Pain killer Jane Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 20 hours ago, Archmaester_Aemma said: @Pain killer Jane Blood is also associated with fire and water too: Quote Blood welled between the rings. It steamed in the cold, and the droplets seemed red as fire where they touched the snow. (AGOT, Prologue) The castle [Winterfell] had been built over natural hot springs, and the scalding waters rushed through its walls and chambers like blood through a man's body,... (AGOT, Cat II) [Hoster Tully on his deathbed] The skin was warm, blue veins branching like rivers beneath his pale translucent skin. (ACOK, Cat VII) And blood is red rain multiple times too... The blood as milk idea is intriguing from the sense that, symbolically, milk is associated with icy/snowy things a lot. Yes absolutely blood is related to fire and ice. I have noticed that blood is several things and several colors as well. The blue veins in Hoster Tully's hands is literally pointing out the blue blood in the Others and making Hoster's veins blue and therefore his blood blue, is referencing the terms 'blue bloods' i.e., Nobility. I forget who it was but someone else pointed out that the fey/sidhe on who the Others are modeled are also named 'The Gentry' which is another term for the noble class. Also in terms of the blue of Hoster Tully's veins being blue rivers serves also to unite it with what @ravenous reader terms the 'bloody blue' with her theory on the green see/sea as being the same thing. The bloody blue is therefore a see/sea in which greenseers can also drown. Quote Other beasts were best left alone, the hunter had declared. Cats were vain and cruel, always ready to turn on you. Elk and deer were prey; wear their skins too long, and even the bravest man became a coward. Bears, boars, badgers, weasels … Haggon did not hold with such. "Some skins you never want to wear, boy. You won't like what you'd become." Birds were the worst, to hear him tell it. "Men were not meant to leave the earth. Spend too much time in the clouds and you never want to come back down again. I know skinchangers who've tried hawks, owls, ravens. Even in their own skins, they sit moony, staring up at the bloody blue." -Prologue, aDwD By the way there is a really nice image of Tyrion cutting into a piece of cheese (curdled milk) that has blue veins -it is the scene with Slynt in the Tower of the Hand- which is meant to tie to the blue veins in the marble of the Eyrie (Cat describes them as milk-white when Tyrion is being questioned at the Eyre) and Hoster Tully's blue veins also described by Cat in the quote you used. And yes I do agree that milk is associated with ice. We are actually told the association in the prologue but it isn't strictly in the sense of cold. It is a deceptive sort of warmth. Quote It burns, it does. Nothing burns like the cold. But only for a while. Then it gets inside you and starts to fill you up, and after a while you don't have the strength to fight it. It's easier just to sit down or go to sleep. They say you don't feel any pain toward the end. First you go weak and drowsy, and everything starts to fade, and then it's like sinking into a sea of warm milk. Peaceful, like." -Prologue, aGoT The Faith as porridge with milk and honey makes it deceptive. It is another line of symbolism that falls into the 'lies and arbor gold'. I would say that the honey as gold and fire is the Iron Pyrite, the Fool's Gold. There is also another part where Maester Pycell and Ned are speaking about Jon Arryn's death and he is served sugary milk. Quote "Lord Arryn's death was a great sadness for all of us, my lord," Grand Maester Pycelle said. "I would be more than happy to tell you what I can of the manner of his passing. Do be seated. Would you care for refreshments? Some dates, perhaps? I have some very fine persimmons as well. Wine no longer agrees with my digestion, I fear, but I can offer you a cup of iced milk, sweetened with honey. I find it most refreshing in this heat." [Arbor Gold is a wine and the iced sweet milk with honey is used here in its place with deception] -Ned V, aGoT ..................................... When the girl had taken her leave, Pycelle peered at Ned through pale, rheumy eyes. "Now where were we? Oh, yes. You asked about Lord Arryn …" "I did." Ned sipped politely at the iced milk. It was pleasantly cold, but oversweet to his taste. [The use of the word 'pleasant' here is akin to Garret's sea of warm milk.] -Ned V, aGoT ........................................................ "Was there nothing else? No final words?" "When I saw that all hope had fled, I gave the Hand the milk of the poppy, so he should not suffer. Just before he closed his eyes for the last time, he whispered something to the king and his lady wife, a blessing for his son. The seed is strong, he said. At the end, his speech was too slurred to comprehend. Death did not come until the next morning, but Lord Jon was at peace after that. He never spoke again." Ned took another swallow of milk, trying not to gag on the sweetness of it. "Did it seem to you that there was anything unnatural about Lord Arryn's death?" "Unnatural?" The aged maester's voice was thin as a whisper. "No, I could not say so. Sad, for a certainty. Yet in its own way, death is the most natural thing of all, Lord Eddard. Jon Arryn rests easy now, his burdens lifted at last." "This illness that took him," said Ned. "Had you ever seen its like before, in other men?" - Ned V, aGoT Milk is therefore serving as a whitewash as well as is honey. ETA: The reason why I pointed out that Jon Arryn's words were a blessing in relation to Ned almost gaging on the sweetness was because the use of the terminology of 'blessing' and milk is making the milk into not just a whitewash but an anointing oil. The anointing actions carries a lot of weight and can be used to hide all manner of evil. Several times knights are prefaced with the word 'anointed' and then shock is followed when that anointed knight has done something truly heinous. Also with the association of faith/religion and milk and honey. We get a direct reference to "The Promised Lands of Milk and Honey". Quote "I shall not see Oldtown again. I know that now." The old man tightened his grip on Sam's arm. "I will be with my brothers soon. Some were bound to me by vows and some by blood, but they were all my brothers. And my father . . . he never thought the throne would pass to him, and yet it did. He used to say that was his punishment for the blow that slew his brother. I pray he found the peace in death that he never knew in life. The septons sing of sweet surcease, of laying down our burdens and voyaging to a far sweet land where we may laugh and love and feast until the end of days . . . but what if there is no land of light and honey, only cold and dark and pain beyond the wall called death?" -Sam III, aFfC I don't know if you are familiar with the phrase "the land of milk and honey" but this is a direct reference to this. Here milk is substituted with light which makes the light cold, whitewashed and deceptive. There is also a quality of the sweetness of milk and that is related to Garet references to falling in sleep, which is Milk of the Poppy and Sweet Sleep, both of which can be considered poisonous in the right doses. There are several instances where milk is likened to poison: The Milk Snakes - one of the clans in the Vale of Arryn in the Mountains of the Moon. Bran confuses the pale roots to of the Weirwood in BR's cave with either milk snakes or grave worms. Quote The way the shadows shifted made it seem as if the walls were moving too. Bran saw great white snakes slithering in and out of the earth around him, and his heart thumped in fear. He wondered if they had blundered into a nest of milk snakes or giant grave worms, soft and pale and squishy. Grave worms have teeth. Hodor saw them too. "Hodor," he whimpered, reluctant to go on. But when the girl child stopped to let them catch her, the torchlight steadied, and Bran realized that the snakes were only white roots like the one he'd hit his head on. "It's weirwood roots," he said. "Remember the heart tree in the godswood, Hodor? The white tree with the red leaves? A tree can't hurt you." -Bran II, aDwD Milking Vipers - Arianne recalls that Oberyn show Tyene (the Sand Snake posing as a Septa) how to milk vipers. Basically spelling out that milk is venom and it is nicely paired with the Faith. Darkstar even says that he was weened on venom when it was again mention that Oberyn liked to milk vipers. Quote "My uncle brought me here, with Tyene and Sarella." The memory made Arianne smile. "He caught some vipers and showed Tyene the safest way to milk them for their venom. Sarella turned over rocks, brushed sand off the mosaics, and wanted to know everything there was to know about the people who had lived here." ................................................................................ "Watch where you set your feet," Drey cautioned. "It has been a while since Prince Oberyn milked the local vipers." "I was weaned on venom, Dalt. Any viper takes a bite of me will rue it." Ser Gerold vanished through a broken arch. - The Queenmaker, aFfC This brings up another meaning of milk; that of Milk, death and suckling Quote "Snow," the moon called down again, cackling. The white wolf padded along the man trail beneath the icy cliff. The taste of blood was on his tongue, and his ears rang to the song of the hundred cousins. Once they had been six, five whimpering blind in the snow beside their dead mother, sucking cool milk from her hard dead nipples whilst he crawled off alone. Four remained … and one the white wolf could no longer sense. "Snow," the moon insisted. -Jon I, aDwD Which this scene is also related to the dragons suckling on Dany at the end of aGoT. Check out what she says in aCoK Quote "Hatchlings," Ser Jorah said. "One swipe from an arakh would put an end to them, though Pono is more like to seize them for himself. Your dragon eggs were more precious than rubies. A living dragon is beyond price. In all the world, there are only three. Every man who sees them will want them, my queen." "They are mine," she said fiercely. They had been born from her faith and her need, given life by the deaths of her husband and unborn son and the maegi Mirri Maz Duur. Dany had walked into the flames as they came forth, and they had drunk milk from her swollen breasts. "No man will take them from me while I live." -Dany I, aCoK 20 hours ago, Archmaester_Aemma said: Her hair (elsewhere described as a long golden braid) tells us that she is, in a sense, kissed by fire too: I go in to some detail elsewhere exploring the relationship between gold hair, fiery crowns, and how this indicates the acquisition of the fire of the gods. A long golden braid reminds me of the tale of Rapunzel (taken from wikipedia): I agree that Val is a Night's Queen character. I usually interpret her to be an allusion to Sif, Thor's wife. Given that the AA/BSE/NK are Thor/Odin allusions, then why wouldn't the female counterpart be the counterparts of those gods as well. Sif is an earth goddess known for her golden hair and I read a while ago that she was an inspiration for Rapunzel as is Brunhilde, the Valkyrie. Her name has a root that means "to marry". 20 hours ago, Archmaester_Aemma said: icy KG cloak - so we're seeing the ice and gold-fire symbols here. He is being painted silver i.e. whitewashed by the moon (thanks @Pain killer Jane for point that out to me on my other thread) @ravenous reader pointed that out to me when we were chatting about the whitewashing of the heart trees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 19 hours ago, ravenous reader said: I noticed that the 'sacrificed' woman in question has freckles, which ties into @Blue Tiger's mention upthread of the murder of Melara Hetherspoon, who also had freckles, at the hands of another solar leonine figure Cersei. There are a number of these 'spotted' and 'freckled' figures, including Lyanna who appeared to Theon 'spattered with gore' making her symbolically freckled and hinting at either her symbolic or actual sacrifice at the hands of some solar figure. The 'spots' or 'freckles' therefore signify blood. @Feather Crystal also noticed this motif in her exploration of 'Spotted Sylva'. Given that I'm not as familiar with that particular story as you are, could you elaborate please, Feather? By the way, 'sylva' is etymologically a 'wood', making a spotted sylva a blood-spattered tree, therefore another iteration of the weirwood imagery we're finding everywhere! Hello everyone, and thank you Ravenous Reader for mentioning my observation regarding "spotting". It does seem to be connected to the "female target" in all the formulaic abduction loops, the ingredients of which all include: a group of people representing the abductors, a prince, a female target, a spotted "friend", a Kingsguard, someone is injured, and someone later dies. These are the bare bones, so to speak, but each loop has slight variations. Try inserting each female target into the loop's formula: Elia, Lyanna, Sansa, then Myrcella, and I think you will see what I'm talking about. Each female target is somehow connected to another female with spots. Elia's female with spots was Wenda the White Fawn. Myrcella's handmaiden, Rosamund, was painted with spots, as well as Arianne's friend was Spotted Sylva. Sansa's "Arrianne" was Cersei and Cersei's childhood friend was Melara. The question is, who was Lyanna's female companion with spots? Or was Lyanna herself the one with spots as in the apparition Theon saw? If you are "spotted" you could also be said to be the one hunted or looked for...the one targeted. What is the purpose of a fawn's spots? Camouflage, so as to not be seen in the forest. So the spotted "friends" served as camouflage for the intended target. Wenda the White Fawn served as Elia's camouflage. Rosamund was Myrcella's camouflage. Melara was Cersei's camouflage from Maggie's fortune. Sansa dyed her hair for camouflage, but Lyanna may have not had any camouflage, and thus was spotted/seen/spattered. I'll tell you the quote though that made me take a quick inhale... this one: A Storm of Swords - Jaime VIII "As you learned from Ser Boros and Ser Meryn?" That arrow hit too close to the mark. "I learned from the White Bull and Barristan the Bold," Jaime snapped. "I learned from Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, who could have slain all five of you with his left hand while he was taking with a piss with the right. I learned from Prince Lewyn of Dorne and Ser Oswell Whent and Ser Jonothor Darry, good men every one." "Dead men, every one." I had connected pissing with Arthur Dayne. In the Queenmaker chapter, another Arianne friend is Drey, aka Ser Andrey Dalt, brother and heir of Ser Deziel Dalt who is the Knight of Lemonwood. In his youth he experiemented sexually with both Arianne and Tyene. After the conspiracy to crown Myrcella is exposed and the living members arrested, he is eventually condemned to exile for three years in Norvos under Lady Mellario’s service. (sounds like Melara) Lady Mellario is the estranged wife of Prince Doran Martell. She returned to her home after a falling out with her husband about sending Quentyn to foster at Yronwood. Drey parallels Lem Lemoncloak since Drey is related to the Knight of Lemonwood. Drey lights a campfire, and once lit they all sat around the flames passing a skin of summerwine, all but Darkstar, who preferred to drink unsweetened lemonwater. Think of the ways “drink” has symbolically been used. We’ve seen trees, snows, and swords “drink” blood. Is it possible that piss, lemonwater, and spots all refer to blood? While I acknowledge that "drink" can refer to blood being shed, I think this is symbolic of a transformation. Drey, Lem Lemoncloak, and Arthur Dayne are connected with "piss" yellow. Dayne may have had a reputation for being the greatest knight that ever lived, and yet his white cloak is symbolically getting dirty...it's turning yellow. The color yellow can signify cowardice, and it could also imply someone is hiding, like Tansy accuses Lem: Lem, is that you? Still wearing that same ratty cloak, are you? I know why you never wash it, I do. You're afraid all the piss will wash out and we'll see you're really a knight o' the Kingguard!” Then we have Arianne's words to Darkstar: “How was your piss?” she asks. “The sands were duly grateful.” Dayne put a foot upon the head of a statue of the Maiden who’s likeness had been scoured away by the sands. “It occurred to me as I was pissing that this plan of yours may not yield you what you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darry Man Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 16 hours ago, ravenous reader said: I noticed that the 'sacrificed' woman in question has freckles, which ties into @Blue Tiger's mention upthread of the murder of Melara Hetherspoon, who also had freckles, at the hands of another solar leonine figure Cersei. There are a number of these 'spotted' and 'freckled' figures, including Lyanna who appeared to Theon 'spattered with gore' making her symbolically freckled and hinting at either her symbolic or actual sacrifice at the hands of some solar figure. The 'spots' or 'freckles' therefore signify blood. @Feather Crystal also noticed this motif in her exploration of 'Spotted Sylva'. Given that I'm not as familiar with that particular story as you are, could you elaborate please, Feather? By the way, 'sylva' is etymologically a 'wood', making a spotted sylva a blood-spattered tree, therefore another iteration of the weirwood imagery we're finding everywhere! Regarding the circumstances surrounding Melara's death (note the 'Mel-' name, designating her as one of the 'Meliai' women), consider that like in the Prologue 3 people enter a wood; 1 flees (like Gared); 2 undergo death transformation -- firstly, Melara who is sacrificed to the tree/well and thereafter returns (wighted Waymar) to haunt Cersei, e.g. during her walk of shame; and secondly, Cersei who has been marked for death by her compact with the devil of prophecy ('it bites your prick off every time') and is a 'dead-woman walking' thereafter (Will). Note that as the AA/naughty greenseer figure in this scenario, Cersei becomes 'red-handed' (a catspaw) by entering the tent and allowing Maggy to prick her finger (her cat's paw! ), drawing blood whereupon the Maege sucks, in return for offering a vision of the future -- a 'terrible knowledge' (think of the ominous implications of Bran's 'wedding' to the weirwood in comparison). Maggy can be understood as the weirwood drinking AA's sacrificed blood, in addition to luring AA to additionally sacrifice a maiden Melara to the tree. The spice-filled tent with the burning brazier within can be read as the hot 'front door' of the weirwood, while the well nearby is the cold 'back door' or black pool at its foot (the 'back door' is thus a kind of 'dead-end' destination, at least for Melara, given that on that fateful occasion she would never emerge from the wood -- at least not physically...). P.S. @LmL I think with Darry Man's post we have proved the 'door hypothesis' of the weirwood beyond a reasonable doubt -- well, at least 'front door' as vaginal symbolism! I definitely noticed the freckles there and elsewhere. Never thought about it as splatters of blood though. Interesting idea, and probably correct. I like the concept of three approaching a weirwood, with one relenting (in Selhorys, it's Halfmaester Haldon who decides not to carry on), one being sacrificed, and the one remaining as the Azor Ahai archetype. I'm going to start looking more for that motif, along with paying more attention for the potential black-pool back doors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted May 31, 2017 Author Share Posted May 31, 2017 On 5/27/2017 at 9:57 AM, GloubieBoulga said: Hi all ! I used to interprete the Brienne's dream like a "soft possession" by a greenseer (the tongue cut is the signal) Congratulations @LmL ! Hey Gloubie. I will try one more time to respond without being eaten by the dragon forum glitches! I'm feelin gnimble, here goes. On 5/27/2017 at 9:57 AM, GloubieBoulga said: I didn't have finished with reading all the stuff, but I was very interested by the chapter where Catelyn and Bran's wolf save Bran from the catspaw and all the connections. So I re-read it, and I found that the wolf wasn't at this moment a "silver smoke", but a "shadow" : it is a detail, but I think that GRRM refers explicitely with this word to the Others : "silver smoke" is also in the same thematic, but not for the same acting : "shadow" is the killer, and "smoke" is for the "dissipation/dissolution", "silver" is associated with the moon, and for me, if the players are the same, the moment of the story isn't the same Not necessarily to argue, but just to clarify: 1. The word shadow is not specific to the Others. The Others are often "white shadows" or "pale shadows," but Mel's shadowbabies are black shadows, as are the Night's Watch ("as black as shadow," "as if carved from shadow," etc). Drogon is called "The WInged Shadow" and likes to cover the sun and darken the world into shadow. I do not tend to associate the direwolves with the Others, though I could be persuaded otherwise perhaps. Certainly not in this scene though. 2. No, the silver smoke description of Summer is not in this scene, but elsewhere. However I don't think that matters. George uses the wolves to symbolize smoke consistently - "Grey Wind" implies it, and mirrors Valyrian steel as being described as "smoke dark." Summer is silver smoke, and swallows a sun character, while ghost mirrors the weirwood, which is symbolic of the rising ash (a twin to the rising smoke symbol). The main thing I am keying in on is the symbol of rising smoke and ash which appears following a lightbringer forging / setting a weirwood on fire / giving a ww a face event. The wolves and trees play this role, as Summer is in this scene. I know you have keyed in on some specific archetypal role plays, all of which I am not familiar with. If you are speaking of this scene in the context of one of those schemas, then please, by all means, fill me in so we aren't have two different conversations. In this essay I am presenting one consistent set of actions and players, and by the time you finish, you should be well familiar with the pattern I am seeing. Maybe then you can tell me how that lines up with what you are seeing, or doesn't. On 5/27/2017 at 9:57 AM, GloubieBoulga said: Before Others (and/or their creatures) appears, if the moon is visible, there is also always a wolf howl (without the moon, the "howling" is a babe's plaint, and I suspect that the "moon maid" lost her first child, as a bastard wolf lost the "moon maid"). Here you are referring to one of these schemas I was talking about regarding a bastard. You'll have to fill me in however for me to be able to comment. On 5/27/2017 at 9:57 AM, GloubieBoulga said: The very interesting thing in Catelyn's chapter is that she can't support the wolves howling and want them dead, but, what the hell, why ?? Wolves are Stark's sigil and their 'identity', and she treats them like she did with Jon when he came to see Bran in his bedchamber. Then, Bran's wolf kills the catspaw and saves Bran and Cat : the wolf arrives like the "striking hand", the "weapon" of the greenseer = this could be a manner to express that the Others were once the "hand" of a greenseer. I agree that the Others have an origin with the greenseers, and the rising smoke is like the fist of the first men symbol - the rising mushroom cloud that looks like a tree and a fist, that's the idea - but again I don't think that this mushroom cloud / smoke / ash tree symbol represents the Others... @ravenous reader, opinion? On 5/27/2017 at 9:57 AM, GloubieBoulga said: But I don't think that Catelyn could here represent the 3EC itself, but sure, she is the mother of a greenseer, and represent imo the ancient mother of the 3EC, who wasn't a greenseer herself but had the gift in her blood-lineage which was preferentialy linked to ravens (I suspect she was from the Blackwood family, without knowing if this lineage had the same name, and I hope we'll receive some answer, one day, concerning Raventree's weirwood... and the true origins of the quarrel between Bracken and Blackwood). In think @ravenous reader could finish for me the story I have in mind ^^ (clue : the first hadn't originaly the wolf's blood but stole it to a bastard) Do you think this proposed mother of the original greenseer - let's call her Clarissa Clarissa - might have been a cotf? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 31 minutes ago, LmL said: I agree that the Others have an origin with the greenseers, and the rising smoke is like the fist of the first men symbol - the rising mushroom cloud that looks like a tree and a fist, that's the idea - but again I don't think that this mushroom cloud / smoke / ash tree symbol represents the Others... @ravenous reader, opinion? I must side with @GloubieBoulga in this. I think the direwolves represent both the Hands of the greenseers, as well as the Others as a greenseer weapon, perhaps gone rogue. The mushroom cloud is the 'countermocking' response to having been mocked (wighted Waymar rising to avenge his death vs. his treacherous brother Will). In your own example, you described the two-step process split between two actors: firstly, Cat exploding and falling to earth (moon meteor ignition with weirwood on fire); followed by secondly, Summer the direwolf the rising Other. Summer slaps the stranger down, just as wighted Waymar swats Will. Quote A Game of Thrones - Bran IV Her voice had dropped very low, almost to a whisper, and Bran found himself leaning forward to listen. "Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds—" Quote A Game of Thrones - Prologue The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice. They fixed on the longsword trembling on high, watched the moonlight running cold along the metal. For a heartbeat he dared to hope. They emerged silently from the shadows, twins to the first. Three of them … four … five … Ser Waymar may have felt the cold that came with them, but he never saw them, never heard them. Will had to call out. It was his duty. And his death, if he did. He shivered, and hugged the tree, and kept the silence. The pale sword came shivering through the air. A Game of Thrones - Jon IV Samwell Tarly looked at him for a long moment, and his round face seemed to cave in on itself. He sat down on the frost-covered ground and began to cry, huge choking sobs that made his whole body shake. Jon Snow could only stand and watch. Like the snowfall on the barrowlands, it seemed the tears would never end. It was Ghost who knew what to do. Silent as shadow, the pale direwolf moved closer and began to lick the warm tears off Samwell Tarly's face. The fat boy cried out, startled … and somehow, in a heartbeat, his sobs turned to laughter. Here's another example of an 'Other' figure rising like an ash cloud: Quote A Clash of Kings - Bran II And then Osha exploded up out of the pool with a great splash, so sudden that even Summer leapt back, snarling. Hodor jumped away, wailing "Hodor, Hodor" in dismay until Bran patted his shoulder to soothe his fears. "How can you swim in there?" he asked Osha. "Isn't it cold?" "As a babe I suckled on icicles, boy. I like the cold." Osha swam to the rocks and rose dripping. She was naked, her skin bumpy with gooseprickles. Summer crept close and sniffed at her. "I wanted to touch the bottom." "I never knew there was a bottom." Have you read @GyantSpyder's mushroom thesis? I think the connections between mushrooms erupting and Others sprouting in the dark are implicit when put together with @Pain killer Jane's insight regarding blue-veined white cheese (produced by fungus) resembling the Others with their milkglass bones and blue blood, as well as the blue-veined marble of the Eyrie. Tyrion says Cersei has put him in the dark and fed him shit like a mushroom -- breeding Others via back door! Quote A Storm of Swords - Tyrion I "The Hound," said Bronn. "Not dead, only gone. The gold cloaks say he turned craven and you led a sortie in his place." Not one of my better notions. Tyrion could feel the scar tissue pull tight when he frowned. He waved Bronn toward a chair. "My sister has mistaken me for a mushroom. She keeps me in the dark and feeds me shit. Pod's a good lad, but the knot in his tongue is the size of Casterly Rock, and I don't trust half of what he tells me. I sent him to bring Ser Jacelyn and he came back and told me he's dead." 32 minutes ago, LmL said: Do you think this proposed mother of the original greenseer - let's call her Clarissa Clarissa - might have been a cotf? Clarissa Clarissa, LOL. Clarissa Blackwood! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted May 31, 2017 Author Share Posted May 31, 2017 On 5/29/2017 at 1:50 PM, Darry Man said: Another terrific essay, coupled with even better discussion on this forum. Not sure if @LmL thought of this example, but for the benefit of the participants on this topic, another juicy bit of sun figure penetrating a moon goddess / weirwood occurs when Tyrion visits Selhorys in ADWD. This please me greatly. Proceed, you have the mic. On 5/29/2017 at 1:50 PM, Darry Man said: First, the sun figure Tyrion spies the burning embers inside the always-listening weirwood, this time taking form of a brothel, which the nearly-drowned man enters as the night begins. One @ravenous reader has proposed that the weirwood caves have some kind of brothel symbolism. And actually, before they get to the brothel, there's a reference to the motley he's been wearing: Quote Haldon donned a hooded cloak, and Tyrion shed his homemade motley for something drab and grey. Griff allowed them each a purse of silver from Illyrio's chests. "To loosen tongues." Oh and there are green tigers guarding the river gate... and a prophecy scene with AA reborn talk... oh lord, then they go into an inn with a turtle shell sign, and "inside a hundred red candles burned like distant stars." They go inside, and see a serving girl pouring pale green wine. Jesus. Then they get info about Dany and her dragons, play cyvasse, then leave and go to the brothel. In terms of the entrance and exit, I'd say the inn is the entrance and the brothel the exit, or the in the fire moon (all those red stars ) and the brothel the ice moon. Both are 'inside the weirwood.' On 5/29/2017 at 1:50 PM, Darry Man said: Quote Outside the square, the nightfire was still burning, but the priest was gone and the crowd was long dispersed. The glow of candles glimmered from the windows of the brothel. From inside came the sound of women’s laughter. “The night is still young,” said Tyrion. “Qavo may not have told us everything. And whores hear much and more from the men they service.” “Do you need a woman so badly, Yollo?” “A man grows weary of having no lovers but his fingers.” Selhorys may be where whores go. Tysha might be in there even now, with tears tattooed upon her cheek. “I almost drowned. A man needs a woman after that. Besides, I need to make sure my prick hasn’t turned to stone.” Drowned in the green wine, drinking form the green fountain! I've heard some say that the bridge of dream is a weirwood symbol, based on the bridge aspect of a fishing weir and the dream implications. And that's where Tyrion actually drowned, so same idea as drinking from the green fountain. On 5/29/2017 at 1:50 PM, Darry Man said: Inside the brothel, a setting Sun awaits. Quote “Do you have a girl who speaks the tongue of Westeros?” asked Tyrion. The proprietor squinted, uncomprehending, so he repeated the question in High Valyrian. This time the man seemed to grasp a word or three and replied in Volantene. “Sunset girl” was all the dwarf could get out of this answer. He took that to mean a girl from the Sunset Kingdoms. The Venus of the Woods meets the son of a dead and rotting sun figure. She is not pleased to meet him. I like that, "sunset girl," nice catch On 5/29/2017 at 1:50 PM, Darry Man said: Quote There was only one such in the house, and she was not Tysha. She had freckled cheeks and tight red curls upon her head, which gave promise of freckled breasts and red hair between her legs. “She’ll do,” said Tyrion, “and I’ll have a flagon too. Red wine with red flesh.” The whore was looking at his noseless face with revulsion in her eyes. “Do I offend you, sweetling? I am an offensive creature, as my father would be glad to tell you if he were not dead and rotting.” She's a silent sister too, one who is about to be penetrated by a monster with both a red smile and hand. Bravo, bravo... On 5/29/2017 at 1:50 PM, Darry Man said: Quote Though she did look Westerosi, the girl spoke not a word of the Common Tongue. Perhaps she was captured by some slaver as a child. Her bedchamber was small, but there was a Myrish carpet on the floor and a mattress stuffed with feathers in place of straw. I have seen worse. “”Will you give me your name?” he asked, as he took a cup of wine from her. “No?” The wine was strong and sour and required no translation. “I supposed I shall settle for your cunt.” He wiped his mouth with the back of his hand. “Have you ever bedded a monster before? Now’s as good a time as any. Out of your clothes and onto your back, if it please you. Or not.” I've noticed the red wine in all these scenes is emphasized as being sour, and that works well to tie in to the sourleaf, the other primary source of a bloody mouth that isn't actual blood and is used to symbolize a bloody mouth. Call that the red smile symbol, I think that is the overarching idea. It also works to imply a bloody moon - a bloody crescent moon (like House Wynch), which is a cheshire cat smile. A bloody horror, if you will, like Masha Heddle. On 5/29/2017 at 1:50 PM, Darry Man said: Tyrion needs three tries before he succeeds. Quote She looked at him uncomprehending, until he took the flagon from her hands and lifted her skirts up over her head. After that she understood what was required of her, though she did not prove the liveliest of partners. Tyrion had been so long without a woman that he spent himself inside her on the third thrust. No, she's not a lively partner at all. One could say that she is, in fact, dead. As one does... Quote This girl is as good as dead. I have just fucked a corpse. Even her eyes looked dead. She does not even have the strength to loathe me. Tyrion's wine symbolically soaks into the ground, like a sacrifice in front of a weirwood. yep, again, bravo... On 5/29/2017 at 1:50 PM, Darry Man said: Quote He needed wine. A lot of wine. He seized the flagon with both hands and raised it to his lips. The wine ran red. Down his throat, down his chin. It dripped from his beard and soaked the feather bed. In the candlelight it looked as dark as the wine that had poisoned Joffrey. When he was done he tossed the empty flagon aside and half-rolled and half-staggered to the floor, groping for a chamber pot. There was none to be found. His stomach heaved, and he found himself on his knees, retching on the carpet, that wonderful thick Myrish carpet, as comforting as lies. Missed one there... On 5/29/2017 at 1:50 PM, Darry Man said: And, at last, the moon goddess signals the consummation of the death ritual. Quote The whore cried out in distress. They will blame her for this, he realized, ashamed. “Cut off my head and take it to King’s Landing,” Tyrion urged her. “My sister will make a lady of you, and no one will ever whip you again.” She did not understanding that either, so he shoved her legs apart, crawled between them, and took her once more. That much she could comprehend, at least. And thus Tyrion begins his new story arc. I wonder about the second sex act here... could this be an example of the 2-step Nissa Nissa process I speculated about, where she starts as a woman, is sacrificed tot he tree (the first one in), only to be wedded by AA a second time when AA goes into the tree after her? She paves the way, opens the door, becomes the door also. The lets AA in, something like that. The second sex act (putting it charitably) in this scene might be the wedding the tree, with the first act killing NN. What else could the two part sex act mean? Nice work here. Also, cutting off Tyrion's head is important. It ties into the Bran the Blessed symbolism. Basically it's just another way of describing a greenseer dying and going into the wwnet to become a "talking head." Like at the whispers... that's what the symbolism there suggests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 28 minutes ago, LmL said: Quote Quote she did not prove the liveliest of partners. Tyrion had been so long without a woman that he spent himself inside her on the third thrust. No, she's not a lively partner at all. One could say that she is, in fact, dead. As one does... Quote This girl is as good as dead. I have just fucked a corpse. Even her eyes looked dead. She does not even have the strength to loathe me. Tyrion's wine symbolically soaks into the ground, like a sacrifice in front of a weirwood. She was lively enough (I'd say 'revulsion' is a robust emotion) until he 'killed' her on the third thrust -- third forging of awesome weapon Lightbringer! (P.S. Does he really expect her to be 'lively' by the third thrust, honestly...) Quote yep, again, bravo... Quote Quote He needed wine. A lot of wine. He seized the flagon with both hands and raised it to his lips. The wine ran red. Down his throat, down his chin. It dripped from his beard and soaked the feather bed. In the candlelight it looked as dark as the wine that had poisoned Joffrey. When he was done he tossed the empty flagon aside and half-rolled and half-staggered to the floor, groping for a chamber pot. There was none to be found. His stomach heaved, and he found himself on his knees, retching on the carpet, that wonderful thick Myrish carpet, as comforting as lies. Missed one there... Quote And, at last, the moon goddess signals the consummation of the death ritual. Quote The whore cried out in distress. They will blame her for this, he realized, ashamed. “Cut off my head and take it to King’s Landing,” Tyrion urged her. “My sister will make a lady of you, and no one will ever whip you again.” She did not understanding that either, so he shoved her legs apart, crawled between them, and took her once more. That much she could comprehend, at least. And thus Tyrion begins his new story arc. I wonder about the second sex act here... could this be an example of the 2-step Nissa Nissa process I speculated about, where she starts as a woman, is sacrificed tot he tree (the first one in), only to be wedded by AA a second time when AA goes into the tree after her? She paves the way, opens the door, becomes the door also. The lets AA in, something like that. The second sex act (putting it charitably) in this scene might be the wedding the tree, with the first act killing NN. What else could the two part sex act mean? My Lord, do I need to explain everything to you?! Seriously, though, AA kills NN, gains his awesome power, then engages in a bit of necrophiliac necromancy (perhaps the 'second act' represents the moon meteor penetrating your so-called 'ice moon', thereby animating it so that the dead comes back to life, as evidenced by the uttered cry). I'm not too perturbed by the 'two part sex act', but more intrigued by him vomiting on the carpet having elicited the trademark Nissa Nissa cry (i.e. killing word)! How do you interpret that? Moon meteor shower saturating the planet and awakening the weirwood potential? Your posited scenario is also feasible. Quote Nice work here. Also, cutting off Tyrion's head is important. It ties into the Bran the Blessed symbolism. Basically it's just another way of describing a greenseer dying and going into the wwnet to become a "talking head." Like at the whispers... that's what the symbolism there suggests. Cutting off Tyrion's head? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted May 31, 2017 Author Share Posted May 31, 2017 22 minutes ago, ravenous reader said: 57 minutes ago, LmL said: I agree that the Others have an origin with the greenseers, and the rising smoke is like the fist of the first men symbol - the rising mushroom cloud that looks like a tree and a fist, that's the idea - but again I don't think that this mushroom cloud / smoke / ash tree symbol represents the Others... @ravenous reader, opinion? I must side with @GloubieBoulga in this. I will try to stay open minded, but first I must voice the problems with this. 22 minutes ago, ravenous reader said: I think the direwolves represent both the Hands of the greenseers, as well as the Others as a greenseer weapon, perhaps gone rogue. The mushroom cloud is the 'countermocking' response to having been mocked (wighted Waymar rising to avenge his death vs. his treacherous brother Will). In your own example, you described the two-step process split between two actors: firstly, Cat exploding and falling to earth (moon meteor ignition with weirwood on fire); followed by secondly, Summer the direwolf the rising Other. Summer slaps the stranger down, just as wighted Waymar swats Will. So, the proposal is that the same rising ash / smoke symbol which represents the burning tree maiden and the ash tree / weirwood can also symbolize the Others? That's what I am all like "yeah, I don't know about that..." and as for the direwolves, why are they ALWAYS described in fiery language? I mean, their howls chill the bone, yes, but the direwolves themselves have hot breath, fiery eyes, and full on dragon / black blood / hellhound symbolism in Theon's nightmare. Even the one wolf that has the right color and is also a white shadow - Ghost - is warm ("warmth calls to warmth, Jon Snow") and has burning eyes, eyes like red suns. I think it might be better to say the Others are like ice wolves, like opposites tot he wolves in the way the are opposite to the Night's Watch. I would see the wolves symbolically aligned with the NW, and with fire. Since they are always described with fiery language.... but I repeat myself. In the catspaw scene, Summer rises like the smoke that kills the sun, yes, but like the Others? Not really seeing that. Even wighted Waymar isn't symbolic of an Other - he's a symbol of the Night's King, I think, or we might say a transformed AA. His face shows a sky map, with his one blue eye representing the ice moon and the awakening of the Others, but I wouldn't equate him with the Others flat out. His blind eye represents the dead fire moon. I could see Waymar as the rising smoke / ash / weirwood figure, with his sky map face in the clouds showing what has happened to the two moons. But the Others already came in this scene, and they were playing the catspaw role, weren't they? 22 minutes ago, ravenous reader said: Quote A Game of Thrones - Bran IV Her voice had dropped very low, almost to a whisper, and Bran found himself leaning forward to listen. "Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds—" Right, they chase hot blood with icy, hound-like spiders. The direwolves HAVE hot blood and attack dead cold things. The last hero's "dog," now he might have been a direwolf. 22 minutes ago, ravenous reader said: Quote A Game of Thrones - Prologue The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice. They fixed on the longsword trembling on high, watched the moonlight running cold along the metal. For a heartbeat he dared to hope. They emerged silently from the shadows, twins to the first. Three of them … four … five … Ser Waymar may have felt the cold that came with them, but he never saw them, never heard them. Will had to call out. It was his duty. And his death, if he did. He shivered, and hugged the tree, and kept the silence. The pale sword came shivering through the air. What exactly are you meaning to highlight here? 22 minutes ago, ravenous reader said: Quote A Game of Thrones - Jon IV Samwell Tarly looked at him for a long moment, and his round face seemed to cave in on itself. He sat down on the frost-covered ground and began to cry, huge choking sobs that made his whole body shake. Jon Snow could only stand and watch. Like the snowfall on the barrowlands, it seemed the tears would never end. It was Ghost who knew what to do. Silent as shadow, the pale direwolf moved closer and began to lick the warm tears off Samwell Tarly's face. The fat boy cried out, startled … and somehow, in a heartbeat, his sobs turned to laughter. Again, Ghost is a pale shadow... but a hot one, like a hot Other almost. And how exactly does the symbolism work here if Ghost is an Other? Comforting Sam? I'm not sure how that makes sense. But Sam is a black moon meteor figure, as are all NW, and a horned lord type, so his being comforted by a weirwood makes a ton of sense. If anything, I think the fact that Ghost is a white shadow like the Others being like the cold shadows of the trees somehow. Ghost represents a weirwood, and the Others are, in some sense, shadows of the trees, or someone in the trees. 22 minutes ago, ravenous reader said: Here's another example of an 'Other' figure rising like an ash cloud: Quote A Clash of Kings - Bran II And then Osha exploded up out of the pool with a great splash, so sudden that even Summer leapt back, snarling. Hodor jumped away, wailing "Hodor, Hodor" in dismay until Bran patted his shoulder to soothe his fears. "How can you swim in there?" he asked Osha. "Isn't it cold?" "As a babe I suckled on icicles, boy. I like the cold." Osha swam to the rocks and rose dripping. She was naked, her skin bumpy with gooseprickles. Summer crept close and sniffed at her. "I wanted to touch the bottom." "I never knew there was a bottom." Why is Osha an Other figure exactly? I had not heard that idea. She's a fiery moon maiden being dippe din the black pool like so many other fire moon maidens before her, that's what I see. The fire moon meteors always drown in black water, and they come out frozen fire. That's why Osha has cold symbolism here... it's the same as Aeron Damphair or Daenerys going into cold water, coming out cold but with internal fire. Same as black Ice being dipped, bloody, into the WF pool. I don't think think this is talking about the others here, but rather frozen fire. However, I'm open to persuasion if you can show why she is an Other figure, apart form asserting that anyone coming out of the black pool is an Other, because I am not convinced that is right. I do not think the black pool is the back door, necessarily, though I could be wrong. 22 minutes ago, ravenous reader said: Have you read @GyantSpyder's mushroom thesis? I think the connections between mushrooms erupting and Others sprouting in the dark are implicit when put together with @Pain killer Jane's insight regarding blue-veined white cheese (produced by fungus) resembling the Others with their milkglass bones and blue blood, as well as the blue-veined marble of the Eyrie. Tyrion says Cersei has put him in the dark and fed him shit like a mushroom -- breeding Others via back door! No, I haven't read that, so link please And Tyrion... does he have Others symbolism I am not aware of? I always htink about him as a dragon man. 22 minutes ago, ravenous reader said: Quote A Storm of Swords - Tyrion I "The Hound," said Bronn. "Not dead, only gone. The gold cloaks say he turned craven and you led a sortie in his place." Not one of my better notions. Tyrion could feel the scar tissue pull tight when he frowned. He waved Bronn toward a chair. "My sister has mistaken me for a mushroom. She keeps me in the dark and feeds me shit. Pod's a good lad, but the knot in his tongue is the size of Casterly Rock, and I don't trust half of what he tells me. I sent him to bring Ser Jacelyn and he came back and told me he's dead." Again, great quote, but what makes Tyrion cold or Other like? Bloodraven has mushrooms growing from his cheek, no ice symbolism there... I think the mushrooms represent the weirwoods. If we see one with blue veins, then THAT mushroom is like a ice-covered weirwood, a cold symbol. But not all mushrooms, I don't think. But I will take a look. 22 minutes ago, ravenous reader said: 57 minutes ago, LmL said: Do you think this proposed mother of the original greenseer - let's call her Clarissa Clarissa - might have been a cotf? Clarissa Clarissa, LOL. Clarissa Blackwood! Why Blackwood? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted May 31, 2017 Author Share Posted May 31, 2017 3 minutes ago, ravenous reader said: Cutting off Tyrion's head? He tells her to cut off his head and bring it to Cersei... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted May 31, 2017 Author Share Posted May 31, 2017 On 5/29/2017 at 4:21 PM, Archmaester_Aemma said: Once again, thanks for the fantastic essay @LmL Thanks so much Aemma, I aim to please! On 5/29/2017 at 4:21 PM, Archmaester_Aemma said: So, I had several ideas during the course of reading the thread, but they kind of comingle so I'm just going to info dump/spitball, and I'll try to reference the person who inspired the thought, but I may get mixed up so sorry if I misquote/misreference/misinterpret people. With that disclaimer: @Pain killer Jane Blood is also associated with fire and water too: Quote Blood welled between the rings. It steamed in the cold, and the droplets seemed red as fire where they touched the snow. (AGOT, Prologue) The castle [Winterfell] had been built over natural hot springs, and the scalding waters rushed through its walls and chambers like blood through a man's body,... (AGOT, Cat II) [Hoster Tully on his deathbed] The skin was warm, blue veins branching like rivers beneath his pale translucent skin. (ACOK, Cat VII) And blood is red rain multiple times too... The blood as milk idea is intriguing from the sense that, symbolically, milk is associated with icy/snowy things a lot. So, blood is related to both ice and fire - is this why blood magic is so powerful and dangerous? It is the union of ice and fire, the abominable sword without a hilt? Speaking of unions of fire and ice, there was mention of Val as potentially having a hand in Jon's resurrection. Her colouring is that of ice and fire as well. Quote Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him. They look as though they belong together. Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. Her breath was white as well … but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely. "Have you been trying to steal my wolf?" he asked her. (ADWD, Jon XI) Here, we see Val dressed entirely in white, much like the Kingsguard and therefore, potentially, the Others. Note that her clothing is could be regarded as related to skinchanging: wool, leather, bearskin, weirwood - is this telling us that the Others are skinchangers too? If their origin is in the weirnet, I assume so. This connection would be reinforced with her blue eyes. Her hair (elsewhere described as a long golden braid) tells us that she is, in a sense, kissed by fire too: I go in to some detail elsewhere exploring the relationship between gold hair, fiery crowns, and how this indicates the acquisition of the fire of the gods. A long golden braid reminds me of the tale of Rapunzel (taken from wikipedia): Reveal hidden contents A lonely couple, who want a child, live next to a walled garden belonging to an evil witch named Dame Gothel. The wife, experiencing the cravings associated with the arrival of her long-awaited pregnancy, notices some rapunzel (or, in most translated-to-English versions of the story, rampion), growing in the garden and longs for it, desperate to the point of death. One night, her husband breaks into the garden to get some for her. She makes a salad out of it and greedily eats it. It tastes so good that she longs for more. [So stealing something from a more powerful being] So her husband goes to get some more for her. As he scales the wall to return home, Dame Gothel catches him and accuses him of theft. He begs for mercy, and she agrees to be lenient, and allows him to take all the rapunzel he wants, on condition that the baby be given to her when it's born. Desperate, he agrees. When his wife has a baby girl, Dame Gothel takes her to raise as her own and names her Rapunzel after the plant her mother craved. She grows up to be the most beautiful child in the world with long golden hair. [Note that Val is the loveliest sight Jon has seen for a while] When she turns twelve, Dame Gothel lockes her up inside a tower [the maiden in the celestial realm which also happesn to be the kingdom of leaves =>] in the middle of the woods, with neither stairs nor a door, and only one room and one window. When she visits her, she stands beneath the tower and calls out: Rapunzel, Rapunzel, let down your hair, so that I may climb thy golden stair. [So Val's kissed-by-golden-fire braid is the staircase up into the celestial realm] One day, a prince rides through the forest and hears Rapunzel singing from the tower. Entranced by her ethereal voice, he searches for her and discovers the tower, but is naturally unable to enter it. He returns often, listening to her beautiful singing, [I'm thinking AA-type being entranced by the power of those who sing the song of the earth] and one day sees Dame Gothel visit, and thus learns how to gain access to Rapunzel. When Dame Gothel leaves, he bids Rapunzel let her hair down. When she does so, he climbs up, makes her acquaintance, and eventually asks her to marry him. She agrees. [The prince climbs in to the celestial realm to wed the kissed-by-golden fire moon maid] Together they plan a means of escape, wherein he will come each night (thus avoiding Dame Gothel who visits her by day), and bring Rapunzel a piece of silk, which she will gradually weave into a ladder. [Fire in ASOIAF is often equated to silk (think Drogo clad in wisps of orange silk; maidens dancing and whirling and spinning in silk dresses; fire like bright banners, banners being made of silk) so we may have a fiery ladder - think the firemage in Qarth who suddenly can climb a fiery ladder upon the birth of Dany's dragons - and that the fiery ladder is made with the intention of bringing the moon-maiden down to earth). Before the plan can come to fruition, however, she foolishly gives him away. In the first edition of Grimm's Fairy Tales, she innocently says that her dress is getting tight around her waist (indicating pregnancy) [the prince has impregnated the moon maiden as part of their marriage]; in the second edition, she asks Dame Gothel (in a moment of forgetfulness) why it is easier for her to draw up the prince than her. In anger, she cuts off Rapunzel's hair and casts her out into the wilderness [the moon maid is cast out of the celestial realm after a "sin"] to fend for herself. When the prince calls that night, Dame Gothel lets the severed hair down to haul him up. To his horror, he finds himself staring at her instead of Rapunzel, who is nowhere to be found. When she tells him in a jealous rage that he will never see Rapunzel again, he leaps from the tower [and then the prince follows her] and lands on some thorns [the thorns of the rose-comet?], which blind him [Odin-style makeover]. For months, he wanders through the wastelands of the country and eventually comes to the wilderness where Rapunzel now lives with the twins she has given birth to, a boy and a girl. One day, as she sings, he hears her voice again, and they are reunited. When they fall into each other's arms, her tears immediately restore his sight [the bloody? tears of the moon maiden restore the sight of the prince who stole her (heart) and wedded/impregnated her].. He leads her and their twins to his kingdom, where they live happily ever after. In some versions of the story, Rapunzel's hair magically grows back after the prince touches it. [The Odinesque/AA/impregnating prince gives the moon maiden her crown of fire back] Another version of the story ends with the revelation that Dame Gothel had untied Rapunzel's hair after the prince leapt from the tower, and it slipped from her hands and landed far below, leaving her trapped in the tower. [An image of the weirnet holding back something evil, perhaps?] However, Val is pretty heavily ice associated, in contrast to the blood/fire or Ghost's red/white colour pairing. So... here's where I mention that George has thrown a monkey wrench in this whole thing with the "hands of gold are always cold" bit. Look how maddening it is... Gold is so easy to associate with the sun. The sun is the hottest thing around. But hands of gold are cold, so is gold the metal frozen fire? I don't know, but Garth Goldenhand could also be called Garth Coldhands, and that might be a thing. Did Coldhands used to be a goldenhand (a garth)? I say yes, so I think this is an intentional pun. But any time gold comes up as a symbol, we can't be so quick to equate it with fire because it might be a gold / cold thing. Take Val - her symbolism is primarily icy, and so perhaps her golden braid is a colden braid. As for the honey, it reminds me of the Meliai who fed their children the honey of the ash tree. Cold or hot or both, Val is a ww maiden surely, so that's how I'd interpret the honey symbolism. If possessing gold is = possessing the fire of the gods, perhaps frozen fire is again the key symbol to think about. The fire (the meteors) is hot and molten on the way down, but is tempered in sea or earth or ice and comes out frozen fire. Perhaps the metal gold, gold crowns, and golden hair represent the fire of the gods, frozen in place? I am not sure about this by any means, usually that line of symbolism is black (frozen fire, burned by the fire of the gods, etc). Then we have Rowan goldtree, who unites the rowan / ash tree symbolism with that of gold. So... ...gold is really confusing. Blame Martin, not me. On 5/29/2017 at 4:21 PM, Archmaester_Aemma said: And not her contrast to Ygg-ritte (can't believe I missed that pun for years): Yeah, same here, a couple people have pointed it out to me but I didn't catch it myself. I forgot to use it in the last episode too, that would have been smart. It was running long though so after a certain point i wasn't looking for things to add. It might be even better than that - Ygg - rite. Like, a ceremony with Ygg. The giving of a face to a tree. One of the reasons I didn't get into Ygritte is because her best scene is when Jon finds her dying, with an arrow between her breasts. It's the Pennytree symbol, the tree between two moons, a.k.a. the weirwood portal between moons. When I talk about all that I will cite Ygritte's death scene. This is also the symbol of the chestnut - RR found this I think - a tree-seed growing in a woman's chest is the same idea as pennytree between two hills. On 5/29/2017 at 4:21 PM, Archmaester_Aemma said: Quote The outside air seemed even colder than before. Across the castle, he could see candlelight shining from the windows of the King's Tower. Val stood on the tower roof, gazing up at the Wall. Stannis kept her closely penned in rooms above his own, but he did allow her to walk the battlements for exercise. She looks lonely, Jon thought. Lonely, and lovely. Ygritte had been pretty in her own way, with her red hair kissed by fire, but it was her smile that made her face come alive. Val did not need to smile; she would have turned men's heads in any court in the wide world. Val, the icy moon maiden, is penned up (like an animal - so skinchanging) in the celestial tower by Stannis, the Night's King (again with Rapunzel). Things described as lovely appear to have moon maiden/shy maiden symbolism: Margaery is "lovely as a dawn"; Cersei is "lovely to look at but cold" (note that she shares Val's gold hair/white skin colouring), Lysa is lovely as she marries Jon Arryn and thus becomes a kissed-by-fire moon maid sheathed in ice, Tyrion describes Tysha as lovely, Sansa is described as lovely twice, and the maidens and sorcerors in Drogo's pyre are "lovely, so lovely" and "the loveliest things [Dany] had ever seen"; music is a lovely thing for girls; and that's just AGOT. So Val has the concomitant shy moon maid symbolism. I'm not sure about this - usually I require for things to be more spelled out. If she isn't called shy, then I wouldn't tend to count her. And so far the shy maidens have all been fiery, so it makes sense Val is not one. She is something like a NQ to Stannis's NK here, I think. On 5/29/2017 at 4:21 PM, Archmaester_Aemma said: But she does not need to smile - is this to do with her icy connotations? i.e. if the Others were the first in the wwnet and fiery AA pushed them out by carving faces (Yg(g)ritte's smile making her come alive), then the previous icy inhabitants did not need faces? or is it that the ice moon is still in the sky and thus has not had its face carved yet? Yes, I think so, it makes a certain amount of sense. The ice moon is the one which has a date with destiny. There is also a line of "unsmiling" symbolism which we need to explore. But this bit about Ygritte's smile making her face come alive - that's awesome! That is another one I would have tried to wedge into this episode if I had caught it. On 5/29/2017 at 4:21 PM, Archmaester_Aemma said: Speaking of Ygg-ritte's smile making her face come alive, is this part of the white tree/wight tree pun? This would fit with @sweetsunray's proposition that the solar figure (Rhaegar) was trying to rescue his beloved (Lyanna) from the underworld (weirnet) - because rescuing someone from the underworld would require a resurrection and thus a wighting, right? So what comes alive with music? Quote As Daenerys Targaryen rose to her feet, her black hissed, pale smoke venting from its mouth and nostrils. The other two pulled away from her breasts and added their voices to the call, translucent wings unfolding and stirring the air, and for the first time in hundreds of years, the night came alive with the music of dragons. (AGOT, Dany X) - Beyond the doors was a great hall and a splendor of wizards. Some wore sumptuous robes of ermine, ruby velvet, and cloth of gold. Others fancied elaborate armor studded with gemstones, or tall pointed hats speckled with stars. There were women among them, dressed in gowns of surpassing loveliness. Shafts of sunlight slanted through windows of stained glass, and the air was alive with the most beautiful music she had ever heard. (Fake Undying Ones in the HotU; ACOK, Dany IV) - The nights were alive with howling of wolves, but they saw no people. (ASOS, Jaime III) - "It's all blizzards and bearskins up there, and the Starks know no music but the howling of wolves." (AGOT, Cat V) - And Grey Wind threw back his head and howled. The sound seemed to go right through Catelyn Stark, and she found herself shivering. It was a terrible sound, a frightening sound, yet there was music in it too. For a second she felt something like pity for the Lannisters below. So this is what death sounds like, she thought. (AGOT, Cat X) All moon meteor and therefore weirnet activation symbols, which fits with singing/horn blasts as the trigger for the comet steering. Note that the last of these, Grey Wind, heralds the attack on Jaime Lannister at the Whispering Wood. Jaime, with his kissed-by-golden-fire hair, is wearing his golden armour and wielding his golden sword, but is sheathed in his icy KG cloak - so we're seeing the ice and gold-fire symbols here. He is being painted silver i.e. whitewashed by the moon (thanks @Pain killer Jane for point that out to me on my other thread) and is attacked by Robb, the King of Winter, at the head of an army wielding lances of silver flame. There's probably a lot more there, but I'm too tired to think properly haha This is weird, because Jaime himself has the silvery blue flame swords in his dream of being in the bowels of the Rock. Overall this seems like this weird line of symbolism RR and I found wherein the golden solar figure turns into a white sun figure, which seems to overlap with the Others and the ice moon. We posited that the Karstark "Sun of Winter" (white sunburst on black) may be a white moon with a lunar halo, meaning that the ice moon is the sun of winter somehow. There is also this really cool white lion symbol from Africa, where the moon and it's halo is compared to the revered white lion which hunts at night. @ravenous reader could tell you more, but you get the idea. On 5/29/2017 at 4:21 PM, Archmaester_Aemma said: Final thing for the pairing of milk/honey ice/fire symbolism, before I go to bed, is porridge. Quote "My faith is all the nourishment I need." "Faith is like porridge. Better with milk and honey." (AFFC, Jaime IV) - "Mela, fetch his lordship a new spoon. He wants to eat his porridge." "I do not! Let my porridge fly!" This time Robert flung the bowl, porridge and honey and all. Petyr Baelish ducked aside nimbly, but Maester Colemon was not so quick. The wooden bowl caught him square in the chest, and its contents exploded upward over his face and shoulders. He yelped in a most unmaesterlike fashion, while Alayne turned to soothe the little lordling, but too late. The fit was on him. A pitcher of milk went flying as his hand caught it, flailing. When he tried to rise he knocked his chair backwards and fell on top of it. One foot caught Alayne in the belly, so hard it knocked the wind from her. (AFFC, Alayne I) So faith is better with milk (ice) and honey (= gold = fire). Porridge is, of course, made from oats, and oats are often used for horse feed. So, milk (ice) and honey (fire) is used to flavour the (astral) horse feed and make faith better. And this astral horse feed goes flying - a la greenseers and meteors - and tries to take out a maester in the trunk of his body (trunk being an official medical term for the torso/chest). And what does Sansa get fed when her moon blood is on her? Quote Cersei Lannister was breaking her fast when Sansa was ushered into her solar. "You may sit," the queen said graciously. "Are you hungry?" She gestured at the table. There was porridge, honey, milk, boiled eggs, and crisp fried fish. (ACOK, Sansa IV) Sorry that all of the above isn't a little more coherent, but hopefully someone can make more of that mass of symbolism than I can.... night all Again I wonder about the golden and honey being easily equated with fire. White and gold together... might mean cold things. I dunno, gold is so ambiguous. There is a pattern here though, for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GloubieBoulga Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 2 hours ago, LmL said: I think it might be better to say the Others are like ice wolves, like opposites tot he wolves in the way the are opposite to the Night's Watch. I would see the wolves symbolically aligned with the NW, and with fire. Since they are always described with fiery language.... but I repeat myself. In fact, the parallelism between Others and wolves is in their "use" : as @ravenous reader said, they are both weapons. No matter ice or fire, cold or warm, those are not opposite, because "the earth is one", and the ice can burn like fire (and obsidian is "frozen fire" in valyrian language). For me, the difference between ice and fire describes two different states of the same thing, or it can also be a false and a true thing : if you prefer, the shadow is the imitation of the real living; or, it is also the "essence" but not "incorporate", not solid. That's why a real shadow is cold (Melisandre's black shadows are cold too) = Stannis can be in the same time innocent and guilty from the death of his brother Renly So wolves are not Others, but the parallelism could show that they tell a part of the same story = a "wolf" (or most probably the "shadow of a wolf" = a "false wolf") was used as a weapon to kill someone I wasn't thinking to a particular narrative schema, but I'm actually working about the Others and the context of their appearance, and the link with the greenseers is made with some elements (there is always at least one of them) : the wind (this one is a constant one), whisperings in the trees (consequence of the wind), and the whisper of the leaves (consequence too). Because in the prologue, the howl of a wolf and the moon precedes the appearance of the Others, I was waiting for other howls and moon before their other appearances, but that's not the case : at the Fist, and during Sam's chapter, it's the plaint of a baby. BUT... before the fist, the Watch stopped at Craster's hall, where there was the "maiden" pregnant Gilly, and the affair with Craster giving his male children to the "cold gods", in the woods. Sam himself, during his chapter where he kills the Other, is no more a "moon face", but a baby who can't walk. So Small Paul carries him as if he was the mother (a bear mother, he is so hairy and had an axe like the bear mothers Mormont ^^ !), plus he sacrifices himself : Quote The wights had been slow clumsy things, but the Other was light as snow on the wind. It slid away from Paul's axe, armor rippling, and its crystal sword twisted and spun and slipped between the iron rings of Paul's mail, through leather and wool and bone and flesh. It came out his back with a hissssssssssss and Sam heard Paul say, "Oh," as he lost the axe. Impaled, his blood smoking around the sword, the big man tried to reach his killer with his hands and almost had before he fell. The weight of him tore the strange pale sword from the Other's grip. (Sam I ASOS) "mother Small Paul" receives in her the sword of the other (like a Nissa-Nissa), so "child Sam" has "time" to take courage and avenge his mother. After that, Sam can walk, like a child who is learning to walk and is no more a baby. To resume, at the Fist and after, there are no moons and no wolves (Jon leaves long before the attack), but there are dead bears and babies. I'm still working, so I can't say yet if all is telling different stories, or different parts of the same, or different stories, but it seems to me that there are 2 different "woman paradigm" : a mother(who was a maiden before being a mother) and a maiden(who became a mother), and probably both were loved by the same greenseer. Perhaps, in terms of icy/fiery, one was a fiery maiden and icy mother, and the other the reverse (icy maiden becoming fiery mother) Clarissa Clarissa ! I don't know if the mother of the "first (stark) greenseer" was a children of the forest, I didn't study the point ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Ice-Eyes Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 12 hours ago, LmL said: Gold is so easy to associate with the sun. The sun is the hottest thing around. But hands of gold are cold, so is gold the metal frozen fire? I don't know, but Garth Goldenhand could also be called Garth Coldhands, and that might be a thing. Did Coldhands used to be a goldenhand (a garth)? I say yes, so I think this is an intentional pun. But any time gold comes up as a symbol, we can't be so quick to equate it with fire because it might be a gold / cold thing. I love this. I am seeing a link between gold and black. Like black is pretty clearly what happens when gold gets afflicted and takes on death properties. Goldhands => Coldhands indeed! Colours have pairs. 'Flashing colours,' the occultists and Indian mystics call them. They are two sides of the same coin, and share properties and symbolism quite precisely. If yiu stare hard at one and then close your eyes, you see the afterimage in the other colour. Fire: red-green Air: Yellow-purple Water: Blue-orange Earth: it's complicated, but black is in there. This is just one framework, but it's definitely a thing if you read Starhawk and other Wiccan-influenced stuff. JRR Tolkien has some of this at work in his writing, so you will see its influence. NOT by any means that The George is following it! I think he is, but only partially. So far, the only pair I can easily identify is the fire pair. And, I think he's picked one to be the pure version and one to be the afflicted version. Green is afflicted fire, while red is its positive aspects. I suspect we can find more of these dualities. Let me add my two cents. I propose that we add white-black. This is the night time stuff, the death-associated combo. I don't have the complete picture yet, but it is apparent that black is the colour of dead fire. Obsidian, Night's Watch brothers, burnt cinders. The height of fire's 'life cycle' is gold. That's the perfected stage, the solar stage. Partly what we're looking at is more seasonal: green-red-gold-black... Back to work. More to think about here! But spot on with the gold-black association! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darry Man Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 14 hours ago, LmL said: Missed one there... I can understand how I missed most of that esoterica that you kindly pointed out, but not the "half-staggered" reference. I feel shamed! But I do appreciate you capturing some of the references earlier in the chapter. I agree especially that the Bridge of Dreams is a symbolic door to the weirwood. I think I realized this after one of your earlier Weirwood Compendium essays (unless you had mentioned it explicitly). Anyway, as I was re-reading the Selhorys brothel piece, I wondered about the second sex act. Is the first the symbolic murder of the moon goddess and the second a symbolic conception or rebirth of AA as Last Hero in the weirwood? Is that where the "agony" / "ecstasy" motifs play out? It jibes with the two-doors hypothesis. I was also wondering if the name of the city -- Selhorys -- has anything to do with the Egyptian deity Horus (Set + Horus = Selhorys?). There are a few parallels between the journey on the Rhoyne and the Osiris myth, such as a flooded city on a river, a murdered father who had descended from the sun god, a drowned god, a son journeying through the underworld, copulation, and rebirth or resurrection. Tyrion killing Tywin with a bolt through the groin also brings to mind Osiris's dismembered phallus. The myth even includes a tree bearing the essence of the murdered father-god figure. The Rhoyne also acts as a Planetos version of the Nile. In both cases, you have an extremely long and venerable river, featuring a few cities within a vast expanse of relatively empty land, remnants of a fallen empire, before flowing to the sea through a large, diverse metropolis on a massive delta system. GRRM seems to place an older, more eastern mysticism within Essos to contrast the Germanic/Celtic themes more prominent in Westeros, so this relationship seems plausible. Need to work on it more, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 8 hours ago, Darry Man said: I was also wondering if the name of the city -- Selhorys -- has anything to do with the Egyptian deity Horus (Set + Horus = Selhorys?). Always thought it was Selhorys was Sell-Whores. Similar to how Qohor is Co-Whore and Qoherys is Co-heiress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted June 1, 2017 Author Share Posted June 1, 2017 10 hours ago, Jon Ice-Eyes said: I love this. I am seeing a link between gold and black. Like black is pretty clearly what happens when gold gets afflicted and takes on death properties. Goldhands => Coldhands indeed! Colours have pairs. 'Flashing colours,' the occultists and Indian mystics call them. They are two sides of the same coin, and share properties and symbolism quite precisely. If yiu stare hard at one and then close your eyes, you see the afterimage in the other colour. Fire: red-green Air: Yellow-purple Water: Blue-orange Earth: it's complicated, but black is in there. This is just one framework, but it's definitely a thing if you read Starhawk and other Wiccan-influenced stuff. JRR Tolkien has some of this at work in his writing, so you will see its influence. NOT by any means that The George is following it! I think he is, but only partially. So far, the only pair I can easily identify is the fire pair. And, I think he's picked one to be the pure version and one to be the afflicted version. Green is afflicted fire, while red is its positive aspects. I suspect we can find more of these dualities. Let me add my two cents. I propose that we add white-black. This is the night time stuff, the death-associated combo. I don't have the complete picture yet, but it is apparent that black is the colour of dead fire. Obsidian, Night's Watch brothers, burnt cinders. The height of fire's 'life cycle' is gold. That's the perfected stage, the solar stage. Partly what we're looking at is more seasonal: green-red-gold-black... Back to work. More to think about here! But spot on with the gold-black association! I agree with most of your seasonal analysis here, and maybe the key to understanding the symbolism of gold the metal lies in this phrase: "beneath the gold, the bitter steel." George hates anything to perfect or pretty - he kills every hunky "High School Quarterback" type character like Robb or Theon or Renly or Joffrey. The cocky, alpha types. Brandon Stark. Anyway, it makes sense for him to use gold the same way he uses sweets or perfumes, as indicative of treachery, corruption, falseness. As sweet as lies, that sort of thing. In this way it makes sense for cold gold metal to by synergistic with black metal. Still, it's not quite the same thing. The gold crown signifies a bright sun, while the black crown the dark sun. The dark sun is the shadow of the bright sun, just as you speak of with your talk of color opposites, so they are one in the same in a certain sense. Recall also all the talk of crowning someone (like Myrcella) being tantamount to killing someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luddagain Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 LML I have now read your green sears posts (or most of it) nd while I think it is very good i have quite a few reservations about just how far you can stretch the symbolism. Some od my quibbles are these: 1. First GRRM himslef - he is as we know a nerd who likes sci fi and studies the Nordic legends. I think we should asume that if in doubt about symbols it will be the Nordic ones that are relevant and to an extent the Celtic ones 2. The story is mostly about the British Isles and we should interpret (at least in the first three books) most symbolosm with that in mind and avoid too much overflow from other cultures 3. GRRM just does NOT seem to me to be a moon goddess sort of writer. He is swords and beheadings and rough sex ( a very male sort of writer) and mood goddess stuff is very female in style and thought patterns. I think GRRM does not do female characters nearly as well as male ones. A lot are a bit stereotypical. So while he does have moon goddess symbolism I would be cautious about stretching it too far. 5. GRRM did academic study of norse myths and I would bet my bottom dollar that any such course would have poured scorn on the various "wicca" ideas of neopaganism. My guess is that if it is not backed up with very good historical evidence then GRRM will have been careful not to accept it and use it. Mind you I did just notice that the term Gardner is used for the guys in the Reach and this was the name of the first high priest of Wicca so Hmmmmm! 6. I think that you are equating and confounding different mythologies and this leads to some confusion. For example while the horned god or to be precise gods associated with Rams and Bull and Stags and goats do appear in European mythology, their existence in Britain is less clear. I am careful about equating anything to do with Robert and the other Stag lords with horned lord mythology. As a war hammer wielding guy from the Stormlands with a bushy beard and of huge size, Robert is very much a Thor figure and his battles with Dragons rather akin to fighting the giant serpent. However I am not convinced via any evidence that Thor is the horned god. 7. The story of Herne the Hunter is relevant of course. 8. The green man stuff seems to me to be a bit of a GRRM add on and much more relevant to his later books than the first three. I am rereading and I may be wrong. However obviously GRRM has included the concept in his tale and Green men ideas are everywhere now. 9. The dying god stuff has been there from the beginning and is flagged early with Bran's wolf called Summer. Since bran hangs about with a character called Hodr and really named Walder (Baldur) and someone called Nan, I think we can pretty bloody obviously link Bran the the renewal of summer and the rebirth following a death of the corn god and of course to the tale of Baldur and Hoder. 10. I am inclined to the Jon Barleycorn idea. However I am not sure that Robb or even Ned were ever Kings of Winter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 @LmL So I was re reading the Varamyr prologue and something struck me. (Pun intended) Quote Whenever he desired a woman he sent his shadowcat to stalk her, and whatever girl he'd cast his eye upon would follow meekly to his bed. Some came weeping, aye, but still they came. Varamyr gave them his seed, took a hank of their hair to remember them by, and sent them back. From time to time, some village hero would come with spear in hand to slay the beastling and save a sister or a lover or a daughter. Those he killed, but he never harmed the women. Some he even blessed with children. Varamyr here casts his eye via his shadowcat, thus using a cat's eye on women he has tried making into weirwood via rape. And since eyes can be sharp like daggers or swords, then cat's eyes are catspaw daggers. Quote "Lord Eddard, yes, he had that reputation, but they named him traitor and took his head off even so." The old woman's eyes bore into her, sharp and bright as the points of swords. -Sansa I, aSoS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluetiger Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 44 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said: @LmL So I was re reading the Varamyr prologue and something struck me. (Pun intended) Varamyr here casts his eye via his shadowcat, thus using a cat's eye on women he has tried making into weirwood via rape. And since eyes can be sharp like daggers or swords, then cat's eyes are catspaw daggers. And one of Varamyr's wolves is one-eyed, making the Odin-Naughty Greenseer Azor Ahai connection even stronger. BTW, Varamyr might be named after Norse goddess Var. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 4 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said: And one of Varamyr's wolves is one-eyed, making the Odin-Naughty Greenseer Azor Ahai connection even stronger. BTW, Varamyr might be named after Norse goddess Var. And One-Eyed is the wolf he goes on to live his second life. He could be named after her. She is the goddess of Oaths and since we have a sword with Red Ruby cat's eyes named Oathkeeper, it fits but as an inverse. Since he is the type to break oaths and taboos. Quote The woman in grey hissed through her fingers. Her eyes were two red pits burning in the shadows. She spoke again. "No, she says. Call it Oathbreaker, she says. It was made for treachery and murder. She names it False Friend. Like you." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 3 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said: So I was re reading the Varamyr prologue and something struck me. (Pun intended) He he... Quote Quote Whenever he desired a woman he sent his shadowcat to stalk her, and whatever girl he'd cast his eye upon would follow meekly to his bed. Some came weeping, aye, but still they came. Varamyr gave them his seed, took a hank of their hair to remember them by, and sent them back. From time to time, some village hero would come with spear in hand to slay the beastling and save a sister or a lover or a daughter. Those he killed, but he never harmed the women. Some he even blessed with children. Varamyr here casts his eye via his shadowcat, thus using a cat's eye on women he has tried making into weirwood via rape. Fantastic catch! The idea of 'casting an eye' also evokes the idea of 'casting a net' to entrap someone (in a 'garth trap') as well as your idea of the gambler AA 'casting the dice' -- the sacrifice of the 'lucky' red-headed woman you've been alluding to is of central importance in the drama. ETA: [the saving of the 'hanks of hair' is eerily reminiscent of a serial killer's trophies, hinting that Varamyr may be disingenuous when he claims he does not harm the women, and 'only rapes' them] It reminds me of the Ljothatal charms from the Havamal, highlighted by @Unchained, particularly this one: Quote I know a sixteenth: – if I say that spell – any girl soon grants my desires; – I win the heart – of the white-armed maiden, – turn her thoughts where I will. Quote And since eyes can be sharp like daggers or swords, then cat's eyes are catspaw daggers. Nice. There are those idioms 'looking daggers at someone' and 'if looks could kill...,' etc., which all tie in to the concept of 'giving someone the evil eye'...'Third eye' as 'evil eye'? (What's the relation between the 'killing eye' and the 'killing word'?!) Quote Wikipedia: Classical authors attempted to offer explanations for the evil eye. Plutarch's scientific explanation stated that the eyes were the chief, if not sole, source of the deadly rays that were supposed to spring up like poisoned darts from the inner recesses of a person possessing the evil eye (Quaest. Conv. 5.7.2–3=Mor.80F-81f). Plutarch treated the phenomenon of the evil eye as something seemingly inexplicable that is a source of wonder and cause of incredulity. The belief in the evil eye during antiquity varied across different regions and periods. The evil eye was not feared with equal intensity in every corner of the Roman Empire. There were places in which people felt more conscious of the danger of the evil eye. In Roman times, not only were individuals considered to possess the power of the evil eye but whole tribes, especially those of Pontus and Scythia, were believed to be transmitters of the evil eye. The phallic charm called fascinum in Latin, from the verb fascinare, "to cast a spell" (the origin of the English word "fascinate"), was used against the evil eye. The spreading in the belief of the evil eye across the Near East is believed by some to have been propagated by the Empire of Alexander the Great, which spread this and other Greek ideas across his empire.[citation needed] Talking of 'cat's eyes,' do you think there's some symbolic significance to the 'tiger's eye' gemstone which is included in a list of other gemstones, many of them associated with the 'gemstone emperors' of the GEOTD? The tiger's eye is affiliated with the finger (hence meddling agency) of a 'fat cat' greenseer-figure in Illyrio; and with Tyrion's thought that he would need a cleaver to remove the rings, the idea of 'paying the iron price' as well as 'the butcher king' is linked to the greenseers and their 'all-seeing' cat's eyes. Quote A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion I "It might please m'lord to strangle you. That's how I served my last whore. Do you think your master would object? Surely not. He has a hundred more like you, but no one else like me." This time, when he grinned, he got the fear he wanted. Illyrio was reclining on a padded couch, gobbling hot peppers and pearl onions from a wooden bowl. His brow was dotted with beads of sweat, his pig's eyes shining above his fat cheeks. Jewels danced when he moved his hands; onyx and opal, tiger's eye and tourmaline, ruby, amethyst, sapphire, emerald, jet and jade, a black diamond, and a green pearl. I could live for years on his rings, Tyrion mused, though I'd need a cleaver to claim them. "Come sit, my little friend." Illyrio waved him closer. A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion X Most of the guests paid them no more mind than they did the other slaves … but one Yunkishman declared drunkenly that Yezzan should make the two dwarfs fuck, and another demanded to know how Tyrion had lost his nose. I shoved it up your wife's cunt and she bit it off, he almost replied … but the storm had persuaded him that he did not want to die as yet, so instead he said, "It was cut off to punish me for insolence, lord." Then a lord in a blue tokar fringed with tiger's eyes recalled that Tyrion had boasted of his skill at cyvasse on the auction block. "Let us put him to the test," he said. A table and set of pieces was duly produced. A scant few moments later, the red-faced lord shoved the table over in fury, scattering the pieces across the carpets to the sound of Yunkish laughter. Quote Quote "Lord Eddard, yes, he had that reputation, but they named him traitor and took his head off even so." The old woman's eyes bore into her, sharp and bright as the points of swords. -Sansa I, aSoS I can see where you're going with this, in terms of Sansa being the 'blue falcon' traitor responsible for her father's downfall, at the end of Olenna's almost accusing glance -- at least that's the way Sansa's guilty subconscious conscience is interpreting it. It's reminiscent of this passage: Quote A Feast for Crows - Sansa I That night the dead man sang "The Day They Hanged Black Robin," "The Mother's Tears," and "The Rains of Castamere." Then he stopped for a while, but just as Sansa began to drift off he started to play again. He sang "Six Sorrows," "Fallen Leaves," and "Alysanne." Such sad songs, she thought. When she closed her eyes she could see him in his sky cell, huddled in a corner away from the cold black sky, crouched beneath a fur with his woodharp cradled against his chest. I must not pity him, she told herself. He was vain and cruel, and soon he will be dead. She could not save him. And why should she want to? Marillion tried to rape her, and Petyr had saved her life not once but twice. Some lies you have to tell. Lies had been all that kept her alive in King's Landing. If she had not lied to Joffrey, his Kingsguard would have beat her bloody. After "Alysanne" the singer stopped again, long enough for Sansa to snatch an hour's rest. But as the first light of dawn was prying at her shutters, she heard the soft strains of "On a Misty Morn" drifting up from below, and woke at once. That was more properly a woman's song, a lament sung by a mother on the dawn after some terrible battle, as she searches amongst the dead for the body of her only son. The mother sings her grief for her dead son, Sansa thought, but Marillion grieves for his fingers, for his eyes. The words rose like arrows and pierced her in the darkness. Notice that a profusion of lies, eyes, seeing, shutters, darkness, and other related words are emphasized and linked -- there is a wordplay on LIES and EYES and YES and AYES and I-es (the selfish 'I', the ego of 'pluralis majestatis' -- the 'royal we' being the ego which multiplies itself, who asserts itself at the expense of others). In terms of the 'blue falcon' motif, Sansa was witness to the murder of a family member (Lysa was her blood; Petyr is not), followed by the elaborate cover-up of the crime in which she's been complicit, together with the scapegoating of an innocent man, which she then seeks to justify with all sorts of lies and obfuscation (the 'mist' of the 'misty morn/mourn', Petyr's 'fog' of deception, including pre-eminently her own self-deception, the comforting oblivion in which she is losing herself). P.S. @GloubieBoulga This quote (above) may interest you, especially in light of your evolving thoughts on the sacrificed wolf maiden and/or child you mentioned earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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