historical precedent for rolling back polarization like is, but maybe someone can enlighten me. All I hear is that "we need to educate people", but that doesn't seem like it'll happen on a large scale anytime soon.

[Ormond]

22 hours ago, Zorral said:

Mostly nothing above makes any real sense.  Also Gianforte said it was cheaper in MT than NJ -- which is one of the most expensive states in which to do biz and the most expensive state, so far, to run for office.  He was outgunned in NJ -- just a small fry.

In any case that whole culture of honor thing proves itself yesterday, today and tomorrow to be bs, so demonstrated by those who howl the loudest about such things, and almost always run away if they don't have an unfair advantage -- even when the advantage is equal they run away.  The only individual in our history that actually practiced what he preached in this area was Andrew Jackson, certainly not that little twit Preston Brooks.

 

 

I think you are very naive to believe that Gianforte's stated reason for moving to Montana is the ONLY motivation he had for moving there. And I think you are completely confusing your evaluation of the worth of the culture of honor (which I probably agree with you on) with its importance as a motivating principle in the psychology of others. And not always "practicing what you preach" is a general human phenomenon.

[Ormond]

30 minutes ago, denstorebog said:

What I think Toth is particularly right about is that Trump isn't even the nightmare. He's pretty much a horseman of the Apocalypse. The dumb horseman who keeps falling off his steed. I have some hope that he could be exactly the shot of adrenaline the Democratic Party needs, and yes, I do believe there will be actual elections in 2018 and 2020, and yes, there could even be a Democratic wave election like everyone talks about, at least in gubernatiorial and state elections. And I also believe that Trump will have worn out his welcome in 2020 among many Republicans, and that Democrats will be ready to wake up from the nightmare. Trump could be the best thing to happen to Team Blue in a long time. Short term, at least.

But really, what happens then? Infowars and Drudge and the Russians will keep peddling their shit, the alt-right will keep squeezing the internet for all its propaganda worth, and there'll be plenty of neckbeards and aspiring nazis out there who want to listen. Seriously, what is the precedent for healing a divide like this? Because if the regressive part of the USA can't be put under a lid, sooner or later someone with a clear and dictatorial vision for the US will step up, someone who can actually appeal to people and speak the language of policy-making, but with the same batshit Bannon-esque agenda as half the current White House administration. And with a little bad luck, the Republican WH/Senate/House constellation will be in place again, and all the spineless cowards will be ready to stomp all over law and decency once more. Hell, McCain might even be dead at that point and replaced by a Senator Gianforte.

I honestly don't know what the historical precedent for rolling back polarization like is, but maybe someone can enlighten me. All I hear is that "we need to educate people", but that doesn't seem like it'll happen on a large scale anytime soon.

Well, since this polarization is at the moment highly correlated with ethnicity and age as well as education, it would seem that the % of people who will be paying attention to alt-right propaganda on the Internet will go down just from people dying off, even if you don't believe that those who are already adults can ever be "educated."

P.S. And it might be worth pointing out that in 1930s Germany National Socialist voters did NOT skew toward the older population. Though the skew in the other direction was much more minor than the "Hitler Youth" stereotype implies, there was actually a slight tendency for younger voters to be more likely to belong to the National Socialist party. So the age factor in pre-Nazi Germany was dissimilar to the divisions in the USA today. (What was similar was that rural voters, at least in Protestant areas, were more likely to vote for the National Socialists than urban voters, even though the Nazis skewed their propaganda toward the cities.)

http://www.johndclare.net/Weimar6_Geary.htm

[Dr. Pepper]

17 minutes ago, Ormond said:

Well, since this polarization is at the moment highly correlated with ethnicity and age as well as education, it would seem that the % of people who will be paying attention to alt-right propaganda on the Internet will go down just from people dying off, even if you don't believe that those who are already adults can ever be "educated."

 

But will that particular demographic die fast enough?  Because if they set up a horror show government before they die, generations could suffer before things could be made right.  So yeah, I'm ok wishing for the big die off, but we definitely shouldn't be relying on that seeing as the mega lashing out from this demographic could (and is) terrible.

[Relic]

2 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Trumpy the Clown breaking out the A-list material today in Arlington...

/Our national nightmare grinds on

A short fingered vulgarian.