The Anti-Targ Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 8 hours ago, boojam said: I put "an international accord that puts special controls" , in the context of the story as tortured logic , I can see the difference , I just don't buy it. This pretty well sums up my problems with Civil War: I dunno about you, but if I was living in the MCU I'd want the UN to put some kind of oversight on the international activities of these living weapons. Seems like sound logic to me, not tortured logic. Anyway, that's a discussion for another thread. Looking forward to Justice league I can possibly see some tortured logic on the horizon here. Some big bad (I assume alien, and likely a known supervillain from the DC comics) is going to be threatening the world. Somehow Wonder Woman, the Greek goddess, and her mates won't quite be able to do the job and Superman will deus ex machina his way into the final Act and brig us to a happy ending. Without Kryptonite getting in the way Superman is just too OP to be in the whole movie, the lesser heroes have to be given the chance to succeed, but then fail, so the world can cheer when Superman miraculously shows up, in yet another Jesus metaphor, rising from the dead and giving comfort to his disciples. Though I presume Diana and Bruce both know that Clarke's death was just a show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boojam Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 This question about Wonder Woman has probably been thrashed. When Diana talks about her origin she never mentions the 'clay story', a comic book fabrication that I guess was a Stork Story, so to speak. Then there is all the talk about sex and she knows the rest-of-the-story..about that..... so its like she knows? Implication seems she REALLY knows. Then at the end she says to Ares "Goodby Brother" .... like, well, she really knew all the time about being Zeus's daughter. I wonder why they played footsie with this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvinus85 Posted June 30, 2017 Author Share Posted June 30, 2017 13 minutes ago, boojam said: This question about Wonder Woman has probably been thrashed. When Diana talks about her origin she never mentions the 'clay story', a comic book fabrication that I guess was a Stork Story, so to speak. Then there is all the talk about sex and she knows the rest-of-the-story..about that..... so its like she knows? Implication seems she REALLY knows. Then at the end she says to Ares "Goodby Brother" .... like, well, she really knew all the time about being Zeus's daughter. I wonder why they played footsie with this? I don't think Diana's birth, whether purely biological or magical, has any relevance. She knows that Zeus was involved one way or another in her birth, therefore she identifies Zeus as her father. So of course she would say "good-bye brother" at the end. And no one, in that pivotal, dramatic moment, would take the time to say "good-bye half or step brother". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boojam Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 3 hours ago, Corvinus said: I don't think Diana's birth, whether purely biological or magical, has any relevance. She knows that Zeus was involved one way or another in her birth, therefore she identifies Zeus as her father. So of course she would say "good-bye brother" at the end. And no one, in that pivotal, dramatic moment, would take the time to say "good-bye half or step brother". I don't keep up with DCU , is Hera , Ares's mother in that universe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvinus85 Posted June 30, 2017 Author Share Posted June 30, 2017 34 minutes ago, boojam said: I don't keep up with DCU , is Hera , Ares's mother in that universe? I'm not familiar with it, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boojam Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 2 hours ago, Corvinus said: I'm not familiar with it, either. Well looking around a bit , DECU sort of changes with each new 'show runner', but they seem to keep an approximate frame work. According to what I see Hera is Ares mother which corresponds to classical Greek Mythology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boojam Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 13 hours ago, boojam said: Well looking around a bit , DECU sort of changes with each new 'show runner', but they seem to keep an approximate frame work. According to what I see Hera is Ares mother which corresponds to classical Greek Mythology. Which means she could have said "Half Brother" , but that would be really awkward. I wonder if the movie God-Cannon will become cannon? Since DCEU Zeus is reborn in a very confusing way. I don't like the idea of Zeus dying anyway, there has to be a more imaginative way of dealing with Olympus in the Wonder Woman saga. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 I loved this movie. Yes, it had its flaws and I thought the final confrontation could have been done better, but Gal Gadot owned every second of that movie and she truly did the impossible - her WW totally destroyed the two favorite American superheroes. Simply her WW has more charisma and spirit in one finger than Superman and Batman combined. I think she can be a wonderful link between movies (something like Rosario Dawson in Marvel/Netflix universe). Honeslt, I expect a lot from Ezra Miller, too. The two of them can balance nicely the two above-mentioned heroes. Aquaman and Cyborg are still unknown in that equation. I adored Robin Wright as her aunt (even though I was jokingly calling her antelope). As others, I am not sure about Diana's mother's reluctance to teach her how to fight. But, as origin stories go, this one was not so bad. Narurally, this one can not be not compared with "First Avenger". I think Cap 1 had more interesting supporting ensemble (led by amazing Hayley Atwell), while I did enjoy WW better. I think there is something so beautiful (yes, I know Ms Gadot is gloriously beautiful woman) in WW. It is a nice blend of inexperienced girl and warrior princess. And the best, it is not forced. They just allowed Ms Gadot to do it all together. Most movies make a thing of separating that childish naivete from the moment of true heroism. All in all, I am very happy to see WW doing so well. She may be the spark that will lead DCU in right direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PetyrPunkinhead Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 Just wanted to say I'm finally getting around to watching S3 of Fargo and David Thewlis' Ares ain't got nothing on David Thewlis' V.M. Varga. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel4s-JonSnow Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 Gadot certainly has more charisma than the latest incarnations of superman or batman. But for me man of steel was a better movie ( not many will agree I'm sure) and this doesn't come close to any of the Dark Knight movies. I don't think we should get ahead of ourselves about this movie. In reaction to DC's last 2 dire movies this is a big improvement , but it's not pushing any bars of quality in general Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 3 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said: Gadot certainly has more charisma than the latest incarnations of superman or batman. But for me man of steel was a better movie ( not many will agree I'm sure) and this doesn't come close to any of the Dark Knight movies. I don't think we should get ahead of ourselves about this movie. In reaction to DC's last 2 dire movies this is a big improvement , but it's not pushing any bars of quality in general I am more fascinated by Ms Gadot than by movie itself. It is not a perfect movie, far from it, but she makes it rather watchable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel4s-JonSnow Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 She's definitely one of the most amazing looking women I've seen on screen in a while. Whether that qualifies enough to make it a good movie I cannot say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howdyphillip Posted July 3, 2017 Share Posted July 3, 2017 On 7/2/2017 at 3:42 AM, Channel4s-JonSnow said: Gadot certainly has more charisma than the latest incarnations of superman or batman. But for me man of steel was a better movie ( not many will agree I'm sure) and this doesn't come close to any of the Dark Knight movies. I don't think we should get ahead of ourselves about this movie. In reaction to DC's last 2 dire movies this is a big improvement , but it's not pushing any bars of quality in general This statement had me spit out my coffee while reading it. Everything that Wonder Woman got right was things MoS failed at miserably. I am on the extreme here because MoS may be my least favorite movie of all time, but surely most people hold WW in a higher opinion. I also just did a rewatch of Nolan's Batman trilogy. If you take out Ledger's performance, it is pedestrian. This is why I can not rate them as the best comic book movies, but Ledger's performance is one of the best in any movie I have ever seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted July 3, 2017 Share Posted July 3, 2017 I think they're about equal. MoS had a few more flaws but more ambition too. Would have to rewatch WW before I can properly say, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel4s-JonSnow Posted July 3, 2017 Share Posted July 3, 2017 I often find in general your opinion of MoS has a lot to do with your attachment to Superman as a character. I personally have none, and so I don't mind them butchering your expectations of what Superman should be. Based purely audio/visually its a superior movie, it looks great and sounds great (Zimmers soundtrack is fantastic) , WW is bang average on both of those counts. I agree with Polishgenius, its a much more ambitious movie, even when it fails. WW is a lot safer in almost everyway, except that its got a female lead. I also find the plot and character development of MoS to be a step up from WW. There are plenty of arguments about the choices Clark makes in that movie, but at the very least he is on some sort of development arc and its at least attempting to make statements on his character and what its like to be a superhero. WW is far more shallow on that count. Basically War is Bad and people are violent and crappy. I didn't find that big news. As for the Dark Knight Trilogy, yes it has its ups and downs, but in scope and technical skill its brilliant, clearly the pinnacle of superhero storytelling. I even find TDK to be quite flawed, and am personally not a fan of Ledgers Joker (mainly due to it not hitting my preconceptions of how the joker should be, but hey at least hes not Jared Leto) but even then its a tier 1 superhero movie, because it works as a movie, even taking out the idea of superheroes inside it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted July 3, 2017 Share Posted July 3, 2017 2 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said: WW is a lot safer in almost everyway, except that its got a female lead. Yeah. Like, I understand why: WW is a lot like something like Force Awakens in that it needed to win back an angry fanbase of a franchise that was percieved as having gone off the rails and as such wanted to play with the broadest appeal possible. And it did that fine; better than TFA I thought. But it ain't no Mad Max Fury Road. MoS wanted to take some risks with the Superman character and while it did do some things I didn't like as a fan, particularly with Pa Kent, but it achieved quite a few of them and, like you say, visually/theatrically it was off the charts, and in this genre that is important. There were some cracking action scenes in WW, but I don't think any of them were as good as the Smalville fight (although the No Man's Land one had more heart while being lots slick in its own right, so on a rewatch I might put that one equal), and while the final throwdown was too long, it felt real in a way the Ares scene didn't. I mean, don't get me wrong, I like WW a lot. I think in many ways it's quite similar to Batman Begins, with what it does, and probably about as good as that too. Better than most if not all of the Marvel character intro movies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel4s-JonSnow Posted July 3, 2017 Share Posted July 3, 2017 Yeah exactly. WW hit all the necessary marks and didn't do too much wrong. It's plot line was the essential formula for origin movies since the beginning of time, it had a fateful love interest that sort of worked, and a tie into a big bad at the end that gave us a big over the top fight. But it didn't take many risks, and so all you were left with is a mostly enjoyable cookie cutter movie with a hot lead. You could compare it to Captain America first avenger. Both have similar failings and strengths. For me Cap has a much better first half but totally loses me at the halfway point, I did like the way they used cap as propaganda a lot though. WW is more even, it starts in a bland ok fashion whilst maintaining that throughout. Its odd that even without Snyder involved the action in WW feels almost more Snyderesque than MoS which is pretty soft touch in comparison to BVS But yeah, WW did what it needed to do, produced a solid, not horrible movie, got people interested in DC again. I'm not hopeful they can keep it up though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted July 3, 2017 Share Posted July 3, 2017 I dunno. WW succeeds where MoS fails in that it actively objects the grim superhero vibe and having people who are realistic and pessimistic in favor of something not really seen in superheroes in almost 30 years - a genuinely, honestly and nicely idealistic hero. In this it was exceptionally risky as there's basically nothing else on the market even close to it. That it's also the first female superhero movie which is awesome is another risk that is ignored here. Yeah, the plot wasn't incredibly risky or trying to do anything super insane, but I think that ignores the stuff that it does do and makes it look effortless. People's favorite part - the Amazonian island - could have easily been done completely lamely, and we know this because quite often they have done it lamely in various iterations - but they took it seriously and thoughtfully, and as a result it was totally awesome. The part that is lauded outside of Themiscryia is the trench scene, and that was something that they fought to keep in over and over; other superhero movies have that cut out because they don't believe in an act 2 any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel4s-JonSnow Posted July 3, 2017 Share Posted July 3, 2017 well it's not the first female led superhero movie, it's probably the best one but that is an incredibly low bar. I'm not sure why people give it a pass for that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel4s-JonSnow Posted July 3, 2017 Share Posted July 3, 2017 and she's hardly the first honest idealistic superhero. The movie is a patch work of a bunch of other ideas. Let's just admit that. Well stitched together but that's all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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