Luddagain Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 I think it is very, very clear that there was NO elopement and that BOTH Lyanna ans Rhaegar were held captive by Aerys. 1. The KINGS guard were defending the ToJ. NOT the Prince's guard. They could ONLY be guarding Lyanna at the order of Aerys. Sure they were Rhaegar's friends but they were sworn to Aerys not Rhaegar. 2. Aerys was paranoid about a plot and was very anxious to prevent the marriage of Robert and Lyanna because such a Stormlands/North alliance was a threat to the realm especially when added to the marriage of Brandon and Catelyn of the Riverlands. Recall they no longer had dragons so rebellion was a very real possibility. The link up with Jon Arryn would have added to the concern ie 3-4 realms united against the crown. Aerys would have been determined to prevent this hence the kidnap of Lyanna and the murder of Brandon and Rickard and the calling of Ned and Arryn to present themselves to be murdered too. 3. Aerys was paranoid about Rhaegar plotting too and I suspect he WAS. I think the crown of Blue Roses was a signal to the other plotters that Rhaegar was IN ie he would ally with the North, Stormlands and Riverlands against his father. Possibly both Dorne and Westerlands were also in on the plot. i suspect that Jon Arryn was NOT involved. 4. Aerys responded by kidnapping and imprisoning both Rhaegar and Lyanna 5. Recall we get our story from the very people who would NOT know the truth ie Ser Barristan and Brandon. 6. I suspect that there was plotting going on at Harrenhall with Rickard being the instigator along with Hoster Tully and possibly Tywin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 5 hours ago, Luddagain said: They could ONLY be guarding Lyanna at the order of Aerys. Sure they were Rhaegar's friends but they were sworn to Aerys not Rhaegar. Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members? Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else." http://web.archive.org/web/20051103091500/nrctc.edu/fhq/vol1iss3/00103009.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luddagain Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 Ygrain Yes but the KINGS orders come ahead of the Prince. The KG must have been under orders from Aerys to protect/guard Lyanna at the ToJ. Why else for example did not Aerys call for his KG to come protect him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 On 31. 5. 2017 at 11:38 AM, Jon Snow Nothing said: But to believe he was in love with Lyanna so quickly, it's hard to believe. This is not "Twilight". Or at least I expect Martin to write a better explanation than this. You mean, like he wrote Jorah smitten with Lynesse? With Rhaegar, we can at least speculate that he had some contact with Lyanna when he was sent to look for KotLT, but Jorah didn't have even that. Yet, he won the tourney for her, in much the same way that Rhaegar's victory is described. On 31. 5. 2017 at 11:38 AM, Jon Snow Nothing said: Excuse me, but you are saying they eloped right? And eloping like this, a very well educated Prince and a girl like Lyanna would not think of consequences? You must be kidding. The problem is, what consequences would they be thinking about? Take Robb - the obvious consequences were losing the Freys' support and the Freys changing sides; could Red Wedding be foreseen? The Starks and Robert were bound to be enraged, but what would they be able to do if Rhaegar and Lyanna couldn't be found? Would it really be so impossible to appease them, to make some amends? What would have happened, had Brandon not gone to KL? Would the Rebellion still occur? 15 hours ago, Jon Snow Nothing said: 1) The prophecy was about a prince. He already had his prince, who was a little baby by the time R and L disappeared. "There must be one more". The prophecy also mentioned "a song of ice and fire", which might lead to interesting results if interpreted as a connection between a Targ and a Stark (not necessarily a correct interpretation but a possible one). 15 hours ago, Jon Snow Nothing said: 2) A third head would come in time. If Rhaegar really wanted to have another child, he could wait till his father was deposed and then put Elia aside and marry again. And if Lyanna was married to Robert meanwhile? Dany's version of the event - though not necessarily correct - mentions Rhaegar coming for his "northern girl", and she daydreams about Daario doing the same before her marriage to Hizdahr. 15 hours ago, Jon Snow Nothing said: 3) If for some reason he thought Lyanna, and only Lyanna, could give him his "third head" - not so important, but people who believe in the prophecy driven prince somehow thinks he couldn't wait to have this stupid third head, he had to be very sure she could bear a child. She was 15 when they disappeared. Wouldn't it be wiser to know better about a young girl if one of the reasons you run away with her is to have a baby? Did it have to be the only reason? Also, see above - potentially fitting a prophecy, and to married off soon. No time to waste 15 hours ago, Jon Snow Nothing said: 4) Everyone, and I think the Stark men all believed in this, thought Lyanna was abducted. If she was willing to go with the Prince why elope like this? It does not make sense. She might have struggled, not understanding why she was being taken away. And the Stark men could only see the Prince, KG and King's men. Oh? And where exactly do we have this statement of belief? What Bran parrots fourteen years later? Cat says that Brandon "heard of Lyanna" but not what it was that he heard, and he was hellbent on killing Rhaegar but not a word about the supposedly kidnapped sister. And Hoster Tully gets angry and calls him a gallant fool because Brandon got rightfully angry? Really? 15 hours ago, Jon Snow Nothing said: 5) A young girl in love eloping with her Prince... And two bodyguards! Weird, isn't it? No, why? It was not particularly safe to travel alone. 15 hours ago, Jon Snow Nothing said: 6) A Prince so recognizable like Rhaegar taking the girl in broad daylight (or moonlight) at swordpoint? Why not elope quietly and run away when nobody is looking? We see how Sansa is believed to be another person by dying her hair, same thing with young Griffin. Even hiding his hair and wearing different clothes, and keeping the KG also in disguise would be better, so all this makes no sense, no matter how I look at it. Oh? You know how exactly it went? You even know that it is a correct account, that the abduction story was not made up later to protect her (and the Starks') honour? Or that Lyanna was ever left without any supervision, so that she might sneak away? 7 hours ago, Wall Flower said: One thing that does make me wonder about the 'rescue' theory is the way the Tower of Joy echoes the Joyeux Gard - the castle where Lancelot took Guinevere after saving her from being burnt at the stake under the King's Justice. The castle was eventually besieged by King Arthur and, in some versions, razed to the ground by him, leaving only the tomb where Lancelot's body eventually rested. The castle then reverted to its original name of the Dolorous Gard, rather how Ned thinks of the Tower of Joy. Just idle speculation, of course, and may mean nothing at all. Yep. Lady Gwynhyfvar had an essay about this Arthurian parallel somewhere - she did speculate that Aerys may have found out the identity of KotLT and Rhaegar stepped in to save Lyanna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 13 minutes ago, Luddagain said: Ygrain Yes but the KINGS orders come ahead of the Prince. The KG must have been under orders from Aerys to protect/guard Lyanna at the ToJ. Why else for example did not Aerys call for his KG to come protect him. Oh, they certainly do. But if the king's orders never reached the KG, or the Prince made an agreement with the King not to interfere, then they would stay and follow the Prince's orders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maudisdottir Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 16 hours ago, Jon Snow Nothing said: 6) A Prince so recognizable like Rhaegar taking the girl in broad daylight (or moonlight) at swordpoint? Why not elope quietly and run away when nobody is looking? We see how Sansa is believed to be another person by dying her hair, same thing with young Griffin. Even hiding his hair and wearing different clothes, and keeping the KG also in disguise would be better, so all this makes no sense, no matter how I look at it. We don't even know if it was daylight or moonlight, which kind of indicates that nobody in the books WAS looking or witnessed the actual event. We only have hearsay, which is biased depending on whose version it is, and none of those accounts came from people who encountered them on the road. And if nobody recognised Rhaegar, why would he need to hide his hair? Or maybe he did! There are no eyewitness accounts in the books, which means they either planned it so that they wouldn't need to disguise themselves, or they DID disguise themselves so cleverly that nobody saw them. I think you've proved the exact opposite of whatever it is you're trying to say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luddagain Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 Ygrain Aerys and Rhaegar were not on good terms so Aerys was in no mood to allow Rhaegar to have his way. Indeed he was considering locking Rhaegar up. Remember Aerys was by this time batshit crazy. The hiding from Aerys idea makes SOME sense but you still have the problem of the Kings guard. They MUST have been there at the order of the king - unless - and this is a very, very, very big unless, those three HAD broken their vows and switched to Rhaegar. In that case perhaps they sort of chose to die at the ToJ, since having broken their vows to Aerys they believed they did not deserve to live - especially with Rhaegar dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prof. Cecily Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 On 6/2/2017 at 6:48 AM, Wall Flower said: One thing that does make me wonder about the 'rescue' theory is the way the Tower of Joy echoes the Joyeux Gard - the castle where Lancelot took Guinevere after saving her from being burnt at the stake under the King's Justice. The castle was eventually besieged by King Arthur and, in some versions, razed to the ground by him, leaving only the tomb where Lancelot's body eventually rested. The castle then reverted to its original name of the Dolorous Gard, rather how Ned thinks of the Tower of Joy. Just idle speculation, of course, and may mean nothing at all. Good catch, especially from the names' similarities. We shan't what it really means til the upcoming books are published. 17 hours ago, Ygrain said: ...Yep. Lady Gwynhyfvar had an essay about this Arthurian parallel somewhere - she did speculate that Aerys may have found out the identity of KotLT and Rhaegar stepped in to save Lyanna. I must look that up. Yesterday,in a thread at The Last Hearth, I read about a possible historical parallel to or source of the Lyanna-Rhaegar disappearance- the elopemenent of John I of England and Isabella of Angoulême. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabella_of_Angoulême I'm sure there are other historical and cultural shout outs related to this story. Is there anyone who's put them all together? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 3 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said: I must look that up. Definitely do, and listen to the Radio Westeros podcasts - they may not be right in everything but unlike many other theorists, they have their ASOIAF well-researched and theories soundly based. Quote Yesterday,in a thread at The Last Hearth, I read about a possible historical parallel to or source of the Lyanna-Rhaegar disappearance- the elopemenent of John I of England and Isabella of Angoulême. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabella_of_Angoulême I'm sure there are other historical and cultural shout outs related to this story. Is there anyone who's put them all together? Yeah, I am aware of this one - in fact, I also brought it to attention here some time ago. However, I don't think I'd heard about it from any other source before I came across it in a history book. When I did, though, my eyes nearly popped out - so many similarities! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prof. Cecily Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 2 hours ago, Ygrain said: Definitely do, and listen to the Radio Westeros podcasts - they may not be right in everything but unlike many other theorists, they have their ASOIAF well-researched and theories soundly based. Yeah, I am aware of this one - in fact, I also brought it to attention here some time ago. However, I don't think I'd heard about it from any other source before I came across it in a history book. When I did, though, my eyes nearly popped out - so many similarities! Is this the thread? I can't presume to know how reliable are their podcasts, but I listen to them occasionally. Also Westeros History Still, I see LG has a blog to search through: https://ladygwynhyfvar.wordpress.com/ Of course, I'm not surprised everything's been read mulled over and posted up dozens of times. Even so, the story of little Bessy is a curious chapter in European history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 I think I read it on her blog. There's another great essay there about Rhaegar ("The first time in years", I think). I am quite surprised that the abduction history doesn't get more coverage, given how obsessed people are with Helen and Paris. Isabelle was even called Helen of the middle ages! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prof. Cecily Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 9 minutes ago, Ygrain said: I think I read it on her blog. There's another great essay there about Rhaegar ("The first time in years", I think). I am quite surprised that the abduction history doesn't get more coverage, given how obsessed people are with Helen and Paris. Isabelle was even called Helen of the middle ages! This one? https://ladygwynhyfvar.wordpress.com/2016/02/22/rhaegar-targaryen-the-many-faced-abductor/ History is a curious beastie, yes. And we're considering only English history! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 5 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said: This one? https://ladygwynhyfvar.wordpress.com/2016/02/22/rhaegar-targaryen-the-many-faced-abductor/ History is a curious beastie, yes. And we're considering only English history! Yeah, that's the one, I guess - it's been a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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