My take on the Tower of Joy

[Dorian Martell's son]

 

On 5/31/2017 at 0:56 PM, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Thanks  

if you really want to see all the shit BR has done, just follow the link in my signature and waste 10 hours of your life reading my grand theory  

Of course... it is all baseless tinfoil, so I'm not sure it is worth reading. It was definitely worth my time coming up with and writing over 26,000 words of baseless tinfoil, but I'm weird like that  

 

On 5/31/2017 at 1:02 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Course he does! That little time-travelling skinchanging little

 

Bloodraven is the author of the books. GRRM is you will, and he is extremely bored stuck in a tree, so he skinchanges everything. the pig that killed bob, Ser payne,  Joff, cersei, the others, everything. Boredom is a bitch 

[kissdbyfire]

 

 

4 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

You are mistaken,

No, you are!

 

4 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

she is not referring to the "year" of the war, but the first "year" of their marriage. And sure, let's carefully examine the relevant parts:

It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign.

So that first part is simply stating that Cat was told Ned had fathered a bastard in the first year of their marriage. And this is already more ambiguous than it seems, because it is technically possible that Ned did father a bastard via the fisherman's daughter who we have never met, and Cat actually heard a rumor about that bastard. But ignore that if you want. What is more important is the interpretation of the next line:

He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun.

 

Sure, I agree she is thinking about the first year of her marriage. The thing is, the first year of her marriage is the year of the war. 

And you should have left the next lines of the second quote:

Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs.

 

4 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

This is the crux of the issue. When she refers to "that year", she is very specifically talking about the first year of their marriage, the year in which Ned purportedly fathered a bastard and the year in which she heard about the rumor of said bastard. Just pretend for a moment that they ended up spending the first 5 years of their marriage apart. That sentence would still be perfectly acceptable and correctly written. She wouldn't have thought to herself, for example:

He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent the first 5 years of their marriage apart, ...

She wouldn't think that, because the other 4 years are irrelevant, extraneous information in the context of that statement. The only chunk of time that matters is the period in which Ned was ostensibly horny and physically far away from Cat resulting in getting a girl pregnant.

So although the language is misleading, it is accurate whether they spent just 1 year apart in total or 5 years or 10 years or 37 years.

I don't think the language is misleading at all. But let me ask you one thing, when did Ned get it on w/ the fisherman's daughter and where is the kid?

[ravenous reader]

4 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

if someone can figure out where and when Jon was conceived. Conceived, not born.

Even today, the way estimating date of conception works, aside from using technology such as ultrasound scans, is by 'back-dating' from the date of the baby's birth and/or counting forward from the last known menstrual period of the woman.  Can you figure out either of those in Lyanna's case?

Barring those avenues, you could always try to narrow down opportunities she may have had to have sexual encounters, both consensual and non-consensual (which greatly expands the field of possibilities), with a number of candidate men; which I'm sure you can appreciate is a most nebulous affair!

(Assuming Lyanna is in fact the mother, of course, which is by no means certain!)

4 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Maybe one day Martin will clarify what happened when

As it turns out Puppy, and this may surprise you, I am more cynical about this than you!  

 

7 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

We don't know that it's only Targaryen genes that "count" and that is a huge subject of debate. At a minimum, there are obviously non-Targaryen genes that allow for things like skinchanging, which is quite similar to riding a dragon. As for Lyanna being a skinchanger, there is a small but convincing amount of evidence that Lyanna and Brandon were both skinchangers. They are described as "centaurs" and according to Ned both of them had too much "wolf's blood".

Hi 'sweetest peter'!  

Could there be a connection between the following two passages..?

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Arya II

"Needle wouldn't break," Arya said defiantly, but her voice betrayed her words.

"It has a name, does it?" Her father sighed. "Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. 'The wolf blood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave." Arya heard sadness in his voice; he did not often speak of his father, or of the brother and sister who had died before she was born. "Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her."

"Lyanna was beautiful," Arya said, startled. Everybody said so. It was not a thing that was ever said of Arya.

 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"I thought the greenseers were the wizards of the children," Bran said. "The singers, I mean."

"In a sense. Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers."

Bran did not understand, so he asked the Reeds. "Do you like to read books, Bran?" Jojen asked him.

What does it mean to 'be chosen to receive the gift'?  At first glance, this would appear to indicate receiving an impressive genetic endowment conferring magical ability.  On closer inspection, however, the phrase glimmers in a more sinister fashion, particularly in light of GRRM' s wordplay around the word 'gift,' which I've pointed out means 'poison' in German, dovetailing with that connotation as laid out by GRRM in euphemistic idioms such as 'All Euron's gifts are poisoned,' or 'giving the gift of mercy' as delivered by Arya to the supplicants in the House of Black and White, or the 'boon' (basically a synonym for 'gift') requested by Luwin of Osha at the heart tree when she 'leaves him to the gods.'  

Thus, 'being chosen' implies being chosen to die -- and not any kind of death.  Being 'marked' implies being marked for ritual sacrifice by another -- as a marksman might target his prey in his sights.  

(ETA:   Whether by inadvertent folly or deliberate malice, Rhaegar essentially 'marked' the wolfmaid for death when he 'chose' her as the Queen of Love and Beauty, crowning her with that thorny wreath, 'blue as the eyes of death.')

These sinister undertones are strongly suggested by the disappearance of Jojen, for example, one of those who was supposedly marked by his mossy-green eyes for an early death, which many have interpreted to imply his sacrifice by the singers in order to provide the requisite bloody 'weirwood bole' facilitating Bran's 'wedding' to the trees (the so-called 'Jojen-paste' theory, which I have come to accept, albeit with sad reluctance). The grisly truth of the matter is that accessing the 'weirnet' -- which is just another way of saying 'forging Lightbringer' (as we've been deducing on @LmL's 'Weirwood Compendium' threads) -- therefore is contingent upon the sacrifice of another.  

Seen in this light, the phrase 'not robust for this world' is a rather facetious way of accounting for the murder of the victim.  Granted, Jojen was not robust considering his childhood illness; however, any illness he may have once had had no bearing on the reason for his death, given that he was in all likelihood killed for the 'gift' of his blood in a blood ritual sacrifice.  

Likewise, perhaps we may extrapolate to the case of the 'gift of the wolf blood' which has the consequence of leading those thus 'gifted' to an early grave.  Again, perhaps this is not a case of the wolf blood compromising the bearer by intrinsically spurring him or her on to foolish action, but extrinsically via another covetous party who has a vested interest in obtaining that wolf blood for their own purposes, and who thus lures the wolf to his or her death under false pretenses; i.e. a trickster fools the wolf -- hence, putting an ironic spin on 'gallant fool'.  Symbolically, I could well imagine a scenario in which Lyanna's blood like Jojen's was sought after for use in a Lightbringer forging ritual of some kind -- which may have entailed something more nefarious than merely the double entendre of 'sexy swordplay'.  

Analogously, Brandon and Rickard's death scene displays several elements of a Lightbringer forging in which among other things precious wolf's blood is spilled (see also Bran's vision of the captive sacrificed at the heart tree by the white-haired lady, who being white-haired might be tipping us off to the identity of a dragon perpetrator like Aerys or Dany).  In fact, the way Rickard is 'roasted' by a dragon smelting his armor is reminiscent of both a sword forging in general, and more specifically of the similar death of Viserys by molten-gold crowning (which as I've argued on your thread was one of the blood sacrifices, as well as Dany's 'treasons for blood', facilitating the birth of the dragons, or at least his golden-flamed cream-and-gold dragon-namesake, Viserion).

Quote

"When the fire was blazing, Brandon was brought in. His hands were chained behind his back, and around his neck was a wet leathern cord attached to a device the king had brought from Tyrosh. His legs were left free, though, and his longsword was set down just beyond his reach.

"The pyromancers roasted Lord Rickard slowly, banking and fanning that fire carefully to get a nice even heat. His cloak caught first, and then his surcoat, and soon he wore nothing but metal and ashes. Next he would start to cook, Aerys promised . . . unless his son could free him. Brandon tried, but the more he struggled, the tighter the cord constricted around his throat. In the end he strangled himself.

"As for Lord Rickard, the steel of his breastplate turned cherry-red before the end, and his gold melted off his spurs and dripped down into the fire. I stood at the foot of the Iron Throne in my white armor and white cloak, filling my head with thoughts of Cersei. After, Gerold Hightower himself took me aside and said to me, 'You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.' That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree."

"Aerys . . . " Catelyn could taste bile at the back of her throat. The story was so hideous she suspected it had to be true. "Aerys was mad, the whole realm knew it, but if you would have me believe you slew him to avenge Brandon Stark . . . "

"I made no such claim. The Starks were nothing to me. I will say, I think it passing odd that I am loved by one for a kindness I never did, and reviled by so many for my finest act.

By the way, what is this 'kindness I never did' to which Jaime is referring?  And who is the 'one who loves him' under a mistaken assumption?

Quote

And most importantly, Lyanna was probably the Knight of the Laughing Tree at the Harrenhal tourney based on the story from Meera. If a 14-year-old girl can defeat several fully grown men at jousting, it is extremely likely she is a skinchanger and was telepathically connected to her horse, allowing her to ride perfectly. Keep in mind that jousting is a very size-dependent competition. The more mass you have, the harder you hit your opponent and the harder you are to knock off your horse. That's why Little Walder (the big one) defeats Big Walder (the little one) at jousting, even though Big Walder rides better.

Recently, I saw an interesting theory on the 'heretic' side positing that Lyanna may have skinchanged the opponents' horses, driving them into an uncontrollable tizzy, akin to Loras Tyrell outwitting Gregor Clegane and his stallion with the grey mare in heat.

[Wolfgirly]

9 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Well yeah, he might have been in love with her. But he is trying to fulfill the Azor Ahai Reborn prophecy, and the legend of Azor Ahai is specifically mainly about sacrificing the woman he loved. If it means stopping the Others, I think Rhaegar would have been more than willing to sacrifice Lyanna.

This doesn't make sense at all. He loved her and was making plans. He planned to make changes (ovethrow his mad father) and hold a council meeting. I'm certain if he survived and avoided/killed the maniac Robert at the Tridant, he would've returned to Lyanna just in time to see his newborn son.  

[Clegane'sPup]

36 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Even today, the way estimating date of conception works, aside from using technology such as ultrasound scans, is by 'back-dating' from the date of the baby's birth and/or counting forward from the last known menstrual period of the woman.  Can you figure out either of those in Lyanna's case?

Barring those avenues, you could always try to narrow down opportunities she may have had to have sexual encounters, both consensual and non-consensual (which greatly expands the field of possibilities), with a number of candidate men; which I'm sure you can appreciate is a most nebulous affair!

(Assuming Lyanna is in fact the mother, of course, which is by no means certain!)

4 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Maybe one day Martin will clarify what happened when

As it turns out Puppy, and this may surprise you, I am more cynical about this than you!  

dag nabbit no one ever gives me credit for all my hard work Actually I can't say no one, cause occasionally someone says thanks or agrees.

On the silly side think about this, Jon is supposedly 8-9 moons or is that months older than Dany. Roberts Rebellion lasted close to a year. Was that 10, 11 or 12 moons (months)?

Awww, Puppy, I like.

Seriously though, given all the speculation, when did Lyanna do the wild thawg with Rhaegar? It doesn't add up. That is why I opened my post with

Quote

Each time I try to figure out Robert’s Rebblion, Eddards travels and Jon Snow’s birth I can’t come up with a satisfactory conclusion. The whole thing seems to be purposely written wacky. I doesn’t help that some material was included in the app & world book (neither of which I own)

I'm thinkin' given the quotes from Cat, Lyanna had to have been doing the wild thawg with Rhaegar nine moons or months before she gave birth at Rhaegar's tower of joy. So when did the war start? Did it start when Lyanna went missing or when Arryn called his banners.

Truth be told, I think Martin fucked up.

 

 

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

dag nabbit no one ever gives me credit for all my hard work Actually I can't say no one, cause occasionally someone says thanks or agrees.

On the silly side think about this, Jon is supposedly 8-9 moons or is that months older than Dany. Roberts Rebellion lasted close to a year. Was that 10, 11 or 12 moons (months)?

Awww, Puppy, I like.

Seriously though, given all the speculation, when did Lyanna do the wild thawg with Rhaegar? It doesn't add up. That is why I opened my post with

I'm thinkin' given the quotes from Cat, Lyanna had to have been doing the wild thawg with Rhaegar nine moons or months before she gave birth at Rhaegar's tower of joy. So when did the war start? Did it start when Lyanna went missing or when Arryn called his banners.

Truth be told, I think Martin fucked up.

 

 

When Aerys demanded Ned and Robert's heads and Arryn called his banners. 

How do you think Martin fucked up?

[Clegane'sPup]

16 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

When Aerys demanded Ned and Robert's heads and Arryn called his banners. 

How do you think Martin fucked up?

A look at what I posted earlier is pasted into a spoiler tag

Spoiler

Each time I try to figure out Robert’s Rebblion, Eddards travels and Jon Snow’s birth I can’t come up with a satisfactory conclusion. The whole thing seems to be purposely written wacky. I doesn’t help that some material was included in the app & world book (neither of which I own).

It seems to me Lyannna goes missing, Brandon & his father die at KL, Arryn refuses to give up Eddard & Robert and rebellion breaks out. Eddard, now Lord of WF has to make his way over mountains, across land and water and maybe by river (White Knife) to WF. Then he calls his banners and heads south in time to help Robert at the Battle of the Bells.

I would say the Rebellion started when Arryn called his banners, although the actual fighting seems to have started at Gulltown.

Did Eddard & Cat marry before or after the Battle of the Bells? My opinion is they married before the BotB’s.

Taking a look at some of the stuff Cat says:   Eddard fathered a bastard while off fighting in the Rebellion. Yes, “and they spent that year apart” is ambiguous. She stayed safe at Riverrun. After the wars were over she went to WF. More ambiguity, “Ned brought his bastard home with him.”  This implies to me that Eddard brought Jon to WF. That he bypassed Riverrun. So when Cat arrived at WF Eddard, Jon & his wet nurse already there.

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn II     Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs.    He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

She also says after her marriage to Eddard, he stayed scarcely a fortnight before riding off to war. AND nine moons later Robb was born at Riverrun while Eddard was still warring in the south. Again I ask myself did the marriage take place before or after the BotB’s.

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn X     Brandon Stark had bid her wait as well. "I shall not be long, my lady," he had vowed. "We will be wed on my return." Yet when the day came at last, it was his brother Eddard who stood beside her in the sept.

Ned had lingered scarcely a fortnight with his new bride before he too had ridden off to war with promises on his lips. At least he had left her with more than words; he had given her a son. Nine moons had waxed and waned, and Robb had been born in Riverrun while his father still warred in the south. She had brought him forth in blood and pain, not knowing whether Ned would ever see him. Her son. He had been so small …

The below quote has one interesting about Eddard, “though I never saw Ned’s face until our wedding day.” She married a stranger, said her goodbyes and he went off to King, and woman who bore his bastard.

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn VI     And when Lord Hoster promised her to Brandon Stark, she had thanked him for making her such a splendid match.   I gave Brandon my favor to wear, and never comforted Petyr once after he was wounded, nor bid him farewell when Father sent him off. And when Brandon was murdered and Father told me I must wed his brother, I did so gladly, though I never saw Ned's face until our wedding day. I gave my maidenhood to this solemn stranger and sent him off to his war and his king and the woman who bore him his bastard, because I always did my duty.

Then I end up back where I started from, scratching my head and looking for any clear, concise information as to the curious sequence of events that seem to start with Lyanna.

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn VII    "Brandon was nothing like you."    "If you say so. You and he were to wed."    "He was on his way to Riverrun when . . ." Strange, how telling it still made her throat grow tight, after all these years. ". . . when he heard about Lyanna, and went to King's Landing instead. It was a rash thing to do." She remembered how her own father had raged when the news had been brought to Riverrun. The gallant fool, was what he called Brandon.

Maybe one day Martin will clarify what happened when. Cat did say Eddard stayed with her scarcely a fortnight and nine moons after Robb was born. She also said she waited out the wars safely at Riverrun. When she & Robb arrived at WF she discovered Eddard had brought home his bastard & a wet nurse.

I will bow down and thank the old and the new gods if someone can figure out where and when Jon was conceived. Conceived, not born. Apparently he was born at Rhaegar’s tower of joy. Was he born 7, 8 or 9 moons after conception? Arrrrrgh, face palm.

Thanks.

•  

Your question is how I think Martin fucked up.

My question is when and where did Lyanna conceive?

[kissdbyfire]

7 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

A look at what I posted earlier is pasted into a spoiler tag

  Hide contents

Each time I try to figure out Robert’s Rebblion, Eddards travels and Jon Snow’s birth I can’t come up with a satisfactory conclusion. The whole thing seems to be purposely written wacky. I doesn’t help that some material was included in the app & world book (neither of which I own).

It seems to me Lyannna goes missing, Brandon & his father die at KL, Arryn refuses to give up Eddard & Robert and rebellion breaks out. Eddard, now Lord of WF has to make his way over mountains, across land and water and maybe by river (White Knife) to WF. Then he calls his banners and heads south in time to help Robert at the Battle of the Bells.

I would say the Rebellion started when Arryn called his banners, although the actual fighting seems to have started at Gulltown.

Did Eddard & Cat marry before or after the Battle of the Bells? My opinion is they married before the BotB’s.

Taking a look at some of the stuff Cat says:   Eddard fathered a bastard while off fighting in the Rebellion. Yes, “and they spent that year apart” is ambiguous. She stayed safe at Riverrun. After the wars were over she went to WF. More ambiguity, “Ned brought his bastard home with him.”  This implies to me that Eddard brought Jon to WF. That he bypassed Riverrun. So when Cat arrived at WF Eddard, Jon & his wet nurse already there.

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn II     Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs.    He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

She also says after her marriage to Eddard, he stayed scarcely a fortnight before riding off to war. AND nine moons later Robb was born at Riverrun while Eddard was still warring in the south. Again I ask myself did the marriage take place before or after the BotB’s.

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn X     Brandon Stark had bid her wait as well. "I shall not be long, my lady," he had vowed. "We will be wed on my return." Yet when the day came at last, it was his brother Eddard who stood beside her in the sept.

Ned had lingered scarcely a fortnight with his new bride before he too had ridden off to war with promises on his lips. At least he had left her with more than words; he had given her a son. Nine moons had waxed and waned, and Robb had been born in Riverrun while his father still warred in the south. She had brought him forth in blood and pain, not knowing whether Ned would ever see him. Her son. He had been so small …

The below quote has one interesting about Eddard, “though I never saw Ned’s face until our wedding day.” She married a stranger, said her goodbyes and he went off to King, and woman who bore his bastard.

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn VI     And when Lord Hoster promised her to Brandon Stark, she had thanked him for making her such a splendid match.   I gave Brandon my favor to wear, and never comforted Petyr once after he was wounded, nor bid him farewell when Father sent him off. And when Brandon was murdered and Father told me I must wed his brother, I did so gladly, though I never saw Ned's face until our wedding day. I gave my maidenhood to this solemn stranger and sent him off to his war and his king and the woman who bore him his bastard, because I always did my duty.

Then I end up back where I started from, scratching my head and looking for any clear, concise information as to the curious sequence of events that seem to start with Lyanna.

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn VII    "Brandon was nothing like you."    "If you say so. You and he were to wed."    "He was on his way to Riverrun when . . ." Strange, how telling it still made her throat grow tight, after all these years. ". . . when he heard about Lyanna, and went to King's Landing instead. It was a rash thing to do." She remembered how her own father had raged when the news had been brought to Riverrun. The gallant fool, was what he called Brandon.

Maybe one day Martin will clarify what happened when. Cat did say Eddard stayed with her scarcely a fortnight and nine moons after Robb was born. She also said she waited out the wars safely at Riverrun. When she & Robb arrived at WF she discovered Eddard had brought home his bastard & a wet nurse.

I will bow down and thank the old and the new gods if someone can figure out where and when Jon was conceived. Conceived, not born. Apparently he was born at Rhaegar’s tower of joy. Was he born 7, 8 or 9 moons after conception? Arrrrrgh, face palm.

Thanks.

•  

Your question is how I think Martin fucked up.

My question is when and where did Lyanna conceive?

Gotcha. There are too many blanks, and no way of filling them out w/o more info.

 

[WeKnowNothing]

13 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

A look at what I posted earlier is pasted into a spoiler tag

  Reveal hidden contents

Each time I try to figure out Robert’s Rebblion, Eddards travels and Jon Snow’s birth I can’t come up with a satisfactory conclusion. The whole thing seems to be purposely written wacky. I doesn’t help that some material was included in the app & world book (neither of which I own).

It seems to me Lyannna goes missing, Brandon & his father die at KL, Arryn refuses to give up Eddard & Robert and rebellion breaks out. Eddard, now Lord of WF has to make his way over mountains, across land and water and maybe by river (White Knife) to WF. Then he calls his banners and heads south in time to help Robert at the Battle of the Bells.

I would say the Rebellion started when Arryn called his banners, although the actual fighting seems to have started at Gulltown.

Did Eddard & Cat marry before or after the Battle of the Bells? My opinion is they married before the BotB’s.

Taking a look at some of the stuff Cat says:   Eddard fathered a bastard while off fighting in the Rebellion. Yes, “and they spent that year apart” is ambiguous. She stayed safe at Riverrun. After the wars were over she went to WF. More ambiguity, “Ned brought his bastard home with him.”  This implies to me that Eddard brought Jon to WF. That he bypassed Riverrun. So when Cat arrived at WF Eddard, Jon & his wet nurse already there.

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn II     Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs.    He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

She also says after her marriage to Eddard, he stayed scarcely a fortnight before riding off to war. AND nine moons later Robb was born at Riverrun while Eddard was still warring in the south. Again I ask myself did the marriage take place before or after the BotB’s.

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn X     Brandon Stark had bid her wait as well. "I shall not be long, my lady," he had vowed. "We will be wed on my return." Yet when the day came at last, it was his brother Eddard who stood beside her in the sept.

Ned had lingered scarcely a fortnight with his new bride before he too had ridden off to war with promises on his lips. At least he had left her with more than words; he had given her a son. Nine moons had waxed and waned, and Robb had been born in Riverrun while his father still warred in the south. She had brought him forth in blood and pain, not knowing whether Ned would ever see him. Her son. He had been so small …

The below quote has one interesting about Eddard, “though I never saw Ned’s face until our wedding day.” She married a stranger, said her goodbyes and he went off to King, and woman who bore his bastard.

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn VI     And when Lord Hoster promised her to Brandon Stark, she had thanked him for making her such a splendid match.   I gave Brandon my favor to wear, and never comforted Petyr once after he was wounded, nor bid him farewell when Father sent him off. And when Brandon was murdered and Father told me I must wed his brother, I did so gladly, though I never saw Ned's face until our wedding day. I gave my maidenhood to this solemn stranger and sent him off to his war and his king and the woman who bore him his bastard, because I always did my duty.

Then I end up back where I started from, scratching my head and looking for any clear, concise information as to the curious sequence of events that seem to start with Lyanna.

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn VII    "Brandon was nothing like you."    "If you say so. You and he were to wed."    "He was on his way to Riverrun when . . ." Strange, how telling it still made her throat grow tight, after all these years. ". . . when he heard about Lyanna, and went to King's Landing instead. It was a rash thing to do." She remembered how her own father had raged when the news had been brought to Riverrun. The gallant fool, was what he called Brandon.

Maybe one day Martin will clarify what happened when. Cat did say Eddard stayed with her scarcely a fortnight and nine moons after Robb was born. She also said she waited out the wars safely at Riverrun. When she & Robb arrived at WF she discovered Eddard had brought home his bastard & a wet nurse.

I will bow down and thank the old and the new gods if someone can figure out where and when Jon was conceived. Conceived, not born. Apparently he was born at Rhaegar’s tower of joy. Was he born 7, 8 or 9 moons after conception? Arrrrrgh, face palm.

Thanks.

•  

Your question is how I think Martin fucked up.

My question is when and where did Lyanna conceive?

I think you can piece together the timeline of the rebellion, if you go look up everything which happens in order and how long. It's just because not all the seats old are known to us yet, but we have a basic timeline to go with at the moment. Then you could just estimate where Jon was conceived, which would be if Lyanna carried him in a full-term pregnancy. 

Very early 282 - Rhaegar abducted or ran off with Lyanna. Around this time Brandon would receive news of the 'abduction' and ride off to Kings Landing whilst Rhaegar and Lyanna ride off to Dorne. 

Give it a month - Rickard turns up at Kings Landing and deaths of Rickard and Brandon happen. Another few days and Jon Aryyn raises his banners and war begins. 

Battle of Gulltown, Battle of Ashford, battle of Summerhall all of which happens within the next 2-3 months. (Aryyns, Starks and Baratheons were the only MAJOR houses rebelling this time).

Between early-mid 282 - Marriage  of Ned/Cat, Jon/Lysa takes place. Ned and Cat conceive Robb at this same night. Within a week or two, Ned leaves Cat at Riverrun, and they don't see each other till a year later. 

Lyanna and Rhaegar conceive Jon  - this is an estimate, as going by the timetable, his conceivement would have to be put just about this time. We don't yet know where they were at this time: were they travelling around, and then go to the tower of joy. OR did they just run straight off to the tower of joy? It's not made clear and we won't know until we are told so by GRRM.

Battle of the bells - which may have lasted a week or two.

After another month, Rhaegar returns from Dorne to command the army at the trident. Aerys also must have sent Viserys and Rhaella (who is implied to have conceived Daenearys only a night before) to Dragonstone by now.

Battle of the trident - Rhaegars death, his army flees and the rebels win.

After two weeks, Tywin marches and sacks Kings Landing. Within hours or even minutes, Elia and her kids, and Aerys are all dead. Aftermath of the sack includes Ned arriving and discovering the babies dead bodies, he argues with Robert, then leaves for Storms End. 

Seige of Storms End - Ned travels to storms end, ends the seige. I'm thinking maybe Robb could be born by this point? Ned then travels to tower of joy, all of this could have taken him a month or even two. 

Now it's everything that happens at the tower of joy - Ned arrives to fight the kingsguard, then go into find Jon just having been born or even as old as a week. Lyanna was slowly dying, though she manages to make Ned promise to keep him safe/ bury her at Winterfell, and any other promises. 

Daenearys would be born about 8/9 months after this, and then Rhaella dies, Dany and Viserys file to Essos/Pentos. 

 

 

 

[Clegane'sPup]

On 6/3/2017 at 9:36 AM, WeKnowNothing said:

I think you can piece together the timeline of the rebellion, if you go look up everything which happens in order and how long.

Thanks for sharing your ideas. There is a fan made timeline/sequence of events that can be helpful. It was recommended to me by another poster.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZsY3lcDDtTdBWp1Gx6mfkdtZT6-Gk0kdTGeSC_Dj7WM/htmlview

I’m being an ass here, but if the war lasted less than a year it comes back to the elusive/evasive/ambiguous MONTH and whether the rebellion started when Aryyn called his banners.

According to Cat Eddard stayed with Cat scarcely two weeks. Nine moons (months) later Robb was born.

Supposedly the rebellion/war lasted less than a year. Jon is supposed to be 8-9 month older that Dany. When did Dany’s mom leave KL and go to Dragonstone? Off the top of my head think that is mentioned in a Jaime POV.

I’m not singling you out. I am asking questions for anyone who is interested.

Cat says Eddard was with her scarcely two weeks and that she waited out the war at Riverrun. She says Robb was 9 moons/months (plus or minus the two weeks) after her and Eddard’s consummation of the marriage. When she ventured to WF after the rebellion/wars she found that Eddard, Jon and wet nurse were already there.

What started this train of thought is what “and they had spent that year apart,” meant. The quote and book and chapter are referenced below for context.

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn II     Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs.    He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

Going back to my original post for reference the year that Cat is talking about is transpiring during the time of Robert’s Rebellion and the first year of her marriage simultaneously.

So, I am again returning to Lyanna’s disappearance which happened before the King called for Eddard’s and Robert’s heads. The rebellion/war supposedly lasted less than a year. Yes, the supposedly official ending of the war/rebellion ended at the Sack of KL. Yet, the skirmishes/battles were not over.

That is the dilemma in trying to figure out Martin’s story.  While Cat may be correct in her recollection the rest as it relates to Rhaegar’s tower of joy and when Lyanna conceived ---- well if Jon Snow is Rhaegar’s son. Rhaegar had to have done the wild thawg with Lyanna at least before the Battle of the Trident. Maybe before the Battle of the Bells? It can't be after the Battle of the Bells, can it? 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

@Clegane'sPup

Please forgive me, but I am still not sure what your problem is with the timeline. It is obviously lacking pertinent info, but you seem to be under the impression that Cat's explanation of events is impossible. Why exactly do you think that?

Let me provide some info and see if it helps. First, I can tell you that Cat and Ned were definitely married AFTER the Battle of the Bells based on this quote from ASOS Cat I:

She and her sister had been married on the same day, and left in their father's care when their new husbands had ridden off to rejoin Robert's rebellion. Afterward, when their moon blood did not come at the accustomed time, Lysa had gushed happily of the sons she was certain they carried. "Your son will be heir to Winterfell and mine to the Eyrie. Oh, they'll be the best of friends, like your Ned and Lord Robert. They'll be more brothers than cousins, truly, I just know it." She was so happy.

But Lysa's blood had come not long after, and all the joy had gone out of her. Catelyn had always thought that Lysa had simply been a little late, but if she had been with child . . .

She remembered the first time she gave her sister Robb to hold; small, red-faced, and squalling, but strong even then, full of life. No sooner had Catelyn placed the babe in her sister's arms than Lysa's face dissolved into tears. Hurriedly she had thrust the baby back at Catelyn and fled.

If she had lost a child before, that might explain Father's words, and much else besides... Lysa's match with Lord Arryn had been hastily arranged, and Jon was an old man even then, older than their father. An old man without an heir. His first two wives had left him childless, his brother's son had been murdered with Brandon Stark in King's Landing, his gallant cousin had died in the Battle of the Bells. He needed a young wife if House Arryn was to continue... a young wife known to be fertile.

So based on that passage, we know that Lysa and Cat were married after Jon Arryn's gallant cousin died in the BotB.

Secondly, YES, Rhaegar and Lyanna absolutely could have conceived Dany (or JON I guess...  ) after the BotB, because Rhaegar did not fight in the war until the Trident, which was months later.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

@WeKnowNothing

Cat's marriage was after the Battle of the Bells, and there is no reason to think the battle lasted for weeks. It was probably a single day based on the tactics involved, i.e. Ned Stark setting up a brilliant ambush to swiftly destroy Jon Connington's army.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

On 6/2/2017 at 5:56 PM, Wolfgirly said:

This doesn't make sense at all. He loved her and was making plans. He planned to make changes (ovethrow his mad father) and hold a council meeting. I'm certain if he survived and avoided/killed the maniac Robert at the Tridant, he would've returned to Lyanna just in time to see his newborn son.  

He planned to overthrow his father, yes. Would he have returned to Lyanna just in time to see his newborn son? Sure he would... right before he murdered her!!  

But seriously, you aren't listing a single reason why he wouldn't sacrifice the woman he loved for the sake of fulfilling prophecy. He thought the entire world was at stake.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

On 6/2/2017 at 1:49 PM, kissdbyfire said:

No, you are!

Sure, I agree she is thinking about the first year of her marriage. The thing is, the first year of her marriage is the year of the war. 

And you should have left the next lines of the second quote:

Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs.

I don't think the language is misleading at all. But let me ask you one thing, when did Ned get it on w/ the fisherman's daughter and where is the kid?

OK, yes, we are agree that the first year of her marriage is (more or less) the year of the war, as they were married 2-3 months into the war, a war which lasted close to a year. And she might as well be referencing both their marriage and the war for the sake of our discussion. And in the bolded line you referenced about Robb, she is thinking about breastfeeding a young Robb at Riverrun and about Ned being off at war.

But all of that has nothing to do with how much time she spent at Riverrun/traveling to WF before arriving at WF and meeting Jon for the first time. She never says that she only spent 12 months at Riverrun before traveling to WF and meeting Jon. She got there after Ned and Jon, which means the date she arrived was approximately the date of her marriage + 9 months (based on the war lasting close to a year) + Ned's trip to ToJ then Starfall then KL then WF + Cat's trip to WF (which could potentially overlap with Ned's). But we have no way of knowing how long Ned's journey took. The only good reference we have is the fact that Jon's wet nurse was still there when Cat showed up, implying that Jon was still breastfeeding.

Ned would have gotten it on with the fisherman's daughter on his way to WF and then used the convenient rumor as a cover for his brother's bastard. But he may have had to lie about Jon's age to explain why the baby came from the south, a location Ned didn't travel to until after his marriage. And the kid is just chillin somewhere in the world, or dead. For the record, I don't think this is what happened, but the story about Ned fathering a bastard on a fisherman's daughter is weird and lacks explanation.

But let's ignore all of THAT for a minute. If GRRM really wanted to stretch the B+A=J timeline, hypothetically the first 3 battles of the war and subsequent marriages could have happened super fast, putting the conception of Robb ~4 weeks after the conception of Jon in the black cells. And then Ashara could have had a 10 month pregnancy, making Jon and Robb the same age. And then Cat may not have met Jon until he was, say, 24 months old, and Ned could have claimed he was 23 months old. Given how whacky the timeline is and GRRM's warning to fans not to break out the rulers on the map to figure out timelines, I think that is a perfectly reasonable scenario.

EDIT: I'm not sure how exactly Cat even heard the rumor of Ned's child, or if Ned purposely started the rumor himself, but I am guessing the rumor she heard was actually about Jon and not the fisherman's daughter's child.

[maudisdottir]

44 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

If she had lost a child before, that might explain Father's words, and much else besides... Lysa's match with Lord Arryn had been hastily arranged, and Jon was an old man even then, older than their father. An old man without an heir. His first two wives had left him childless, his brother's son had been murdered with Brandon Stark in King's Landing, his gallant cousin had died in the Battle of the Bells. He needed a young wife if House Arryn was to continue... a young wife known to be fertile.

 

I agree that it reads that way, the double wedding took place after the Battle of the Bells because Jon Arryn was without an heir. But it's possible that he decided to hastily marry even before his last heir died, because he was fast running out of them.

I'll admit it's unlikely though, and it certainly doesn't mean the wedding took place any earlier.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

Just now, maudisdottir said:

I agree that it reads that way, the double wedding took place after the Battle of the Bells because Jon Arryn was without an heir. But it's possible that he decided to hastily marry even before his last heir died, because he was fast running out of them.

I'll admit it's unlikely though, and it certainly doesn't mean the wedding took place any earlier.

No, it's not possible the wedding was before the battle. The marriage definitely was arranged after "his gallant cousin had died". Any other interpretation is wrong. The entire point of that statement is saying that Jon Arryn hastily agreed to marry Lysa specifically because he had no heir, because his last 2 heirs were both dead.

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

OK, yes, we are agree that the first year of her marriage is (more or less) the year of the war, as they were married 2-3 months into the war, a war which lasted close to a year. And she might as well be referencing both their marriage and the war for the sake of our discussion. And in the bolded line you referenced about Robb, she is thinking about breastfeeding a young Robb at Riverrun and about Ned being off at war.

Yeah, we had already more or less agreed on that, right? 

2 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

But all of that has nothing to do with how much time she spent at Riverrun/traveling to WF before arriving at WF and meeting Jon for the first time. She never says that she only spent 12 months at Riverrun before traveling to WF and meeting Jon. She got there after Ned and Jon, which means the date she arrived was approximately the date of her marriage + 9 months (based on the war lasting close to a year) + Ned's trip to ToJ then Starfall then KL then WF + Cat's trip to WF (which could potentially overlap with Ned's). But we have no way of knowing how long Ned's journey took. The only good reference we have is the fact that Jon's wet nurse was still there when Cat showed up, implying that Jon was still breastfeeding.

I'd say it's a given that there's overlap there. 

2 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Ned would have gotten it on with the fisherman's daughter on his way to WF and then used the convenient rumor as a cover for his brother's bastard.

On his way to Winterfell when? After the war? 

2 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

But he may have had to lie about Jon's age to explain why the baby came from the south, a location Ned didn't travel to until after his marriage. And the kid is just chillin somewhere in the world, or dead. For the record, I don't think this is what happened, but the story about Ned fathering a bastard on a fisherman's daughter is weird and lacks explanation.

I don't find it that weird tbh. For instance, someone around the Sisters saw Lord Eddard Stark travelling back to Winterfell w/ a baby and a wet nurse, told someone else who, in turn, told someone else, and so on, and we know how easy it is for a rumour to start. One person changes what they heard a bit, the next adds a bit of flavour, and there you go, he fathered a bastard on the fisherman's daughter. 

2 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

But let's ignore all of THAT for a minute. If GRRM really wanted to stretch the B+A=J timeline, hypothetically the first 3 battles of the war and subsequent marriages could have happened super fast, putting the conception of Robb ~4 weeks after the conception of Jon in the black cells. And then Ashara could have had a 10 month pregnancy, making Jon and Robb the same age.

There's not much there in terms of evidence to be ignored!

Yeah, it's possible the first few battles and Cat and Lysa's weddings could have happened very fast. In fact, it's even likely since the war lasted "close to a year" - as I've said before, close to a year to me is ~ 9 - 10 months. But the whole thing with Brandon conceiving Jon while locked up in the Black Cells is as tinfoil-y as it gets. Sorry. But there is zero clues or hints, nothing, nada, zip. Unless there's some textual evidence you can provide? 

 

2 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

And then Cat may not have met Jon until he was, say, 24 months old, and Ned could have claimed he was 23 months old. Given how whacky the timeline is and GRRM's warning to fans not to break out the rulers on the map to figure out timelines, I think that is a perfectly reasonable scenario.

No, that's not possible. Remember how we just agreed on the [almost] year of the war being the first year of Cat and Ned's marriage and also a year they spent apart? And how Robb was conceived on their wedding night? The maths just doesn't add up. The timeline is vague, but not that vague. 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, we had already more or less agreed on that, right? 

I'd say it's a given that there's overlap there. 

On his way to Winterfell when? After the war? 

I don't find it that weird tbh. For instance, someone around the Sisters saw Lord Eddard Stark travelling back to Winterfell w/ a baby and a wet nurse, told someone else who, in turn, told someone else, and so on, and we know how easy it is for a rumour to start. One person changes what they heard a bit, the next adds a bit of flavour, and there you go, he fathered a bastard on the fisherman's daughter. 

There's not much there in terms of evidence to be ignored!

Yeah, it's possible the first few battles and Cat and Lysa's weddings could have happened very fast. In fact, it's even likely since the war lasted "close to a year" - as I've said before, close to a year to me is ~ 9 - 10 months. But the whole thing with Brandon conceiving Jon while locked up in the Black Cells is as tinfoil-y as it gets. Sorry. But there is zero clues or hints, nothing, nada, zip. Unless there's some textual evidence you can provide? 

I'd say it is definitely NOT a given that there was overlap between Ned's trip to WF and Cat's trip to WF. It is certainly possible that Ned waited until after he had arrived to send for Cat.

LOL what?! NO! At the beginning of the war.

"Ned Stark was here?"

"At the dawn of Robert's Rebellion. The Mad King had sent to the Eyrie for Stark's head, but Jon Arryn sent him back defiance. Gulltown stayed loyal to the throne, though. To get home and call his banners, Stark had to cross the mountains to the Fingers and find a fisherman to carry him across the Bite.

So no one saw Ned traveling with a baby around the Sisters. That just makes zero sense.  

Evidence that Brandon and Ashara could had conceived Jon in the black cells? Well there isn't much, but it's certainly not "as tinfoil-y as it gets":

• It is implied that Brandon and Ashara may have had a child, and the most likely candidate is Jon. Brandon and Ashara had a romance that began at Harrenhal, a romance that is one of the key aspects of the story of the tourney as told by Meera. Given the importance of the tournament, the existence of the sword Dawn, and the numerous mentions of Ashara and Arthur Dayne and of Brandon, it seems that Brandon and House Dayne are both more important to the story so far than it seems at face value. One thing that would help explain this discrepancy is if Brandon and Ashara had a child, a child who is both a major POV character and someone who will potentially be the new Sword of the Morning, i.e. Jon. And it would help explain the naming of Edric (Ned) Dayne and Ned's post-ToJ trip to Starfall if there was a baby swap between Ned and Ashara.
• the story of Bael the Bard involves kidnapping Lady Stark and conceiving a child with her in the crypts of WF. This would be a nice parallel to that story
• Ned somewhat follows in the footsteps of Brandon, first going to KL, then being imprisoned, and finally being executed by the king. Since Ned is thrown in the black cells and visited by Varys, it may be the case that Brandon was also thrown in the black cells and visited by Varys, who could have facilitated a visit from Ashara. And then Varys would later partner up with Ashara again to attach another baby, (f)Dany, to Viserys and use her in his long-term political schemes. And if LF hadn't killed Ned, Varys likely would have collected him en route to the Wall and enlisted him to join the Aegon cause

30 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

No, that's not possible. Remember how we just agreed on the [almost] year of the war being the first year of Cat and Ned's marriage and also a year they spent apart? And how Robb was conceived on their wedding night? The maths just doesn't add up. The timeline is vague, but not that vague. 

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH! NO! Holy shit... This is where you are not understanding me for some strange reason. I will try to be super clear.

Cat is referring to the first year of their marriage, which also happens to be while the war is going on.

THE AMOUNT OF TIME THEY SPENT APART IS COMPLETELY UNRELATED TO THE LENGTH OF THE WAR!!!!!!!!

...I mean, not completely, but at least as far as Cat's reference goes, that is the point I am trying to make. The war definitely lasted for close to a year. Done. Fact. We agree. But we still disagree on how long THEY SPENT APART. Sure... it might have only been about a year. Or it could have been closer to 2 years. And if not for other reference points available to us, I would say it could have been 5 years, or 10 years, or 100 fucking years for all we know, because CAT NEVER FUCKING SAYS HOW LONG THEY SPENT APART!

Please tell me you at least understand my point now even if you disagree with my conclusion?  

[kissdbyfire]

26 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I'd say it is definitely NOT a given that there was overlap between Ned's trip to WF and Cat's trip to WF. It is certainly possible that Ned waited until after he had arrived to send for Cat.

My bad, I didn't make myself clear before. What I meant to say but was too lazy to type was: I think there's  overlap between all of Ned's comings and goings and Cat's journey from RR to Winterfell. Iow, I don't think Ned, Jon and the wet nurse had been home for a long time when Cat arrived. But that's more a feeling than anything else. 

26 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

LOL what?! NO! At the beginning of the war.

"Ned Stark was here?"

"At the dawn of Robert's Rebellion. The Mad King had sent to the Eyrie for Stark's head, but Jon Arryn sent him back defiance. Gulltown stayed loyal to the throne, though. To get home and call his banners, Stark had to cross the mountains to the Fingers and find a fisherman to carry him across the Bite.

So no one saw Ned traveling with a baby around the Sisters. That just makes zero sense.  

No, someone did, and told someone else, yadda yadda yadda. The point is that when he got there he already had the baby w/ him!

 

26 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Evidence that Brandon and Ashara could had conceived Jon in the black cells? Well there isn't much, but it's certainly not "as tinfoil-y as it gets":

• It is implied that Brandon and Ashara may have had a child, and the most likely candidate is Jon. Brandon and Ashara had a romance that began at Harrenhal, a romance that is one of the key aspects of the story of the tourney as told by Meera. Given the importance of the tournament, the existence of the sword Dawn, and the numerous mentions of Ashara and Arthur Dayne and of Brandon, it seems that Brandon and House Dayne are both more important to the story so far than it seems at face value. One thing that would help explain this discrepancy is if Brandon and Ashara had a child, a child who is both a major POV character and someone who will potentially be the new Sword of the Morning, i.e. Jon. And it would help explain the naming of Edric (Ned) Dayne and Ned's post-ToJ trip to Starfall if there was a baby swap between Ned and Ashara.
• the story of Bael the Bard involves kidnapping Lady Stark and conceiving a child with her in the crypts of WF. This would be a nice parallel to that story
• Ned somewhat follows in the footsteps of Brandon, first going to KL, then being imprisoned, and finally being executed by the king. Since Ned is thrown in the black cells and visited by Varys, it may be the case that Brandon was also thrown in the black cells and visited by Varys, who could have facilitated a visit from Ashara. And then Varys would later partner up with Ashara again to attach another baby, (f)Dany, to Viserys and use her in his long-term political schemes. And if LF hadn't killed Ned, Varys likely would have collected him en route to the Wall and enlisted him to join the Aegon cause

That's not evidence, that's whishful thinking based on nothing. And no, I won't take it back, it's as tinfoil-y as it gets in my book!

 

26 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH! NO! Holy shit... This is where you are not understanding me for some strange reason. I will try to be super clear.

Cat is referring to the first year of their marriage, which also happens to be while the war is going on.

THE AMOUNT OF TIME THEY SPENT APART IS COMPLETELY UNRELATED TO THE LENGTH OF THE WAR!!!!!!!!

...I mean, not completely, but at least as far as Cat's reference goes, that is the point I am trying to make. The war definitely lasted for close to a year. Done. Fact. We agree. But we still disagree on how long THEY SPENT APART. Sure... it might have only been about a year. Or it could have been closer to 2 years. And if not for other reference points available to us, I would say it could have been 5 years, or 10 years, or 100 fucking years for all we know, because CAT NEVER FUCKING SAYS HOW LONG THEY SPENT APART!

Please tell me you at least understand my point now even if you disagree with my conclusion?  

I DO understand! But it doesn't add up!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are saying that when Cat thinks "they had spent that year apart" or something along those lines, she is referring to a specific year but that doesn't meant that was the only period of time they were apart. So, they could have been apart for 18 months, or 12 years or whatever. Right? But I vehemently disagree, I don't think Cat and Ned were apart for [much] more than a year. Sue me!

 

 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

That's not evidence, that's whishful thinking based on nothing. And no, I won't take it back, it's as tinfoil-y as it gets in my book!

Well, to be fair to myself, there is more evidence than that for B+A=J, as has been discussed in other threads. My point is simply that for the timeline to be possible, Brandon either had to have sex with Ashara on the way to KL or while he was a prisoner, and I think while he was a prisoner would make more sense. It's not wishful thinking, it's simply outlining a scenario for B+A=J that is within the realm of possibility. Because as we know, there are plenty of theories suggested that are outright impossible based on the timeline or whatever else.

For instance: Mance=Rhaegar is wwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyy more tinfoil-y, and I don't believe it for a second, but many people do.

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

I DO understand! But it doesn't add up!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are saying that when Cat thinks "they had spent that year apart" or something along those lines, she is referring to a specific year but that doesn't meant that was the only period of time they were apart. So, they could have been apart for 18 months, or 12 years or whatever. Right? But I vehemently disagree, I don't think Cat and Ned were apart for [much] more than a year. Sue me!

LOL I'm not going to take legal actions against you, but why specifically do you think Cat and Ned were not apart for much more than a year? And do you at least concede that it is possible that they were apart for a length of time as long as 2.5 years ish, even if unlikely?

And regardless of your answer to that, would you agree that Jon and Robb could potentially be the same age assuming Jon was conceived in the black cells and Ashara had a 10 month pregnancy? And do you think, if that is the case, that Ned could get away with passing off Jon as ~1 month younger than he is, even if Ned and Cat only spent a year ish apart?