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Venus of the Woods (The Weirwood Goddess)


LmL

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4 hours ago, Luddagain said:

I think we should be a bit cautious about reading TOO much into symbolism, especially where it relates to women.

We should consider the personality of GRRM and the story HE is telling.  Also whatever we come up with needs to be consistent otherwise we are saying GRRM is a lousy writer, which he is not.

Now the FIRST thing when discussing this topic is to consider what we each think the weirwoods are and what GRRM intends them to be. For those dedicated to the heresy ideas they are evil etc but others (like me) will see them much more as a reflection of ancient tree worship with TWO key themes - Ygrasill of the Germanic Asgard legends and the "tree of life" idea of the Celts. The two are of course related and such tree worship was characteristic of Indo-European peoples stretching from India to Scandinavia.

However drawing on these two key themes we have of course obvious Odin/Wodan references that are too numerous to discuss here.  Bloodraven is so obviously an Odin figure that we must assume that all the other associations with this tree also are relevant. If we look we can find them. Wolves - all the Starks, ravens Bran and the NW, sacrificial hanging - Lady Stoneheart come on down, Val - seeress or Valkyrie. We have the hounds from Hel - the dire wolves and Shaggydog seeming to be a Fenrir figure. We have both the others from the ice world and the dead souls from Hel all coming to attack Asgard along with fiery sworded dragons (Dany) and probably a few giant serpents too  (I think these are earthquakes which will destroy the world,

OK so that is weirwoods with their Yggrysll symbolism, but there is ALSO the more celtic sense of weir woods as a life giving force - but this involves both LIFE and DEATH, summer and winter etc. Whereas i see the Westerosi of Andal origin very much following the idea of the weirwoods as a world tree I see the CoF and most of the Starks somehow connected to this aspect of the trees. It cannot be separated from the deep seated concept of the "dying god" involving death and renewal.  This is a core duality essential to the seasons and sustainable life. Thus juxtaposed we have black and white, summer and winter, life and death and sky versus sea. The "greenman" is the essential symbol of this aspect . Garth gardener and the Greenseers are keys here.

The connection of Arya as both black AND white - life and death seems obvious. Bran is  SUMMER - he is renewal and he is also the reincarnation of the green man -taking over from BR. He represents the future.  Who then is Winter. Here GRRM gives us a clue. In the dying god myths and practices of Europe at the Samhein festival (Halloween) they ritually killed the corn god sometimes referred to as a corn wolf - a WHITE corn wolf. His name was JOHN Barleycorn. I think we have it - John is King of Winter, Bran is King of Summer (the green man).

Arya possibly is  the balancing act - both life and death, however there are other possible dualities with her - sun goddess versus Sansa a moon goddess. Arya's associations are all with sun and sky related entities - Gendry the sun of a thunder god, Dondarrion the lightning Lord, Edrik from sunny Dorn (morning) and of course Nymeria who brought life to her people. Sansa by contrast is increasingly associated with ice and the moon. However supporting the idea of Arya being a sort of balancing act is the fact that she has strong water associations and in the celtic concept water is associated with death

 

Have you read my Green Zombie series? You probably like it alot, a lot of the idea you just mentioned are in there, and I also arrived at Bran as the summer king and Jon the winter king. 

I wouldn't worry about warning anyone here to careful though. We've all heard that before. 

Also, I sincerely hope you aren't implying my analysis is anything but tightly correlated to the text and the story HE is telling. One could almost read your words as an implication that I am not doing so, and that would be unfortunate.

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1 hour ago, Pain killer Jane said:

I think its Martin's way of pointing out a gross oversight in worship i.e. if the blood and flesh are holy then why isn't the piss and shit as well which he points out by equating blood and flesh with piss and shit. 

Hey PK.  Considering the 'cold cosmic shit stream' is a joint collaboration of ours, I was about to call you to the scatalogical discussion, but I see you already found your way by yourself!  ;)

To your point, this is also the reason GRRM associates the red 'right handedness' which is governed by the more 'rational, analytic' left hemisphere of the brain with the hero 'pissing' (see below); whereas 'left handedness' which is associated with the allegedly more 'intuitive, emotional' right hemisphere is linked to more 'noble' deeds like slaying people en masse...leaving one wondering if there's really a difference between the honor of the 'sinister' (i.e.= 'left' in Latin) and infamy of the 'dexterous' (i.e.= 'right' in Latin)!

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A Storm of Swords - Jaime VIII

"As you learned from Ser Boros and Ser Meryn?"

That arrow hit too close to the mark. "I learned from the White Bull and Barristan the Bold," Jaime snapped. "I learned from Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, who could have slain all five of you with his left hand while he was taking with a piss with the right. I learned from Prince Lewyn of Dorne and Ser Oswell Whent and Ser Jonothor Darry, good men every one."

"Dead men, every one."

Rather than setting up these dichotomies, GRRM wishes us to see Arthur Dayne as he sees him -- ambidexterous -- symbolically, honor and infamy in one.  This relation is illustrated graphically by the mud flats -- a faeces analogy -- at the Quiet Isle, which with the tide turn up precious red gems together with pale corpses:

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A Feast for Crows - Brienne VI

"When I died in the Battle of the Trident. I fought for Prince Rhaegar, though he never knew my name. I could not tell you why, save that the lord I served served a lord who served a lord who had decided to support the dragon rather than the stag. Had he decided elsewise, I might have been on the other side of the river. The battle was a bloody thing. The singers would have us believe it was all Rhaegar and Robert struggling in the stream for a woman both of them claimed to love, but I assure you, other men were fighting too, and I was one. I took an arrow through the thigh and another through the foot, and my horse was killed from under me, yet I fought on. I can still remember how desperate I was to find another horse, for I had no coin to buy one, and without a horse I would no longer be a knight. That was all that I was thinking of, if truth be told. I never saw the blow that felled me. I heard hooves behind my back and thought, a horse! but before I could turn something slammed into my head and knocked me back into the river, where by rights I should have drowned.

"Instead I woke here, upon the Quiet Isle. The Elder Brother told me I had washed up on the tide, naked as my name day. I can only think that someone found me in the shallows, stripped me of my armor, boots, and breeches, and pushed me back out into the deeper water. The river did the rest. We are all born naked, so I suppose it was only fitting that I come into my second life the same way. I spent the next ten years in silence."

"I see." Brienne did not know why he was telling her all of this, or what else she ought to say.

 

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A Feast for Crows - Brienne VI

Meribald performed the customary courtesies before seating himself upon the settle. Unlike Septon Narbert, the Elder Brother did not seem dismayed by Brienne's sex, but his smile did flicker and fade when the septon told him why she and Ser Hyle had come. "I see," was all he said, before he turned away with, "You must be thirsty. Please, have some of our sweet cider to wash the dust of travel from your throats." He poured for them himself. The cups were carved from driftwood too, no two the same. When Brienne complimented them, he said, "My lady is too kind. All we do is cut and polish the wood. We are blessed here. Where the river meets the bay, the currents and the tides wrestle one against the other, and many strange and wondrous things are pushed toward us, to wash up on our shores. Driftwood is the least of it. We have found silver cups and iron pots, sacks of wool and bolts of silk, rusted helms and shining swords . . . aye, and rubies."

That interested Ser Hyle. "Rhaegar's rubies?"

 "It may be. Who can say? The battle was long leagues from here, but the river is tireless and patient. Six have been found. We are all waiting for the seventh."
 

"Better rubies than bones." Septon Meribald was rubbing his foot, the mud flaking off beneath his finger. "Not all the river's gifts are pleasant. The good brothers collect the dead as well. Drowned cows, drowned deer, dead pigs swollen up to half the size of horses. Aye, and corpses."

"Too many corpses, these days." The Elder Brother sighed. "Our gravedigger knows no rest. Rivermen, westermen, northmen, all wash up here. Knights and knaves alike. We bury them side by side, Stark and Lannister, Blackwood and Bracken, Frey and Darry. That is the duty the river asks of us in return for all its gifts, and we do it as best we can. Sometimes we find a woman, though . . . or worse, a little child. Those are the cruelest gifts." He turned to Septon Meribald. "I hope that you have time to absolve us of our sins. Since the raiders slew old Septon Bennet, we have had no one to hear confession."

 

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1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

It's an interesting discussion, and it comes perilously close to something I've been wondering about in the story.  Clearly GRRM loves to reference/invert/subvert mythologies.  GRRM has created his own abduction myth with the Rhaegar and Lyanna story.  Whether or not the events unfolded like many of the readers are assuming, there are clearly two different mythologies involving this story.  The northern story of Rhaegar abducting and raping Lyanna without her consent.  And the Southern love story of Lyanna being a willing participant of the abduction.

With this myth, GRRM is clearly referencing the Rape of Persephone.  With Lyanna playing the part of Persephone and Rhaegar playing the part of Hades.  But in my mind, Rhaegar has always made a crappy Hades.  There really aren't any parallels other than the abduction story.

But Rhaegar as a stand in for Apollo seems to fit much better.  And the most famous abduction myth involving Apollo, was the abduction of Daphne, where she is turned into a tree to escape his grasp.  Which makes me wonder a bit if we'll find out if Lyanna's consciousness upon her death went into the weirnet.  After all it is Howland, who takes Lyanna's hand from Eddard after her death, and one of Howland's abilities was to "talk to trees".  

This would also be a clear parallel to GRRM's other Lya, who upon her death joins the collective Hive mind.

Hi FFT -- great insights, as usual!  :)

Howland taking Lyanna's hand from Eddard can be read as Eddard as acting head of his family, therefore the symbolic father, giving away Lyanna's hand in marriage to Howland!  With this gesture, she is marrying a greenseer, or 'wedding the trees,' just like Bran following his own symbolic death.

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1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

It's an interesting discussion, and it comes perilously close to something I've been wondering about in the story.  Clearly GRRM loves to reference/invert/subvert mythologies.  GRRM has created his own abduction myth with the Rhaegar and Lyanna story.  Whether or not the events unfolded like many of the readers are assuming, there are clearly two different mythologies involving this story.  The northern story of Rhaegar abducting and raping Lyanna without her consent.  And the Southern love story of Lyanna being a willing participant of the abduction.

With this myth, GRRM is clearly referencing the Rape of Persephone.  With Lyanna playing the part of Persephone and Rhaegar playing the part of Hades.  But in my mind, Rhaegar has always made a crappy Hades.  There really aren't any parallels other than the abduction story.

But Rhaegar as a stand in for Apollo seems to fit much better.  And the most famous abduction myth involving Apollo, was the abduction of Daphne, where she is turned into a tree to escape his grasp.  Which makes me wonder a bit if we'll find out if Lyanna's consciousness upon her death went into the weirnet.  After all it is Howland, who takes Lyanna's hand from Eddard after her death, and one of Howland's abilities was to "talk to trees".  

This would also be a clear parallel to GRRM's other Lya, who upon her death joins the collective Hive mind.

That's cool FFR, I will brush up on the Daphne myth. That sounds like a good fit. 

As for Rhaegar, he might not drip with Hades symbols, but I would say that the Azor Ahai reborn archetype that he plays in to IS saturated with Hades. Ned shows it better, as @sweetsunray has demonstrated (you are familiar with her work on Hades and Persephone, right?)

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8 minutes ago, LmL said:

That's cool FFR, I will brush up on the Daphne myth. That sounds like a good fit. 

As for Rhaegar, he might not drip with Hades symbols, but I would say that the Azor Ahai reborn archetype that he plays in to IS saturated with Hades. Ned shows it better, as @sweetsunray has demonstrated (you are familiar with her work on Hades and Persephone, right?)

@Frey family reunion

Rhaegar-Lyanna is a reversed Persephone myth. In aSoIaF, it's a prince from Mount Olympus (the living King's Landing), who steals a flower maiden from the underworld (the North). Lyanna is still a liminal character and thus very much a Persephone, since she belongs in both. But Rhaegar is not a ruler of the underworld. He is more like Orpheus (making Persephone-Lyanna weep with his music) trying to get his beloved from the underworld with his music, and a, underlying Paris-Helen abduction parallel that led to the Trojan war, with awarding the crown of love and beauty to Lyanna and then stealing her.

We do however have Ned taking Lyanna back North (her bones) and making her the queen of the crypts with her statue, and Robert resents Ned for doing that, thereby making Ned the Hades who takes Persephone to the underworld. 

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11 hours ago, LmL said:

Wow! Only a book and a half through and you're hanging out here huh? I assume you started as a show watcher? Well, nice to have you :) and thanks for the contribution. And yes, the Thor - Oak connection is probably something Martin would be thinking about since he seems to be using tree lore. Oak and ash are the two most prominent in Norse myth, so it figures. I know the birch tree has some good mythology, right? I haven't taken the time to look into all the various white trees, though that might not be a bad idea. 

You're right that we are told the children carved the faces - though Jon recalls both the children and the FM carving face son the trees, interestingly. I am actually suggesting a slightly heretical idea, that the children did not carve faces on the trees until man came, and specifically Azor Ahai and his crew, who may have started off as "green men," whatever those turn out to be. George says that the Isle of faces is coming to the fore near the end, so we should find out what's up with them. Anyway, you are right about the canon, but I am actually proposing an alternate theory, essentially. It could also be that the children carved the faces in response to Azor Ahai, or to facilitate him. The main thing I am proposing is that the face carving is tied to the Long Night meteors called down by Azor Ahai, and by Azor Ahai's desire to enter the weirwoodnet. 

Yes it's true that I've watched Game of Thrones all the way since the first episode and NOW started to read the books. I'm still on book two "A Clash of Kings". Thanks so much for the kind reply :)

You could be right about the faces being carved due to Azor Ahai. There's still so much about those trees that are a mystery though because they do something to Bran. I wonder if those trees are real trees at all and could be doorways. There is the mysterious other ends of the world such as the constant battle of nature in Old Valyria and the Faceless Men. Going back to the north, it strikes me that the Starks could be a remnant of werewolf (weirwood wolf) people. The Stark kids have dreams of being wolves. They're also much linked to the element of ice and snow, winter and cold. This makes me wonder about the title "Ice and Fire" and the prophesy itself that prince Rhaegar was into. His son, Jon Snow, obviously represents ice and the north.  

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8 minutes ago, Wolfgirly said:

Yes it's true that I've watched Game of Thrones all the way since the first episode and NOW started to read the books. I'm still on book two "A Clash of Kings". Thanks so much for the kind reply :)

:cheers:

8 minutes ago, Wolfgirly said:

You could be right about the faces being carved due to Azor Ahai. There's still so much about those trees that are a mystery though because they do something to Bran. I wonder if those trees are real trees at all and could be doorways.

That's a bingo. There is much doorway symbolism around the weirwoods, absolutely. I would say they are real trees, but not like other trees, There is something fundamentally different about them, it would seem. I think they might be meant to be seen as  half-dead or living dead trees. Wight trees instead of white trees. 

8 minutes ago, Wolfgirly said:

There is the mysterious other ends of the world such as the constant battle of nature in Old Valyria and the Faceless Men. Going back to the north, it strikes me that the Starks could be a remnant of werewolf (weirwood wolf) people. The Stark kids have dreams of being wolves. They're also much linked to the element of ice and snow, winter and cold. This makes me wonder about the title "Ice and Fire" and the prophesy itself that prince Rhaegar was into. His son, Jon Snow, obviously represents ice and the north.  

I do think the wargs are George's version of werewolves, and some have noticed the "weir" in weirwood could be read as were, making the weirwooods man-trees as werewolves are man-wolves. 

I look at Jon as an ice and fire synthesis, best expressed by the idea of frozen fire or black ice, and I believe that this line of symbolism includes Valyrian steel and dragonglass. Jon is like fire tempered by ice and frozen. He can still burn though, as dragonglass can. 

ASOS:

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King Stannis gazed off north again, his gold cloak streaming from his shoulders. "It may be that I am mistaken in you, Jon Snow. We both know the things that are said of bastards. You may lack your father's honor, or your brother's skill in arms. But you are the weapon the Lord has given me. I have found you here, as you found the cache of dragonglass beneath the Fist, and I mean to make use of you. Even Azor Ahai did not win his war alone. I killed a thousand wildlings, took another thousand captive, and scattered the rest, but we both know they will return. Melisandre has seen that in her fires. This Tormund Thunderfist is likely re-forming them even now, and planning some new assault. And the more we bleed each other, the weaker we shall all be when the real enemy falls upon us."

And then a bit later when Jon considers Stannis's offer:

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I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb. Val would want to keep her sister's son, but we could foster him at Winterfell, and Gilly's boy as well. Sam would never need to tell his lie. We'd find a place for Gilly too, and Sam could come visit her once a year or so. Mance's son and Craster's would grow up brothers, as I once did with Robb.

He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade. A hunger . . . he could feel it. It was food he needed, prey, a red deer that stank of fear or a great elk proud and defiant. He needed to kill and fill his belly with fresh meat and hot dark blood. His mouth began to water with the thought.

 

And when Jon is elected LC... his token is...

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The raven cocked its head and looked at Jon. "Corn?" it said hopefully. When it got neither corn nor answer, it quorked and muttered, "Kettle? Kettle? Kettle?"

The rest was arrowheads, a torrent of arrowheads, a flood of arrowheads, arrowheads enough to drown the last few stones and shells, and all the copper pennies too.

 

Jon dreams of a sword. Which one? His father's sword, a black sword named Ice. Black Ice. He dreams of wielding a burning red sword and defending the Wall, and in that dream, he is armored in black ice. Not sure if Jon is going to get Valyrian steel armor, but I think it's clear that black ice and frozen fire are important symbols for Jon. 

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2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Hi FFT -- great insights, as usual!  :)

Howland taking Lyanna's hand from Eddard can be read as Eddard as acting head of his family, therefore the symbolic father, giving away Lyanna's hand in marriage to Howland!  With this gesture, she is marrying a greenseer, or 'wedding the trees,' just like Bran following his own symbolic death.

The wedding symbolism occurred to me as well in my musings about whether Howland could be Jon's father.  But I didn't extend it to the idea of Lyanna being wedded to the trees.  I like that a lot.  

2 hours ago, LmL said:

That's cool FFR, I will brush up on the Daphne myth. That sounds like a good fit. 

As for Rhaegar, he might not drip with Hades symbols, but I would say that the Azor Ahai reborn archetype that he plays in to IS saturated with Hades. Ned shows it better, as @sweetsunray has demonstrated (you are familiar with her work on Hades and Persephone, right?)

Yes, her Hades Persephone thread got me to thinking about some of the other abduction myths out there.  (There is a great Sumerian that I think may have been the precursor to the Persephone myth, where a dragon is the actual abductor in the story).  But what really got me motivated was a recent visit to the Borghese gallery in Rome.  There were two really impressive statues by Bernini highlighted in adjacent rooms.  One was the rape of Proserpina (the Roman Persephone) and the other was the abduction of Daphne by Apollo, where the Daphne is shown mid-transformation into a tree.  I'm holding on to the idea that Howland could be our Hades character (if only his frog spear had two prongs instead of three).

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

@Frey family reunion

Rhaegar-Lyanna is a reversed Persephone myth. In aSoIaF, it's a prince from Mount Olympus (the living King's Landing), who steals a flower maiden from the underworld (the North). Lyanna is still a liminal character and thus very much a Persephone, since she belongs in both. But Rhaegar is not a ruler of the underworld. He is more like Orpheus (making Persephone-Lyanna weep with his music) trying to get his beloved from the underworld with his music, and a, underlying Paris-Helen abduction parallel that led to the Trojan war, with awarding the crown of love and beauty to Lyanna and then stealing her.

We do however have Ned taking Lyanna back North (her bones) and making her the queen of the crypts with her statue, and Robert resents Ned for doing that, thereby making Ned the Hades who takes Persephone to the underworld. 

Rhaegar playing for Howland and the Starks (amongst many others), resulting in Lyanna's dousing (baptizing) Benjen with the wine, does call to mind Orpheus' plea to Hades and Persephone.  And I do see the symbolism behind Eddard bringing Lyanna to the underworld.  I don't really think of Eddard as a good stand in for Hades, however.  Hades principal attribute is that he is the "Unseen One".  Which makes me think of a behind the scene manipulator.  Someone like Bloodraven for instance.  And hey, we really haven't seen what Howland is up to have we?  

And if you really want to go down the rabbit hole, in Dante's inferno the middle level of hell was a swampland, named after the river Styx.  And then we have a certain swampland positioned smack dab in the middle of Westeros.

The idea of the weirnet as a type of underworld is also intriguing.

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59 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Hey PK.  Considering the 'cold cosmic shit stream' is a joint collaboration of ours,

As do I :rolleyes:. And yup I putter around a bit, get a little lost but I eventually find my way. Sometimes I wait for others to catch up as well. ;) 

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

To your point, this is also the reason GRRM associates the red 'right handedness' which is governed by the more 'rational, analytic' left hemisphere of the brain with the hero 'pissing' (see below); whereas 'left handedness' which is associated with the allegedly more 'intuitive, emotional' right hemisphere is linked to more 'noble' deeds like slaying people en masse...leaving one wondering if there's really a difference between the honor of the 'sinister' (i.e.= 'left' in Latin) and infamy of the 'dexterous' (i.e.= 'right' in Latin)!

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jaime VIII

"As you learned from Ser Boros and Ser Meryn?"

That arrow hit too close to the mark. "I learned from the White Bull and Barristan the Bold," Jaime snapped. "I learned from Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, who could have slain all five of you with his left hand while he was taking with a piss with the right. I learned from Prince Lewyn of Dorne and Ser Oswell Whent and Ser Jonothor Darry, good men every one."

"Dead men, every one."

Rather than setting up these dichotomies, GRRM wishes us to see Arthur Dayne as he sees him -- ambidexterous -- symbolically, honor and infamy in one.  This relation is illustrated graphically by the mud flats -- a faeces analogy -- at the Quiet Isle, which with the tide turn up precious red gems together with pale corpses:

Exactly! Both hands are toilet paper. By the way that quote is related to Dolorous Edd's quote about gods and dogs pissing on him which George is also pointing out that dog is god backwards.

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"I'd not call it sleeping. The ground was hard, the rushes ill-smelling, and my brothers snore frightfully. Speak of bears if you will, none ever growled so fierce as Brown Bernarr. I was warm, though. Some dogs crawled atop me during the night. My cloak was almost dry when one of them pissed in it. Or perhaps it was Brown Bernarr. Have you noticed that the rain stopped the instant I had a roof above me? It will start again now that I'm back out. Gods and dogs alike delight to piss on me."

- Jon III, aCoK

 

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On 5/27/2017 at 9:57 AM, GloubieBoulga said:

Hi all ! 

I used to interprete the Brienne's dream like a "soft possession" by a greenseer (the tongue cut is the signal)

Congratulations @LmL ! 

I didn't have finished with reading all the stuff, but I was very interested by the chapter where Catelyn and Bran's wolf save Bran from the catspaw and all the connections. So I re-read it, and I found that the wolf wasn't at this moment a "silver smoke", but a "shadow" : it is a detail, but I think that GRRM refers explicitely with this word to the Others :  "silver smoke" is also in the same thematic, but not for the same acting : "shadow" is the killer, and "smoke" is for the "dissipation/dissolution", "silver" is associated with the moon, and for me, if the players are the same, the moment of the story isn't the same

 Before Others (and/or their creatures) appears, if the moon is visible, there is also always a wolf howl (without the moon, the "howling" is a babe's plaint, and I suspect that the "moon maid" lost her first child, as a bastard wolf lost the "moon maid").

The very interesting thing in Catelyn's chapter is that she can't support the wolves howling and want them dead, but, what the hell, why ?? Wolves are Stark's sigil and their 'identity', and she treats them like she did with Jon when he came to see Bran in his bedchamber. 

Then, Bran's wolf kills the catspaw and saves Bran and Cat : the wolf arrives like the "striking hand", the "weapon" of the greenseer = this could be a manner to express that the Others were once the "hand" of a greenseer. But I don't think that Catelyn could here represent the 3EC itself, but sure, she is the mother of a greenseer, and represent imo the ancient mother of the 3EC, who wasn't a greenseer herself but had the gift in her blood-lineage which was preferentialy linked to ravens (I suspect she was from the Blackwood family, without knowing if this lineage had the same name, and I hope we'll receive some answer, one day, concerning Raventree's weirwood... and the true origins of the quarrel between Bracken and Blackwood). 

In think @ravenous reader could finish for me the story I have in mind ^^ (clue : the first hadn't originaly the wolf's blood but stole it to a bastard)

The forums just ate my response to this. Sigh. This is getting pretty damn old. I really wish this forum worked, like at all. It kills me. I like the people here much better than on Reddit, and reddit's two day cycle isn't ideal for these giant essays...  but goddammit I do not know if I can handle one more lost response due to the fact that this forum crashes at least once a day. I mean, they updated this thing more than a year ago and it is worse than ever. 

I don't know of another good forum that has a wide slice of the fandom in it. Smaller forums with like 50 people aren't that fun. 

What to do? I wish this forum just worked. 

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13 hours ago, LmL said:

Yeah that was a clever one by George huh... plus the "ashes in your eyes" bit, that was a LOL. 

That's a sly parallel with Maeker... but you might be right. The black crown with fiery red gold is perfect - that's the implication of the black crown, that it can catch on fire like a coal or like dragonglass or maybe v steel. Sweet. I am going to break down that trial by seven in about 2 episodes to get all the Dunk / greenseer clues (gallows knight, horse named thunder, that tree / star sigil, etc) so maybe I can slip this one in there. :)

So, who's the winner out of all this? Are you saying Maekar because Baelor's death led to him and his line taking the throne? Or would Dunk be the winner because he lived and won the fight?

They both show signs of being the winner.  I am working on a write up on this, but is is slow going and I am having a hard time writing in such a way that more than the people on this thread, plus a couple more would understand half of it.  I think the archetype is two brothers fighting over a woman and a crown.  As always there is a possible third brother behind the scenes, and sometimes it seems alittle like the woman is a trickster.  Brightflame and Dunk are fighting over a woman, sorta.  Maekar and Baelor provide the brothers fighting over a crown, again sorta.  

Here, one of the losers is Aerion, and Dunk thinks about popping one of his eyes like a grape.  That sounds a lot like giving him an Odin makeover similiar to what Bittersteel does to Bloodraven at another one of these scenes, Redgrass Field.  There are all those rumors/songs that say Daemon started the war over Daenerys, so it can be thought of as him starting the war over a woman.  In that battle we have him getting into a duel and on the side there is a fight between Bittersteel and Bloodraven.  They have a running fued themselves over another woman and who should wear the crown.  The loser of the fight loses an eye and becomes a greenseer.  I said before that I think the loser of the fight may be the one who is your hand reaching up from the land of the dead for the moon, causing the hammer of the waters.  I am less sure of which brother it is (winner or loser), but I can sorta connect this to hammers, justice, and people who feel they have a right fo women and/or crowns.         

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8 minutes ago, Unchained said:

The loser of the fight loses an eye and becomes a greenseer.  I said before that I think the loser of the fight may be the one who is your hand reaching up from the land of the dead for the moon, causing the hammer of the waters.  I am less sure of which brother it is (winner or loser), but I can sorta connect this to hammers, justice, and people who feel they have a right fo women and/or crowns.         

The Prologue shows something else.  The 'stormy' greenseer  (Will) unleashes the hammer of the waters, killing his brother (Waymar) -- the loser of the duel who loses an eye and becomes a greenseer too -- the 'drowned' greenseer (wighted Waymar).  The latter then arises and throws the hammer right back -- let's call it a 'boomerang'!

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18 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

The Prologue shows something else.  The 'stormy' greenseer  (Will) unleashes the hammer of the waters, killing his brother (Waymar) -- the loser of the duel who loses an eye and becomes a greenseer too -- the 'drowned' greenseer (wighted Waymar).  The latter then arises and throws the hammer right back -- let's call it a 'boomerang'!

I will probably never start a topic again without talking about the prologue.  There is no woman there for them to be fighting over, but that cloak is refered to as his "crowning glory", so I use it as brothers fighting over a crown.  Will goes to claim it, the sword really, and gets justice done to him.    

 

I see the boomerang in several places.  Maekar kills his brother with a blunt weapon, then gets a rock dropped on his head at a place called Starpike (loyalists to Daemon, another one of these brothers who fight over a woman and crowns who Maekar also helped defeat).  Which one was the hammer of the waters?  Thats what I meant when I said I cannot tell whether is was the winner that did it to win or the loser that did it from the grave as revenge/justice.  I mean I guess we are told that there were two hammer events.  I don't know how that works, but maybe it is true in some way that will make sense later.     

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28 minutes ago, Unchained said:

I will probably never start a topic again without talking about the prologue.  

I am glad you are finally falling into line, Unchained -- for a while there, I was seriously worried about the havoc you were causing 'off the leash'!  ;)

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There is no woman there for them to be fighting over, but that cloak is refered to as his "crowning glory", so I use it as brothers fighting over a crown.  Will goes to claim it, the sword really, and gets justice done to him.    

The ersatz woman over there is the sentinel tree.  Brothers fight over three things: a woman, a crown, and a birthright more generally, which can also be a skinchanging host!

Indeed, after the duel is over, the craven 'blue falcon' gets down from the tree and goes over to claim the spoils of war, which are also the trappings of power/kingship (cloak and magical sword).  The sable cloak is another emblem of the purloined skinchanger host.  Had Will had had time, he would probably have snatched the cloak as well (Thoren Smallwood and Jaremy Rykker, as Crowfood pointed out).

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I see the boomerang in several places, but which one was the hammer of the waters?  

I don't know.  Will summoned the Others, but they had already been shadowing the Night's Watch brothers before they were summoned, which means the Others predate the hammer?  What's the relationship of the Doom to the Hammer?

The grey-green process of transformation appears to be cyclical, transmitted over generations (I don't know what started it, but perhaps @GloubieBoulga will eventually get around to finishing the story on her thread, so we can find out!  :))  Perhaps it's a paradoxical causal time loop without origin!  :P

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Thats what I meant when I said I cannot tell whether is was the winner or the loser that did it.

GRRM's overarching point -- or moral lesson (of which he has many, contrary to popular belief) -- is that there are no winners in the game of war/thrones.  So, asking 'who started it' in the interests of dispensing justice is counter-productive.

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 I mean I guess we are told that there were two hammer events. 

Yes, my dear, that is the 'mocking' and the 'counter-mocking', LOL!

(Now I sit back and eagerly await your counter-mocking, as only you can do...B))

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1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

I am glad you are finally falling into line, Unchained -- for a while there, I was seriously worried about the havoc you were causing 'off the leash'!

I am certain I have no idea what you are talking about.  I am very under control.  Its not my fault trolls emerge from under their bridges everytime I type the word Rumpel... nope not gonna say it.

 

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

I don't know.  Will summoned the Others, but they had already been shadowing the Night's Watch brothers before they were summoned, which means the Others predate the hammer?  What's the relationship of the Doom to the Hammer?

I lean toward the retaliation being the hammer, but just barely.  Stannis uses a shadow to kill Renly, then Renly comes back to get his revenge much less surgically.  However, there was all that blood running over the green when he was killed.  I really feel like it has to be both somehow.  I just cannot fathom what that means happens in real world events.  Why bring up the Doom?  I think it is a parallel to the hammer that was caused by a defeated and enslaved "no one" who spent his time underground getting revenge.  However, like @Blue Tiger points out, there may be a usurping dragonlord who played a role as well.  Maybe that is the solution.  Multiple people doing things for multiple reasons which when all happening at once, makes a mess of things and no one gets what they want.

 

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

GRRM's overarching point -- or moral lesson (of which he has many, contrary to popular belief) -- is that there are no winners in the game of war/thrones.  So, asking 'who started it' in the interests of dispensing justice is counter-productive.

Yea, I agree there is no original sin.  Every time you think you found one, it turns out that the offender was wronged in some way, even if it is very minor compared to what they did in response.  First you think the Lannisters killed Jon and "started it".  Then you find out that it was Littlefinger and Lysa, then you realize that LF feels like he was cheated out of his woman in a fight with Brandon and is just acting out what he thinks is the right way to live in this messed up world.  That is the fatal flaw in a lot of people in power in the story.  They think they need to find "justice".  Someone in the past thought the same.              

 

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

Yes, my dear, that is the 'mocking' and the 'counter-mocking', LOL!

 Are you saying that you think there were two events?  I guess they don't both have to be meteors, do they?  I don't think there were, except when I do.  

 

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7 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I don't really think of Eddard as a good stand in for Hades, however.  Hades principal attribute is that he is the "Unseen One".  Which makes me think of a behind the scene manipulator.  Someone like Bloodraven for instance.  And hey, we really haven't seen what Howland is up to have we?

Well, he was pretty much "unseen" for many years before aGoT :) Here is the essay for the evidence that Ned Stark has quite a lot in common with Hades, more than bringing Lyanna back North and making her Queen of the Crypts: https://sweeticeandfiresunray.com/2016/10/19/hades-the-warden-of-the-underworld/

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On Invalid Date at 1:38 AM, Unchained said:

Maybe he was just the most magical person to ever die in Westros, first dragon blooded or first combination of dragon and greenseeer blood.

That's very interesting! Maybe Rhaegar (based in some poorly translated ancient prophecy) was trying to recreate that when he "kidnapped" Lyanna?

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Another terrific essay, coupled with even better discussion on this forum. 

Not sure if @LmL thought of this example, but for the benefit of the participants on this topic, another juicy bit of sun figure penetrating a moon goddess / weirwood occurs when Tyrion visits Selhorys in ADWD.

First, the sun figure Tyrion spies the burning embers inside the always-listening weirwood, this time taking form of a brothel, which the nearly-drowned man enters as the night begins.

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Outside the square, the nightfire was still burning, but the priest was gone and the crowd was long dispersed. The glow of candles glimmered from the windows of the brothel. From inside came the sound of women’s laughter. “The night is still young,” said Tyrion. “Qavo may not have told us everything. And whores hear much and more from the men they service.”

“Do you need a woman so badly, Yollo?”

“A man grows weary of having no lovers but his fingers.” Selhorys may be where whores go. Tysha might be in there even now, with tears tattooed upon her cheek. “I almost drowned. A man needs a woman after that. Besides, I need to make sure my prick hasn’t turned to stone.”

Inside the brothel, a setting Sun awaits.

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“Do you have a girl who speaks the tongue of Westeros?” asked Tyrion. The proprietor squinted, uncomprehending, so he repeated the question in High Valyrian. This time the man seemed to grasp a word or three and replied in Volantene. “Sunset girl” was all the dwarf could get out of this answer. He took that to mean a girl from the Sunset Kingdoms.

The Venus of the Woods meets the son of a dead and rotting sun figure. She is not pleased to meet him.

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There was only one such in the house, and she was not Tysha. She had freckled cheeks and tight red curls upon her head, which gave promise of freckled breasts and red hair between her legs. “She’ll do,” said Tyrion, “and I’ll have a flagon too. Red wine with red flesh.” The whore was looking at his noseless face with revulsion in her eyes. “Do I offend you, sweetling? I am an offensive creature, as my father would be glad to tell you if he were not dead and rotting.”

She's a silent sister too, one who is about to be penetrated by a monster with both a red smile and hand. 

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Though she did look Westerosi, the girl spoke not a word of the Common Tongue. Perhaps she was captured by some slaver as a child. Her bedchamber was small, but there was a Myrish carpet on the floor and a mattress stuffed with feathers in place of straw. I have seen worse. “”Will you give me your name?” he asked, as he took a cup of wine from her. “No?” The wine was strong and sour and required no translation. “I supposed I shall settle for your cunt.” He wiped his mouth with the back of his hand. “Have you ever bedded a monster before? Now’s as good a time as any. Out of your clothes and onto your back, if it please you. Or not.”

Tyrion needs three tries before he succeeds.

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She looked at him uncomprehending, until he took the flagon from her hands and lifted her skirts up over her head. After that she understood what was required of her, though she did not prove the liveliest of partners. Tyrion had been so long without a woman that he spent himself inside her on the third thrust.

No, she's not a lively partner at all. One could say that she is, in fact, dead. 

As one does...

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This girl is as good as dead. I have just fucked a corpse. Even her eyes looked dead. She does not even have the strength to loathe me.

Tyrion's wine symbolically soaks into the ground, like a sacrifice in front of a weirwood.

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He needed wine. A lot of wine. He seized the flagon with both hands and raised it to his lips. The wine ran red. Down his throat, down his chin. It dripped from his beard and soaked the feather bed. In the candlelight it looked as dark as the wine that had poisoned Joffrey. When he was done he tossed the empty flagon aside and half-rolled and half-staggered to the floor, groping for a chamber pot. There was none to be found. His stomach heaved, and he found himself on his knees, retching on the carpet, that wonderful thick Myrish carpet, as comforting as lies.

And, at last, the moon goddess signals the consummation of the death ritual.

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The whore cried out in distress. They will blame her for this, he realized, ashamed. “Cut off my head and take it to King’s Landing,” Tyrion urged her. “My sister will make a lady of you, and no one will ever whip you again.” She did not understanding that either, so he shoved her legs apart, crawled between them, and took her once more. That much she could comprehend, at least.

And thus Tyrion begins his new story arc.

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2 hours ago, Darry Man said:

Another terrific essay, coupled with even better discussion on this forum. 

Not sure if @LmL thought of this example, but for the benefit of the participants on this topic, another juicy bit of sun figure penetrating a moon goddess / weirwood occurs when Tyrion visits Selhorys in ADWD.

First, the sun figure Tyrion spies the burning embers inside the always-listening weirwood, this time taking form of a brothel, which the nearly-drowned man enters as the night begins.

Inside the brothel, a setting Sun awaits.

The Venus of the Woods meets the son of a dead and rotting sun figure. She is not pleased to meet him.

She's a silent sister too, one who is about to be penetrated by a monster with both a red smile and hand. 

Tyrion needs three tries before he succeeds.

No, she's not a lively partner at all. One could say that she is, in fact, dead. 

As one does...

Tyrion's wine symbolically soaks into the ground, like a sacrifice in front of a weirwood.

And, at last, the moon goddess signals the consummation of the death ritual.

And thus Tyrion begins his new story arc.

Hi Darry Man!  :)  That's really great analysis.

The 'three tries' before consummation could possibly symbolise the three forgings of Lightbringer, seeing as Tyrion is the 'naughty greenseer' here!

I noticed that the 'sacrificed' woman in question has freckles, which ties into @Blue Tiger's mention upthread of the murder of Melara Hetherspoon, who also had freckles, at the hands of another solar leonine figure Cersei.  There are a number of these 'spotted' and 'freckled' figures, including Lyanna who appeared to Theon 'spattered with gore' making her symbolically freckled and hinting at either her symbolic or actual sacrifice at the hands of some solar figure.  The 'spots' or 'freckles' therefore signify blood.  @Feather Crystal also noticed this motif in her exploration of 'Spotted Sylva'.  Given that I'm not as familiar with that particular story as you are, could you elaborate please, Feather?  By the way, 'sylva' is etymologically a 'wood', making a spotted sylva a blood-spattered tree, therefore another iteration of the weirwood imagery we're finding everywhere!  

Regarding the circumstances surrounding Melara's death (note the 'Mel-' name, designating her as one of the 'Meliai' women), consider that like in the Prologue 3 people enter a wood; 1 flees (like Gared); 2 undergo death transformation -- firstly, Melara who is sacrificed to the tree/well and thereafter returns (wighted Waymar) to haunt Cersei, e.g. during her walk of shame; and secondly, Cersei who has been marked for death by her compact with the devil of prophecy ('it bites your prick off every time') and is a 'dead-woman walking' thereafter (Will).  Note that as the AA/naughty greenseer figure in this scenario, Cersei becomes 'red-handed' (a catspaw) by entering the tent and allowing Maggy to prick her finger (her cat's paw! ;)), drawing blood whereupon the Maege sucks, in return for offering a vision of the future -- a 'terrible knowledge' (think of the ominous implications of Bran's 'wedding' to the weirwood in comparison).  Maggy can be understood as the weirwood drinking AA's sacrificed blood, in addition to luring AA to additionally sacrifice a maiden Melara to the tree.  The spice-filled tent with the burning brazier within can be read as the hot 'front door' of the weirwood, while the well nearby is the cold 'back door' or black pool at its foot (the 'back door' is thus a kind of 'dead-end' destination, at least for Melara, given that on that fateful occasion she would never emerge from the wood -- at least not physically...).

P.S.  @LmL I think with Darry Man's post we have proved the 'door hypothesis' of the weirwood beyond a reasonable doubt -- well, at least 'front door' as vaginal symbolism!

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Once again, thanks for the fantastic essay @LmL:) 

So, I had several ideas during the course of reading the thread, but they kind of comingle so I'm just going to info dump/spitball, and I'll try to reference the person who inspired the thought, but I may get mixed up so sorry if I misquote/misreference/misinterpret people. :)

With that disclaimer:

@Pain killer Jane Blood is also associated with fire and water too:

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 Blood welled between the rings. It steamed in the cold, and the droplets seemed red as fire where they touched the snow. (AGOT, Prologue)

The castle [Winterfell] had been built over natural hot springs, and the scalding waters rushed through its walls and chambers like blood through a man's body,... (AGOT, Cat II)

[Hoster Tully on his deathbed] The skin was warm, blue veins branching like rivers beneath his pale translucent skin. (ACOK, Cat VII)

And blood is red rain multiple times too...

The blood as milk idea is intriguing from the sense that, symbolically, milk is associated with icy/snowy things a lot. So, blood is related to both ice and fire - is this why blood magic is so powerful and dangerous? It is the union of ice and fire, the abominable sword without a hilt?

Speaking of unions of fire and ice, there was mention of Val as potentially having a hand in Jon's resurrection. Her colouring is that of ice and fire as well.

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Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him.
 
They look as though they belong together. Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. Her breath was white as well … but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.
 
"Have you been trying to steal my wolf?" he asked her. (ADWD, Jon XI)

Here, we see Val dressed entirely in white, much like the Kingsguard and therefore, potentially, the Others. Note that her clothing is could be regarded as related to skinchanging: wool, leather, bearskin, weirwood - is this telling us that the Others are skinchangers too? If their origin is in the weirnet, I assume so. This connection would be reinforced with her blue eyes. Her hair (elsewhere described as a long golden braid) tells us that she is, in a sense, kissed by fire too: I go in to some detail elsewhere exploring the relationship between gold hair, fiery crowns, and how this indicates the acquisition of the fire of the gods. A long golden braid reminds me of the tale of Rapunzel (taken from wikipedia):

Spoiler

A lonely couple, who want a child, live next to a walled garden belonging to an evil witch named Dame Gothel. The wife, experiencing the cravings associated with the arrival of her long-awaited pregnancy, notices some rapunzel (or, in most translated-to-English versions of the story, rampion), growing in the garden and longs for it, desperate to the point of death. One night, her husband breaks into the garden to get some for her. She makes a salad out of it and greedily eats it. It tastes so good that she longs for more. [So stealing something from a more powerful being] So her husband goes to get some more for her. As he scales the wall to return home, Dame Gothel catches him and accuses him of theft. He begs for mercy, and she agrees to be lenient, and allows him to take all the rapunzel he wants, on condition that the baby be given to her when it's born. Desperate, he agrees. When his wife has a baby girl, Dame Gothel takes her to raise as her own and names her Rapunzel after the plant her mother craved. She grows up to be the most beautiful child in the world with long golden hair. [Note that Val is the loveliest sight Jon has seen for a while] When she turns twelve, Dame Gothel lockes her up inside a tower [the maiden in the celestial realm which also happesn to be the kingdom of leaves =>] in the middle of the woods, with neither stairs nor a door, and only one room and one window. When she visits her, she stands beneath the tower and calls out:

Rapunzel, Rapunzel, let down your hair, so that I may climb thy golden stair. [So Val's kissed-by-golden-fire braid is the staircase up into the celestial realm]

One day, a prince rides through the forest and hears Rapunzel singing from the tower. Entranced by her ethereal voice, he searches for her and discovers the tower, but is naturally unable to enter it. He returns often, listening to her beautiful singing, [I'm thinking AA-type being entranced by the power of those who sing the song of the earth] and one day sees Dame Gothel visit, and thus learns how to gain access to Rapunzel. When Dame Gothel leaves, he bids Rapunzel let her hair down. When she does so, he climbs up, makes her acquaintance, and eventually asks her to marry him. She agrees. [The prince climbs in to the celestial realm to wed the kissed-by-golden fire moon maid]

Together they plan a means of escape, wherein he will come each night (thus avoiding Dame Gothel who visits her by day), and bring Rapunzel a piece of silk, which she will gradually weave into a ladder. [Fire in ASOIAF is often equated to silk (think Drogo clad in wisps of orange silk; maidens dancing and whirling and spinning in silk dresses; fire like bright banners, banners being made of silk) so we may have a fiery ladder - think the firemage in Qarth who suddenly can climb a fiery ladder upon the birth of Dany's dragons - and that the fiery ladder is made with the intention of bringing the moon-maiden down to earth). Before the plan can come to fruition, however, she foolishly gives him away. In the first edition of Grimm's Fairy Tales, she innocently says that her dress is getting tight around her waist (indicating pregnancy) [the prince has impregnated the moon maiden as part of their marriage]; in the second edition, she asks Dame Gothel (in a moment of forgetfulness) why it is easier for her to draw up the prince than her. In anger, she cuts off Rapunzel's hair and casts her out into the wilderness [the moon maid is cast out of the celestial realm after a "sin"] to fend for herself.

When the prince calls that night, Dame Gothel lets the severed hair down to haul him up. To his horror, he finds himself staring at her instead of Rapunzel, who is nowhere to be found. When she tells him in a jealous rage that he will never see Rapunzel again, he leaps from the tower [and then the prince follows her] and lands on some thorns [the thorns of the rose-comet?], which blind him [Odin-style makeover].

For months, he wanders through the wastelands of the country and eventually comes to the wilderness where Rapunzel now lives with the twins she has given birth to, a boy and a girl. One day, as she sings, he hears her voice again, and they are reunited. When they fall into each other's arms, her tears immediately restore his sight [the bloody? tears of the moon maiden restore the sight of the prince who stole her (heart) and wedded/impregnated her].. He leads her and their twins to his kingdom, where they live happily ever after.

In some versions of the story, Rapunzel's hair magically grows back after the prince touches it. [The Odinesque/AA/impregnating prince gives the moon maiden her crown of fire back]

Another version of the story ends with the revelation that Dame Gothel had untied Rapunzel's hair after the prince leapt from the tower, and it slipped from her hands and landed far below, leaving her trapped in the tower. [An image of the weirnet holding back something evil, perhaps?]

However, Val is pretty heavily ice associated, in contrast to the blood/fire or Ghost's red/white colour pairing. And not her contrast to Ygg-ritte (can't believe I missed that pun for years):

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The outside air seemed even colder than before. Across the castle, he could see candlelight shining from the windows of the King's Tower. Val stood on the tower roof, gazing up at the Wall. Stannis kept her closely penned in rooms above his own, but he did allow her to walk the battlements for exercise. She looks lonely, Jon thought. Lonely, and lovely. Ygritte had been pretty in her own way, with her red hair kissed by fire, but it was her smile that made her face come alive. Val did not need to smile; she would have turned men's heads in any court in the wide world.

Val, the icy moon maiden, is penned up (like an animal - so skinchanging) in the celestial tower by Stannis, the Night's King (again with Rapunzel). Things described as lovely appear to have moon maiden/shy maiden symbolism: Margaery is "lovely as a dawn"; Cersei is "lovely to look at but cold" (note that she shares Val's gold hair/white skin colouring), Lysa is lovely as she marries Jon Arryn and thus becomes a kissed-by-fire moon maid sheathed in ice, Tyrion describes Tysha as lovely, Sansa is described as lovely twice, and the maidens and sorcerors in Drogo's pyre are "lovely, so lovely" and "the loveliest things [Dany] had ever seen"; music is a lovely thing for girls; and that's just AGOT.  So Val has the concomitant shy moon maid symbolism. But she does not need to smile - is this to do with her icy connotations? i.e. if the Others were the first in the wwnet and fiery AA pushed them out by carving faces (Yg(g)ritte's smile making her come alive), then the previous icy inhabitants did not need faces? or is it that the ice moon is still in the sky and thus has not had its face carved yet?

Speaking of Ygg-ritte's smile making her face come alive, is this part of the white tree/wight tree pun? This would fit with @sweetsunray's proposition that the solar figure (Rhaegar) was trying to rescue his beloved (Lyanna) from the underworld (weirnet) - because rescuing someone from the underworld would require a resurrection and thus a wighting, right? So what comes alive with music?

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As Daenerys Targaryen rose to her feet, her black hissed, pale smoke venting from its mouth and nostrils. The other two pulled away from her breasts and added their voices to the call, translucent wings unfolding and stirring the air, and for the first time in hundreds of years, the night came alive with the music of dragons. (AGOT, Dany X)

-

Beyond the doors was a great hall and a splendor of wizards. Some wore sumptuous robes of ermine, ruby velvet, and cloth of gold. Others fancied elaborate armor studded with gemstones, or tall pointed hats speckled with stars. There were women among them, dressed in gowns of surpassing loveliness. Shafts of sunlight slanted through windows of stained glass, and the air was alive with the most beautiful music she had ever heard. (Fake Undying Ones in the HotU; ACOK, Dany IV)

-

The nights were alive with howling of wolves, but they saw no people. (ASOS, Jaime III)

-

"It's all blizzards and bearskins up there, and the Starks know no music but the howling of wolves." (AGOT, Cat V)

-

And Grey Wind threw back his head and howled.

The sound seemed to go right through Catelyn Stark, and she found herself shivering. It was a terrible sound, a frightening sound, yet there was music in it too. For a second she felt something like pity for the Lannisters below. So this is what death sounds like, she thought. (AGOT, Cat X)

All moon meteor and therefore weirnet activation symbols, which fits with singing/horn blasts as the trigger for the comet steering. Note that the last of these, Grey Wind, heralds the attack on Jaime Lannister at the Whispering Wood. Jaime, with his kissed-by-golden-fire hair, is wearing his golden armour and wielding his golden sword, but is sheathed in his icy KG cloak - so we're seeing the ice and gold-fire symbols here. He is being painted silver i.e. whitewashed by the moon (thanks @Pain killer Jane for point that out to me on my other thread) and is attacked by Robb, the King of Winter, at the head of an army wielding lances of silver flame. There's probably a lot more there, but I'm too tired to think properly haha

Final thing for the pairing of milk/honey ice/fire symbolism, before I go to bed, is porridge.

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"My faith is all the nourishment I need."

"Faith is like porridge. Better with milk and honey." (AFFC, Jaime IV)

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 "Mela, fetch his lordship a new spoon. He wants to eat his porridge."

"I do not! Let my porridge fly!" This time Robert flung the bowl, porridge and honey and all. Petyr Baelish ducked aside nimbly, but Maester Colemon was not so quick. The wooden bowl caught him square in the chest, and its contents exploded upward over his face and shoulders. He yelped in a most unmaesterlike fashion, while Alayne turned to soothe the little lordling, but too late. The fit was on him. A pitcher of milk went flying as his hand caught it, flailing. When he tried to rise he knocked his chair backwards and fell on top of it. One foot caught Alayne in the belly, so hard it knocked the wind from her. (AFFC, Alayne I)

So faith is better with milk (ice) and honey (= gold = fire). Porridge is, of course, made from oats, and oats are often used for horse feed. So, milk (ice) and honey (fire) is used to flavour the (astral) horse feed and make faith better. And this astral horse feed goes flying - a la greenseers and meteors - and tries to take out a maester in the trunk of his body (trunk being an official medical term for the torso/chest). And what does Sansa get fed when her moon blood is on her?

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Cersei Lannister was breaking her fast when Sansa was ushered into her solar. "You may sit," the queen said graciously. "Are you hungry?" She gestured at the table. There was porridge, honey, milk, boiled eggs, and crisp fried fish. (ACOK, Sansa IV)

 

Sorry that all of the above isn't a little more coherent, but hopefully someone can make more of that mass of symbolism than I can.... :) night all :)

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