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Did Varys hint that only one of Rhaegars children died?


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I am rereading ACoK and in a Tyrion chapter Varys says: "The Prince is a sentimental man, and he still mourns his sister Elia and her sweet babe"

Varys only mentions one of the children dying not both. I'm not sure if people have noticed that before but I slipped past it on my first two reads. I'm not saying I believe Aegon is alive but this could hint at it 

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There is also another such a hint when Varys specifically discusses Rhaenys as having been cruelly killed while Aegon isn't mentioned.

That's no coincidence.

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Well spotted! The ACoK one – in Tyrion IV – is very easy to search for, as it is the only time GRRM uses the word ‘sentimental’ in the entire book.

The other one Lord Varys mentioned upthread is where Varys tells Ned about Rhaenys and her kitten (Balerion) at the very end of Ned’s final chapter (XV) in AGoT.

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I don't think it is a coincidence. I also think fAegon is fake, but Varys later ends up trying to attach Tyrion to the Aegon cause, and of course there is the famous exchange with a dying Kevin Lannister, so this would be consistent for Varys.

Similarly, if we are looking at really specific language, during the Mountain vs. Red Viper fight, Oberyn chants "You killed her children." but the Mountain correctly only confesses to the murder of one child, Aegon. Because Oberyn was probably talking about Tywin's crime, not the Mountain.

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Interesting, because ever since I read about Aegon and how he may be a Blackfyre and how everyone tries to prove that he is indeed a Targaryen, this quote has been sticking out to me:

Quote

"No," Ned pleaded, his voice cracking. "Varys, gods have mercy, do as you like with me, but leave my daughter out of your schemes. Sansa's no more than a child."

"Rhaenys was a child too. Prince Rhaegar's daughter. A precious little thing, younger than your girls. She had a small black kitten she called Balerion, did you know? I always wondered what happened to him. Rhaenys liked to pretend he was the true Balerion, the Black Dread of old, but I imagine the Lannisters taught her the difference between a kitten and a dragon quick enough, the day they broke down her door."

Eddard XV

aGoT

Varys doesn't mention little dead Aegon.

7 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Maybe, but Rhaenys was ~ 3 so not a "babe" anymore. 

True, but Rickon is 3 years old and later turns 4, but people also call him a babe. Maybe there is a standard in ASOIAF for what is considered a baby that is different from ours?

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While we don't know anything about young Aegon the picture Varys points of Rhaenys certainly indicates that she may have been a sweet babe. The whole kitten story is pretty touching.

And we do know that Rhaenys is the only child of Elia Doran and Arianne actually ever saw. Arianne remembers that she held her once, presumably during a visit in KL or on Dragonstone, or a visit of Elia (and Rhaegar) in Sunspear. We don't know if any Martell aside from Lewyn was at Harrenhal but we also don't know whether Rhaegar and Elia brought Rhaenys with them.

But it makes some sense to assume that Doran would be grieving more about this sister and niece he did know than the nephew he never saw. He sure would be pissed that Aegon was dead, too, not to mention the manner of his death, but the pain is usually much harder when you lose a close relative you actually had a connection with.

Keep also in mind that Varys mentioning Rhaenys twice might also be a strong hint that he regrets having not saved her, too. If there was a baby swap then Elia and Varys most likely both believed that only Rhaegar's son was in mortal danger from the rebels, not his daughter or wife.

Not even during the Dance of the Dragons did the two factions target the women and daughters of their enemies. Rhaenyra allowed Alicent and Helaena to live, and nothing indicates she intended to kill Jaehaera had she been able to lay hands on her. In fact, the gruesome murder of Prince Maelor certainly wasn't anything she (or any of the Blacks) wanted to happen. That was an insane mob.

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3 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

Interesting, because ever since I read about Aegon and how he may be a Blackfyre and how everyone tries to prove that he is indeed a Targaryen, this quote has been sticking out to me:

Varys doesn't mention little dead Aegon.

I think this quote really relies on the context of the conversation. Varys is trying to persuade Ned to plead guilty to protect his daughters who are both in KL (specifically Sansa as Arya got away). It makes more sense for him to bring up Rhaenys rather than both she and Aegon because it's another situation where a highborn daughter was killed by the Lannisters. 

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13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Keep also in mind that Varys mentioning Rhaenys twice might also be a strong hint that he regrets having not saved her, too. If there was a baby swap then Elia and Varys most likely both believed that only Rhaegar's son was in mortal danger from the rebels, not his daughter or wife

I would go with this interpretation as well.  It would be more difficult to switch Rhaegar's daughter given her age.  It makes sense that Rhaegar and Elia (and Varys) would take steps to get Aegon out of harms way; since he thought he was the PWIP and critical to the prophecy (if we are to believe Dany's vision in the HoU).  Whether Aegon is the PWIP or not, doesn't matter.  It's what Rhaegar believed and I don't see him taking chances with the rebels or Aerys.  

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12 hours ago, ThePrinceThatKnewNothing said:

I am rereading ACoK and in a Tyrion chapter Varys says: "The Prince is a sentimental man, and he still mourns his sister Elia and her sweet babe"

Varys only mentions one of the children dying not both. I'm not sure if people have noticed that before but I slipped past it on my first two reads. I'm not saying I believe Aegon is alive but this could hint at it 

The omissions are worth noting as well as oddities that only show up once. Example -  The Kindly Man's use of the term dark angel.  The holes on the page as Sam would say.  I think there is enough to question assumptions about Aegon's legitimacy.

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Notice that Varys' "slip" is perfectly compatible with the fAegon theory: if Young Griff is a "mummer's dragon", Varys and Illyrio's pawn, then it wouldn't hurt to every now and then say something that could make people question whether Rhaegar's firstborn son was really dead dead. A low-yield, but also no-risk investment.

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3 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Notice that Varys' "slip" is perfectly compatible with the fAegon theory: if Young Griff is a "mummer's dragon", Varys and Illyrio's pawn, then it wouldn't hurt to every now and then say something that could make people question whether Rhaegar's firstborn son was really dead dead. A low-yield, but also no-risk investment.

Agree

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9 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

during the Mountain vs. Red Viper fight, Oberyn chants "You killed her children." but the Mountain correctly only confesses to the murder of one child, Aegon.

Right - because Amory Lorch killed Rhaenys. Poor Oberon! He was so intent on getting a confession of Tywin Lannister's role in ordering the killings that he forgot the length of Gregor's arms - and his unnatural vitality and strength. (I like the theory that the Red Viper managed to slip poison into Tywin's food or drink, and that was why Tywin was on the privy when Tyrion found him. And also why his corpse smelled so awful. In her training with the Waif, Arya learns that

Quote

"This is a crueler poison, but tasteless and odorless, hence easier to hide."The tears of Lys, men call it. Dissolved in wine or water, it eats at a man's bowels and belly, and kills as a sickness of those parts. Smell." Arya sniffed and smelled nothing.

(A feast for crows, Cat of the Canals)

Sorry for the digression!

 

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8 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:
  Quote

"No," Ned pleaded, his voice cracking. "Varys, gods have mercy, do as you like with me, but leave my daughter out of your schemes. Sansa's no more than a child."

"Rhaenys was a child too. Prince Rhaegar's daughter. A precious little thing, younger than your girls. She had a small black kitten she called Balerion, did you know? I always wondered what happened to him. Rhaenys liked to pretend he was the true Balerion, the Black Dread of old, but I imagine the Lannisters taught her the difference between a kitten and a dragon quick enough, the day they broke down her door."

Eddard XV

aGoT

I thought Varys was comparing one daughter to another, nothing more than that.

16 hours ago, ThePrinceThatKnewNothing said:

 

I am rereading ACoK and in a Tyrion chapter Varys says: "The Prince is a sentimental man, and he still mourns his sister Elia and her sweet babe"

Varys only mentions one of the children dying not both. I'm not sure if people have noticed that before but I slipped past it on my first two reads. I'm not saying I believe Aegon is alive but this could hint at it 

 

Nice catch!

Whatever Varys and Illyrio are up to, it'll be explosive.

Aegon is presently conquering territories in Westeros, Dany in Essos. 

 

Still, why give the dragon eggs to Dany and not Aegon?

 

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2 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

I thought Varys was comparing one daughter to another, nothing more than that.

That he could also be doing.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Keep also in mind that Varys mentioning Rhaenys twice might also be a strong hint that he regrets having not saved her, too. If there was a baby swap then Elia and Varys most likely both believed that only Rhaegar's son was in mortal danger from the rebels, not his daughter or wife.

Not to mention that should King's Landing fall, there is a benefit for the rebels to keep Rhaenys alive; the Targaryens will have allies in Westeros and one way to get them to calm down and to get the support of some of them, is by marrying Rhaenys to one of Robert's future sons or to Robert himself, as it would not only make a marriage alliance and give the oppertunity for peace, but it would also make Robert's grandchildren, or his children, half-Targaryens and thusly give them a more "legit" claim to the throne and it might calm Dorne and some the Targaryen allies down a bit.

The same thing happened after the Dance of the Dragons, where Aegon and Jaehaera were made to marry one another as it would ease both the Blacks faction and the Greens faction. It would ease the Blacks, as Rhaenyra's blood was finally on the throne, and it would ease the Greens, as Aegon's blood through his daughter would eventually be on the throne.

Who's to say that a similar outcome wouldn't have been made should Rhaenys have been spared?

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34 minutes ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

Who's to say that a similar outcome wouldn't have been made should Rhaenys have been spared?

Indeed. And THAT would have cut out the Lannisters. Which is probably why Tywin ordered all the remaining Targaryons killed.

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4 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Still, why give the dragon eggs to Dany and not Aegon?

Because everyone would think Aegon a pretender, an imposter and Illyrio the aid if Illyrio gave eggs to Aegon. If Viserys conquers Westeros together with Aegon, and Daenerys hands Aegon an egg (rather than Illyrio), then both known Targaryen survivors are lending credibility to Aegon being Rhaegar's son.

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