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Where was Petyr?


Graydon Hicks

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i've been working on a theory as to why there was no message sent by lyanna when she ran off with rhaegar, but in order for me to think it valid, i need to know where petyr bealish was at the time of the "abduction". was he still at riverrun, or had he been sent back to the vale yet?

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By my reckoning, he was well away back in the Fingers.  He was sent away a fortnight after the duel, in a litter.  If Brandon was *returning* from the North when he heard what happened, he had to have been there already, and that's a much further journey - I absolutely don't think they crossed paths, or that Petyr heard anything until after the event. (No Maester, no ravens)

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very well, that kills my theory. i dont think lyanna ran off with rhaegar without leaving a message to be sent to winterfell, explaining herself to her family. at the same time, i read something, a fanfiction, where proposed a theory to me that made a certain amount of sense, that lyanna sent a message, but had asked petyr to deliver/send it on to her family and robert, but bealish altered it and used it to make sure that brandon would go to kings landing, knowing what brandon would ask for and how aerys would react. but ive been trying to figure, if it was a valid theory, how would petyr crossed paths with the message. if he was in the vale, maybe he intercepted the message being sent to robert, then used robert to convince brandon to go to the capital, but thats an even flimsier theory.

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I'm prepared to be contradicted by people who have read more and in depth, but just looking at the map, I don't see how paths would cross.  I mean, I can believe Petyr would dearly have loved to mess with Brandon, but at this point, I think he was a broken, traumatised mess in the arse end of beyond.  

I'm intrigued by the theory that something was kicking off in the North, regardless.  Arryn, Tully and Stark getting nervous about Aerys, but perhaps considering independence rather than Rhaegar.  Once the Targaryens no longer had Weapons of Mass Immolation, there was always going to be unrest.  Three hundred years of unification versus a few thousand of Independence...hmm.  The Rhaegar/Lyanna situation just touched off something about to explode.

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10 hours ago, Graydon Hicks said:

very well, that kills my theory. i dont think lyanna ran off with rhaegar without leaving a message to be sent to winterfell, explaining herself to her family. at the same time, i read something, a fanfiction, where proposed a theory to me that made a certain amount of sense, that lyanna sent a message, but had asked petyr to deliver/send it on to her family and robert, but bealish altered it and used it to make sure that brandon would go to kings landing, knowing what brandon would ask for and how aerys would react. but ive been trying to figure, if it was a valid theory, how would petyr crossed paths with the message. if he was in the vale, maybe he intercepted the message being sent to robert, then used robert to convince brandon to go to the capital, but thats an even flimsier theory.

Petyr was an early teen during the abduction. There is zero indication that Lyanna and Petyr ever met, much less had enough of a friendship to make him a messenger to her. This theory is dead in the water 

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Baelish was 15, not a child by Westeros terms. A young man with connections as he was a ward of the house. 

He was sent away after the duel but not before having sex with Lysa impregnating her. His path was not clear, as he was said to return to the Vale but no indication of when that actually happened. 

Lyanna was abducted in the Riverlands, 10 leagues from Harrenhal. Where exactly isn't known. However if she was leaving Winterfel for Riverrun, that would have put her path on a direct collision course with Baelish exiting to the Vale. 

 

From what we know about Baelish already his schemes have fueled the main events of the series. I've little doubt he has fueled past major events. 

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1 hour ago, Helikzhan said:

Baelish was 15, not a child by Westeros terms. A young man with connections as he was a ward of the house. 

He was sent away after the duel but not before having sex with Lysa impregnating her. His path was not clear, as he was said to return to the Vale but no indication of when that actually happened. 

Lyanna was abducted in the Riverlands, 10 leagues from Harrenhal. Where exactly isn't known. However if she was leaving Winterfel for Riverrun, that would have put her path on a direct collision course with Baelish exiting to the Vale. 

 

From what we know about Baelish already his schemes have fueled the main events of the series. I've little doubt he has fueled past major events. 

He had no connections at 15. His father sent him to  foster for the sake of making connections.  His father was a very minor lord and his lands, as we saw in feast were meager. His  star and power did not begin to rise until Lysa convinced her husband to place him in charge of customs in Gulltown fully 7 years after the duel with Brandon. The idea that he would somehow be involved in the abduction in the smallest manner is a neat bit of fan fic, but there is ZERO indication of it in the novels, made obvious by people working hard to make it work with zero information, 

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1 minute ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

He had no connections at 15. His father sent him to  foster for the sake of making connections.  His father was a very minor lord and his lands, as we saw in feast were meager. His  star and power did not begin to rise until Lysa convinced her husband to place him in charge of customs in Gulltown fully 7 years after the duel with Brandon. The idea that he would somehow be involved in the abduction in the smallest manner is a neat bit of fan fic, but there is ZERO indication of it in the novels, made obvious by people working hard to make it work with zero information, 

You said it yourself. He was sent to ward for the Tully family to build favor for his house. That meant he made connections. This has nothing to do with his father and everything to do with him. Being ward of house Tully from 8 to 15 is 7 years of establishing connections and knowing how the main houses get on. That's more than enough time. 

He didn't need to be a star for the abduction story to spread. He just had to know what happened and enough time to twist the narrative in a way favorable to him. He knew Brandon well enough to know that Brandon would rush off to KL in search of his sister. As Hoster Tully said, Brandon was a gallant fool and probably said so more than once preceding his ride to KL. So already there is motive for Baelish to spread this tale. 

On top of that the trajectory for Lyanna heading to Riverrun and Baelish leaving Riverrun for the Vale means they would cross paths. He could have ensured nobody would know the truth by being the only witness to her departure. By hook or crook. 

If it's fan fic it's damn good. 

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the fic is "A Stitch in Time" by Will O'the Wisp, on fanfiction.net. after i read that scene, it made me think. if petyr was any position to corsspaths with the message, then the theory is actually quite sound, knowing the kind of person littlefinger is and how he operates. you dont really change your methods as you age, you just refine them.

i would say, that if, and only if, he was still in riverrun, it would easy for him to get a hold of the message and alter it. as simple as telling the messanger "oh, dont worry, ill take to the maesters/rookery for you." then fiddle with it in route. or, he comes across lyanna and rhaegar on the road and offers to deliver the message for her, thats plausible.

now, im not saying he personally knew lyanna, maybe not have even seen her. but in all the riverlands, the tullys would the family that lyanna woudl have had the most contact with, even if only peripherally, through her brother. so it would make sense for her to send the message their way first, and have them relay it to winterfell via raven.

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The timings do not work.

Petyr was banished from Riverrun a bare fortnight after the duel.  (It's doubtful whether Hoster knew about him and Lysa, and Lysa can't even have known she was pregnant at this point.)  He's in a litter, so with a couple of Tully men to dump him back where he came from? He's also very badly injured, and probably not in a fit mental state to be doing much but hurting.

Brandon was heading *back* from Winterfell when he heard the news.  That is more than a fortnight's journey to get to Winterfell from Riverrun, even to be turning around immediately.

Harrenhall is the wrong side of the King's Road, and too far south, for anyone there to cross paths with someone heading Valewards.

I know everyone wants Petyr to be the Devil, and responsible for every evil, but I just don't think he was geographically in a position to do this one.

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1 hour ago, SeaWitch said:

The timings do not work.

Petyr was banished from Riverrun a bare fortnight after the duel.  (It's doubtful whether Hoster knew about him and Lysa, and Lysa can't even have known she was pregnant at this point.)  He's in a litter, so with a couple of Tully men to dump him back where he came from? He's also very badly injured, and probably not in a fit mental state to be doing much but hurting.

Brandon was heading *back* from Winterfell when he heard the news.  That is more than a fortnight's journey to get to Winterfell from Riverrun, even to be turning around immediately.

Harrenhall is the wrong side of the King's Road, and too far south, for anyone there to cross paths with someone heading Valewards.

I know everyone wants Petyr to be the Devil, and responsible for every evil, but I just don't think he was geographically in a position to do this one.

i disagree. for one, we do know that hoster knew what lysa and petyr had done, because he sent petyr home as soon as he found out and made lysa drink moontea to abort the pregnancy. lysa was wanting to marry petyr, thats why she slept with him and wanted his baby. she slept with him one night when he was drunk, im not sure when that was, but petyr was so wasted he thought it was catelyn he was with, thats why he was telling people he had taken her maiden head. then he slept with lysa again, this time knowing full well what he was doing. thats the one that got her pregnant.

as for the abduction location, all i know was that it was within 10 leagues, 70 miles, of harrenhall. now, we know that harrenhal is east of riverrun, on the gods eye lake, and fairly close to kingslanding. now if petyr was being sent back to the vale at the time of the "abduction", he would have traveled in a straight line cross country, he would have taken the nearest main road or river that ran in the general direction he needed to go, he would have taken either the riverroad, which runs from the golden tooth, to the trident. or he would have taken barge or boat down the red fork to the saltpans. either way puts him passing within the 10 league radius of harrenhal. remember that no one has specifically said the exact location lyanna and rhaegar left from, only that it was within 10 leagues of harrenhal, likely on the kingsroad, since lyanna was supposed to be on her way to riverrun.

now, i have already had someone tell me in a earlier post that petyr was supposed to already be in the vale, and that shoot down my theory, i was simply trying to explain how the theory works only if petyr was either still in riverrun or had come across lyanna on the road.

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I think Hoster banished Petyr for the duel, embarrassing him in front of the Starks. Lysa was an unpleasant surprise.  (The drinking and quasi-rape was just before the duel, and I think Petyr issued the challenge *because* he thought it was Cat. Being disabused of that would be shattering.  And a bloke with a near mortal injury and drugged out of his mind isn't entirely consenting, either. But. Different thread.)

Even if Petyr encountered Lyanna/Rhaegar, they have no reason to let him hold a message, surely?  Lyanna might know of him, distantly, but Rhaegar would have no idea who this scrawny lad is.

Really, the logistics of this world are insane.  The distances for effective communication, even with <strike> magical postowls <strike> ravens, are ludicrous.  And transport is erratic, dependent on weather, terrain, the fitness of horses and riders...

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4 hours ago, SeaWitch said:

The timings do not work.

Petyr was banished from Riverrun a bare fortnight after the duel.  (It's doubtful whether Hoster knew about him and Lysa, and Lysa can't even have known she was pregnant at this point.)  He's in a litter, so with a couple of Tully men to dump him back where he came from? He's also very badly injured, and probably not in a fit mental state to be doing much but hurting.

Brandon was heading *back* from Winterfell when he heard the news.  That is more than a fortnight's journey to get to Winterfell from Riverrun, even to be turning around immediately.

Harrenhall is the wrong side of the King's Road, and too far south, for anyone there to cross paths with someone heading Valewards.

I know everyone wants Petyr to be the Devil, and responsible for every evil, but I just don't think he was geographically in a position to do this one.

 

When it was said they were not 10 leagues from Harrenhal, what direction were they talking about?  If Lyanna was heading from Winterfel to Riverrun, that trajectory would be the same as Baelish heading from Riverrun to the Vale. 

 

Also, this part is interesting and it lines up with what @Graydon Hicks said. If she was much further south than the ride to Riverrun would require, why was she so far south? Did she secretly plan to escape with Rhaegar from this point? It's possible. Some think she was hoping to avoid Robert during this time and knowing everyone would be at Brandon and Cat's wedding, she fled with Rhaegar south. Maybe for more than just love. Maybe she and Rhaegar had already done more than eyeball one another. 

Also, roads in Westeros would be few. Not many would be required and important people would hold to the well-traveled roads for precaution. No doubt Lyanna took the King's road. Baelish would have taken River road and both these roads intersect north of the Godseye.

Guess what's also north of the Godseye? Harrenhal. 

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1 hour ago, Helikzhan said:

...Some think she was hoping to avoid Robert during this time and knowing everyone would be at Brandon and Cat's wedding, she fled with Rhaegar south. Maybe for more than just love. Maybe she and Rhaegar had already done more than eyeball one another.

Wait.

Are you saying Lyanna eloped with Rhaegar during the  wedding celebrations in Riverrun of Cat and Brandon.

Or do you mean Lyanna might have been in Riverrun visiting her good friends Cat and Lysa for the preparations of the wedding of her brother Brandon?

 

An elopement.

It could make sense. Lyanna wouldn't have been the first 14 year-old in history infatuated with a handsome (already married) singer. 

 

Petyr Baelish travelling, badly wounded, in a litter from Riverrun to the Fingers

Rhaegar, his two KGs and Lyanna riding from Riverrun to Dorne.

How could they cross paths?

At the Crossroads Inn?

 

 

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Hi again @Graydon Hicks!

Just a short(ish) note :) to encourage you not to be dissuaded by the naysayers, the Baelish apologists, and the 'theory dead in the water' comments.  Although I can't offer you the logistical proof you need -- that's really not my forte -- what I'm good at however, is uncovering the symbolic underpinnings; and interestingly, as pertains to your project, I and others, such as @Pain killer Jane have found compelling evidence of a recurring pattern, with particular although not exclusive reference to Baelish, of a message or messenger having been crucially interfered with by what we've termed a "trickster ('naughty') greenseer figure", which is Baelish's archetype in the story's plot.  I've written about the idea in more general terms within the framework of unpacking the Prologue on an allegorical level in my 'Killing Word' thread.  In a nutshell, Will the trickster greenseer figure there 'whispers a prayer to the nameless gods of the wood', effectively summoning those demons = the Others, who kill his brother, against whom he's built up considerable resentment after having been mocked by him.  These treacherous 'whispers' emanating from a shadowy hidden player (Will is 'lost among the needles' of the sentinel, while his brothers flounder on the ground) are also Littlefinger's self-professed modus operandi.  Notice, Will effectively assassinates his Night's Watch brother Waymar by proxy, and at a remove, without 'getting his hands dirty' -- remind you of anyone?  In addition to the whispers, Will holds his silence facilitating his brother's death -- thus murder can be entertained by omission just as much as commission.  Perhaps Littlefinger likewise strategically 'failed' to pass on a message entrusted to him, or deliberately omitted to warn someone of some potential danger he'd accidentally witnessed en route back to the Fingers?  Littlefinger is a small guy who lost at swords; so he turns to 'duelling with words', and this includes twisting the words of others  -- we've already seen an example of this in how he tampered with both Lysa and her message to her sister via the poisonous missive packaged with the suggestive Myrish (pun on 'mire'=trap) lens in a coffin-shaped box.  Will is a nod to the writer William Shakespeare, so there's also that connection to a master wordsmith, as well as evoking the idea of 'will' as in 'willpower' as both @evita mgfs and @Unchained have cleverly suggested -- and who can doubt someone like Littlefinger's indomitable will to get even with those who made him feel small?

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Sansa VI

Sansa raised a hand to her mouth. "You cannot mean . . . she wanted to take me to Highgarden, to marry me to her grandson . . ."

"Gentle, pious, good-hearted Willas Tyrell. Be grateful you were spared, he would have bored you spitless. The old woman is not boring, though, I'll grant her that. A fearsome old harridan, and not near as frail as she pretends. When I came to Highgarden to dicker for Margaery's hand, she let her lord son bluster while she asked pointed questions about Joffrey's nature. I praised him to the skies, to be sure . . . whilst my men spread disturbing tales amongst Lord Tyrell's servants. That is how the game is played.

"I also planted the notion of Ser Loras taking the white. Not that I suggested it, that would have been too crude. But men in my party supplied grisly tales about how the mob had killed Ser Preston Greenfield and raped the Lady Lollys, and slipped a few silvers to Lord Tyrell's army of singers to sing of Ryam Redwyne, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. A harp can be as dangerous as a sword, in the right hands.

 

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LP, this type of theory has been raised multiple times before. I am afraid that You are not the first or second or even third one to bring it up.

I somehow remembered that somebody asked GRRM about it and he said that young littlefinger did not get involved in RR events.

So I would agree that this theory is unlikely. Actually I would say it is as unlikely as that Lyanna sent a raven to tell her family about her love adventure but this raven was unluckily killed by a passing falcon or eagle. 

Come back to the story if you do not like GRRM's words, little finger is a love-driven teenager who was badly injured by Brandon due to his mad love in Cat. I would imagine it was pretty hard for him to do something around both physically and mentally. Not to mention it is completely clueless that he has some kind of relationship with Lyanna.

And why would Lyanna send a message since she is secretly eloping with her sweetheart?

So she wanted her family to immediately locate her and drag (or tie) her back home and immediately marry her off to Robert?

What is the point of this message?

Lyanna is very wild and hotheaded and rash, at that moment her head is likely full of Rhaegar's sad song and pretty face, if she was rational enough to remembered send a message to her family, she would not elope.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Wait.

Are you saying Lyanna eloped with Rhaegar during the  wedding celebrations in Riverrun of Cat and Brandon.

Or do you mean Lyanna might have been in Riverrun visiting her good friends Cat and Lysa for the preparations of the wedding of her brother Brandon?

 

An elopement.

It could make sense. Lyanna wouldn't have been the first 14 year-old in history infatuated with a handsome (already married) singer. 

 

Petyr Baelish travelling, badly wounded, in a litter from Riverrun to the Fingers

Rhaegar, his two KGs and Lyanna riding from Riverrun to Dorne.

How could they cross paths?

At the Crossroads Inn?

 

 

She never made it to Riverrun. She was likely on the King's Road heading to the crossroads en route to Riverrun. That's the official story anyway. She was heading to Riverrun for the wedding of Cat and Brandon. 

She disappeared 10 leagues from Harrenhal (last known location), which is very close to where the crossroads inn sits. 

My guess is that she secretly met with KG / Rhaegar at that inn and planned the diversion to Dorne from there. Either at the inn or on the road from the inn south, they were found out by Baelish returning to the Vale. Most likely at the inn around the same time. 

Baelish was wounded yes but not so wounded that he couldn't have sex with Lysa twice prior to his expulsion from Riverrun. He didn't need to be in fighting shape, just traveling shape. 

Rhaegar and Lyanna would both be very easy to spot for someone with a critical eye like Baelish. He also understood the temperaments of the houses to know what was going on and what the potential upside would be for him. 

Knowing the type of person Baelish is, he would have zero concern over hurting Cat, Brandon, Rhaegar, Lyanna or anyone else involved by spinning the worst possible story he could of the pair. 

It has to be said that without Baelish, none of the events that have transpired between the major houses would have taken place. All the main driving points in Westeros are his creation or the consequences of his creations. Truly if ever a shaper existed in Westeros it would be Baelish. Almost all others are simply responding to the faults he has engineered. 

 

Some people think that if the major houses knew Lyanna rode off with Rhaegar willingly that they would have raised banners for war anyway. Maybe that's true but I doubt it. I think Hoster Tully may have restrained Brandon and the Starks / Baratheons / Arryns in kind. Demands would be met and war would be averted. Abduction and rape are different though. They are irreconcilable and I'm sure Baelish understood that. 

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I do buy the notion of tricksters and their poison words being behind many terrible events in the story. I cannot buy that it's a map for every major conflict in the story. The political ones, certainly. Some of the worst ones, yes. Probably more really terrifying ones to do with the Others, almost assuredly. 

But I have one key argument against Baelish being behind this R+L conflict. It is super fuckin weak. Amateur hour weak. Baelish caused everything? Maybe it was Bloodraven warging Baelish! 

I mean... The George is a better writer than all this. 

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4 minutes ago, Jon Ice-Eyes said:

I do buy the notion of tricksters and their poison words being behind many terrible events in the story. I cannot buy that it's a map for every major conflict in the story. The political ones, certainly. Some of the worst ones, yes. Probably more really terrifying ones to do with the Others, almost assuredly. 

But I have one key argument against Baelish being behind this R+L conflict. It is super fuckin weak. Amateur hour weak. Baelish caused everything? Maybe it was Bloodraven warging Baelish! 

I mean... The George is a better writer than all this. 

I would argue that Baelish is an atypical example of a person in Westeros. On many levels. 

It's firstly rare to find someone of his lack of nobility with that much intelligence. He's extremely smart and learned which also means he's very analytical. Most men with those gifts in Westeros would be born of nobility and/or military commanders. It's the fantasy equivalent of a software engineer being born from a line of ditch diggers. 

Not only that but he's smart in duality. Meaning he knows when to be generous for his own benefit and when not to be. He has social smarts, political smarts and strategic smarts. That's rare for anyone in Westeros and even rarer in the low born. 

It's also rare to see someone in that position so frowned upon by the nobility. It could be said their looking down on him shaped him so. 

He's just different than everyone else in Westeros on all those levels besides maybe Varys who is eerily similar.

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