promise me

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

From the text, it looks as though Ned brought Jon and his wet nurse with him on his return to Winterfell, or at least that's what Cat's POV says

Well, it's an ex post PoV for one, and it speaks only about his arrival to Winterfell, not the whole journey from the South.

[Wolfgirly]

So Rhaegar took his harp with him when he "kidnapped" Lyanna. He must've known that he wouldn't be returning home.

 

[Traverys]

21 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

There's one thing though...  this hypothetical harp hypothetically hidden in the crypts has to be easily identifiable as "Prince Rhaegar Targaryen's harp". Like, a silver stringed high harp. If it's any old lap harp (so that it could be carried all over Westeros without being noticed or seen by anyone) it would have exactly zero role to play in revealing Jon's parentage. 

I don't think any harp whatsoever would prove anything about Jon's heritage, which is my main criticism about the theory in general. A harp in Lyanna's tomb wouldn't be out of place to those who believed that she ran away with Rhaegar out of love. People are buried with sentimental objects all the time, and this practice can be traced all the way back to caveman times. It would be no doubt odd to find it in her tomb to others because of the official Stark position on the nature of her relationship with Rhaegar (i.e., rape). Perhaps it will just help further another part of the plot; gifting Rhaegar's harp to Daenerys when she arrives in Westeros would probably be very pleasing to her. Ser Barristan would be able to identify it on sight judging by the detail of the stories he told. But, that loops us back around to why so much foreshadowing in hinting (assuming it's true) has gone into this relatively ambiguous harp being in the Stark crypts...

Another question that springs to my mind now would be "are we sure that the high harp is what we think it is?" I always assumed it meant the large harps but not because of the name; I took "high" to imply sophistication or prestige rather than an indicator of height. However, a larger harp would have more room for strings and thus more notes to work with. That would make it more complex of an instrument and thus "sophisticated." But, it remains that we could be making an assumption about what a high harp actually is in the context of the story. 

I'm not very knowledgeable about instruments in general, but I've been pretty involved in the fantasy genre for a long time. A large harp stationed in a throne room is a fairly common element/trope of fantasy... usually with an elegant woman or lady playing it. The smaller, portable harps are associated with bards (all variations; magic, fighters, magic fighters, or merely musicians), which I think is the archetype Rhaegar has always triggered in my mind. He of course made a successful effort in shifting from an intellectual into a warrior, but it's fairly clear he preferred the harp over the sword.  

 

11 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

In any case, wouldn't the Silent Sisters have accompanied the bones of Lyanna to Winterfell? From the text, it looks as though Ned brought Jon and his wet nurse with him on his return to Winterfell, or at least that's what Cat's POV says.

I'm not entirely clear about the silent sisters and their role in ASoIaF.

They're used so irregularly that it's hard to really know anything about them. Not to mention they don't speak so can't tell us! It seems the only reliable place for Silent Sisters is in King's Landing. Otherwise, we don't know (1) where they're trained, (2) where/how they live after they're trained, (3) how they are funded when tending to bodies and transporting them, and (4) if they are distributed across the realm like maesters, septons, and septas. Specific to the latter point, their work seems impractical for only one person to do so they'd have to be distributed in pairs or groups. It could be that they are all stationed in KL and when things like wars are happening they send out groups of Silent Sisters to attend to the highborn dead, but otherwise travel back to KL.

What we do know is that they are part of the Faith, so it could be argued either way whether Ned would want to enroll their services. We could say he would have welcomed the assistance, or we could say that as a follower of the Old Gods he found the Silent Sisters unsettling. The boon of using the Silent Sisters to assist is that if they saw something they shouldn't have they wouldn't tell anyone, but that doesn't prove he did use them.

But (lots of buts this post ) this also raises the question of how he prepared Lyanna's corpse for traveling, as we assume he didn't just let her rot the entire way. Usually Silent Sisters are in charge of corpse preparation in the south, but we don't have a clear idea of the customs of the north. Ned could have been assisted by the Daynes in that regard, but that's just a guess; no proof and no idea if there would even be Silent Sisters nearby.

And... we could be operating under the assumption that Ned did indeed inter Lyanna's bones in the crypts. He built cairns at the Tower of Joy, he could have buried her at the Tower and transported the harp in her "coffin" (or whatever Westerosi use). However, I think the wording often implies she is at rest next to her father and brother...

As a side note, how did Ned get his hands on Rickard and Brandon's bones? It actually seems a little odd that Aerys II didn't have them thrown out into the ocean or something like that. Aerys II perverted the trial by combat tradition of the Faith, I doubt he would be remiss to defile the corpse of an enemy like the Freys did.

 

11 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Good points about Ned jumping to the conclusion Cersei's children are Jaime's!

This always cracks me up about Ned Stark's "black of hair" and "golden hair" logic.
 

11 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Ah, Rhaenyra's story.

Something to reread with my second coffee.

Yeah, The Princess and the Queen is such a good story. So many badass Targaryens (who I typically am not partial to), especially the women. I was rooting for Rhaenyra when I read it and had no idea how the Dance of the Dragons resolved. When granny Rhaenys is ambushed by King Aegon II and his brother I always get chills at her response:

"Princess Rhaenys made no attempt to flee. With a glad cry and a crack of her whip, she turned Meleys toward the foe."

[kissdbyfire]

27 minutes ago, Traverys said:

I don't think any harp whatsoever would prove anything about Jon's heritage, which is my main criticism about the theory in general.

Well, yeah I agree. But it could be argued that it would be proof enough for Westeros' standards!

But as you can probably tell, I'm not a huge fan of the idea either. My take on the crypts importance and role in revealing Jon's parentage is more along the lines of the crypts being, among other things, an important hub n the weirnet. So maybe something similar to what happened when Bran and Rickon saw Ned down there and knew he was dead. 

27 minutes ago, Traverys said:

A harp in Lyanna's tomb wouldn't be out of place to those who believed that she ran away with Rhaegar out of love. People are buried with sentimental objects all the time, and this practice can be traced all the way back to caveman times. It would be no doubt odd to find it in her tomb to others because of the official Stark position on the nature of her relationship with Rhaegar (i.e., rape).

I'm not sure that all the Starks think it was kidnapping/rape. Iirc, we never hear Ned thinking about it in those terms.

27 minutes ago, Traverys said:

Perhaps it will just help further another part of the plot; gifting Rhaegar's harp to Daenerys when she arrives in Westeros would probably be very pleasing to her. Ser Barristan would be able to identify it on sight judging by the detail of the stories he told. But, that loops us back around to why so much foreshadowing in hinting (assuming it's true) has gone into this relatively ambiguous harp being in the Stark crypts...

But then it would have to be the high harp ser Barry describes, and we're back at how did Ned bring the thing all the way from Dorne to Winterfell with no one noticing it. To me this is a huge issue w/ the idea. 

I'm not sure I agree that there's all that much foreshadowing and hinting on the harp being there... 

27 minutes ago, Traverys said:

Another question that springs to my mind now would be "are we sure that the high harp is what we think it is?" I always assumed it meant the large harps but not because of the name; I took "high" to imply sophistication or prestige rather than an indicator of height. However, a larger harp would have more room for strings and thus more notes to work with. That would make it more complex of an instrument and thus "sophisticated." But, it remains that we could be making an assumption about what a high harp actually is in the context of the story. 

I'm not very knowledgeable about instruments in general, but I've been pretty involved in the fantasy genre for a long time. A large harp stationed in a throne room is a fairly common element/trope of fantasy... usually with an elegant woman or lady playing it. The smaller, portable harps are associated with bards (all variations; magic, fighters, magic fighters, or merely musicians), which I think is the archetype Rhaegar has always triggered in my mind. He of course made a successful effort in shifting from an intellectual into a warrior, but it's fairly clear he preferred the harp over the sword.  

<snip>

I think it's a pretty big freaking harp. That said, I'm not at all knowledgeable in musical instruments. But in depictions I've seen of Rhaegar w/ the silver stringed harp, it's always a big proper harp. 

[SFDanny]

It is important to look at whole quotes and not truncate them.

Quote

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers." (AGoT 35-36) bold emphasis added.

Here it is critical to note that Lyanna's fears are gone when Ned gives her his promises. That tells us two things. First that Lyanna feared Ned would not promise her something, and, second, that Ned did promise her something that removed those fears. It is beyond silly to believe that the location of Lyanna's remains is the promise that removes her fears. The idea Ned would not bury his sister in the crypts has no basis from anything in the books. Eddard may well have made such a promise, but that is not what removed Lyanna's fear,

The reader has to ask what promise could Lyanna ask that could possibly test Ned's loyalty to his sister? The answer is very likely to be Ned's loyalty to someone else. Who can that be? Catelyn? Ashara? Robert? Ned, himself?

A case can be made for all of these, but I think the only strong case is that Lyanna worried about Ned's loyalty to his closer-than-a-brother and new king, Robert. If true, the only promise that would test Ned's loyalty between Robert or Lyanna is if Jon is Rhaegar's son and Lyanna is his mother. Then bringing Jon home and claiming him as his natural son, as we know Ned did, would be treason to his king and breaking of his oath of fealty to Robert. This is what makes most sense and is the most likely.

@Traverys just a note, or perhaps a personal request. Please keep show content, even in spoiler tags, in the show forums. Not here. The show means nothing to these discussions. It long ago became clear that the show runners have decided not to be faithful to the books. What they decide or have decided to do with Martin's story is not relevant to the books or this forum's discussions. In my case, I read spoilers from the released TWoW chapters and have no problem with anyone making references to them here, as long as they are properly tagged as such, but many readers, myself included avoid the show forums like the plague.

[Traverys]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

But as you can probably tell, I'm not a huge fan of the idea either. My take on the crypts importance and role in revealing Jon's parentage is more along the lines of the crypts being, among other things, an important hub n the weirnet. So maybe something similar to what happened when Bran and Rickon saw Ned down there and knew he was dead. 

I was gonna play devil's advocate and say "Well, why should anyone believe Bran and what he sees in the weirnet? Pretty convenient for a Stark to name his bastard brother as a claimant to the throne." But instead, it kind of dawned me to question something more fundamental: What would Jon be able to accomplish by proving (not just learning about) his heritage that he wouldn't otherwise? Or, in other words, what's the point of proving his parentage? (The following are mostly rhetorical question, for the record.)

1. Do we want him to find out so he can finally try to lay to rest the insecurities he has about being the primary taint on his father's honor? This is actually my reason; it's nothing fancy and probably the least exciting, but it is what it is.
2. Will he not be able to fill the roles of the Prince that was Promised and/or Azor Ahai if he doesn't prove his parentage? This of course depends on if you think he will end up being either of those foretold people, but I would venture to say no.
3. Do readers/theorists want him to be a/the king? Or, more importantly, would Jon want to be king?  
4. Do readers/theorists want him to be a dragonrider? If so, Wouldn't being a dragonrider be more proof of his heritage than a harp? Though perhaps they are complimentary. The harp could be evidence that there may be some merit to his argument, but proving to be a dragonrider would prove Valyrian/Targaryen blood.
5. By any manipulation of the laws marriage, does proving R+L=J really change the fact that he's a bastard? and Is there anything for Daenerys to gain by legitimizing him? To the latter, he could still serve all the functions she may require of him without being a legitimate member of her dynasty.

Anyways, the point of that list was just to highlight "Why does Jon need to prove his parentage anyways?" Pinpointing the why (which is entirely subjective to each reader at this point) is likely going to lead us to the how, because different people are going to require different levels of proof.

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I'm not sure that all the Starks think it was kidnapping/rape. Iirc, we never hear Ned thinking about it in those terms.

Very true. I've always felt that there were some pretty big holes in the tale about R+L, especially from the Starks. The biggest one is how Benjen took the black once Ned returned to Winterfell after Robert's Rebellion. It almost seems like a show of penitence on his part; perhaps Benjen knowingly helped Lyanna run away with Rhaegar and felt guilty about how it caused the death of his brother, father, sister, and a good portion of the realm. Ned was likely going to be Brandon's right hand, much like Kevan was to Tywin. It )seems, at least) like a common role for the second-born sons, which is in tune with our own medieval history. Benjen should have been this to Ned, not only to help Ned but to create another branch of the family. We've seen how quickly five trueborn children can be wiped out... at least according to the public eye.

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

But then it would have to be the high harp ser Barry describes, and we're back at how did Ned bring the thing all the way from Dorne to Winterfell with no one noticing it. To me this is a huge issue w/ the idea. 

I'm not sure I agree that there's all that much foreshadowing and hinting on the harp being there... 

I see your point a little bit. The biggest problem I have with saying that it would have been cumbersome is that Rhaegar apparently picked it up to play it. So, either he has more than one harp with silver strings, or the high harp doesn't refer to a huge harp like we (including me) have assumed. Unfortunately, going back to the text, the wording does not clear up the answer for us.

Here are all the instances of Rhaegar and his silver-stringed harp being mentioned/observed/recalled from ACoK to ADwD, in order:

"“There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.” He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings." ACoK, (p.527; Daenerys)

"Dany could not let it go. “His is the song of ice and fire, my brother said. I’m certain it was my brother. Not Viserys, Rhaegar. He had a harp with silver strings.” Ser Jorah’s frown deepened until his eyebrows came together. “Prince Rhaegar played such a harp,” he conceded." ACoK, (p. 660; Daenerys)

"It was said that no man ever knew Prince Rhaegar, truly. I had the privilege of seeing him in tourney, though, and often heard him play his harp with its silver strings.” ASoS (p. 110; Daenerys)

"Yes. And yet Summerhall was the place the prince loved best. He would go there from time to time, with only his harp for company. Even the knights of the Kingsguard did not attend him there. He liked to sleep in the ruined hall, beneath the moon and stars, and whenever he came back he would bring a song. When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings and sing of twilights and tears and the death of kings, you could not but feel that he was singing of himself and those he loved.” ASoS (p. 587; Daenerys)

"Many a night she had watched Prince Rhaegar in the hall, playing his silver-stringed harp with those long, elegant fingers of his." AFfC, (p. 404; Cersei)

"By night the prince played his silver harp and made her weep. When she had been presented to him, Cersei had almost drowned in the depths of his sad purple eyes." AFfC, (p. 405; Cersei)

"At the welcoming feast, the prince had taken up his silver-stringed harp and played for them. A song of love and doom, Jon Connington recalled, and every woman in the hall was weeping when he put down the harp." ADwD (p. 803; Jon Connington)

 

You're welcome, thread. Someone let me know if I missed one but I used a kindle search for "harp." It's not a commonly used word, surprisingly.

The point is, the use of the words harp and high harp are irregular. In the two quotes that indicate that Rhaegar played a lap harp with silver-strings, it is not referred to as a high harp. This may or may not be significant because even outside of these two instances his harp is not always referred to as a high harp. Some are gonna say they are all the same, portable harp. Others will say there are two different harps with silver strings, one big and one small. The less-than-clever will say there is even a third made purely of silver (thanks, Cersei... ).

I'm inclined to believe they are all the same harp just because (1) we have no reason to believe there is more than one harp, and (2) there is no evidence that a high harp is different than a regular harp, especially when it comes to size. Like i said in an earlier post, up until today I assumed the high harp was the big, station harps you sit beside in order to play. In Westeros, perhaps "high harp" is just a fancy word for a normal harp, like saying pianoforte instead of piano.

[kissdbyfire]

14 minutes ago, Traverys said:

I was gonna play devil's advocate and say "Well, why should anyone believe Bran and what he sees in the weirnet? Pretty convenient for a Stark to name his bastard brother as a claimant to the throne." But instead, it kind of dawned me to question something more fundamental: What would Jon be able to accomplish by proving (not just learning about) his heritage that he wouldn't otherwise? Or, in other words, what's the point of proving his parentage? (The following are mostly rhetorical question, for the record.)

1. Do we want him to find out so he can finally try to lay to rest the insecurities he has about being the primary taint on his father's honor? This is actually my reason; it's nothing fancy and probably the least exciting, but it is what it is.

Mine as well.

14 minutes ago, Traverys said:

1. Will he not be able to fill the roles of the Prince that was Promised and/or Azor Ahai if he doesn't prove his parentage? This of course depends on if you think he will end up being either of those foretold people, but I would venture to say no.

I don't think knowing and/or proving his parentage is essential for the fulfilment of any role, be it AAR, PTWP, King of Winter, whatever. What matters is who he is and what special abilities he has due to his doubly "magical" lineage. 

ps: stupid tablet renumbers the posts once you break them up. Now they're all # 1

14 minutes ago, Traverys said:

1. Do readers/theorists want him to be a/the king? Or, more importantly, would Jon want to be king? 

 

I don't. And I don't think he does either, even if it would mean ridding him of all the issues he has b/c he's a bastard.

14 minutes ago, Traverys said:

1. Do readers/theorists want him to be a dragonrider? If so, Wouldn't being a dragonrider be more proof of his heritage than a harp? Though perhaps they are complimentary. The harp could be evidence that there may be some merit to his argument, but proving to be a dragonrider would prove Valyrian/Targaryen blood.

Not really, but I've kind of made peace with the idea. And regarding being a dragonrider as proof of Targ blood, sorta. But apparently you don't need an awful lot of Targ blood to ride a dragon. 

14 minutes ago, Traverys said:

1. By any manipulation of the laws marriage, does proving R+L=J really change the fact that he's a bastard? and Is there anything for Daenerys to gain by legitimizing him? To the latter, he could still serve all the functions she may require of him without being a legitimate member of her dynasty.

Yes, he's not a bastard if Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. 

14 minutes ago, Traverys said:

Anyways, the point of that list was just to highlight "Why does Jon need to prove his parentage anyways?" Pinpointing the why (which is entirely subjective to each reader at this point) is likely going to lead us to the how, because different people are going to require different levels of proof.

Very true. I've always felt that there were some pretty big holes in the tale about R+L, especially from the Starks. The biggest one is how Benjen took the black once Ned returned to Winterfell after Robert's Rebellion. It almost seems like a show of penitence on his part; perhaps Benjen knowingly helped Lyanna run away with Rhaegar and felt guilty about how it caused the death of his brother, father, sister, and a good portion of the realm. Ned was likely going to be Brandon's right hand, much like Kevan was to Tywin. It )seems, at least) like a common role for the second-born sons, which is in tune with our own medieval history. Benjen should have been this to Ned, not only to help Ned but to create another branch of the family. We've seen how quickly five trueborn children can be wiped out... at least according to the public eye.

I agree it's possible Benjen may have helped Lyanna somehow or at the very least he knew something. And that the horror that followed may have played a part in prompting him to join right then and there. But... we know he was very keen on joining long before Lyanna's disappearance; to be precise, since the Tourney at Harrenhal. 

14 minutes ago, Traverys said:

I see your point a little bit. The biggest problem I have with saying that it would have been cumbersome is that Rhaegar apparently picked it up to play it. So, either he has more than one harp with silver strings, or the high harp doesn't refer to a huge harp like we (including me) have assumed. Unfortunately, going back to the text, the wording does not clear up the answer for us.

Here are all the instances of Rhaegar and his silver-stringed harp being mentioned/observed/recalled from ACoK to ADwD, in order:

"“There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.” He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings." ACoK, (p.527; Daenerys)

"Dany could not let it go. “His is the song of ice and fire, my brother said. I’m certain it was my brother. Not Viserys, Rhaegar. He had a harp with silver strings.” Ser Jorah’s frown deepened until his eyebrows came together. “Prince Rhaegar played such a harp,” he conceded." ACoK, (p. 660; Daenerys)

"It was said that no man ever knew Prince Rhaegar, truly. I had the privilege of seeing him in tourney, though, and often heard him play his harp with its silver strings.” ASoS (p. 110; Daenerys)

"Yes. And yet Summerhall was the place the prince loved best. He would go there from time to time, with only his harp for company. Even the knights of the Kingsguard did not attend him there. He liked to sleep in the ruined hall, beneath the moon and stars, and whenever he came back he would bring a song. When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings and sing of twilights and tears and the death of kings, you could not but feel that he was singing of himself and those he loved.” ASoS (p. 587; Daenerys)

"Many a night she had watched Prince Rhaegar in the hall, playing his silver-stringed harp with those long, elegant fingers of his." AFfC, (p. 404; Cersei)

"By night the prince played his silver harp and made her weep. When she had been presented to him, Cersei had almost drowned in the depths of his sad purple eyes." AFfC, (p. 405; Cersei)

"At the welcoming feast, the prince had taken up his silver-stringed harp and played for them. A song of love and doom, Jon Connington recalled, and every woman in the hall was weeping when he put down the harp." ADwD (p. 803; Jon Connington)

 

You're welcome, thread. Someone let me know if I missed one but I used a kindle search for "harp." It's not a commonly used word, surprisingly.

The point is, the use of the words harp and high harp are irregular. In the two quotes that indicate that Rhaegar played a lap harp with silver-strings, it is not referred to as a high harp. This may or may not be significant because even outside of these two instances his harp is not always referred to as a high harp. Some are gonna say they are all the same, portable harp. Others will say there are two different harps with silver strings, one big and one small. The less-than-clever will say there is even a third made purely of silver (thanks, Cersei... ).

I'm inclined to believe they are all the same harp just because (1) we have no reason to believe there is more than one harp, and (2) there is no evidence that a high harp is different than a regular harp, especially when it comes to size. Like i said in an earlier post, up until today I assumed the high harp was the big, station harps you sit beside in order to play. In Westeros, perhaps "high harp" is just a fancy word for a normal harp, like saying pianoforte instead of piano.

Good points about the harp(s). We'll find out sooner or later!

[Ygrain]

6 hours ago, SFDanny said:

A case can be made for all of these, but I think the only strong case is that Lyanna worried about Ned's loyalty to his closer-than-a-brother and new king, Robert. If true, the only promise that would test Ned's loyalty between Robert or Lyanna is if Jon is Rhaegar's son and Lyanna is his mother. Then bringing Jon home and claiming him as his natural son, as we know Ned did, would be treason to his king and breaking of his oath of fealty to Robert. This is what makes most sense and is the most likely.

 

Indeed. Because this is, once again, the theme of duty versus love: by the codes of honour, the duty and loyalty to the liege (Robert) should come before love and family (Lyanna), and here the matter was even more complicated, due to Ned's friendship with Robert and perhaps also by the murders of Rickard and Brandon, for which Lyanna may have felt responsible.

[Ygrain]

Re: harp:

I'm not an expert on instruments, either, but I can offer a comparison in Mary Stewart's Merlin trilogy. There, Merlin has a small, portable harp which is held on the knees, but also mentions several times a bigger one, standing on the floor, which he played to the gathered nobles when travelling in the disguise of a singer. So either Rhaegar had just the smaller harp (one that can be picked, which is definitely not the case of that big standing version), or had a smaller one for his personal use and a big one when performing for the court. IMHO.

[Traverys]

51 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Re: harp:

I'm not an expert on instruments, either, but I can offer a comparison in Mary Stewart's Merlin trilogy. There, Merlin has a small, portable harp which is held on the knees, but also mentions several times a bigger one, standing on the floor, which he played to the gathered nobles when travelling in the disguise of a singer. So either Rhaegar had just the smaller harp (one that can be picked, which is definitely not the case of that big standing version), or had a smaller one for his personal use and a big one when performing for the court. IMHO.

Right, it's certainly possible. It's mentiond Rhaegar traveled alone (even sans kingsguard) with a harp to Summerhall, and upon his return he played the (melancholic) tunes he composed on his high harp for the court.

I feel like I completely derailed the topic on this harp theory that I don't even necessarily put a lot of stock in! My bad. I think the strongest (and simplest) possibility is that Lyanna was asking him to find a way to protect Jon from Robert. However, at least the harp theory gives the latter a run for its money by actually having some relevance and good quotes for context. The rule of Chekov's Gun suggests you don't mention objects (especially not several times across books) that will never have any importance in the plot. So, in my opinion, it'll be related to something in the future. Whether it's part of the "promise me" will be interesting to (finally) find out.

I'm not sure if any other theories really can compare to these two at all in the end. Anyone know of any?

[purple-eyes]

Lyanna's tomb is actually an X-space. there are her bones, Rhaegar's silver harp, Rhaegar's ashes, dragon egg, Torren's crown, Targaryen wedding cloak,  Lyanna's dead rose crown and rose petals, Jon's birth certificate, Lyanna and Rhaegar's marriage certificate, Lyanna's shield as Kinght of laughing tree, Rhaegar's ancient scrolls, oh wait, also Rhaegar's royal decree to annul his first marriage and anounce his two elder children are bastards. 

[Wolfgirly]

If Rhaegar's harp is found in Lyanna's tomb that would really be something.

 

[Prof. Cecily]

On 5/28/2017 at 9:24 AM, SeaWitch said:

In another thread, there was some spitballing re the Silent Sisters, and I commented that nobody would check a body/bones they were transporting.  If Ned sent Lyanna's bones ahead with the Sisters, he could reasonably have anything else hidden in there.

(Bones and harps have a link in a few ballads. 'Binnorie' for example.)

I'm on my second coffee and just read your post, @SeaWitch. We seem to have crossed posts. Could you shout me a link to the thread talking about the Silent Sisters,please?

IIRC, after the Hand's Tourney, Ned instructs the Silent Sisters to send Hugh of the Vale's bones back to the Vale. As for Lyanna's bones, how do the logistics work there?

Would Ned have accompanied the cortege back to Winterfell with little Jon and his army?

 

What makes the most sense here?

 

 

20 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Well, it's an ex post PoV for one, and it speaks only about his arrival to Winterfell, not the whole journey from the South.

Well, we have Ned, his army, Lyanna's bones (entrusted to the Silent Sisters(mayhaps?)) and Jon + wet nurse en route to Winterfell.

And we know know Ned arrives at Winterfell with Jon.

That leaves the armies and the bones. 

Does a formal cortege travelling up from Dorne make sense?

 

13 hours ago, Wolfgirly said:

So Rhaegar took his harp with him when he "kidnapped" Lyanna. He must've known that he wouldn't be returning home.

 

Rhaegar was accompanied by two KG when he carried off Lyanna. Yet somehow I don't imagine those four people travelling with a wagon loaded down with goods.

Do you have any idea what a high harp weighs?

If Rhaegar took a harp, my bet would it was a lap harp.

 

7 hours ago, Traverys said:

 

... The biggest problem I have with saying that it would have been cumbersome is that Rhaegar apparently picked it up to play it. So, either he has more than one harp with silver strings, or the high harp doesn't refer to a huge harp like we (including me) have assumed. Unfortunately, going back to the text, the wording does not clear up the answer for us.

Here are all the instances of Rhaegar and his silver-stringed harp being mentioned/observed/recalled from ACoK to ADwD, in order:

"“There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.” He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings." ACoK, (p.527; Daenerys)

"Dany could not let it go. “His is the song of ice and fire, my brother said. I’m certain it was my brother. Not Viserys, Rhaegar. He had a harp with silver strings.” Ser Jorah’s frown deepened until his eyebrows came together. “Prince Rhaegar played such a harp,” he conceded." ACoK, (p. 660; Daenerys)

"It was said that no man ever knew Prince Rhaegar, truly. I had the privilege of seeing him in tourney, though, and often heard him play his harp with its silver strings.” ASoS (p. 110; Daenerys)

"Yes. And yet Summerhall was the place the prince loved best. He would go there from time to time, with only his harp for company. Even the knights of the Kingsguard did not attend him there. He liked to sleep in the ruined hall, beneath the moon and stars, and whenever he came back he would bring a song. When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings and sing of twilights and tears and the death of kings, you could not but feel that he was singing of himself and those he loved.” ASoS (p. 587; Daenerys)

"Many a night she had watched Prince Rhaegar in the hall, playing his silver-stringed harp with those long, elegant fingers of his." AFfC, (p. 404; Cersei)

"By night the prince played his silver harp and made her weep. When she had been presented to him, Cersei had almost drowned in the depths of his sad purple eyes." AFfC, (p. 405; Cersei)

"At the welcoming feast, the prince had taken up his silver-stringed harp and played for them. A song of love and doom, Jon Connington recalled, and every woman in the hall was weeping when he put down the harp." ADwD (p. 803; Jon Connington)

 

You're welcome, thread. Someone let me know if I missed one but I used a kindle search for "harp." It's not a commonly used word, surprisingly.

The point is, the use of the words harp and high harp are irregular. In the two quotes that indicate that Rhaegar played a lap harp with silver-strings, it is not referred to as a high harp. This may or may not be significant because even outside of these two instances his harp is not always referred to as a high harp. Some are gonna say they are all the same, portable harp. Others will say there are two different harps with silver strings, one big and one small. The less-than-clever will say there is even a third made purely of silver (thanks, Cersei... ).

I'm inclined to believe they are all the same harp just because (1) we have no reason to believe there is more than one harp, and (2) there is no evidence that a high harp is different than a regular harp, especially when it comes to size. Like i said in an earlier post, up until today I assumed the high harp was the big, station harps you sit beside in order to play. In Westeros, perhaps "high harp" is just a fancy word for a normal harp, like saying pianoforte instead of piano.

That a great list! Thank you for posting it up.

Still, try picking up a high harp and see how far you get.

Granted, harpischords are more difficult to transport.

 

This is way off topic, perhaps. No, not really. Rhaegar was a musician and a singer. 

GRRM doesn't seem to let singers off with happy endings- Marillion (with a wood harp) and the Blue Bard come to mind.

 

2 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

Lyanna's tomb is actually an X-space. there are her bones, Rhaegar's silver harp, Rhaegar's ashes, dragon egg, Torren's crown, Targaryen wedding cloak,  Lyanna's dead rose crown and rose petals, Jon's birth certificate, Lyanna and Rhaegar's marriage certificate, Lyanna's shield as Kinght of laughing tree, Rhaegar's ancient scrolls, oh wait, also Rhaegar's royal decree to annul his first marriage and anounce his two elder children are bastards. 

Oh, a dragon egg. I vote for a dragon egg!

[SeaWitch]

Rhaegar would probably travel with a clarsach, the small lap harp seen on Irish flags? The Celtic harp.  The big pillar harps tended to be reasonably stationary, because heavy.

....oops, crosspost with @Prof. Cecily The thread is hiemal's 'Sisters White, Blue and Grey', I can't put a link on this thing.

[Prof. Cecily]

11 hours ago, Traverys said:

I don't think any harp whatsoever would prove anything about Jon's heritage, which is my main criticism about the theory in general. A harp in Lyanna's tomb wouldn't be out of place to those who believed that she ran away with Rhaegar out of love. People are buried with sentimental objects all the time, and this practice can be traced all the way back to caveman times. It would be no doubt odd to find it in her tomb to others because of the official Stark position on the nature of her relationship with Rhaegar (i.e., rape). Perhaps it will just help further another part of the plot; gifting Rhaegar's harp to Daenerys when she arrives in Westeros would probably be very pleasing to her. Ser Barristan would be able to identify it on sight judging by the detail of the stories he told. But, that loops us back around to why so much foreshadowing in hinting (assuming it's true) has gone into this relatively ambiguous harp being in the Stark crypts...

Another question that springs to my mind now would be "are we sure that the high harp is what we think it is?" I always assumed it meant the large harps but not because of the name; I took "high" to imply sophistication or prestige rather than an indicator of height. However, a larger harp would have more room for strings and thus more notes to work with. That would make it more complex of an instrument and thus "sophisticated." But, it remains that we could be making an assumption about what a high harp actually is in the context of the story. 

I'm not very knowledgeable about instruments in general, but I've been pretty involved in the fantasy genre for a long time. A large harp stationed in a throne room is a fairly common element/trope of fantasy... usually with an elegant woman or lady playing it. The smaller, portable harps are associated with bards (all variations; magic, fighters, magic fighters, or merely musicians), which I think is the archetype Rhaegar has always triggered in my mind. He of course made a successful effort in shifting from an intellectual into a warrior, but it's fairly clear he preferred the harp over the sword.  

Ah, fantasy tropes. So much fun, aren't they? 

They're used so irregularly that it's hard to really know anything about them. Not to mention they don't speak so can't tell us! It seems the only reliable place for Silent Sisters is in King's Landing. Otherwise, we don't know (1) where they're trained, (2) where/how they live after they're trained, (3) how they are funded when tending to bodies and transporting them, and (4) if they are distributed across the realm like maesters, septons, and septas. Specific to the latter point, their work seems impractical for only one person to do so they'd have to be distributed in pairs or groups. It could be that they are all stationed in KL and when things like wars are happening they send out groups of Silent Sisters to attend to the highborn dead, but otherwise travel back to KL.

What we do know is that they are part of the Faith, so it could be argued either way whether Ned would want to enroll their services. We could say he would have welcomed the assistance, or we could say that as a follower of the Old Gods he found the Silent Sisters unsettling. The boon of using the Silent Sisters to assist is that if they saw something they shouldn't have they wouldn't tell anyone, but that doesn't prove he did use them.

But (lots of buts this post ) this also raises the question of how he prepared Lyanna's corpse for traveling, as we assume he didn't just let her rot the entire way. Usually Silent Sisters are in charge of corpse preparation in the south, but we don't have a clear idea of the customs of the north. Ned could have been assisted by the Daynes in that regard, but that's just a guess; no proof and no idea if there would even be Silent Sisters nearby.

And... we could be operating under the assumption that Ned did indeed inter Lyanna's bones in the crypts. He built cairns at the Tower of Joy, he could have buried her at the Tower and transported the harp in her "coffin" (or whatever Westerosi use). However, I think the wording often implies she is at rest next to her father and brother...

As a side note, how did Ned get his hands on Rickard and Brandon's bones? It actually seems a little odd that Aerys II didn't have them thrown out into the ocean or something like that. Aerys II perverted the trial by combat tradition of the Faith, I doubt he would be remiss to defile the corpse of an enemy like the Freys did.

Thanks for all that information! So much to learn, so much tinfoil to sort.

 

 

This always cracks me up about Ned Stark's "black of hair" and "golden hair" logic.

Ah, that made my morning!
 

Yeah, The Princess and the Queen is such a good story. So many badass Targaryens (who I typically am not partial to), especially the women. I was rooting for Rhaenyra when I read it and had no idea how the Dance of the Dragons resolved. When granny Rhaenys is ambushed by King Aegon II and his brother I always get chills at her response:

"Princess Rhaenys made no attempt to flee. With a glad cry and a crack of her whip, she turned Meleys toward the foe."

Amazing ladies, aren't they?

 

[Prof. Cecily]

On transport a high harp:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/ff/d9/eb/ffd9eb3aed320b009531aa35fce37730.jpg

Some people make it look easy!

 

[Prof. Cecily]

13 minutes ago, SeaWitch said:

Rhaegar would probably travel with a clarsach, the small lap harp seen on Irish flags? The Celtic harp.  The big pillar harps tended to be reasonably stationary, because heavy.

....oops, crosspost with @Prof. Cecily The thread is hiemal's 'Sisters White, Blue and Grey', I can't put a link on this thing.

As crossed as a harp's strings!

I'll find that thread you've named. Thanks!

Found-

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/146395-sisters-white-blue-and-grayspitballing-silent-sisters-in-the-faith/#comment-7936253

 

[Ygrain]

 

22 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

And we know know Ned arrives at Winterfell with Jon.

I'm not sure we can claim that - we know for sure that Ned and Jon had been at Winterfell by the time Cat arrived. Did Cat actually enquire who came when, or did she jump to a conclusion that being there together = arriving together?

22 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

That leaves the armies and the bones. 

And again, one unknown aspect - the last we know of the army is the siege of SE, and then it's only Ned and his six friends. Did the army remain at SE, or was it on the standby just behind the road bend at ToJ? It was the soldiers who brought the story of  a "single combat" with Arthur Dayne and returning Dawn to Winterfell, so there must have been some contact with the army post-ToJ, but it is not stated if they travelled together.

22 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Does a formal cortege travelling up from Dorne make sense?

Perhaps - sending Lyanna's bones via KL to distract Robert while Ned made that honourable detour to Starfall to return Dawn, might work quite well. IMHO.

[Prof. Cecily]

22 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

 

 

Quote

And we know know Ned arrives at Winterfell with Jon.

I'm not sure we can claim that - we know for sure that Ned and Jon had been at Winterfell by the time Cat arrived. Did Cat actually enquire who came when, or did she jump to a conclusion that being there together = arriving together?

Very true.  Without a direct POV, the idea of Ned accompanying Jon+wet nurse is pure speculation. 

Quote

That leaves the armies and the bones. 

And again, one unknown aspect - the last we know of the army is the siege of SE, and then it's only Ned and his six friends. Did the army remain at SE, or was it on the standby just behind the road bend at ToJ? It was the soldiers who brought the story of  a "single combat" with Arthur Dayne and returning Dawn to Winterfell, so there must have been some contact with the army post-ToJ, but it is not stated if they travelled together.

IIRC, the last we know of Ned's army is Ned has them racing to KL, to take the city before Lord Tywin arrives. The rebel forces lose the race, hence the sack of KL.

True, for lack of a direct POV, we're simply speculating here!

 

Quote

Does a formal cortege travelling up from Dorne make sense?

Perhaps - sending Lyanna's bones via KL to distract Robert while Ned made that honourable detour to Starfall to return Dawn, might work quite well. IMHO.

It's an idea. I'm trying to make sense of these events and I see I have no grasp of a timeline and logistics involved. Has a reliable timeline been posted up on these events?

 

 

 

 

[Traverys]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Perhaps - sending Lyanna's bones via KL to distract Robert while Ned made that honourable detour to Starfall to return Dawn, might work quite well. IMHO.

It doesn't quite add up for me because Robert Baratheon specifically asked Ned about Wylla (who he presumed to be Jon's mother). This happened in more than just the show. (@SFDanny will have to excuse me for mentioning the show inside their sacred bubble of General ASoIaF.). It seems more likely to me that he sent Wylla on her way to Winterfell while Ned distracted Robert with other affairs (such as Lyanna's bones and news of a bastard). He probably wanted to touch base with Lord Arryn as well. But, major point is that Robert had no idea what Wylla looked like:

Quote

“Her name was Wylla,” Ned replied with cool courtesy, “and I would sooner not speak of her.”

“Wylla. Yes.” The king grinned. “She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like …”

Martin, George R.R.. A Game of Thrones: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book One (p. 105). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Robert is such a perv. I always imagine him sounding ridiculously lewd while saying "Wylla. Yes."  Back to the topic:

In conclusion, Ned must have run into Robert between Starfall and his trip to Winterfell. As you suggest, it may have been to inform him in person that Lyanna was dead by presenting him with Lyanna's bones. Whether this was in the Red Keep, at Storm's End, or out in the field somewhere we will probably never know. Much like how R+L=Rape became the official story because Robert won the war and said so, Robert declaring Ned had a bastard bastard (we all know he had a big mouth) probably happened somewhere during this period of time.

But, to me, it makes sense to keep Jon as far away from Robert as possible. It makes me wonder if the reason Eddard didn't want to take Jon to court (when he became hand) was because of his parental roots. He uses a flimsy excuse about bastards at court. But Eddard would be Hand of the king, which comes with the benefit of very few people questioning you (unless you're an evil monkey dwarf). Not that Eddard ever really wielded the full power of his office (minus attainting Gregor)...

But back to bastards at court. To me, it seems like ladies are the most offended (understandably) by the presence of bastards. Bastards undermine their success at filling the only role allowed to them: having heirs for their lord husband. That being said, Cersei is the only major lady (until the Tyrell alliance) at court, and she seemed to only have a bone to pick with her husband's bastards. She puts Aurane Waters on her small council (and likely wants to sleep with him) as reagent later on.