treatment of bastards.

[Graydon Hicks]

i know my experience of the bastards of westeros is limited, but i've been thinking on if there is any difference on how bastards are treated, depending on where one is in the realm. like, does the north, which is predominantly First Men in culture, treat them any different from how the vale or the riverlands or the reach, which are mainly Andal in culture, with a much greater leaning to the Faith of the Seven, treat them? i know dorne is much more lenient, they see bastards as products of love, not shame, and should treated as  such. and i know that many of the highborn bastards seemed to be treated rather well, i see a lot of them go on to become knights in their families service. but when i look at how jon is treated, im trying to determine what is that manner? i kow catelyn hates him because what she thinks he represents, but it doesnt look like many of the other folk living at winterfell treat him that way. and when he goes to the wall, it looks like most of those who gripe about him being a bastard are those who were originally from South of the Neck. does the general mistreatment of bastards originally come from the Faith of the Seven?

[Bernie Mac]

Jon is still part of the 99.9% of Westeros society. As the son of the Lord of the North he likely gets treated with more respect than many nobles such as minor Houses or cousins of important Houses. 

 

In the South we have seen bastards sit the Small Council, even become Hand of the King, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard or sit important positions in the military ranks and marry other nobility. They can't inherit, but then the cousins of a Lord seem hugely unlikely to inherit as well and get by on a combination of merit and their relationship to the Lord of the House. 

 

Jon whines about his treatment in comparison to his siblings rather than in comparison to everyone else in Winterfell, who he is treated better than. We only have to see how the nepotism comes out in full swing at the Wall as he is fast traced to a leadership position and when he abandons his the Wall he is forgiven, when he wants Sam to be the first ever Brother to be excused from passing his training or picking a mission to go on despite not being properly trained. 

 

The biggest factor in how a bastard is treated has nothing to do with where they are born and everything to do with their (usually) fathers acknowledgement. 

[Shi Qiang]

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Jon is still part of the 99.9% of Westeros society. As the son of the Lord of the North he likely gets treated with more respect than many nobles such as minor Houses or cousins of important Houses. 

 

In the South we have seen bastards sit the Small Council, even become Hand of the King, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard or sit important positions in the military ranks and marry other nobility. They can't inherit, but then the cousins of a Lord seem hugely unlikely to inherit as well and get by on a combination of merit and their relationship to the Lord of the House. 

 

Jon whines about his treatment in comparison to his siblings rather than in comparison to everyone else in Winterfell, who he is treated better than. We only have to see how the nepotism comes out in full swing at the Wall as he is fast traced to a leadership position and when he abandons his the Wall he is forgiven, when he wants Sam to be the first ever Brother to be excused from passing his training or picking a mission to go on despite not being properly trained. 

 

The biggest factor in how a bastard is treated has nothing to do with where they are born and everything to do with their (usually) fathers acknowledgement. 

Yes.  I agree.  There is still a small cultural factor but for the most part, it is up to the father of the bastard.  The bastard cannot inherit property and titles, but there is nothing that stops a lord from leaving his bastards a chest full of Golden Dragons.  Bastards do not inherit even in Dorne.  That is the law of the land of Westeros.  Laws could change but for now it is not legal for a bastard to inherit.  Even Arianne would not marry a bastard.  She will sleep with one and might admit it publicly but she would never marry one. 

[Foot_Of_The_King]

16 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Jon is still part of the 99.9% of Westeros society. As the son of the Lord of the North he likely gets treated with more respect than many nobles such as minor Houses or cousins of important Houses. 

 

In the South we have seen bastards sit the Small Council, even become Hand of the King, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard or sit important positions in the military ranks and marry other nobility. They can't inherit, but then the cousins of a Lord seem hugely unlikely to inherit as well and get by on a combination of merit and their relationship to the Lord of the House. 

 

Jon whines about his treatment in comparison to his siblings rather than in comparison to everyone else in Winterfell, who he is treated better than. We only have to see how the nepotism comes out in full swing at the Wall as he is fast traced to a leadership position and when he abandons his the Wall he is forgiven, when he wants Sam to be the first ever Brother to be excused from passing his training or picking a mission to go on despite not being properly trained. 

 

The biggest factor in how a bastard is treated has nothing to do with where they are born and everything to do with their (usually) fathers acknowledgement. 

All of this

[Graydon Hicks]

ok, you do mention several bastards rising high in central westeros, like brynden rivers becoming hand of the king, but i did mention that many of the better treated bastards arre highborn, like edric storm. and bloodraven, along with all his illegitimate siblings, were legitimized by aegon the 4th.

[devilish]

Bastards has a nasty reputation following what happened during the Blackfyre rebellion. Prior to that bastards were treated with more respect. The best HOTK in Westeros history was a bastard

[kissdbyfire]

On 28/05/2017 at 7:29 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Jon is still part of the 99.9% of Westeros society. As the son of the Lord of the North he likely gets treated with more respect than many nobles such as minor Houses or cousins of important Houses. 

 

In the South we have seen bastards sit the Small Council, even become Hand of the King, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard or sit important positions in the military ranks and marry other nobility. They can't inherit, but then the cousins of a Lord seem hugely unlikely to inherit as well and get by on a combination of merit and their relationship to the Lord of the House. 

 

Jon whines about his treatment in comparison to his siblings rather than in comparison to everyone else in Winterfell, who he is treated better than. We only have to see how the nepotism comes out in full swing at the Wall as he is fast traced to a leadership position and when he abandons his the Wall he is forgiven, when he wants Sam to be the first ever Brother to be excused from passing his training or picking a mission to go on despite not being properly trained. 

 

The biggest factor in how a bastard is treated has nothing to do with where they are born and everything to do with their (usually) fathers acknowledgement. 

I disagree. Sure, Jon is kind of fast tracked to a leadership position in part because he is Ned's bastard - as far as they're concerned - and Benjen's nephew. But also b/c they, or more specifically LC Mormont and maester Aemon, see qualities in him that are desirable in someone in a leadership position. Mormont forgives him his almost running away because he came back and b/c everyone makes mistakes. And when Jon pled with maester Aemon to let Sam take his vows w/ the rest of them, Aemon did what he could because he saw the sense in what Jon told him imo; Sam is indeed a lot more valuable as a steward than a plaything for Thorne to torment. So, imo, Aemon is guilty of having common sense, not of nepotism. 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

 I think Aemon was just happy that Jon and Sam (young men who weren't rapers and killers that could read) wanted to be his friend. He seemed like a lonely old guy that wanted high born company. I mean for guy who just wanted to be a Maester and only joined the NW so he couldn't be used against his brother he spent along time there.

[Daena the Defiant]

28 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I disagree. Sure, Jon is kind of fast tracked to a leadership position in part because he is Ned's bastard - as far as they're concerned - and Benjen's nephew. But also b/c they, or more specifically LC Mormont and maester Aemon, see qualities in him that are desirable in someone in a leadership position. Mormont forgives him his almost running away because he came back and b/c everyone makes mistakes. And when Jon pled with maester Aemon to let Sam take his vows w/ the rest of them, Aemon did what he could because he saw the sense in what Jon told him imo; Sam is indeed a lot more valuable as a steward than a plaything for Thorne to torment. So, imo, Aemon is guilty of having common sense, not of nepotism. 

Agreed. Jon Snow, being raised like a noble in virtually all respects, has what the officer class of the NW recognizes as necessary in the leadership - a proper military education. 

[Bernie Mac]

51 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I disagree. Sure, Jon is kind of fast tracked to a leadership position in part because he is Ned's bastard - as far as they're concerned - and Benjen's nephew. But also b/c they, or more specifically LC Mormont and maester Aemon, see qualities in him that are desirable in someone in a leadership position.

We see from the start that Mormont takes an interest in the son of Ned Stark, delivering him messages from Winterfell. Do you think he is doing the same for any other of the non noble recruits?

There is little reason why the overworked Lord Commander of the Nights Watch should be taking such a special interest in the current batch of recruits and ignoring what his own trainer is telling him about Jon Snow. 

The only way Mormont would have known that Jon is someone with that potential is by taking an interest and that interest is entirely down to who his father is. We hear of how stressed Mormont is, how under manned the Wall is. They need more men and the best way to get more men is to make sure that the sons, brothers and cousins of the most powerful Lords of the Realm are treated well. 

51 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Mormont forgives him his almost running away because he came back and b/c everyone makes mistakes.

He does it because he is a member of House Stark and it does not pay to anger the chief benefactors of Nights Watch. 

This is made pretty clear by Sam

"My lord, when I was looking through the annals I came on another boy commander. Four hundred years before the Conquest. Osric Stark was ten when he was chosen, but he served for sixty years. That's four, my lord. You're not even close to being the youngest ever chosen. You're fifth youngest, so far."

"The younger four all being sons, brothers, or bastards of the King in the North. 

 

The only Lord Commander's who have been fast tracked as quickly as Jon have all been of Stark blood. Now I know some in fandom are going to want to use this as evidence of how great the Starks are but the more logical conclusion is that it is favouritism. 

51 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

 

And when Jon pled with maester Aemon to let Sam take his vows w/ the rest of them, Aemon did what he could because he saw the sense in what Jon told him imo; Sam is indeed a lot more valuable as a steward than a plaything for Thorne to torment. So, imo, Aemon is guilty of having common sense, not of nepotism. 

The Watch has existed for thousands of years. They get batches of new recruits every year and Sam is, as far as we know, the only one allowed to skip their training. And because Jon Snow asked. 

 

He got fast tracked due to nepotism. That takes away nothing from his ability as a leader, but they were focused on him from the start a focus that Grenn, Pyp and others would not have been subject to. 

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I disagree. Sure, Jon is kind of fast tracked to a leadership position in part because he is Ned's bastard - as far as they're concerned - and Benjen's nephew. But also b/c they, or more specifically LC Mormont and maester Aemon, see qualities in him that are desirable in someone in a leadership position. Mormont forgives him his almost running away because he came back and b/c everyone makes mistakes. And when Jon pled with maester Aemon to let Sam take his vows w/ the rest of them, Aemon did what he could because he saw the sense in what Jon told him imo; Sam is indeed a lot more valuable as a steward than a plaything for Thorne to torment. So, imo, Aemon is guilty of having common sense, not of nepotism. 

It is his name what makes people care about his qualities. If Jon were as talented as Jon but actually Pyp or Green nobody would consider electing him Lord Commander.

The only boy Lord Commanders of the NW we know of also were Stark bastards, so there is a theme there. Rank and nobility are not as important at the Wall than they are down in the Realm, but they still are important.

Noble bastards rise to to the top more often at the Wall than they do elsewhere, but that doesn't mean that common bastards have the same advantages. And quite honestly, that's only the case because there are very few princes and lords at the Wall. If they go there they rise to the top even more quickly. I don't recall a commoner Lord Commander of the NW right now. The ones I recall are all noblemen or the (noble) bastards of noblemen - Mormont, Qorgyle, Bloodraven, Runcel Hightower, etc. Even the commanders of the other castles usually are noblemen as Denys Mallister and Cotter Pyke prove. Pyke is a noble bastard, else he wouldn't bear the name 'Pyke'.

The fact that the Lord Commander is elected doesn't mean this is a democracy. There is a ruling class at the Wall from which the men who stand a chance to be elected Lord Commander come from. And those are the people with a noble background, be they bastards or trueborn.

[The Mountain That Flies]

To the OP, bastards are bastards everywhere. But, if the bastard is well connected and looked after, they can rise far. First Men Culture does not seem notably different from Andal culture in that regard. The two are really not as different as they are often made out to be, and hold the same basic tenants as iron-clad rules (guest right, patriarchal family structures, anti-kinslaying). 

Regarding the debate around Starks being given preferential treatment at the Wall, it's very clearly a real thing, but if you've ever worked in fundraising then the idea of being a bit overly nice to your major patron isn't quite as repulsive as the word "nepotism" sounds.

[snow is the man]

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

We see from the start that Mormont takes an interest in the son of Ned Stark, delivering him messages from Winterfell. Do you think he is doing the same for any other of the non noble recruits?

There is little reason why the overworked Lord Commander of the Nights Watch should be taking such a special interest in the current batch of recruits and ignoring what his own trainer is telling him about Jon Snow. 

The only way Mormont would have known that Jon is someone with that potential is by taking an interest and that interest is entirely down to who his father is. We hear of how stressed Mormont is, how under manned the Wall is. They need more men and the best way to get more men is to make sure that the sons, brothers and cousins of the most powerful Lords of the Realm are treated well. 

He does it because he is a member of House Stark and it does not pay to anger the chief benefactors of Nights Watch. 

This is made pretty clear by Sam

"My lord, when I was looking through the annals I came on another boy commander. Four hundred years before the Conquest. Osric Stark was ten when he was chosen, but he served for sixty years. That's four, my lord. You're not even close to being the youngest ever chosen. You're fifth youngest, so far."

"The younger four all being sons, brothers, or bastards of the King in the North. 

 

The only Lord Commander's who have been fast tracked as quickly as Jon have all been of Stark blood. Now I know some in fandom are going to want to use this as evidence of how great the Starks are but the more logical conclusion is that it is favouritism. 

The Watch has existed for thousands of years. They get batches of new recruits every year and Sam is, as far as we know, the only one allowed to skip their training. And because Jon Snow asked. 

 

He got fast tracked due to nepotism. That takes away nothing from his ability as a leader, but they were focused on him from the start a focus that Grenn, Pyp and others would not have been subject to. 

To be fair his own trainer (ser alister) was an idiot and completly useless. Pyp didn't even know how to hold a sword properly until jon taught him. I think mormont used ser alister because he was short handed not for any love or respect of him. And because ser alister was a knight. And sam was a special case because he was incredibly smart and jon made a good case about it. I think aemon and mormont like jon snow but also because he shows promise. How many recruits came to the wall with a direwolf. I think it was benjen stark more the anything else that go them taking a special interest in him. And that was because benjen stark was a damn good ranger. I think in the past the starks have been fast tracked in the nights watch now most either don't care or actively dislike him because of it. from the time that ned stark was called a traitor it seemed to matter less and less until it actively went against him. And that idiotic septon actualy went against him with janos slynt because he worshippsed the old gods. Honestly in the beggining it helped but afterwards it didn't. That said I think it had more to do with people liking and respecting benjen stark then being a stark.

Qhorin halfhand seemed to be impressed by the direwolf and believed the help of the old gods were needed. And if I remember correctly he mentions benjen stark not ned stark

[Graydon Hicks]

remember that House Stark has a reputation for behaving with honor and upholding duty with a consistent basis, as well and producing surprisingly competent scions on a regular basis. so was he raised just because of who his "father" was, or because of the values and teaching ned endowed into his children?

[Traverys]

I personally think it's more of a cultural thing, which of course includes religion. Since the First Men keep to the Old Gods and the Rhoynish probably (I skimmed the AWoIaF section on them) worshiped a personification of the river from their homeland, it's a fair hypothesis that this had to do with the Faith. The World of Ice and Fire Book points out that Dorne and the North have more in common with each other than they do with the other parts of Westeros. This is mostly just the book saying that they have a lot of cultural norms that are different from the rest of the country, and I personally think reactions to bastardy is involved in this.

We know from the Sand Snakes that Dorne doesn't have such a strong prejudice against bastards and the same is possibly true in the North (or at least for the Starks).

Quote

The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him “son” for all the north to see.

Martin, George R.R.. A Game of Thrones: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book One (p. 62). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Jon also points out that while he had to sit away from his family at dinner while Robert and co. was visiting, he normally had a place at the family table. But that's a Stark example again.

Surprisingly, there are only 3 northern bastards mentioned to begin with...  Ramsay Snow/Bolton is never some big secret and he resides at the Dreadfort with his father (of course, he murdered his half-brother...). Another Northern lord suggested that a bastard become legitimized in order to be heir to Lady Hornwood (before she is abducted by Ramsay), which I'm not sure would fly so easily in other parts of Westeros. That's only speculation.

I've always suspected Maege Mormant's daughters were all bastards (no husband ever mentioned). But they all have trueborn names and no one in-world is contesting it.

[Graydon Hicks]

of course, outside those instances of the northern treatment, we simply dont know enough to tell if this kind of treatment is widespread throughout the north. but we know far more about how the andals treat bastards. we've seen the legal ways of their treatment, but thats not cultural. in their society, the father provides for his bastards' future, but isnt really supposed to have contact or interact meaningfully with them, its a social no no.

[Wolfgirly]

There is prejudice among bastards mainly within the nobility and not so much with the rest of the population. Bastards are treated like dogs as they have no legit claims to anything and are seen less than the house staff, as a reminder of the parents' behaviour. Saying this, the real bad atitude is from certain parts like Kings Landing. At the beginning of the series, everyone made fun of Jon Snow about being a "bastard", and it turns out that he isn't. If anyone reads the first book again and even watches the first season, notice how things differ. Look at King Joffrey who is a real big bastard who became a king! The other end of Westeros is not so nasty, the sand snakes are a group of girls born out of wedlock and pretty cool. 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Graydon Hicks said:

of course, outside those instances of the northern treatment, we simply dont know enough to tell if this kind of treatment is widespread throughout the north. but we know far more about how the andals treat bastards. we've seen the legal ways of their treatment, but thats not cultural. in their society, the father provides for his bastards' future, but isnt really supposed to have contact or interact meaningfully with them, its a social no no.

It doesn't seem to be that strange for kings and lords to keep their bastards closer than Cat makes us think they should. Aegon the Unworthy treated Daemon Blackfyre pretty much like a trueborn son (after he acknowledged him as his son, that is), and there are other bastards in the series that rose to prominence and power in their families - Rolland Storm, the Bastard of Nightsong, Aurane Waters, the Bastard of Driftmark, etc. It is not that uncommon that bastards play crucial roles in politics, or come to play crucial roles in certain situations.

What Cat most likely means with Jon there is that Ned may actually have shown fatherly affection to Jon in front of others. If he did call him son and made usually no difference in protocol and rank between Jon and Cat's children people certainly would take note of that. And that clearly was dangerous for her children. It didn't make Jon a Stark but it made him less a Snow and more a Stark than he would have been had he been treated like noble bastards usually are.

Historically it seems that at least two Stark bastards had played prominent roles in Winterfell - first Brandon Snow, King Torrhen's bastard brother, who offered to sneak into Aegon's camp to try to slay the dragons while they slept, and second the bastard sister of Lord Cregan who Jacaerys Velaryon allegedly married during the Dance. But nothing indicates that Stark bastards usually played such prominent roles. It is much more likely that those were special people and special circumstances.

[The Mountain that Cries]

On 5/29/2017 at 0:51 AM, Graydon Hicks said:

ok, you do mention several bastards rising high in central westeros, like brynden rivers becoming hand of the king, but i did mention that many of the better treated bastards arre highborn, like edric storm. and bloodraven, along with all his illegitimate siblings, were legitimized by aegon the 4th.

I am of the opinion bastards are only highborn. The small folk probably don't care bracuse there all screwed. What i mean by this is. Lets say a small folk couple married in the faith of the seven. If one of the married couple had a child outside of that marriage. That child will only be held has less by the opposed participant and that would only last till that child left that area. Small communities tend weed out people and things they don't like when they can.  I don't even think they would be given a last name. Calling someone sand or snow usually belongs to the highborn alone. Last names are used to identify lineage. and i am pretty sure if a small folk has a last name its was cause at some point recently there family rose in status by say taking over an inn and controlling it for a generation or more.

 

[Knight of the Red Tree]

All I know is that bastardy is an much greater stigma in Westeros than it was in real life. William of Normandy, the Conqueror, was a bastard. Also I think one of the bastard daughters of Alfonso X was amicably married to an contemporary King of Portugal.