My take on the Tower of Joy

[theMADdestScientist_]

Why the Kingsguard fought against Ned? it's a question often asked, and many of us assume they were following orders, which i believe to be the case.

But i normally try to see the entire picture, something a little more complex. What i'm about to write was probably not in the thoughts of the Kingsguards, they were only following their orders, as i've just said. But it will be interesting to point this out.

By the time Ned arrives at the TOJ, Ned is Robert's right-hand man, and Robert was pleased with the fact that Aegon and Rhaenys were dead. But the thing here is this: Elia Martell was killed as well, and Robert didn't blink an eye.

That's the actual tragedy, do people really think that Robert will be easy on Lyanna(if she survives childbirth) when he finds out that she went with Rhaegar and had his child? Ned made it clear: If someone treats Robert with honor, he gives them honor, but when they don't treat him with honor, he gives them the very same thing. Ned knew that Robert would have killed Cersei, Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen(and Jaime) if he knew about the Twincest. Lyanna would be as dead as Jon if Robert finds out about what really happened.

But people tend to think: "Oh, but Robert loves her so much". No, Robert loved the girl that was kidnapped and raped, he didn't love the girl who horned him like Cersei.

If it weren't for the Kingsguards, Robert would have found out, because Ned brought six companions with him, and besides Howland Reed, who was Lyanna's friend, the others lost way too much in this war started by Lyanna's affair with Rhaegar.

How will Martyn Cassel, William Dustin, Mark Ryswell and Ethan Glover(who spent a year imprisoned in the Red Keep) react when they find Lyanna with Rhaegar's newborn son while pleading with Ned to protect him? they will tell Robert out of rage, or perhaps, they would do even worse things if Ned don't stop them.

No, not every northman loves the Starks to death. Think about Rickard Karstark, who fought for Ned against the Targaryens, who fought for Robb against the Lannisters. He was loyal, but Rickard gave up on Robb after what happened to his sons, and what happened to his sons was thanks to the war he was fighting for Robb.

So, yes, i believe the Kingsguards actually saved Jon and Lyanna's honor, because Ned and Howland Reed were the only ones who survived the fight, and thus, learned what was in the tower and decided to keep everything that happened there a secret. Howland Reed was Lyanna's friend, but the same could not be said of Martyn Cassel, William Dustin, Mark Ryswell and Ethan Glover, people who fought against the Targaryens, people that certainly lost a lot because of it.

As a Arya once noted:

Quote

Arya heard sadness in his voice; he did not often speak of his father, or of the brother and sister who had died before she was born.

There's too much dishonor there, that's why Ned does not talk about it. It's not simply because of R+L=J.

 

I don't think the Kingsguards really had all of this in mind, i believe they were just following their orders. But, they might very well have saved Jon as much as Ned did, and Lyanna's honor as well, by killing most of the northman. They would have saved Lyanna's life as well, had she survived.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

A little off topic but I always thought IF Lyanna did run off with Rhaegar and wasn't kid napped then she kind of lead Robert on. I mean at any point through letters or them seeing each other at Harrenhall did Lyanna ever tell Robert "Hey your swell and all but I really don't want to marry you for whatever it's worth."

 

[SeaWitch]

Lyanna had no choice and no say.  The marriage was arranged between families, it would be her father negotiating with either Robert or his guardian, Jon Arryn.  She was probably informed at some point in the proceedings, but there wouldn't have been any consultation of her wishes or need of her consent.

(I did a whole thesis on the development of marriage. Ragemaking.)

[Adam Yozza]

I'm not all that convinced. Ned chose those men to go with him based on loyalty more than ability, so I'd wager that they were trustworthy.

[kissdbyfire]

5 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

I'm not all that convinced. Ned chose those men to go with him based on loyalty more than ability, so I'd wager that they were trustworthy.

It seems those men were close friends, and I don't care what others may think, the Starks do inspire loyalty. Not only that but it was war, and shit happens. 

[lyannaisalive]

6 hours ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

Why the Kingsguard fought against Ned? it's a question often asked, and many of us assume they were following orders, which i believe to be the case.

But i normally try to see the entire picture, something a little more complex. What i'm about to write was probably not in the thoughts of the Kingsguards, they were only following their orders, as i've just said. But it will be interesting to point this out.

By the time Ned arrives at the TOJ, Ned is Robert's right-hand man, and Robert was pleased with the fact that Aegon and Rhaenys were dead. But the thing here is this: Elia Martell was killed as well, and Robert didn't blink an eye.

That's the actual tragedy, do people really think that Robert will be easy on Lyanna(if she survives childbirth) when he finds out that she went with Rhaegar and had his child? Ned made it clear: If someone treats Robert with honor, he gives them honor, but when they don't treat him with honor, he gives them the very same thing. Ned knew that Robert would have killed Cersei, Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen(and Jaime) if he knew about the Twincest. Lyanna would be as dead as Jon if Robert finds out about what really happened.

But people tend to think: "Oh, but Robert loves her so much". No, Robert loved the girl that was kidnapped and raped, he didn't love the girl who horned him like Cersei.

If it weren't for the Kingsguards, Robert would have found out, because Ned brought six companions with him, and besides Howland Reed, who was Lyanna's friend, the others lost way too much in this war started by Lyanna's affair with Rhaegar.

How will Martyn Cassel, William Dustin, Mark Ryswell and Ethan Glover(who spent a year imprisoned in the Red Keep) react when they find Lyanna with Rhaegar's newborn son while pleading with Ned to protect him? they will tell Robert out of rage, or perhaps, they would do even worse things if Ned don't stop them.

No, not every northman loves the Starks to death. Think about Rickard Karstark, who fought for Ned against the Targaryens, who fought for Robb against the Lannisters. He was loyal, but Rickard gave up on Robb after what happened to his sons, and what happened to his sons was thanks to the war he was fighting for Robb.

So, yes, i believe the Kingsguards actually saved Jon and Lyanna's honor, because Ned and Howland Reed were the only ones who survived the fight, and thus, learned what was in the tower and decided to keep everything that happened there a secret. Howland Reed was Lyanna's friend, but the same could not be said of Martyn Cassel, William Dustin, Mark Ryswell and Ethan Glover, people who fought against the Targaryens, people that certainly lost a lot because of it.

As a Arya once noted:

There's too much dishonor there, that's why Ned does not talk about it. It's not simply because of R+L=J.

 

I don't think the Kingsguards really had all of this in mind, i believe they were just following their orders. But, they might very well have saved Jon as much as Ned did, and Lyanna's honor as well, by killing most of the northman. They would have saved Lyanna's life as well, had she survived.

The concept of them inadvertently saving them is something I can agree with. But a couple of disagreements. First Ned took those men because of their loyalty, he could have taken any amount of men, but chose them specifically. They weren't at war because lyanna ran off with raeghar. Sure it set things in motion but the catalyst was the mad king murdering the Stark lord and heir and demanding the head of Ned. This wasn't a war started over love. Also had Lyanna survived and Robert wanted them dead, it would have been war. You have to realize that when Ned left kings landing he was enraged at Robert. He wanted his sister and bastard or not Ned wasn't going to hand over Lyanna. It be interesting to see what he would do with Jon but certainly he would not budge on Lyanna. But I agree that possibly saved the lives of many.  

[snow is the man]

Maybe. But I truly believe it was just about their honor. Kingsguard don't run or something like that. They were ordered to stay there and protect her. I think it was more about them following orders

[Wolfgirly]

Even though Rhaegar died, the KG stayed at the Tower of Joy, protecting Lyanna who was heavily pregnant. They wouldn't even let Lyanna's brother go and see her. They didn't want anyone to discover anything. It feels as if the KG did a terrible job as they were so eaily overcome by a gang of youths, unless something amazing occurred.As often the case in this "ice and fire" world, pretty weird things occur that don't make sense.  

[Crona]

I guess I could see that. But, my interpretation was they were ordered to stay and didn't think of anything beyond that. Also, maybe they just didn't care and were using those orders stay behind, and didn't expect to die when Ned came.

[Adam Yozza]

2 hours ago, Wolfgirly said:

Even though Rhaegar died, the KG stayed at the Tower of Joy, protecting Lyanna who was heavily pregnant. They wouldn't even let Lyanna's brother go and see her. They didn't want anyone to discover anything. It feels as if the KG did a terrible job as they were so eaily overcome by a gang of youths, unless something amazing occurred.As often the case in this "ice and fire" world, pretty weird things occur that don't make sense.  

Given that it was a seven on three fight it's not that hard to believe, especially when you consider that those seven were highly trained and experienced men. Also, referring to them as youths is a bit presumptuous. Ned and Howland were young sure, but Martyn Cassel is old Ser Rodrik's older brother so he must have been in his thirties when he fought against the KG.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

@theMADdestScientist_

I generally disagree with your conclusion, but I like your line of thinking.

First, I want to make sure I am characterizing your argument correctly. If I'm not mistaken, you are suggesting that:

• Rhaegar assumed he would lose, or at least assumed it was possible
• He ordered 3 of his best fighters, including Arthur Dayne, to stay behind at the ToJ in the event of his loss
• Their mission was to save Lyanna's life (and her baby)
• Her life would be in danger because Robert would become king and kill her if he found out she "betrayed" him
• So the specific orders, presumably, were to at least kill anyone who would bring that news to Robert
• even though they couldn't kill everyone, they left Ned and HR for last, knowing they were the smallest threats to Lyanna

First off, if their purpose is simply to protect Lyanna's secret, that seems stupid. Her honor/life is only in danger if Rhaegar loses the war. And even then, it seems like a bit of a stretch that Robert would literally have her killed, at a huge political cost. This does not seem like a good reason to keep 3 of your best fighters away from the battle at the Trident. For all we know, Arthur Dayne alone could have swung that outcome in the other direction by just killing Robert before he even gets to Rhaegar. Additionally, Robert didn't even declare himself King until after killing Rhaegar if I remember correctly, so again, anticipating that Robert would first become king, then kill Lyanna is a stretch.

And then you are kind of assuming that the 3 KG have enough knowledge of the politics of their opponents at ToJ to prioritize who to kill in the moment. And you are assuming that they would prioritize eliminating the biggest threats to Lyanna over simply winning the fight.

Again, I like your line of thinking. It is always good to question character motivations and the events of the rebellion in general.

Personally, I think the 3 KG were trying to help Rhaegar fulfill prophecy. I think they were waiting until the birth of Lyanna's child and then had orders to burn down the tower with Lyanna inside as a sacrifice, maybe in an attempt to hatch dragons in an event similar to Summerhall, where Rhaegar was born. Ned somehow brought down an entire tower by himself. Did he bring a bunch of demolition tools with him to the ToJ? I'm betting no... but some Targaryen wildfire went missing in the rebellion, and we have seen the Tower of the Hand brought down by wildfire. And this would explain why the KG fought Ned in the first place. They had orders to kill Lyanna.

LOL, so my theory is basically the exact opposite of your theory  

[kissdbyfire]

@40 Thousand Skeletons, sooooooo... the KG at the ToJ had orders to kill Lyanna. So, they just hang out there for gods know how long, until the moment Ned & the gang show up because... they're huge procrastinators? 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

@40 Thousand Skeletons, sooooooo... the KG at the ToJ had orders to kill Lyanna. So, they just hang out there for gods know how long, until the moment Ned & the gang show up because... they're huge procrastinators? 

LOL, no, like I said in my comment, I think they were waiting until the birth of Lyanna's child. And I also think that Lyanna was in the process of giving birth when the fight happened. So basically, Ned and the gang showed up just in time! Because Lyanna was the sacrifice, not the child.

[kissdbyfire]

7 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

LOL, no, like I said in my comment, I think they were waiting until the birth of Lyanna's child. And I also think that Lyanna was in the process of giving birth when the fight happened. So basically, Ned and the gang showed up just in time! Because Lyanna was the sacrifice, not the child.

Gotcha!

 

[Prof. Cecily]

7 hours ago, SeaWitch said:

Lyanna had no choice and no say.  The marriage was arranged between families, it would be her father negotiating with either Robert or his guardian, Jon Arryn.  She was probably informed at some point in the proceedings, but there wouldn't have been any consultation of her wishes or need of her consent.

(I did a whole thesis on the development of marriage. Ragemaking.)

I didn't see a link...and would like to.

I'm not entirely sure I understood the OP.

Could you give us a briefer version of your idea, @theMADdestScientist_?

There are many things about the ToJ that puzzle me and I'd like to understand your take on it.

[Targaryen Restoration]

I think it is just as likely that Ned got there in the nick of time to stop the KG from killing the cursed child, whoever that child might be.  Aerys would do everything he can to eliminate every possible claimant who could threaten his dynasty, even if that child was a bastard. 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

6 hours ago, Targaryen Restoration said:

I think it is just as likely that Ned got there in the nick of time to stop the KG from killing the cursed child, whoever that child might be.  Aerys would do everything he can to eliminate every possible claimant who could threaten his dynasty, even if that child was a bastard. 

So you think the KG were acting on Aerys's orders? And Rhaegar's best friend, Arthur Dayne, was working against him? And the KG didn't just kill pregnant Lyanna for some reason?

[Wolfgirly]

No! The Kings Guard were there at Tower to protect Lyanna and the baby, as Rhaegar ordered them to do even though he died and the guards still knew that. Imho Lyanna and Rhaegar were married.

[Prof. Cecily]

7 hours ago, Targaryen Restoration said:

I think it is just as likely that Ned got there in the nick of time to stop the KG from killing the cursed child, whoever that child might be.  Aerys would do everything he can to eliminate every possible claimant who could threaten his dynasty, even if that child was a bastard. 

That's an interesting thought.

Do you think the king had given the KG secret instructions back in KL?

[devilish]

Let analyse the two main protagonists in the game ie Rhaegar and Ned

Out of 7 KG 3 are left guarding the tower of joy while another 3 are taken to the battle of the trident. The royal family were left with just 1 KG to protect them ie Jamie Lannister.

That’s statistic is quite significant especially when taking into context.

The KG were pretty much inside Rhaegar’s pockets. There’s no other explanation that can justify why some of the best and most loyal swordsmen in Aerys court ended up defending a rebel’s sister and her bastard instead of their king

We know that Aerys had little love for Elia and her children. In matter of fact he threatened the Martells of hurting her if they don’t commit themselves to war. We also know that Rhaegar was planning to usurp the throne which means that his wife and children would end up in imminent danger. Common sense would say, that Rhaegar would make plans to take Elia and her children out of KL to avoid Aery’s rage. Instead the crown prince diverted all resources to defend his lover and bastard. Were Elia and her children set to be sacrificed to give Rhaegar a valid casus belli to wage war against his father? After all, kinslaying is one red line that even the likes of Roose Bolton, Tywin Lannister and Randyll Tarly are terrified to cross

Which lead us to some educated guesses

Rhaegar saw Elia and her children as dispensable.

He was banking on Aerys going nuts by keeping his promises on hurting Elia and the children.

He saw Lyanna as a centre piece of a new world order. Which makes sense both from a prophetic POV (its crazy but Rhaegar believed that promise) and from a political POV. Lyanna held the key to the North, the Riverlands (her brother was going to marry a Tully) and the Vale (Jon Arryn wife is a Tully). Elia’s death would infuriate Dorne + most of the other houses who see Kinslaying as a grievous act which is cursed by the gods. Maekar struggled to rule after that and unlike Aerys he was a decent king

Ned’s decision making is equally strange

He went to Dorne (ie enemy territory) not with an army but with a small group of soldiers

The people he chose weren’t particularly known for their sword fighting. The Greatjon wasn’t there for example and I am pretty sure that Robert himself would have wanted to be part of that fight if given a say.

That suggest 3 things ie Ned had an idea of what to expect, he also knew that time was of an essence (hence why we kicked caution to the wind) and he made sure to surround himself with people whom he could trust.

Taking that in account I think

Rhaegar saw JS as a centre piece of his strategy irrespective whether the crown prince lived or died/ who sits on the iron throne

He took Lyanna and her unborn son to a desolate and therefore safe place, while leaving her with people he could trust ie great swordsmen who were in his pockets.

Someone must have leaked the information to Ned.

The two parties met. Ned wanted Lyanna safe and the war to end. The KG wanted Jon safe and the war to continue (possibly by taking the boy to Essos and lure the GC to join the fight).  Someone had to lose.

The ending is quite ironic. Jon Snow even as a Blackfyre would have been a great alternative to Joffrey

a- he had the potential to lure the GC to his cause.
b- Being Lyanna's daughter, he is possibly the only candidate for the IT that the North are willing to bend their knee to
c- he has more Targ blood in him then Renly, Stannis and Joffrey)
d- The Tyrells would have had an option to Joffrey and Stannis (one is a monster, the other is married to someone who has an equal legitimacy to the Reach and have fought in favour rather then against the sour king)