Jump to content

(Small) issues with our favorite story


Recommended Posts

I'm not here to bash my favorite series but this can be a mistake in character's "normal" actions or more directly related to the plot or even  The color of someone's shirt in the wrong scene.

For me one huge problem is that Jon Arryn didn't catch littlefinger stealing so much money. I know Tyrion made it evident LF kept the money moving and invested a lot (laundered) but I have always felt since Jon Arryn would have caught on much much sooner. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why would he look for issues?  Petyr was an outstanding customs master in Gulltown.  He understands finance, which it seems very few nobles do.  They regard that and administration as grubby, common jobs.  As long as Robert had his money for tourneys, and trade kept turning over, nobody was looking for the financial shortfall.  I'm not even sure Petyr *was* stealing, he seemed to be trying to apply meritocracy and logic to a feudal system that runs on bribes and nepotism.  Just because he understands how it all works, doesn't mean the people under him do.

Of course, he could also have a nice retirement fund stashed in Braavos...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, SeaWitch said:

Why would he look for issues?  Petyr was an outstanding customs master in Gulltown.  He understands finance, which it seems very few nobles do.  They regard that and administration as grubby, common jobs.  As long as Robert had his money for tourneys, and trade kept turning over, nobody was looking for the financial shortfall.  I'm not even sure Petyr *was* stealing, he seemed to be trying to apply meritocracy and logic to a feudal system that runs on bribes and nepotism.  

Of course, he could also have a nice retirement fund stashed in Braavos...

Bc of the massive amount of money we are talking about. Not to mention the custom officers, tax collectors, and (many) other "money exchangers" all answered directly to the man who employed them.

LF grew up sheep pelt poor. He gets the promotion to gulltown and then his (unlikely) promotion to master of coin. If Jon Arryn appointed him and a few years the vaults start to empty out and the Crown suddenly owes massive debts to many people, imho people would instantly blame the poor guy in charge of a lot of money and even if not I just feel Jon Arryn would have looked one day been like hmm the market is doing well and Robert hasn't had one of his tourneys lately, I'm going to see if we can cut any Unneeded spending and then start going through the physical evidence and when he started to find discrepancies (like Tyrion) it would have only made him dig further as LF was his call. And an up jumped petty lord stealing the crown blind would anger all nobles and make Jon Arryn look very bad and due to his age others would say incapable despite all he did as glue for the realm.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Basically Jon Arryn was to aware of the crown and it's day to day operations to let millions of dragons be excused away with well Robert's been having "too many tourneys"

If you look at Ned's tourney imagine how many of those it would have taken to owe that much to the crown, iron bank, Lannisters, and others. It doesn't add up. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You think Petyr got promoted too high, too fast? And went a bit power-crazy?

Maybe Jon A was getting a bit suspicious.  What a sad thing that he got diverted by Stannis and suspicions of the Lannisters, or he might have discovered something...

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

I'm not here to bash my favorite series but this can be a mistake in character's "normal" actions or more directly related to the plot or even  The color of someone's shirt in the wrong scene.

For me one huge problem is that Jon Arryn didn't catch littlefinger stealing so much money. I know Tyrion made it evident LF kept the money moving and invested a lot (laundered) but I have always felt since Jon Arryn would have caught on much much sooner. 

But he discovered what LF was doing : that appears clearly when Stannis is at the Wall and intervenes during the election of the new lord commander, when he verbaly attacks Janos Slynt about his corruption and the fact he was a man of LF. Before that, at Dragonstone, he made allusions about the fact that he wanted to clean the court (i.e; the Lannister, LF and Varys). That's also why LF and Varys absolutely don't want Stannis on the IT (and Ned choosing Stannis as heir for the IT instead of Renly, and saying it to LF was causing his proper fall). 

LF was surely advised that he risked to be discovered (and who advised him ? Varys, perhaps...) and that was the mobile for him to kill Jon Arryn. Varys had a pawn to poison Jon Arryn, it was Hugh of the Vale : there is no reason for Varys to suggest to Ned Stark that Hugh was the poisoner if he don't believe he was, hoping that Ned will find LF on the way. But, LF didn't use Hugh, he used Lysa. And beated Varys at his own playing. Like he beated him with Joffrey's murder. 

As reader, we tend to see only that Jon Arryn discovered Robert's bastards and the truth about the heirs of the IT, but why the hell LF would want to kill Jon Arryn for that ? That makes no sense ^^

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, GloubieBoulga said:

But he discovered what LF was doing : that appears clearly when Stannis is at the Wall and intervenes during the election of the new lord commander, when he verbaly attacks Janos Slynt about his corruption and the fact he was a man of LF. Before that, at Dragonstone, he made allusions about the fact that he wanted to clean the court (i.e; the Lannister, LF and Varys). That's also why LF and Varys absolutely don't want Stannis on the IT (and Ned choosing Stannis as heir for the IT instead of Renly, and saying it to LF was causing his proper fall). 

LF was surely advised that he risked to be discovered (and who advised him ? Varys, perhaps...) and that was the mobile for him to kill Jon Arryn. Varys had a pawn to poison Jon Arryn, it was Hugh of the Vale : there is no reason for Varys to suggest to Ned Stark that Hugh was the poisoner if he don't believe he was, hoping that Ned will find LF on the way. But, LF didn't use Hugh, he used Lysa. And beated Varys at his own playing. Like he beated him with Joffrey's murder. 

As reader, we tend to see only that Jon Arryn discovered Robert's bastards and the truth about the heirs of the IT, but why the hell LF would want to kill Jon Arryn for that ? That makes no sense ^^

 

Ok but he poisoned Arryn to start a Stark vs. Lannister feud.

As I said even before the small council was at each other's throats I think Jon Arryn was smart enough to have realized what LF was doing and find evidence to prove it. Just my opinion. It has nothing to do with the rest of the small council (even stannis) because it's theft. Jon Arryn would have been morally obligated to get to the bottom of the missing funds. (And I think he "would" have if it weren't necessary for the plot. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, SeaWitch said:

You think Petyr got promoted too high, too fast? And went a bit power-crazy?

Maybe Jon A was getting a bit suspicious.  What a sad thing that he got diverted by Stannis and suspicions of the Lannisters, or he might have discovered something...

 

Yes I absolutely do. 

And yes I understand he got side-tracked but as I've said, in my opinion Arryn would have figured out LF's laundering way before any of the things you mentioned 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

Yes I absolutely do. 

And yes I understand he got side-tracked but as I've said, in my opinion Arryn would have figured out LF's laundering way before any of the things you mentioned 

Sorry, the message ate my ironic smiley.  I was implying that I think JA was side-tracked deliberately.

If Petyr was playing silly buggers with the financials, do you suspect malice or incompetence? Or does he really have the worst gambling problem in Westeros? I cannot think how he hoped/hopes to get away with all of his scheming, unless he has a very secret escape plan.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, SeaWitch said:

Sorry, the message ate my ironic smiley.  I was implying that I think JA was side-tracked deliberately.

If Petyr was playing silly buggers with the financials, do you suspect malice or incompetence? Or does he really have the worst gambling problem in Westeros? I cannot think how he hoped/hopes to get away with all of his scheming, unless he has a very secret escape plan.  

I would say malice but unlike a lot of others it's hard for me to say he's some financial wizard for the reason you stated and what I said about blaming the new and poor guy that happens to completely control the finance department.

But he's certainly ahead of his time and always a forward thinker (buying low/selling high) 

I think that if shit did hit the fan while he was in office his goal was to acquire enough resources/meet enough prominent people to be able to live out his life as comfortable as possible with a pissed off kingdom chasing after you.

But honestly you're right it was necessary for him to get away and it was necessary for Jon Arryn to not reveal or not learn too much info.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only reason I see Tywin letting him have harrenhall is that he didn't have the ability to secure the castle without Lannister help. And he wanted him on a very short leash since he also was made Lord Paramount. Personally I think that is one of the most ridiculous promotions in westori history. God-Tier reward for an envoy to marry a rich noble girl to the king of the 7 kingdoms. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, GloubieBoulga said:

Yes, but why now and why not later or before ?  

 

Because Stannis and Arryn were making common cause - and Arryn was seeking to put Sweetrobin out of the line of fire with Stannis, indicating he thought things were going to kick off.  Lysa is going batshit.  The last thing Petyr wants is King Stannis with Jon Arryn as Hand. The Starks weren't relevant until Robert went North to get Ned. I think Petyr was aiming to be Hand when the Lannisters had been ousted.

...sorry, posted too quickly. I honestly think Lysa told the truth about the letter she sent. The idea was to keep the Starks away from KL, so Ned didn't blunder through all the intricate plots. Which he did.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

I also find it unbelievable Tywin never retaliated vs the iron islands after they burned down the Lannister's fleet. 

As Warden of the West he lead his remaining forces along with the combined might of Robert's Royal Navy, the Arbor's navy and ships from Oldtown.  The Iron Fleet was destroyed at sea and Tywins forces would have been part of the campaigns that laid siege to Old Wyk and Great Wyk, killing thousands of Iron Islanders and forcing the surrender of Balon Greyjoy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, SeaWitch said:

Because Stannis and Arryn were making common cause - and Arryn was seeking to put Sweetrobin out of the line of fire with Stannis, indicating he thought things were going to kick off.  Lysa is going batshit.  The last thing Petyr wants is King Stannis with Jon Arryn as Hand. The Starks weren't relevant until Robert went North to get Ned. I think Petyr was aiming to be Hand when the Lannisters had been ousted.

...sorry, posted too quickly. I honestly think Lysa told the truth about the letter she sent. The idea was to keep the Starks away from KL, so Ned didn't blunder through all the intricate plots. Which he did.

Yes, that's what I wanted to demonstrate :D = ther real reason for LF to kill Jon Arryn is not to provoke a war between Lannister and Stark, but to save his own interest. That's also why I noted that Jon Arryn and Stannis had discovered what he really did.

Accusing the Lannister is - at the beginning -  only the "bonus", the occasion to create a bit confusing situation (confusing for Varys essentially), as we can see when he first intercepts Catelyn at KL. But surely, after viewing Cat and Ned, and above all Sansa, the Stark became preys for him. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Starks were collateral damage, getting shot of the Lannisters was the aim.  I think Petyr was getting in tight with the Tyrells well before this, he was very chummy with Renly.

Sansa is so young in the books, I can't help feeling she is truly a daughter substitute. Mostly. (The ages weird me out generally, though. I can never get used to being older than the parental generation in a book.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, White Ravens said:

As Warden of the West he lead his remaining forces along with the combined might of Robert's Royal Navy, the Arbor's navy and ships from Oldtown.  The Iron Fleet was destroyed at sea and Tywins forces would have been part of the campaigns that laid siege to Old Wyk and Great Wyk, killing thousands of Iron Islanders and forcing the surrender of Balon Greyjoy.

Yeah I guess I just meant in a more "Tywin" way. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, GloubieBoulga said:

Yes, that's what I wanted to demonstrate :D = ther real reason for LF to kill Jon Arryn is not to provoke a war between Lannister and Stark, but to save his own interest. That's also why I noted that Jon Arryn and Stannis had discovered what he really did.

Accusing the Lannister is - at the beginning -  only the "bonus", the occasion to create a bit confusing situation (confusing for Varys essentially), as we can see when he first intercepts Catelyn at KL. But surely, after viewing Cat and Ned, and above all Sansa, the Stark became preys for him. 

I do understand your viewpoint entirely as it may be 100% true. You even have stannis' "scour the court clean" quote. 

All I'm saying is it all came to light much too late. The damage LF did in such a short time period is just gigantic and in my personal opinion Jon Arryn would have more quickly realized something was awry. (Pure fan-fix obviously but Arryn seems wise enough to even hire men to Audit the crown but this is all obviously just my opinion)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with whoever pointed out that the high lords don't take a hands on approach to finance and mostly rely on the gentry to worry about their treasury (unless of course you're a Lannister). But with Jon Arryn it could also have been that he has little understanding of finance or the value of things and so he must feel its better to delegate those matters to someone appears to be more of an expert. It could also be that Littlefinger is running a double entry bookkeeping scheme where he would keep one ledger showing the realm's actual finances for himself but he presents Jon and the Small Council with a false ledger that details the expenses of the kingdom (tourneys, goalers of King's Landing etc) gravely inflated and he skims the difference off for himself. Since Jon isn't a financial guru, he like Ned might have just assumed that the kingdom's debt is all due to Robert's extravagance and that they can't do much except to keep borrowing and increase the national debt. It takes someone with an expert eye in finance who's willing to spend long hours looking through the Crown's many ledgers to figure out the truth of Baelish's embezzment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...