Wolf's Bane Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 Many women in the story could make a wonderful hand but they are not likely to get that chance except Missandei. Missandei Lady Dustin Margery Tyrell Vogarro's Widow Myranda Royce when she grows up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgana Lannister Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 On 6/1/2017 at 3:13 AM, Curled Finger said: Bloodraven and Tywin take top spots in my estimation. You can't really have a bum as Hand. However, BR & Tywin both served established rulers, Egg The Unlikely and Joffrey Baratheon notwithstanding. However, I take issue with comments about Jon Arryn above. Jon Arryn's job was to rule the realm, not control the king. He negotiated established and very much needed peace with Dorne following the murder of Elia and her children. How easy could that have been? Jon Arryn was a great Hand. He had to be killed in order to get the Game started. As much as I love Tyrion and have every faith in his ability to be a top tier Hand, he didn't have the support or time to really prove himself. Given the overwhelming opposition, Tyrion did an admirable job. No doubt he will thrive with the proper support. Barristan Selmy does admirably with what he has to work with. He takes the Hand office under duress during a time of war and seeming abdication. At least no one in Mereen seems to know where Dany is and many of the locals doubt she's even alive. He rallies support for the fight if not Dany herself. A fine battle commander may be precisely what Dany needs in her absence. We will see how that shakes out. Davos serves as Hand to a contestant, not a king. I understand Stannis' claim and all that goes with it, but Stannis does not occupy the Iron Throne. Davos is possibly the greatest asset Stannis has insofar as gaining support and public relations go. If Euron is the Storm, Davos is the Calm. But rule of a realm? In my estimation Stannis goes too far off the rails for Davos to really curtail his iron fisted rule on a large scale (like instituting a national religion). Stannis needs someone like Tywin who can just sock him when he's wrong. Most of the women in our tale seem to want to be Queen. What woman would even want the supporting role? Mel? Brienne? Arya? A Sandsnake? Maybe Maege Mormont. She seems to take being a leader and follower with equanimity and appears to be trustworthy. That's sad considering all the really amazing women available in ASOIAF. I hope someone comes up with a good one. Maybe just teasing but Sansa??? Okay she would rather be Queen in the North or something, but that and Lady of the Rock, and if she plays her cards right, controlling the Vale??? She seems to be getting the training... Okay, if she got all that, and she already has the North if Bran choses not to pursue that route... and I am convinced Rickon will die in the books too; she is already married to Tyrion (okay, yes huge problems there with the succession... but not impossible depending on how Jaime plays it); so potentially two huge kingdoms, the Vale... (either marriage or my tinfoil outsmarting everyone). If she got all that, certainly not "side kick" character. I guess she may end up pretty main with Tyrion as side kick but in a situation where they both (and Jon too say) feel they are equals. So, I guess if my potential situation pans out she would be Queen in anything but name, so "you win" still without her "men" in that hypothetical situation she would not have gotten there and even Littlefinger, shit as he is, is someone she would have to be grateful to in some capacity lol I may not have expressed myself very well but felt that Sansa could be the "female" in a supporting role you are looking for; possibly to Jon, as sister... to Tyrion... as wife... but well no, I have to admit she would possibly want more but I quite like the inversion of roles, where the main male players's power rest (beside their own achievements) on her dynastic own.... As for the "Hands" dead as some of them are, I guess we will get to see in both books and show some of my "fab" team which pretty much includes your guys, maybe Tormund too...to Jon, say... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 On 6/3/2017 at 4:43 PM, Morgana Lannister said: Maybe just teasing but Sansa??? Okay she would rather be Queen in the North or something, but that and Lady of the Rock, and if she plays her cards right, controlling the Vale??? She seems to be getting the training... Okay, if she got all that, and she already has the North if Bran choses not to pursue that route... and I am convinced Rickon will die in the books too; she is already married to Tyrion (okay, yes huge problems there with the succession... but not impossible depending on how Jaime plays it); so potentially two huge kingdoms, the Vale... (either marriage or my tinfoil outsmarting everyone). If she got all that, certainly not "side kick" character. I guess she may end up pretty main with Tyrion as side kick but in a situation where they both (and Jon too say) feel they are equals. So, I guess if my potential situation pans out she would be Queen in anything but name, so "you win" still without her "men" in that hypothetical situation she would not have gotten there and even Littlefinger, shit as he is, is someone she would have to be grateful to in some capacity lol I may not have expressed myself very well but felt that Sansa could be the "female" in a supporting role you are looking for; possibly to Jon, as sister... to Tyrion... as wife... but well no, I have to admit she would possibly want more but I quite like the inversion of roles, where the main male players's power rest (beside their own achievements) on her dynastic own.... As for the "Hands" dead as some of them are, I guess we will get to see in both books and show some of my "fab" team which pretty much includes your guys, maybe Tormund too...to Jon, say... Oh my, what a cool cool idea--Tormund as Hand! I would enjoy a serious conversation about our larger than life loyal Wildling in a mainstream Westerosi culture and politics. Tormund as a Lord in the North even. The Wildlings are a fascinating group. Their potential assimilation is a fascinating topic. Do it! I will join you this weekend. Please let me know when you post the topic. Good thinking, @Morgana Lannister! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgana Lannister Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 On 6/6/2017 at 3:35 PM, Curled Finger said: Oh my, what a cool cool idea--Tormund as Hand! I would enjoy a serious conversation about our larger than life loyal Wildling in a mainstream Westerosi culture and politics. Tormund as a Lord in the North even. The Wildlings are a fascinating group. Their potential assimilation is a fascinating topic. Do it! I will join you this weekend. Please let me know when you post the topic. Good thinking, @Morgana Lannister! Wow, thank you! I am convinced that we are going to see what I call "Team Living" composed of many different factions and characters (most of the main grey) and although it may be very different in the books, even a different wildling, Tormund is right for Jon lol (IMHO) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgana Lannister Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 On 5/29/2017 at 2:12 PM, Protagoras said: Hmm, Septon Barth had an easy job, being hand to one of the best kings in history. Not saying that he lacks accomplishments, but when everything goes your way, its hard to not look good. Then again, he must have been good because of his long tenure. Bloodraven did a decent job rooting out traitors and he was hand during one of the worst natural disasters possible under a weak king, but you could argue that his methods created more problem than it solved. To take this quote: "Myself, I blame Bloodraven," Ser Kyle went on. "He is the King's Hand, yet he does nothing, whilst the krakens spread flame and terror up and down the sunset sea". Yes, Bloodravens fear of Bittersteel looks to be a good reason at first, but a kingdom too uninterested to support the land in times of need is not a kingdom that will later on support its monarch as fully as they could. Indeed, it is likelier that the Blackfyre threat was taken care of due to Aegon V and the removal of Bloodraven. Barristan is an abyssmal hand. Yes, he is trustworthy and good with a sword but a moral coward and too easily manipulated. He does not have the required skillset to deal with his new position (something he recognizes himself). He also gets schooled by an eleven year old in political intrigue. Need I say more? Tyrion Lannister basically did a bang-up job. He was able to to contain Joffreys worst impulses, make a plan to save the day and is cunning enough to root out traitors. He is certainly not motivated by justice, but by being loved but that is not really a weakness. His largest weakness is his unwillingness to engage in PR. And he is willing to dirtying his hands, something that Ned was not (and that ethic led to the destruction of himself, his house and his family). He also understand the importance of alliances. He had an impossible task and he did as good as can be expected. Nor is he as ruthless as Tywin,but a good mix between pragmatism and ideals. This hand job requires a certain amount of brutality. Rossart never got the chance to prove himself, but I doubt that he would have been successful. He was a political nominee and his one strength seem to have been that he was loyal toward his king. But would he have been able to find out hidden threats and to enfoce the king´s will effectivly? I think not. Not only is the man a commoner, but a sadist who seem to just nod at whatever Aerys say. Thats not an efficient hand. Hands need to complement the ruler. We havn´t seen much of Mace Tyrell so far as hand, but I think we can speculate in the result. Lord Puff-fish won´t see the threats until they are too late, focusing on improving the standings for his family rather than assisting Tommen. His reign will be short I take it and he will not be able to use his political clout to gain results, nor smart enough to use his new abilities to to its best. Jon Arryn was ok. He never saw the corruption from Lysa and Littlefinger, nor was he able to sway Robers bad impulses nor stabilizing the budget, nor didn´t he remove the old small council (which really should have been purged) and the man he added was even more of a risk, but he was the architect between the peace with Dorne and the marriage between Baratheon and Lannister. He also was able to deal with the Greyjoys and the realm was at peace...ish during his tenure. Then again, its easy to loo good if you have a long summer. Davos Seaworth seems to be more of a philosopher than a hand, due to his ideas of kingship, but its clear that he has had a positive impact on Stannis campaign. He came with the idea to save the north from the wildlings, taking Stannis back into the game and could theoretically with his deal with Wyman give Stannis the North. His smuggling of Edric can be discussed (and it is a flaw servingwise), but he was able to stand for it, be honest and truthful toward his king (very important!) and came out with head intact. He has so far done a decent job. Tywin Lannister gets a bad rap on this forum, but he and Tyrion knew how to play the game of thrones. He might be cruel and pragmatic (and certain choices - like not granting charters, are questionable) but he knew how to run a realm and he ran it under Aerys. Hardly the best monarch there is. Running the economy and keeping houses in line is a necessary ability and he, in contrast to Tyrion, had a long experience doing so. He was able to adapt to his king´s mood, be it maiming Ilyn or that Joanna incident. He is also very good at organizing, managing to raise and supply large numbers of troops even after defeats. The red wedding is also (for the Lannisters) a strength, since he was able to deal with an enemy politically, and that fallout will not hit Lannisters as much as the Freys and the Boltons. Again, this job requires a certain amount of brutality. So, yes - the Lannisters take this one. Who is best of them? Take your pick. Septon Barth and Davos (at least what we have seen so far) also clearly has some skills necessary for the office. As for a woman as hand, no I don´t think Westeros will allow that to happen for a while. Since women are barred from many positions in society, it will be hard for them to actually convince others of their worth. Even Queen of thorns (the best candidate imo) has to work behind the scenes. I suppose in the future, a Targaryen might nominate a female dragonrider (And Visenya sort of was hand to Aegon) but what we need is a person with power of her own, who doesn´t need to act through a man. And I don´t see that person in Westeros atm apart frm maybe Daenerys herself, but she lacks the political skills needed for that job (and want the crown, not to serve). Excellent analysis IMHO; good to see that despite our disagreement in other threads we can agree on something. To me at this moment in time, the Hand that is needed depends on the monarch they serve but I am totally with you on Tyrion and Davos. Tywin was competent until his King went mad, humiliated him and his wife and would have burn down KL, switching sides then was necessary. Okay, although some brutality is needed in that world, he is efficient for the most part but a bit too uncaring (unless we get to know more in the books - which would not surprise me- that alter that a bit). Tyrion in the last book was going through what is clearly a nervous break down. Even George has admitted that he won't stay like that forever and that anyone can get broken if you throw that much at them. Overall, like Davos, he is a moderate but he is cunning as well, so he will still be good at "rooting out" enemies. Failed to see LF framing him and Sansa though, so he is not by any means infallible. He would need a good team by his side but I think he is capable of putting one together. Yes, his need to be loved is likely to get in the way but if he could only be in a contented marriage (say) and have a few good old buddies around (like Pod), and after seeing what being passionate about, say, Shae, led to, I think he might grow out of it a bit. If him and Davos are able to see eye to eye despite what Tyrion did, they would be a pair I would put in my employ... Now, Davos, ironically for he was a smuggler seems to have a similar code of honour to Ned Stark in some ways and he can certainly talk sense even to unbent Stannis controlled by Mel lol This is good and bad hence I like the combination of Tyrion and him. Tyrion can be more "means justify end" but uses it sparingly (only time I can think of apart from within battle was the singer incident, and that was because his lover was in danger) and Davos can counteract that because he does the ethical thing (Edric, possibly Shireen...). To me if I had the IT a combination of the two would be ideal lol Now, I did mention Tormund (serving only to Jon). I think he two has the quality and some wildling representation is likely IMHO after all is done and dusted if they provide a major manpower to the war with the Others, after all is done and dusted... As for females I think changes will be made, especially with Dany as potential queen but which one/s??? There aren't many unless is Misandei to Dany... or Sansa to Jon/Tyrion??? If she stays as Tyrion's wife, I guess the system would prevent her from being both wife and hand, if not, in which terms they annulled??? Sansa will play a part no doubt but it won't be Hand as job tittle, I don't think. To Jon, a possibility... but remote "me thinks" I expect a prominent position for her though, either in the Council in some capacity that escapes me at the moment or as a very large Lady in terms of territory. So my problem is not so much that Westeros won't allow a woman the title of Hand (since they may well end up with a Queen) but the fact that I cannot see one fitting the roie with the characters we have and it is too late in the game to introduce someone of that acumen out of the blue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgana Lannister Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 On 6/2/2017 at 5:40 AM, Steelshanks Walton said: Many women in the story could make a wonderful hand but they are not likely to get that chance except Missandei. Missandei Lady Dustin Margery Tyrell Vogarro's Widow Myranda Royce when she grows up The thing is hand to whom? Missandei clear choice for Dany, granted, Lady Dustin and Vogarro's Widow are probably too old to seek a career. Hell, I don't mean that in real life an older woman cannot seek a career or have one, even after retirement but in their world... okay Jon Arryn was not a spring chicken but he didn't get the post in his old age, as I understand it, although I could be wrong. Margaery would be great for Sansa but she would overpower Sansa (although Sansa is growing in the game). I cannot see her being Hand to say Jon, maybe to Dany if she is out of options due to their deaths or something. Now, Myranda to Sansa again. Myranda is possibly my favourite support character. I think she is cunning and bright enough but what potential monarch would know that??? Only Sansa springs to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bard of Banefort Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 As of now, Viserys is the Hand I both respect and pity the most. Septon Barth was a great success, but he served during a time of peace and prosperity throughout the realm. Viserys had to support three different kings, one extremely depressed, one a teenage warmonger, and one an unstable religious zealot. Add to that a troublesome son, a defiant niece, three relatives being held captive in a sept for several years, a broken marriage, no dragons, and no parents to guide you, and it makes for a difficult life. Someone mentioned this earlier, but I actually could see Barbrey Dustin making a fine Hand if she ever found herself in that position. Post-ACOK Asha could also cut it, I think, and she even offered to be Victarion's Hand before the kingsmoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow is the man Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 blood raven by far. He didn't have tywin lannisters (must support my house and screw over everyone else). Not saying he wasn't loyal to his house. Plus he was just such a badass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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