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Venus of the Woods (The Weirwood Goddess)


LmL

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Hi there friends. I have a question for you. Why do so many women in the story turn into weirwoods? It happens over and over again. Here's what I mean. 

The weirwood resembles a bleeding and burning tree person. It has the bloody face, of course - the carved eyes and mouth which 'bleed' red sap. The red, five-pointed leaves are introduced to us in AGOT as looking like "a thousand bloodstained hands." Those hands can also be thought of as the tree's hair - the leaves on a tree look like it's hair, especially when the trunk has a face. So, bloody hands, bloody mouth, bloody tears, bloody hair - these are the symbols of the weirwood. I say it looks to be bleeding AND burning based on a quote from ACOK:

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The red leaves of the weirwood were a blaze of flame among the green. Ned Stark's tree, he thought, and Stark's wood, Stark's castle, Stark's sword, Stark's gods.

The point of this description is to have us associate the weirwoods with the idea of a burning tree and the "fire of the gods." Think of Moses's burning bush - it burned but was not consumed (like Lightbringer or dragonglass candles), and in it, an angel appeared and spoke with the voice of god, transmitting god's wisdom to Moses and enabling Moses to perform later miracles such as turning his staff into a snake and back again. The other clue about the weirwoods being a symbolic 'burning tree' comes from the Grey King legend of the Storm God's thunderbolt setting a tree ablaze, enabling the Grey King to possess the fire of the gods for mankind. I believe the burning tree in this story is the weirwood, and possessing its fire means hooking up to the wwnet and becoming a greenseer. The Grey King's other legend also hints at his being a greenseer - he sat on a throne of "Nagga's jaws," but "Nagga's Bones" appear to be petrified weirwood, and thus his throne may have been weirwood as well.  Interestingly, Grey King was said to possess "Nagga's living fire" by slaying her - if Nagga's bones are weirwood, then again we have a clue about obtaining the living fire of the gods from a weirwood. 

So, that's the fire component, and that is why I describe the weirwoods as perpetually bleeding and burning tree people. In addition to the symbolism of the bloody mouth, bloody hands, red or bloody eyes, and bloody hair, we can also think about red, "kissed by fire" hair, or burning hands, burning hair, shifting robes that make one look on fire (think of Mel and the red priests here) as weirwood symbolism. 

There's also a line of symbolism concerning the red smile and having your tongue torn out. The weirwoods are silent - they appear to be screaming or laughing, but make no sound. Their bloody mouths suggest one who has had their tongue torn out, and there's a deeper metaphysical thing here with losing your physical tongue but gaining the speech of the gods, a la Odin sacrificing his physical eye to open his third eye. The red smile is what you call it when you slice someone's throat - the standard way to sacrifice an animal or person for religious purposes - but a red smile is also what the weirwoods have - literally a red, bloody smile.

The point is that I have found many occurrences of women who gain most or all of these symbols during key transformative moments (for many of them, it's a death transformation, either symbolically or literally). They appear to be turning into weirwoods. Here's what I mean, from the Varamyr prologue of ADWD:

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Thistle had returned to him. She had him by the shoulders and was shaking him, shouting in his face. Varamyr could smell her breath and feel the warmth of it upon cheeks gone numb with cold. Now, he thought, do it now, or die.

He summoned all the strength still in him, leapt out of his own skin, and forced himself inside her.

Thistle arched her back and screamed.

Abomination. Was that her, or him, or Haggon? He never knew. His old flesh fell back into the snowdrift as her fingers loosened. The spearwife twisted violently, shrieking. His shadowcat used to fight him wildly, and the snow bear had gone half-mad for a time, snapping at trees and rocks and empty air, but this was worse. “Get out, get out!” he heard her own mouth shouting. Her body staggered, fell, and rose again, her hands flailed, her legs jerked this way and that in some grotesque dance as his spirit and her own fought for the flesh. She sucked down a mouthful of the frigid air, and Varamyr had half a heartbeat to glory in the taste of it and the strength of this young body before her teeth snapped together and filled his mouth with blood. She raised her hands to his face. He tried to push them down again, but the hands would not obey, and she was clawing at his eyes. Abomination, he remembered, drowning in blood and pain and madness. When he tried to scream, she spat their tongue out.

The white world turned and fell away. For a moment it was as if he were inside the weirwood, gazing out through carved red eyes as a dying man twitched feebly on the ground and a madwoman danced blind and bloody underneath the moon, weeping red tears and ripping at her clothes.

 

Bloody tears, bloody mouth, presumably bloody hands (she rakes her own face, and wighted Thistle has frozen blood hanging from her fingers like "ten pink knives." We see the torn out tongue thing as well.

You will notice that when this 'weirwood stigmata' (as I like to call it) occurs, a skinchanger is trying to invade Thistle like a greenseer invading the weirwoodnet. Varamyr actually goes into the nearby weirwood and looks out through its eyes for moment, just to make it clear that Thistle herself is acting like a weirwood tree in some sense. 

The same happens to Cat, twice. First, the catspaw assassin event in AGOT:

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She reached up with both hands and grabbed the blade with all her strength, pulling it away from her throat. She heard him cursing into her ear. Her fingers were slippery with blood, but she would not let go of the dagger. The hand over her mouth clenched more tightly, shutting off her air. Catelyn twisted her head to the side and managed to get a piece of his flesh between her teeth. She bit down hard into his palm. The man grunted in pain. She ground her teeth together and tore at him, and all of a sudden he let go. The taste of his blood filled her mouth. She sucked in air and screamed, and he grabbed her hair and pulled her away from him, and she stumbled and went down, and then he was standing over her, breathing hard, shaking. The dagger was still clutched tightly in his right hand, slick with blood. “You weren’t s’posed to be here,” he repeated stupidly.

Then, a moment later, when Summer kills the assassin:

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They went down together, half sprawled over Catelyn where she'd fallen. The wolf had him under the jaw. The man's shriek lasted less than a second before the beast wrenched back its head, taking out half his throat.

His blood felt like warm rain as it sprayed across her face.

 

Bloody mouth, bloody hands, bloody face - and the suggestion of sacrifice to weirwoods. Varamyr died entering Thistle, and the catspaw assassin's blood rains down on Cat like a sacrifice "feeding" the heart tree. Cat also tears a chunk of flesh from the assassin's hand, more of the same idea. Also, during this incident, Cat's hair is torn out a bit, leaving her kissed by fire hair as bloody hair as well.

The, at the Red Wedding, it is even more vivid:

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She ran toward her son, until something punched in the small of the back and the hard stone floor came up to slap her. "Robb!" she screamed. She saw Smalljon Umber wrestle a table off its trestles. Crossbow bolts thudded into the wood, one two three, as he flung it down on top of his king. Robin Flint was ringed by Freys, their daggers rising and falling. Ser Wendel Manderly rose ponderously to his feet, holding his leg of lamb. A quarrel went in his open mouth and came out the back of his neck. Ser Wendel crashed forward, knocking the table off its trestles and sending cups, flagons, trenchers, platters, turnips, beets, and wine bouncing, spilling, and sliding across the floor.

Catelyn's back was on fire.

 

Cat has been set on fire, by a projectile from above, much like the tree that the Storm God's thunderbolt set ablaze. Next comes the weirwood stigmata:

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Her limbs were leaden, and the taste of blood was in her mouth.

We get a link to the previous weirwood stigmata scene:

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When she pressed her dagger to Jinglebell’s throat, the memory of Bran’s sickroom came back to her, with the feel of steel at her own throat.

And back to the stigmata:

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Robb had broken his word, but Catelyn kept hers. She tugged hard on Aegon's hair and sawed at his neck until the blade grated on bone. Blood ran hot over her fingers. His little bells were ringing, ringing, ringing, and the drum went boom doom boom.

Finally someone took the knife away from her. The tears burned like vinegar as they ran down her cheeks. Ten fierce ravens were raking her face with sharp talons and tearing off strips of flesh, leaving deep furrows that ran red with blood. She could taste it on her lips.

 

Cat's face is literally being carved here as she gets bloody hands, bloody mouth, bloody burning tears, and accepts the blood of the sacrificed Jinglebell (whose real name is Aegon...). 

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The white tears and the red ones ran together until her face was torn and tattered, the face that Ned had loved. Catelyn Stark raised her hands and watched the blood run down her long fingers, over her wrists, beneath the sleeves of her gown. Slow red worms crawled along her arms and under her clothes. That made her laugh until she screamed. “Mad,” someone said, “she’s lost her wits,” and someone else said, “Make an end,” and a hand grabbed her scalp just as she’d done with Jinglebell, and she thought, No, don’t, don’t cut my hair, Ned loves my hair. Then the steel was at her throat, and its bite was red and cold.

Note the red tears, and even more so, the red worms crawling over and around her. The weirwood roots which climb over, around, and through Bloodraven are described as graveworms. As Cat raises her hands to watch the bloody worms, she is even posing like a tree. Note the red smile she gets - she almost got one in the catspaw scene too, as the assassin was trying to cut her throat. 

So, you have to read the full essay to see what I think is going on with these and other such similar scenes, but I will tell you that I think this has to do with the first faces being carved on the trees and the first greenseers who ever entered the weirwoodnet. I also think it has to do with Azor Ahai - whom I believe represents a greenseer - entering the weirwoodnet. I think we are seeing a pattern of people who represent skinchangers and greenseers being sacrificed to the weirwood maidens, and I think this is recreating the way by which the first greenseers had to enter the trees - by dying. It might have looked something like this:

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Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand.

"No," said Bran, "no, don't," but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man's feet drummed against the earth … but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.

 

Finally, I will leave with one final teaser: Jon and Ghost. It's been pointed out many times in the books that Ghost has the same blood and bone coloring of the weirwood, with red eyes and jaws and white fur. Jon has been sacrificed - given a red smile, in fact, by someone whose name implies wood carving (Wick Whittlestick). Where is Jon going? Inside his weirwood colored wolf. This is the idea - Azor Ahai as a sacrificed greenseer who entered the weirwoodnet. And of course he didn't just enter, just as Jon will not simply enter Ghost, never to be heard from again. No, Azor Ahai has to also be reborn from the weirwoodnet, just as Jon will be reborn. This is why the weirwood tree works so well being symbolized by women - the weirwoods are the tomb of Azor Ahai and the womb of Azor Ahai reborn, I believe. It's actually parallel to one of the ideas about Yggdrasil, which is that the last survivors of Ragnarok hid inside the trunk of Yggy, only to be reborn afterward to start human civilization anew. Of course the weirwoods are heavily based on Yggdrasil ideas, so there you go. 

The full essay, entitled Weirwood Compendium 5: Venus of the Woods, is here at lucifermeanslightbringer.com. You can also listen to it as a podcast, either by clicking the player embedded in the essay or by looking up Mythical Astronomy on iTunes. Cheers everyone!

LmL

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From The Chronicles of Narnia, by C.S. Lewis

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Somewhere close by she heard the twitter of a nightingale beginning to sing, then 
stopping, then beginning again. It was a little lighter ahead. She went towards the light 
and came to a place where there were fewer trees, and whole patches or pools of 
moonlight, but the moonlight and the shadows so mixed that you could hardly be sure 
where anything was or what it was. At the same moment the nightingale, satisfied at last 
with his tuning up, burst into full song. 

Lucy's eyes began to grow accustomed to the light, and she saw the trees that were 
nearest her more distinctly. A great longing for the old days when the trees could talk in 
Narnia came over her. She knew exactly how each of these trees would talk if only she 
could wake them, and what sort of human form it would put on. She looked at a silver 
birch: it would have a soft, showery voice and would look like a slender girl, with hair 
blown all about her face, and fond of dancing. She looked at the oak: he would be a 
wizened, but hearty old man with a frizzled beard and warts on his face and hands, and 
hair growing out of the warts. She looked at the beech under which she was standing. Ah! 
she would be the best of all. She would be a gracious goddess, smooth and stately, the 
lady of the wood. 

"Oh, Trees, Trees, Trees," said Lucy (though she had not been intending to speak at all). 
"Oh, Trees, wake, wake, wake. Don't you remember it? Don't you remember me? Dryads 
and Hamadryads, come out, come to me." 

Though there was not a breath of wind they all stirred about her. The rustling noise of the 
leaves was almost like words. The nightingale stopped singing as if to listen to it. 

Lucy felt that at any moment she would begin to understand what the trees were trying to 
say. But the moment did not come. The rustling died away. The nightingale resumed its 
song. Even in the moonlight the wood looked more ordinary again. Yet Lucy had the 
feeling (as you sometimes have when you are trying to remember a name or a date and 
almost get it, but it vanishes before you really do) that she had just missed something: as 
if she had spoken to the trees a split second too soon or a split second too late, or used all 
the right words except one, or put in one word that was just wrong. 

Quite suddenly she began to feel tired. She went back to the bivouac, snuggled down 
between Susan and Peter, and was asleep in a few minutes. 

In the end it's the Solar Lion King, Aslan who wakes up the trees. But it's worth to remember that Lucy is the feminine form of Latin 'Lucius'. And that means Light. 

 

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"Now," said Aslan. "The Moon is setting. Look behind you: there is the dawn beginning. 
We have no time to lose. You three, you sons of Adam and son of Earth, hasten into the 
Mound and deal with what you will find there." 

The Dwarf was still speechless and neither of the boys dared to ask if Aslan would follow 
them. All three drew their swords and saluted, then turned and jingled away into the dusk. 
Lucy noticed that there was no sign of weariness in their faces: both the High King and 
King Edmund looked more like men than boys. 

The girls watched them out of sight, standing close beside Aslan. The light was changing. 
Low down in the east, Aravir, the morning star of Narnia, gleamed like a little moon. 
Aslan, who seemed larger than before, lifted his head, shook his mane, and roared. 

The sound, deep and throbbing at first like an organ beginning on a low note, rose and 
became louder, and then far louder again, till the earth and air were shaking with it. It 
rose up from that hill and floated across all Narnia. Down in Miraz's camp men woke, 
stared palely in one another's faces, and grasped their weapons. Down below that in the 
Great River, now at its coldest hour, the heads and shoulders of the nymphs, and the great 
weedy-bearded head of the river-god, rose from the water. Beyond it, in every field and 
wood, the alert ears of rabbits rose from their holes, the sleepy heads of birds came out 
from under wings, owls hooted, vixens barked, hedgehogs grunted, the trees stirred. In 
towns and villages mothers pressed babies close to their breasts, staring with wild eyes, 
dogs whimpered, and men leaped up groping for lights. Far away on the northern frontier 
the mountain giants peered from the dark gateways of their castles. 

What Lucy and Susan saw was a dark something coming to them from almost every 
direction across the hills. It looked first like a black mist creeping on the ground, then like 
the stormy waves of a black sea rising higher and higher as it came on, and then, at last, 
like what it was woods on the move. All the trees of the world appeared to be rushing 
towards Aslan. But as they drew nearer they looked less like trees; and when the whole 
crowd, bowing and curtsying and waving thin long arms to Asian, were all around Lucy, 
she saw that it was a crowd of human shapes. Pale birch-girls were tossing their heads, 
willowwomen pushed back their hair from their brooding faces to gaze on Asian, the 
queenly beeches stood still and adored him, shaggy oak-men, lean and melancholy elms, 
shockheaded hollies (dark themselves, but their wives all bright with berries) and gay 
rowans, all bowed and rose again, shouting, "Aslan, Aslan!" in their various husky or 
creaking or wave-like voices. 

 

So GRRM wouldn't be the first author to use 'Lion (as sun, note that this scene happens right after the morning star rises and dawn breaks) roars and wakes the trees'.

And the language Lewis used there is quite similar to ASOIAF's imagery.

 

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54 minutes ago, LmL said:

Hi there friends. I have a question for you. Why do so many women in the story turn into weirwoods? It happens over and over again. Here's what I mean. 

(...)

The full essay, entitled Weirwood Compendium 5: Venus of the Woods, is here at lucifermeanslightbringer.com. You can also listen to it as a podcast, either by clicking the player embedded in the essay or by looking up Mythical Astronomy on iTunes. Cheers everyone!

LmL

Hey ya! Good to see LmL once again, I'm almost done listening to the podcast and was dying to talk about it.

Once again, I'm a huge fan of your work. Really good stuff, keep it coming! I love your symbolic analysis - even if I'm not sure if I understand (or agree with) everything.

I'm trying to put together a resume of everything you have said so far, so please correct me if I'm wrong:

  • The Grey King (who may be the one known as Azor Ahai) was a green seer - a "naughty greenseer" 
  • He taped on some corrupt magic of a black stone meteor to enter the WWnet
  • He is responsible to breaking the moon and bringing the long night

I know you don't like to nail down the specifics of the time line, but... wasn't Azor Ahai worshiping a black stone that fell from the sky? If this black stone was a large chunk of the now-corrupted-and-broken-second-moon, how could he have used the corrupt magic of this black stone to enter the WWnet? He must have first entered the Weirwood to have been capable of pulling down the moon. No?

 

 

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Just now, sgtpimenta said:

Hey ya! Good to see LmL once again, I'm almost done listening to the podcast and was dying to talk about it.

Once again, I'm a huge fan of your work. Really good stuff, keep it coming! I love your symbolic analysis - even if I'm not sure if I understand (or agree with) everything.

I'm trying to put together a resume of everything you have said so far, so please correct me if I'm wrong:

  • The Grey King (who may be the one known as Azor Ahai) was a green seer - a "naughty greenseer" 
  • He taped on some corrupt magic of a black stone meteor to enter the WWnet
  • He is responsible to breaking the moon and bringing the long night

I know you don't like to nail down the specifics of the time line, but... wasn't Azor Ahai worshiping a black stone that fell from the sky? If this black stone was a large chunk of the now-corrupted-and-broken-second-moon, how could he have used the corrupt magic of this black stone to enter the WWnet? He must have first entered the Weirwood to have been capable of pulling down the moon. No?

 

 

Ah ha! @ravenous reader, look how quick @sgtpimenta was to put their finger on the space traveling greenseer paradox! Damn!

So, yeah, there's an issue here, or at least there appears to be. I do not actually claim to know exactly how the moon-breaking person or persons steered the comet. I have 2 primary mechanisms which are possible. The first would be the magical horns (think of Nissa Nissa's wail being said to have cracked the moon, and how Dragonbinder horn "splits the air like a swordthrust" and a "shivering hot scream." The horn is both a sound and a projectile / stabbing implement, and carries with it the connotation of horned lords and horned dragons. 

The second idea is weirwood-based astral projection, what we have come to refer to as "skinchanging the comet," though I am not sure it is that literal. All the clues about the trees reaching for the moon or scratching at the moon hint that the weirwoods had something to do with it, but we are left to speculate as to exactly how that works. Dany and Bran are the two people who think about flying and touching the comet or moon or anything along those lines, and one is flying with dragonpower and the other with weirwood power. I am working on an essay about these ideas - it all comes from Yggdrasil being Odin's horse which enables astral travel and Sleipnir also being Odin's horse which enables astral travel (it's the same idea expressed two different ways, and refers to shamanism and visionary experiences). The weirwoods are like an astral projection horse which the greenseer rides... to the stars, it would seem. 

In other words, we have two ways for man kind to potentially influence the heavens: greenseer flight and magical horns. Perhaps both were used, I do not know. 

What I do know is that the Grey King myth clearly implies that that the thunderbolt meteor set the weirwoodnet on fire. The Grey King did not possess the fire of the gods UNTIL the tree was struck and set ablaze. Again I do not know exactly how this works, but something about the meteor strikes seems to have awakened the wwnet, in some sense. Perhaps people could use the wwnet before then, but in a different way. Maybe no faces on the trees, something more psychic. Carving the faces on the trees is a violation, an invasion, imo, and the trees don't look happy. I have always wondered if there is a way to connect with trees without bloody face carving. Face carving might be a perversion of something older and more pure, less invasive. 

So, it would seem the meteor strike came before AA entering the net... but the clues about the trees pulling down the moon suggest he used the net to pull the moon down. It's a paradox, for now, but it's probably just a result of us not having figured some stuff out yet. 

A few people like the idea that the LN meteors were not the first magic meteors. The Dawn meteor may have come first, or perhaps the pearl the God Emperor of the Great Empire of the Dawn was a meteor. The first God-Emperor is a morningstar figure who descended and ascended to the stars, so maybe that's it. The original meteor opened the net, which was later used to break the moon. I don't think so, but it's possible.

As of now I lean towards the horn coming first and steering the comet into the moon, with the moon meteors then falling and setting the wwnet on fire somehow. But I am open to suggestions, so have at it :)

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1 hour ago, LmL said:

Hi there friends. I have a question for you. Why do so many women in the story turn into weirwoods? It happens over and over again.

I would like some ASOIAF text that suggests that many women turn into trees.

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4 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I would like some ASOIAF text that suggests that many women turn into trees.

We're speaking about symbolism and metaphors here.. And this trope is very common in myth and literature - for example Greek dryads or that Narnia fragment I've posted.

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1 minute ago, Blue Tiger said:
6 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I would like some ASOIAF text that suggests that many women turn into trees.

We're speaking about symbolism and metaphors here.. And this trope is very common in myth and literature - for example Greek dryads or that Narnia fragment I've posted.

Indeed. Symbolism!

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3 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

We're speaking about symbolism and metaphors here.. And this trope is very common in myth and literature - for example Greek dryads or that Narnia fragment I've posted.

 

1 minute ago, LmL said:

Indeed. Symbolism!

Sorry, I must have ventured into a thread that has nada to do with Martin's story. :blush:

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1 minute ago, Blue Tiger said:

Yeah... Because it's so weird to believe that a writer might use symbolism in his books.

 

I started reading the thread. I continued to read the thread. I was curious about why this statement was made.

2 hours ago, LmL said:

Why do so many women in the story turn into weirwoods?

Like I said I ventured into the wrong thread. If you would like to further explain why Martin has women turn into weirwood trees I'll read.

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1 minute ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I started reading the thread. I continued to read the thread. I was curious about why this statement was made.

Like I said I ventured into the wrong thread. If you would like to further explain why Martin has women turn into weirwood trees I'll read.

So, I explained the basics in the OP here, and further explanation is to be found in the longer essay I linked to. The weirwoods have a distinct set of symbols, as I laid out above - the bloody hands, eyes, mouth, hair, and smile - and it seems like many women are displaying most or all of those symbols, together, in key scenes, effectively transforming them into a symbolic weirwood. I thought I made that clear in the OP, and I think there are logical reasons why he would do this, which are explained in the essay (and hinted at here in the OP). But look, if you are against the idea of Martin using extensive symbolism, then you are certainly on the wrong thread. I'd go further to say you are missing a great deal of ASOIAF with that outlook, but that's just my opinion of course. 

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45 minutes ago, LmL said:

What I do know is that the Grey King myth clearly implies that that the thunderbolt meteor set the weirwoodnet on fire. The Grey King did not possess the fire of the gods UNTIL the tree was struck and set ablaze. Again I do not know exactly how this works, but something about the meteor strikes seems to have awakened the wwnet, in some sense. Perhaps people could use the wwnet before then, but in a different way. Maybe no faces on the trees, something more psychic. Carving the faces on the trees is a violation, an invasion, imo, and the trees don't look happy. I have always wondered if there is a way to connect with trees without bloody face carving. Face carving might be a perversion of something older and more pure, less invasive. 

It's funny you mention the face carving as a perversion, 'cause I was thinking the same about setting the weirwoods on fire. I mean,  no one outside the North gives those poor trees some love. The andals kings were always burning and chopping trees left and right. And the Grey King was the worst! Not only he set a weirwood tree on fire (provoking the Storm God like that, what was he thinking?!) but he also chopped lots and lots of white tree - enough to build himself a huge Ark! No wonder you don't see any weirwood on Essos...

Then again, maybe the weirwoods had it coming all along? All that talk about stigmata get me thinking: bone white and bloody leaves, mean expressions, skulls inside one's mouth... those trees sure look sinister! Ygg was a flesh eater, afterall... or so the legends go :D

 

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2 minutes ago, sgtpimenta said:

It's funny you mention the face carving as a perversion, 'cause I was thinking the same about setting the weirwoods on fire. I mean,  no one outside the North gives those poor trees some love. The andals kings were always burning and chopping trees left and right. And the Grey King was the worst! Not only he set a weirwood tree on fire (provoking the Storm God like that, what was he thinking?!) but he also chopped lots and lots of white tree - enough to build himself a huge Ark! No wonder you don't see any weirwood on Essos...

Then again, maybe the weirwood had it coming all along? All that talk about stigmata get me thinking: bone white and bloody leaves, mean expressions, skulls inside one's mouth... those trees sure look sinister! Ygg was a flesh eater, afterall... or so the legends go :D

 

I think the weirwoods might be dead, in a sense - wight trees instead of white trees. They might be no more than empty skins, host to the parasitic greenseer hive mind which has invaded it. I definitely think the faces on the trees express the voice of the greenseers trapped inside. You know about the idea of a fishing weir as a trap that catches fish, right?  It's also called a fishgarth, oddly enough. In any case, I have wondered if the "wwnet" is nothing more than the mind of the first greenseer or greenseers that went inside. It might not be a tree mind at all, though that's highly speculative. It's probably right to think about them as half dead. Alive but dead. You might also think about them as suspended between life and death, like Odin on Yggdrasil.

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@LmL @sgtpimenta

I really like this time paradox idea.  It has never crossed my mind but I think that's because of one of my initial assumptions when reading asoiaf.  These thoughts have been in my mind since reading book 1.  After first reading of the long night my mind immediately went towards a meteor strike.  I'm a sciencey kind of guy so that's natural.  LML has filled in so much of the symbolism and mythology for me via his podcasts, which I am very great full for and not too proud to admit I feel a small amount of shame for not yet donating to you (and you know Tom Cruise has some spare change laying around).

Ok, now I'll try to briefly explain what I'm talking about.  I'm not a long post person and don't feel the need to express every little detail that's in my head so keep that in mind:

Long Night?  No..... Long Night's.

Ive always believe the first cataclisym happened well before the first Long Night we hear of.  I completely agree with the two moons theory where one moon is destroyed via comet.  I don't think any greenseers or humans for that matter had a role in it.  The first event happened and the destroyed moon created an asteroid field or meteor belt or whatever you want to call it and now every ten thousand years (or so....) plentes's orbit passes through this dead moon debris and gets pummelled by meteors all over again creating a new long night.  The comet also comes and goes as it's orbiting the sun.  I do subscribe to the over arching theme of "as above so below."  I think the Long Night referened in our narrative simply refers to the last Long Night, not the first.  I think, as is true in real life, the actions of a few very special people in the books (at least those who think they are special - eg: the grey king, Garth, azor, rhaegar, pick any main or legendary character really) at times coincidentally line up with the celestial events in question and because these folks are so fond of themselves they find ways to explain it in an egotistic way, based on the mytholical base layers that already exist culturally, which do get passed down through the generations.  I certainly have more I could talk about on this but the general idea being that science can kind of explain what's happening.  I should have prefaced with "I believe we will see Long Night 2.0 before the end of the books - complete with a fresh batch of meteor impacts and all!  I don't want to imply I think there is NO magic in asoiaf, because we obviously have many many examples of where there is.  I do have some thoughts on how irregular planet rotation and orbits could cause the seasons being off, but honestly it doesn't add much for so in happy believe it's something based in magic.

Im typing this on my phone and I think that's about as much as a can get through in one go. I would love to continue this discussion if anyone is interested and I can't throw a few more of my thoughts out there.  If another thread is more appropriate please let me know.

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8 minutes ago, LmL said:

I think the weirwoods might be dead, in a sense - wight trees instead of white trees. They might be no more than empty skins, host to the parasitic greenseer hive mind which has invaded it. I definitely think the faces on the trees express the voice of the greenseers trapped inside. You know about the idea of a fishing weir as a trap that catches fish, right?  It's also called a fishgarth, oddly enough. In any case, I have wondered if the "wwnet" is nothing more than the mind of the first greenseer or greenseers that went inside. It might not be a tree mind at all, though that's highly speculative. It's probably right to think about them as half dead. Alive but dead. You might also think about them as suspended between life and death, like Odin on Yggdrasil.

Great stuff! I like it. That would explain why they do not rot. They are kinda like Coldhands. Also, it's just like GRRM to subvert the druidic tree-lovin-pacifist trope by adding some crazy zumbi-trees to his story.

Makes me wonder, thou: what was the original color pattern of those poor trees?

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25 minutes ago, Tom Cruise said:

@LmL @sgtpimenta

...

Im typing this on my phone and I think that's about as much as a can get through in one go. I would love to continue this discussion if anyone is interested and I can't throw a few more of my thoughts out there.  If another thread is more appropriate please let me know.

I'm not sure if I agree with everything, but I agree that there's something cyclical in the story being told. As before so again?

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24 minutes ago, Tom Cruise said:

@LmL @sgtpimenta

I really like this time paradox idea.  It has never crossed my mind but I think that's because of one of my initial assumptions when reading asoiaf.  These thoughts have been in my mind since reading book 1.  After first reading of the long night my mind immediately went towards a meteor strike.  I'm a sciencey kind of guy so that's natural.  LML has filled in so much of the symbolism and mythology for me via his podcasts, which I am very great full for and not too proud to admit I feel a small amount of shame for not yet donating to you (and you know Tom Cruise has some spare change laying around).

This made me guffaw :)

I was referring to the paradox as simply a sign we haven't worked everything out, not an intentional time-paradox... although... heh. I tend to shy away from time travel related theories because it's such a pandora's box. If time travel is not very strictly limited, anything is possible and every conspiracy takes life. I do think it's possible Martin is doing a bit of limited time travel - as least on the astral plain - so I am just kind of waiting to see how far he takes it. 

I have a feeling there is an answer to the question about the sequence of pulling down the moon and possessing the fire of the gods. My best inclination is that the sound / horns / singing came first. 

24 minutes ago, Tom Cruise said:

Ok, now I'll try to briefly explain what I'm talking about.  I'm not a long post person and don't feel the need to express every little detail that's in my head so keep that in mind:

Long Night?  No..... Long Night's.

Ive always believe the first cataclisym happened well before the first Long Night we hear of.  I completely agree with the two moons theory where one moon is destroyed via comet.  I don't think any greenseers or humans for that matter had a role in it.  The first event happened and the destroyed moon created an asteroid field or meteor belt or whatever you want to call it and now every ten thousand years (or so....) plentes's orbit passes through this dead moon debris and gets pummelled by meteors all over again creating a new long night.  The comet also comes and goes as it's orbiting the sun.  I do subscribe to the over arching theme of "as above so below."  I think the Long Night referened in our narrative simply refers to the last Long Night, not the first.  I think, as is true in real life, the actions of a few very special people in the books (at least those who think they are special - eg: the grey king, Garth, azor, rhaegar, pick any main or legendary character really) at times coincidentally line up with the celestial events in question and because these folks are so fond of themselves they find ways to explain it in an egotistic way, based on the mytholical base layers that already exist culturally, which do get passed down through the generations.  I certainly have more I could talk about on this but the general idea being that science can kind of explain what's happening.  I should have prefaced with "I believe we will see Long Night 2.0 before the end of the books - complete with a fresh batch of meteor impacts and all!  I don't want to imply I think there is NO magic in asoiaf, because we obviously have many many examples of where there is.  I do have some thoughts on how irregular planet rotation and orbits could cause the seasons being off, but honestly it doesn't add much for so in happy believe it's something based in magic.

Im typing this on my phone and I think that's about as much as a can get through in one go. I would love to continue this discussion if anyone is interested and I can't throw a few more of my thoughts out there.  If another thread is more appropriate please let me know.

Hey Tom, good thoughts. I must say that at first I was of the opinion that you express here - that the disaster could not have been caused by man, and that it was something that just happened. That makes more practical sense, for sure, and would still make a great story.

But.

I have found that all the key ASOIAF myths, or most of them, seem to have that Prometheus / Adam and Eve theme going on. It's always about man committing some original sin or theft. That is what brought me to looking for ways that magicians might.. somehow.. steer a comet into a moon. As strange as it sounds, that's what is suggested, in my opinion and others. I've actually put this out as an open question a couple of times, and most people seem to think that in a fantasy novel, there probably was original sin that 'caused it.' 

Since then, I have isolated those two techniques - the horns (probably accompanied by singing), and greenseer astral travel. @Evolett is actually the one who came upon the dragon horn idea, so all credit to her. My general credo is to follow the symbolism first, and then when we get to interpreting the repeated patterns of symbolism, that's when I use common sense and regard for the plot to stay on track. It may be that the idea of touching the comet is purely symbolic, but I will follow the symbolism as it leads and just kind of see where that gets us in terms of trying to figure out what the magicians actually did. 

Since you tend to think we will get another meteor event to trigger the inevitable new Long Night, we should see some kind of echo of what happened last time, and that will surely help us understand. 

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39 minutes ago, sgtpimenta said:
53 minutes ago, LmL said:

I think the weirwoods might be dead, in a sense - wight trees instead of white trees. They might be no more than empty skins, host to the parasitic greenseer hive mind which has invaded it. I definitely think the faces on the trees express the voice of the greenseers trapped inside. You know about the idea of a fishing weir as a trap that catches fish, right?  It's also called a fishgarth, oddly enough. In any case, I have wondered if the "wwnet" is nothing more than the mind of the first greenseer or greenseers that went inside. It might not be a tree mind at all, though that's highly speculative. It's probably right to think about them as half dead. Alive but dead. You might also think about them as suspended between life and death, like Odin on Yggdrasil.

Great stuff! I like it. That would explain why they do not rot. They are kinda like Coldhands. Also, it's just like GRRM to subvert the druidic tree-lovin-pacifist trope by adding some crazy zumbi-trees to his story.

Makes me wonder, thou: what was the original color pattern of those poor trees?

So, here you're getting into whitewashing territory, and we must summon @Pain killer Jane and @ravenous reader and @Blue Tiger. The three Norns were said to whitewash Yggdrasil every day, and there seems to be signs of George using that idea in regards to the weirwoods. I'm not the best to explain it, because I do not understand it fully. I'm not sure if it matters what they used to look like, only that we think of them as transformed and / or corrupted. 

There is a parallel line of symbolism that might indicate the weirwoods as transmuting the toxicity of the meteors and of the Azor Ahai presence in the wwnet. The roots are called graveworms - which burrow through black corruption in a Tyrion scene with significant symbolism, they are similar to maggots as eaters of the dead that can consume poison safely. It could be that the idea of the weirwoods as traps means they are restraining a dangerous entity, perhaps. 

Oak tress are interesting, because the oak is the tree of the Summer King in classic myth, whereas the Weirwoods are serving the role of winter king tree in ASOIAF. I think George is carrying over the oak / summer association, as we see Garth associated with Oaks, especially the Oakenseat which sounds like an above ground living weirwood throne, but oak. One of the three trees given faces by the wildlings on the way to Molestown is an oak (another is an ash, like Yggdrasil). I even caught Martin using the symbolism of a dead oak to allude to a weirwood, I think, which I noted in the green zombies series. It was the scene where the NW ranger Bedwyck, called giant, was sleeping inside of a dead oak and asked Jon how he liked his castle. I don't think the weirwoods are literally transformed oak trees, but he is playing on the idea of summer and winter kings alternating and taking each other's place. 

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Oak trees represent the thunder god Thor. 

Gods all have trees associated with them. 

The subject of this thread is beautiful.

Some of our own white trees: Silver birch, eucalyptus, white poplar, cypress, sycamore, ghost gum and aspen.

Weirwood trees are unique to Westeros but we don't have trees like this on our own planet. What we do have all places incredible links to gods, spirits, dryads, magic and healing.

Faces on the weirwoods trees were carved by the Children of the Forest.

Sorry I've read "A Game of Thrones" and halfway through "A Clash of Kings" so haven't come across all the amazing events.

 

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Hey @LmL,

 

A shy maid - Asshai maid - ash tree maid :thumbsup:  

 

Maekar does something like what Urron Greyiron does.  He kills his brother in a trial of 7, an event with 1 winner and 13 losers, and later becomes king.  He even makes a new crown with black iron spikes and red gold.  Its like a combination of Stannis' fiery (Night King?) crown and Robb's King of Winter one.   

 

@sgtpimenta,

 

About the paradox you brought up I am increasingly buying into a multiple person idea like what @Crowfood's Daughter suggested.  She makes the case that one angry brother, Garth, used the hammer of the waters as a weapon against the person we know as the Grey King because the GK killed Garth (turning him into the Barrow King who in turn made the GK turn grey due to the curse of the first King).  The Grey King may have wanted that and been ready.  He seems to have used it pretty well.  I think one brother killed another and put him into the WWnet.  He was somehow able to use the WWnet like none before him.  Maybe he was just the most magical person to ever die in Westros, first dragon blooded or first combination of dragon and greenseeer blood.  Maybe he was just the first magic person to enter it that wanted to do something catastrophic.  Whatever it was I suspect it was mixed with good old fashioned will to wrap up unfinished business like what animates most troublesome spirits.  Dead Garth in the WWnet is the weirwood hand reaching up from the land of the dead for the moon (who I think represents a woman like how Bloodraven has a woman he loved, a brother too and another he hates).  He drags it down, makes the faces in the trees like LmL says, and the GK is able to use the WWnet while alive or just undead as opposed to dead-dead.  I think that may be the new unholy result, greenseeing while alive for non-children.      

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