The Lord of the Crossing Posted May 27, 2017 Share Posted May 27, 2017 The Hand, the monarch's right hand man. The person who manages the government on behalf of the ruling monarch. Out of all of the Hands that we have read of, who do you think did the best job of serving their monarch? Support your choice. Do you think we will finally see a woman serve as the Hand? Who will that lucky female be? Septon Barth Brynden Rivers Barristan Selmy Tyrion Lannister Wisdom Rossart Mace Tyrell Jon Arryn Davos Seaworth Tywin Lannister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
300 H&H Magnum Posted May 28, 2017 Share Posted May 28, 2017 11 hours ago, Lame Lothar Frey said: The Hand, the monarch's right hand man. The person who manages the government on behalf of the ruling monarch. Out of all of the Hands that we have read of, who do you think did the best job of serving their monarch? Support your choice. Bloodraven saved the Targaryen Dynasty. If not for him we would be saying Blackfyre Dynasty. Sure he had an unfair advantage because of his sorcery. Do you think we will finally see a woman serve as the Hand? Who will that lucky female be? Possibly someone like the Queen of Thorns. Septon Barth Brynden Rivers Barristan Selmy Tyrion Lannister Wisdom Rossart Mace Tyrell Jon Arryn Davos Seaworth Tywin Lannister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shi Qiang Posted May 28, 2017 Share Posted May 28, 2017 Bloodraven - he took his office during challenging times. He fought for the Targaryens and did everything necessary to secure their throne. He killed the Bf pretender. Barristan Selmy - took office in Mereen and proved his loyalty to his queen. Has taken to the battlefield against the slavers. Gave the best battle speech ever given in the books. Knows how to inspire his soldiers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mountain That Flies Posted May 28, 2017 Share Posted May 28, 2017 Tywin. Since the most serious Blackfyre threat was quashed before Bloodraven took over as Hand, I don't think that came be counted on his list of Hand-accomplishments (Handishments?). Tywin served Aerys so well he not only provided a counter-weight to the king's utter incompetence, but even led the realm to thriving. Selmy is an incredible battle commander, but is possibly being manipulated by the other political powers within Mereen. Tyrion did a great job, but one successful battle (which he would have eventually lost without Tywin and the Tyrells riding in when they did) does not equal 20 years of success. Septon Barth had the advantage of working with the best Targ king in history. Jon Arryn was a stabilizer, but was unable to really do much about the negative influences during Robert's reign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foot_Of_The_King Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 Tywin. Say what you will about him but he would have been an incredible king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorpion92 Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 Tywin. The realm prospered during the reign of Mad King. Think about it. Bloodraven is second best to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seams Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 Tywin. I suspect there will be a major twist in the Tywin story, and it will show that he was more in charge and, possibly, more dedicated to serving the realm than we have been led to believe. We never have a POV for him, so we only know what people say about him. Just as Jaime's character became more complex when we found out that he prevented Aerys from fire-bombing the city, I suspect there will be a revelation of hidden motivations and actions in Tywin's past. Tyrion was also great at the job. His competence as Hand and in problem-solving in general is a reflection of his upbringing by Tywin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Protagoras Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 Hmm, Septon Barth had an easy job, being hand to one of the best kings in history. Not saying that he lacks accomplishments, but when everything goes your way, its hard to not look good. Then again, he must have been good because of his long tenure. Bloodraven did a decent job rooting out traitors and he was hand during one of the worst natural disasters possible under a weak king, but you could argue that his methods created more problem than it solved. To take this quote: "Myself, I blame Bloodraven," Ser Kyle went on. "He is the King's Hand, yet he does nothing, whilst the krakens spread flame and terror up and down the sunset sea". Yes, Bloodravens fear of Bittersteel looks to be a good reason at first, but a kingdom too uninterested to support the land in times of need is not a kingdom that will later on support its monarch as fully as they could. Indeed, it is likelier that the Blackfyre threat was taken care of due to Aegon V and the removal of Bloodraven. Barristan is an abyssmal hand. Yes, he is trustworthy and good with a sword but a moral coward and too easily manipulated. He does not have the required skillset to deal with his new position (something he recognizes himself). He also gets schooled by an eleven year old in political intrigue. Need I say more? Tyrion Lannister basically did a bang-up job. He was able to to contain Joffreys worst impulses, make a plan to save the day and is cunning enough to root out traitors. He is certainly not motivated by justice, but by being loved but that is not really a weakness. His largest weakness is his unwillingness to engage in PR. And he is willing to dirtying his hands, something that Ned was not (and that ethic led to the destruction of himself, his house and his family). He also understand the importance of alliances. He had an impossible task and he did as good as can be expected. Nor is he as ruthless as Tywin,but a good mix between pragmatism and ideals. This hand job requires a certain amount of brutality. Rossart never got the chance to prove himself, but I doubt that he would have been successful. He was a political nominee and his one strength seem to have been that he was loyal toward his king. But would he have been able to find out hidden threats and to enfoce the king´s will effectivly? I think not. Not only is the man a commoner, but a sadist who seem to just nod at whatever Aerys say. Thats not an efficient hand. Hands need to complement the ruler. We havn´t seen much of Mace Tyrell so far as hand, but I think we can speculate in the result. Lord Puff-fish won´t see the threats until they are too late, focusing on improving the standings for his family rather than assisting Tommen. His reign will be short I take it and he will not be able to use his political clout to gain results, nor smart enough to use his new abilities to to its best. Jon Arryn was ok. He never saw the corruption from Lysa and Littlefinger, nor was he able to sway Robers bad impulses nor stabilizing the budget, nor didn´t he remove the old small council (which really should have been purged) and the man he added was even more of a risk, but he was the architect between the peace with Dorne and the marriage between Baratheon and Lannister. He also was able to deal with the Greyjoys and the realm was at peace...ish during his tenure. Then again, its easy to loo good if you have a long summer. Davos Seaworth seems to be more of a philosopher than a hand, due to his ideas of kingship, but its clear that he has had a positive impact on Stannis campaign. He came with the idea to save the north from the wildlings, taking Stannis back into the game and could theoretically with his deal with Wyman give Stannis the North. His smuggling of Edric can be discussed (and it is a flaw servingwise), but he was able to stand for it, be honest and truthful toward his king (very important!) and came out with head intact. He has so far done a decent job. Tywin Lannister gets a bad rap on this forum, but he and Tyrion knew how to play the game of thrones. He might be cruel and pragmatic (and certain choices - like not granting charters, are questionable) but he knew how to run a realm and he ran it under Aerys. Hardly the best monarch there is. Running the economy and keeping houses in line is a necessary ability and he, in contrast to Tyrion, had a long experience doing so. He was able to adapt to his king´s mood, be it maiming Ilyn or that Joanna incident. He is also very good at organizing, managing to raise and supply large numbers of troops even after defeats. The red wedding is also (for the Lannisters) a strength, since he was able to deal with an enemy politically, and that fallout will not hit Lannisters as much as the Freys and the Boltons. Again, this job requires a certain amount of brutality. So, yes - the Lannisters take this one. Who is best of them? Take your pick. Septon Barth and Davos (at least what we have seen so far) also clearly has some skills necessary for the office. As for a woman as hand, no I don´t think Westeros will allow that to happen for a while. Since women are barred from many positions in society, it will be hard for them to actually convince others of their worth. Even Queen of thorns (the best candidate imo) has to work behind the scenes. I suppose in the future, a Targaryen might nominate a female dragonrider (And Visenya sort of was hand to Aegon) but what we need is a person with power of her own, who doesn´t need to act through a man. And I don´t see that person in Westeros atm apart frm maybe Daenerys herself, but she lacks the political skills needed for that job (and want the crown, not to serve). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralphis Baratheon Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 Tywin Lannister. He was so good at ruling his King got jealous. Which is stupid because how good your hand and small council is reflects on how good you are as a King since you are the one who appointed them their jobs. Bloodraven was very good as even Maekar who hated him kept him as hand. Jon Arryn was a good man but he appointed a snake like Baelish as master of coin and he ended up stealing from the crown. Honestly Stannis had the right of it when he said he would have gotten rid of Baelish, Pycelle and Varys as they were all working to undermine Robert's reign to further they own goals. Tyrion did a solid job though Varys was still able to manipulate him at times. Out of everyone who is still living he'd probably be the best hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commentator Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 Bloodraven. The man saved his monarchs many times from the Blackfyre pretenders. He continues to serve the realm with what little life he has left. I wish he would get rid of Bran's mind and permanently take over Bran's body so he can live on to serve the realm that he loves so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Tywin and Bloodraven are top tier for me. Mostly for the reasons others have listed above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Lovejoy Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Probably not a popular opinion here, but I am not sold that Tyrion was a great HotK. Did he take his job seriously? Yes. Did he care about important things like making sure the populace had food and protection? Yes. Did he come up with a battle strategy that aided in the successful defense of KL? Absolutely. Did he prevent the King from committing some atrocities? You bet. But did he not also greedily seek to consolidate power for himself? Did he not also seek to subvert his sister and nephew rather than serve them? Did he not get too easily distracted by his selfish pursuits and wants that he may have missed out on Varys and LF taking advantage of him? Did he not isolate a potentially useful ally of his father who later proved to be not Cersei's man and an effective administrator to the realm (Pycelle) because he was more focused on consolidating his own power? Tyrion was a decent Hand and didn't have a great King or Queen Regent to work with, but he didn't even try to work with them, and some of his maneuvers seemed more spiteful than helpful. Maybe if instead of being coy and secretive he had tried proving his worth to Cersei things could have been better. Joffrey was beyond saving, but Cersei was at that point still reasonable enough and if Tyrion didn't actively antagonize him (and take joy in it) and if Tyrion involved Cersei in some of his work it wouldn't have contributed to the powder keg of distrust between Lannister siblings that LF and the Tyrells were able to exploit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commentator Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 3 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said: Probably not a popular opinion here, but I am not sold that Tyrion was a great HotK. Did he take his job seriously? Yes. Did he care about important things like making sure the populace had food and protection? Yes. Did he come up with a battle strategy that aided in the successful defense of KL? Absolutely. Did he prevent the King from committing some atrocities? You bet. But did he not also greedily seek to consolidate power for himself? Did he not also seek to subvert his sister and nephew rather than serve them? Did he not get too easily distracted by his selfish pursuits and wants that he may have missed out on Varys and LF taking advantage of him? Did he not isolate a potentially useful ally of his father who later proved to be not Cersei's man and an effective administrator to the realm (Pycelle) because he was more focused on consolidating his own power? Tyrion was a decent Hand and didn't have a great King or Queen Regent to work with, but he didn't even try to work with them, and some of his maneuvers seemed more spiteful than helpful. Maybe if instead of being coy and secretive he had tried proving his worth to Cersei things could have been better. Joffrey was beyond saving, but Cersei was at that point still reasonable enough and if Tyrion didn't actively antagonize him (and take joy in it) and if Tyrion involved Cersei in some of his work it wouldn't have contributed to the powder keg of distrust between Lannister siblings that LF and the Tyrells were able to exploit. I can agree to some of this. You see, Tyrion has personal issues. He has insecurities and complexes due to his dwarfism and the way people treated him growing up. I think he lets those complexes and feelings affect his decisions. While we would like to think he would have turned out a different man had his marriage to Tysha continued, we must be cautious before jumping to that conclusion. Love is not enough to keep people faithful. Tyrion and Robert had a lot in common. They both love the drink and the girls. Tyrion has a lot of character weaknesses that keep him from greatness. He is very much like Ser Jorah. Both are solid gray characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgana Lannister Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 8 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said: Probably not a popular opinion here, but I am not sold that Tyrion was a great HotK. Did he take his job seriously? Yes. Did he care about important things like making sure the populace had food and protection? Yes. Did he come up with a battle strategy that aided in the successful defense of KL? Absolutely. Did he prevent the King from committing some atrocities? You bet. But did he not also greedily seek to consolidate power for himself? Did he not also seek to subvert his sister and nephew rather than serve them? Did he not get too easily distracted by his selfish pursuits and wants that he may have missed out on Varys and LF taking advantage of him? Did he not isolate a potentially useful ally of his father who later proved to be not Cersei's man and an effective administrator to the realm (Pycelle) because he was more focused on consolidating his own power? Tyrion was a decent Hand and didn't have a great King or Queen Regent to work with, but he didn't even try to work with them, and some of his maneuvers seemed more spiteful than helpful. Maybe if instead of being coy and secretive he had tried proving his worth to Cersei things could have been better. Joffrey was beyond saving, but Cersei was at that point still reasonable enough and if Tyrion didn't actively antagonize him (and take joy in it) and if Tyrion involved Cersei in some of his work it wouldn't have contributed to the powder keg of distrust between Lannister siblings that LF and the Tyrells were able to exploit. He knew them too well to come clean and collaborate; I would have done the same .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgana Lannister Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 Just now, Morgana Lannister said: He knew them too well to come clean and collaborate; I would have done the same .... I guess I disagree Cersei here, she might not have been pure evil but she was pretty reckless (hence Robert's death and even, say (although more fool him) telling Ned... no polititian woud do that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 Bloodraven and Tywin take top spots in my estimation. You can't really have a bum as Hand. However, BR & Tywin both served established rulers, Egg The Unlikely and Joffrey Baratheon notwithstanding. However, I take issue with comments about Jon Arryn above. Jon Arryn's job was to rule the realm, not control the king. He negotiated established and very much needed peace with Dorne following the murder of Elia and her children. How easy could that have been? Jon Arryn was a great Hand. He had to be killed in order to get the Game started. As much as I love Tyrion and have every faith in his ability to be a top tier Hand, he didn't have the support or time to really prove himself. Given the overwhelming opposition, Tyrion did an admirable job. No doubt he will thrive with the proper support. Barristan Selmy does admirably with what he has to work with. He takes the Hand office under duress during a time of war and seeming abdication. At least no one in Mereen seems to know where Dany is and many of the locals doubt she's even alive. He rallies support for the fight if not Dany herself. A fine battle commander may be precisely what Dany needs in her absence. We will see how that shakes out. Davos serves as Hand to a contestant, not a king. I understand Stannis' claim and all that goes with it, but Stannis does not occupy the Iron Throne. Davos is possibly the greatest asset Stannis has insofar as gaining support and public relations go. If Euron is the Storm, Davos is the Calm. But rule of a realm? In my estimation Stannis goes too far off the rails for Davos to really curtail his iron fisted rule on a large scale (like instituting a national religion). Stannis needs someone like Tywin who can just sock him when he's wrong. Most of the women in our tale seem to want to be Queen. What woman would even want the supporting role? Mel? Brienne? Arya? A Sandsnake? Maybe Maege Mormont. She seems to take being a leader and follower with equanimity and appears to be trustworthy. That's sad considering all the really amazing women available in ASOIAF. I hope someone comes up with a good one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor Newman Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 It would depend upon the challenges the person in the office will have to face. For war, I pick Ser Barristan. For managing the economy, I pick Tywin. For political diplomacy, I might pick Tyrion. History is kind to Barth. Though I do have reservations about Barth's loyalty. I don't want someone more loyal to his god than to his sovereign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor Newman Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 6 minutes ago, Curled Finger said: Most of the women in our tale seem to want to be Queen. What woman would even want the supporting role? Mel? Brienne? Arya? A Sandsnake? Maybe Maege Mormont. She seems to take being a leader and follower with equanimity and appears to be trustworthy. That's sad considering all the really amazing women available in ASOIAF. I hope someone comes up with a good one. Missandei in a few years would make the best Hand of the Queen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 4 minutes ago, Take Me 2 Your Leader said: Missandei in a few years would make the best Hand of the Queen. That was the best we could do and I thank you for reminding me there is a multilingual, fiercely loyal little girl who could grow to be a woman of that caliber. Well done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 On 5/27/2017 at 7:48 PM, Lame Lothar Frey said: The Hand, the monarch's right hand man. The person who manages the government on behalf of the ruling monarch. Out of all of the Hands that we have read of, who do you think did the best job of serving their monarch? Support your choice. Do you think we will finally see a woman serve as the Hand? Who will that lucky female be? Septon Barth Brynden Rivers Barristan Selmy Tyrion Lannister Wisdom Rossart Mace Tyrell Jon Arryn Davos Seaworth Tywin Lannister I find that lack of Baelor Breakspear Targaryen on this list disturbing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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