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What did Ned promise?

I was with her when she died,” Ned reminded the king. “She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father.” He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned.

But the promise has not been kept, did he promise to bury her in the Sept of Baelor or maybe a hill overlooking Stormsend?

 

Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black.... “I bring her flowers when I can,” he said. “Lyanna was … fond of flowers.”

Was it a botanical promise to water her flowers or place blue roses on her grave?  There is a pause between was and fond; possibly indicating the grief he felt from neglecting his promise?

“The Others take your honor!” Robert swore. “What did any Targaryen ever know of honor? Go down into your crypt and ask Lyanna about the dragon’s honor!” “You avenged Lyanna at the Trident,” Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered.

This follows Robert killing Rhaegar if the promise is not kept and involved Rhaegar being killed, did Lyanna want Jon the baby born of rape killed by her true love Robert?

 

The clues are scattered in the books and we need to join the dots but I think we can put this mystery to bed, so what did she make Ned promise?

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I've always believed she made Ned promise to (1) raise and take care of him, and (2) don't let Robert know he is Rhaegar's son or he'll kill him.

However, I recently read a decently convincing theory hypothesizing how Jon is going to discover and/or prove his identity. Using the "dragon from stone" prophecy, they theorized that Rhaegar's distinct silver-stringed harp we read about (at least once per book) is going to be found in Lyanna's tomb or somewhere else in the crypts. It's not exactly a new theory, but may be interesting to you since it provides a lot of textual evidence. Even if you don't buy it, you could see what someone else has quoted and analyzed to draw their conclusions as a starting point for making your own.

I thought the "promise me" section of the theory was fairly convincing. We can probably assume that even if she hasn't asked that Ned would have taken Jon in and raised him anyways. So, the promise is then theorized to be her making him promise to preserve Jon's heritage (harp), which Ned would probably not want to do as the Targaryens have taken so much from him already.

 

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Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he’d made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d paid to keep them.

This seems to support the flower argument, flowers can be costly items and Ned thinks back on the 15 years of spending he accumulated and for what? Now he loves in KL he no longer keeps the promise he made to his sister that he will never let the flowers on her grave turn "dead and black"

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11 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

You really think Ned has been haunted by his dying sister's memory for the last fifteen years because he was slack about watering flowers?

"Price" doesn't mean money, not in this context. But you knew that.

Exactly. The "price" is his honor, the full trust of his wife, the stress associated with hiding from his best friend, and the worry of what would happen if the secret escaped. The "price" is not that he had to spend a few silver stags to put fresh flowers at a tomb occasionally.

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2 hours ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he’d made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d paid to keep them.

This seems to support the flower argument, flowers can be costly items and Ned thinks back on the 15 years of spending he accumulated and for what? Now he loves in KL he no longer keeps the promise he made to his sister that he will never let the flowers on her grave turn "dead and black"

Maybe Lyanna could warg through the flowers and now that they are all dead she can no longer live her second life through them. 

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I don't think there's anything here to see. Lyanna knew that Bobby Baratheon would kill the baby boy, if he knew his father was Rhaegar. Ned just promised to keep his secret. The "price" was just his broken trust with Cat, and lying to Robert. All the more reason why Ned told Jon he would tell him more of his mother the next time they met, as Jon would then have taken the vows, and be beyond Robert's reach and concern. Robert also didn't kill Aemon, though he knew that the Maester was a Targ.

It's all wrapped up nicely, with a little bow on it, once you look for it. You've got to remember, so many people take R+L=J as true that it has become commonplace. The TV show has added to that. But if no forums had ever come up, if it was still a series with a small following, most readers wouldn't have even connected the dots yet. We have the dots all spelled out, due to forums like this, the Show, etc.

 

R+L=J, if true (and it almost has to be), implicitly carries with it the required promise from Ned to Lyanna to raise Jon, and to protect his identity. Meaning, if Rhaegar and Lyanna made Jon Snow, then Ned had to do all of those things, and Lyanna had to ask for them.

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21 minutes ago, HaeSuse said:

And... as a followup... isn't Jon Snow, if rightfully the spawn of Rhaegar and Lyanna, actually Jon Waters? And if so, is there a ton of imagery and symbolism to read into that?

Mya Stone is known to be Robert's bastard but she is still a Stone and not a Storm.

I think I read somewhere a bastard can take a father's or mother's birth places bastard name and the place they were born if both parents are high born. So if r+l=j Jon could take Waters, Snow or Sand. I could be wrong though. 

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1 hour ago, HaeSuse said:

And... as a followup... isn't Jon Snow, if rightfully the spawn of Rhaegar and Lyanna, actually Jon Waters? And if so, is there a ton of imagery and symbolism to read into that?

 

1 hour ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Mya Stone is known to be Robert's bastard but she is still a Stone and not a Storm.

I think I read somewhere a bastard can take a father's or mother's birth places bastard name and the place they were born if both parents are high born. So if r+l=j Jon could take Waters, Snow or Sand. I could be wrong though. 

Know this. I like you guys.  At least you both recognize that Jon is a bastard.  Many of his fans do not and refuse to even after convincing arguments that he is.  

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There is only one thing we know for sure that Lyanna asked Ned on her deathbed:  "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father."  We know that she told him this on her deathbed because she knew that Brandon and Rickard were dead when she said it and Ned only talked to Lyanna once after that happened.  We also know this because Ned says it immediately after:  "I was with her when she died."  

We don't know why it is so important for the Starks to be buried in the Winterfell crypts, but we know that is something they have done for thousands of years and that by the time the books start, Ned has already built or set aside tombs for his own children and shown them where they will be buried one day.  So being buried in the family crypts mattered to Lyanna:  "She was a Stark of Winterfell ....  This is her place."  

We also know that Ned paid a price for bringing Lyanna's bones back.  He earned the enduring hatred of Lady Dustin.  "He told me that my lord had died an honorable death, that his body had been laid to rest beneath the red mountains of Dorne.  He brought his sister's bones back north, though, and there she rests . . . but I promise you, Lord Eddard's bones will never rest beside hers.  I mean to feed them to my dogs."  

There may be a promise related to a baby born to Lyanna Stark.  But there was definitely a promise related to burying Lyanna in the Winterfell crypts.  

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3 hours ago, HaeSuse said:

And... as a followup... isn't Jon Snow, if rightfully the spawn of Rhaegar and Lyanna, actually Jon Waters? And if so, is there a ton of imagery and symbolism to read into that?

Rightful or not does not matter. It is how he was raised and he is a Snow. Lord snow to be exact 

 

1 hour ago, The Twinslayer said:

There is only one thing we know for sure that Lyanna asked Ned on her deathbed:  "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father."  We know that she told him this on her deathbed because she knew that Brandon and Rickard were dead when she said it and Ned only talked to Lyanna once after that happened.  We also know this because Ned says it immediately after:  "I was with her when she died."  

We don't know why it is so important for the Starks to be buried in the Winterfell crypts, but we know that is something they have done for thousands of years and that by the time the books start, Ned has already built or set aside tombs for his own children and shown them where they will be buried one day.  So being buried in the family crypts mattered to Lyanna:  "She was a Stark of Winterfell ....  This is her place."  

We also know that Ned paid a price for bringing Lyanna's bones back.  He earned the enduring hatred of Lady Dustin.  "He told me that my lord had died an honorable death, that his body had been laid to rest beneath the red mountains of Dorne.  He brought his sister's bones back north, though, and there she rests . . . but I promise you, Lord Eddard's bones will never rest beside hers.  I mean to feed them to my dogs."  

There may be a promise related to a baby born to Lyanna Stark.  But there was definitely a promise related to burying Lyanna in the Winterfell crypts.  

Only the Kings or Lords of winterfell are buried in the crypts. The fact that Lyanna is buried there isan indication that something important plot wise is in there 

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9 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Only the Kings or Lords of winterfell are buried in the crypts. The fact that Lyanna is buried there isan indication that something important plot wise is in there 

That is not true at all.  The first description we get of the crypts tells us that they contain "the dead of House Stark."  What separates the Lords from the rest is just that the Lords are the ones with swords.  "By ancient custom, an iron longsword had been laid across the lap of each who had been Lord of Winterfell."  

This is confirmed by Arya later in AGOT when she remembers the first time she visited the crypts:  "Robb took them all the way down to the end, past Grandfather and Brandon and Lyanna, to show them their own tombs."  

So there can't be anything unusual about the fact that Lyanna was buried in the crypts -- even Arya and Rickon are going to be buried there one day.

In fact, the only thing Ned did that was unusual was to put a sword on Brandon's tomb.  AGOT tells us that was just for the dead Lords of Winterfell.  Brandon was never Lord of Winterfell, yet in ADWD, Lady Dustin notices that Brandon's sword is missing.  

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10 hours ago, Traverys said:

However, I recently read a decently convincing theory hypothesizing how Jon is going to discover and/or prove his identity. Using the "dragon from stone" prophecy, they theorized that Rhaegar's distinct silver-stringed harp we read about (at least once per book) is going to be found in Lyanna's tomb or somewhere else in the crypts. It's not exactly a new theory, but may be interesting to you since it provides a lot of textual evidence. Even if you don't buy it, you could see what someone else has quoted and analyzed to draw their conclusions as a starting point for making your own.

 

I also agree with this about the harp in the crypt. But if that's so then how did Ned carry it back with him? He also had to carry poor Lyanna and baby, a harp and anything else? I assume there was a cart to load everything on. I understand the Tower of Joy was pulled down later on by Ned. I think the "promise me" was to keep more than one secret that:

1. Jon Snow's dad is Rhaegar.

2. Lyanna loved Rhaegar

3. Lyanna and Rhaegar were married.

4. Rhaegar loved Lyanna.

It's possible that someone else present at the time could still be alive (Howland Reed, a midwife, maid, ect). Of Howland Reed, I'm suspicious about him because his two kids went away to help Bran and assisted him beyond the wall. What was Howland Reed doing? One of his kids died. Does he know much? And of the maids in the Tower of Joy, I could be wrong but one of them might've been Wylla, or Ashara Dayne.

I'm still confused about the manner Rhaegar and Lyanna went to Dorne unnoticed.

 

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3 hours ago, Wolfgirly said:

I also agree with this about the harp in the crypt. But if that's so then how did Ned carry it back with him? He also had to carry poor Lyanna and baby, a harp and anything else? I assume there was a cart to load everything on. I understand the Tower of Joy was pulled down later on by Ned. I think the "promise me" was to keep more than one secret that:

1. Jon Snow's dad is Rhaegar.

2. Lyanna loved Rhaegar

3. Lyanna and Rhaegar were married.

4. Rhaegar loved Lyanna.

It's possible that someone else present at the time could still be alive (Howland Reed, a midwife, maid, ect). Of Howland Reed, I'm suspicious about him because his two kids went away to help Bran and assisted him beyond the wall. What was Howland Reed doing? One of his kids died. Does he know much? And of the maids in the Tower of Joy, I could be wrong but one of them might've been Wylla, or Ashara Dayne.

I'm still confused about the manner Rhaegar and Lyanna went to Dorne unnoticed.

 

 

It's obviously a tinfoil theory, but there is a fairly large group of people that believe Howland Reed is the High Septon.

I don't remember the maids at all. By many accounts, we know Ashara Dayne was at Starfall when Ned returned Dawn to the family. In ASoS, Ned Dayne tells Arya that Wylla was wetnurse to him and Jon Snow. It's all heresay, but it's what we have to go on. Allyria Dayne (Ashara's sister) then tells Ned that Ashara threw herself from a tower because Ned broke her heart when he left Starfall. People in Westeros either assume that "broke her heart" means that he broke off their love affair or that she had a child by him (Jon) and Eddard took him to Winterfell. It seems like Wylla was recruited by Eddard to nurse the baby while they traveled to the other side of the country. However, if you saw Eddard traveling the country with Wylla and a baby, you would pretty much assume that he fathered it on her. That's probably exactly what he hoped people would think. Assuming he did have feelings for her, it would also explain why Ned was so uncharacteristically upset when Catelyn confronted him about Ashara being Jon's father. At the time we take it to mean that Ashara was the mother, but with more and more information we can come to different conclusions.

Because so many people mention Ashara is having lost a baby, some people theorize that Ned did indeed father a bastard on her. The general idea is that they were in love since Harrenhal, got involved and would likely marry, and then there was a change in plans when Brandon Stark was murdered. Primary evidence of this would be that House Dayne doesn't seem to bear the Starks any ill will even though Eddard killed Ser Arthur Dayne. Parents pass down their prejudices to their children, so you'd expect Ned Dayne to not be so polite to Arya is his family was holding a grudge. Those that propose Ashara Dayne is still alive believe she fled with her child (instead of it dying) and that she's disguised as a character we've already met (Quaithe and Septa Lemore are the two biggest).

Anyways, now would be the time to mention how fascinating it is that so many threads of the plot all tie back to the Tower of Joy. A couple of tiny details are all that's needed and then so much of the plot would be revealed to us. I went off on a huge tangent, so I apologize. I just find this particular area of the plot so interesting (as most people do, I think). It'll be nice to see what theories actually have some truth to them.

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6 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

There is only one thing we know for sure that Lyanna asked Ned on her deathbed:  "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father."

You're right. But the big question is, what was she asking when she asked Ned to "Promise me." Bringing her bones back is, really, pretty trivial and something she might have just assumed. Not a big deal, and certainly nothing to keep secret all these years.

No, it's Lyanna's request to raise Jon as his own, and make sure Robert Baratheon never found out. She knew what a lunatic Robert was; it was no wonder she ran off with Rhaegar.

4 hours ago, Wolfgirly said:

It's possible that someone else present at the time could still be alive (Howland Reed, a midwife, maid, ect). Of Howland Reed, I'm suspicious about him because his two kids went away to help Bran and assisted him beyond the wall. What was Howland Reed doing? One of his kids died.

I think it's mentioned that at least a midwife is present, and the nobility like Rhaegar and the Starks never seem to go anywhere without a full complement of serving folks to bathe them, clothe them, feed them, take care of their horses, etc. Plus, we know Howland Reed was with Ned's party and helped save him from Arthur Dayne. "One of his kids died." Only in the show.

 

This. It pretty much says it all:     ;-)

8 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Maybe Lyanna could warg through the flowers and now that they are all dead she can no longer live her second life through them. 

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14 hours ago, Traverys said:

I've always believed she made Ned promise to (1) raise and take care of him, and (2) don't let Robert know he is Rhaegar's son or he'll kill him.

However, I recently read a decently convincing theory hypothesizing how Jon is going to discover and/or prove his identity. Using the "dragon from stone" prophecy, they theorized that Rhaegar's distinct silver-stringed harp we read about (at least once per book) is going to be found in Lyanna's tomb or somewhere else in the crypts. It's not exactly a new theory, but may be interesting to you since it provides a lot of textual evidence. Even if you don't buy it, you could see what someone else has quoted and analyzed to draw their conclusions as a starting point for making your own.

I thought the "promise me" section of the theory was fairly convincing. We can probably assume that even if she hasn't asked that Ned would have taken Jon in and raised him anyways. So, the promise is then theorized to be her making him promise to preserve Jon's heritage (harp), which Ned would probably not want to do as the Targaryens have taken so much from him already.

 

My main issue with this idea is how the hell did Ned take a silver harp all the way from Dorne, to Starfall, then KL and all the way to Winterfell, stopping gods knows how many times in gods know how many places and NO ONE has seen it? :blink:

ETA: on the promise or promises... at least one wasn't kept. To raise Jon as his own and keep it a secret from Robert maybe was a promise he made, but that one was kept. I'm more interested in the one(s) he didn't keep. 

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7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

and NO ONE has seen it? 

Exactly. Particularly since Rhaegar played "the high harp", which appears to have been a pretty huge instrument, similar to today's symphonic harp. Also, if there's some "secret" about Jon's parentage hidden in the tombs, in Lyanna's for example, how come nobody has yet come across it? The Stark kids frequently went down there, even played there and went INTO the pre-prepared tombs. Bran, Rickon, Osha and Hodor actually LIVED there for a period of time, maybe at least a fortnight. Nobody ever poked around, got curious? I'm doubtful that there's something down there that will reveal the truth for Jon. But who knows for sure, other than George RR, at this point?

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