US Politics: Terminal America

[Xray the Enforcer]

totally OT for this thread, but my coworkers and I were literally just making reference to the aforementioned donut episode, and also to Treehouse V, where Homer turns the toaster into a time vortex and he unknowingly flees a timeline where donuts rain from the skies.  

[King Ned Stark]

I won't claim to know much about it since I don't follow politics much anymore, but I had thought the U.S. had initially agreed to pay in aid for poorer countries.  

That, and the fact that it is an honor system, which could mean countries like Iran and N. Korea can say whatever they want, whereas America, and American companies had already started preparing for it.

Not trying to get anyone riled up, I personally don't trust either side, dems or pubs, but this situation we are in now isn't going to help anyone.  The right hated Obama, and the left hates Trump.  There is no middle ground, no compromise.

 

[Jaxom 1974]

1 hour ago, butterbumps! said:

I think Homer sold his soul for a donut.  It was forever on his head.  The turkey sandwich was courtesy of the monkey paw, iirc.    

Mmmmmm...forbidden donut...

[Ormond]

2 minutes ago, King Ned Stark said:

 

Not trying to get anyone riled up, I personally don't trust either side, dems or pubs, but this situation we are in now isn't going to help anyone.  The right hated Obama, and the left hates Trump.  There is no middle ground, no compromise.

 

You know, that's an overly simplistic view of the present situation, because so much of the traditional "right" also hates Trump. I don't remember a lot of left-wing newspaper columnists saying Obama was incompetent and dangerous, and basically urging congressional Democrats to impeach him, even when they strongly disagreed with one of his particular policies. There are many conservative "public intellectuals" right now who are saying Trump is incompetent and dangerous and congressional Republicans should get rid of him (or at least support investigations into his shadier dealings.)

[Zorral]

Ummm -- to be fair to moi:

in my initial  comment concerning the clueless and coal, in which the hurricane season (I've had to evacuate 4 times from hurricanes, and that includes Sandy and what created the aftermath of Katrina -- one is enough, to make one check all year long on the Atlantic's hurricane season potential -- and warm, warm winters are the worst for bringing 'em) -- the point was what were all these people going to do without a funded and staffed FEMA and federal assistance in the aftermath of these disasters?  The non-ending chaos of what was going on in New Orleans during and after Katrina during brownie's one heck of a job will look benign in comparison to what we don't have now.

Which explains why this:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/01/climate/american-cities-climate-standards.html?

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, butterbumps! said:

I think Homer sold his soul for a donut.  It was forever on his head.  The turkey sandwich was courtesy of the monkey paw, iirc.    

Drats, you're correct. Also, that episode has the best line in Simpson's history:

Quote

Kodos: It looks like the Earthlings won.
 

Kang: Did they? Right now they have a board with a nail in it. But they won't stop there. Soon they will make bigger boards with bigger nails until they make a board with a nail in it so big it will destroy them all!

 

[Fez]

Robert Mueller has taken control of an ongoing grand jury investigation in Virginia that had been looking at business associates of Michael Flynn to begin looking more directly at Flynn's work for Turkey and Russia. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-flynn-turkey-exclusive-idUSKBN18T276

He's moving pretty quickly.

[Seli]

4 hours ago, King Ned Stark said:

To be fair, Trump said he was willing to negotiate.  It is not like the Paris Agreement is a one time deal only.  Shouldn't the other world leaders, who said negotiations were not possible, be looked at with some skepticism?  If the agreement is so important, then why not negotiate with one of the most influential countries?

In this context, why should we count the USA as one of the most influential countries? At this point the most important countries seem to be those that can avoid reaching the per capita emissions of the USA while still increasing quality of life for their inhabitants. Say China, India, Nigeria, Brazil, Indonesia etc.

[Jaxom 1974]

9 minutes ago, Fez said:

Robert Mueller has taken control of an ongoing grand jury investigation in Virginia that had been looking at business associates of Michael Flynn to begin looking more directly at Flynn's work for Turkey and Russia. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-flynn-turkey-exclusive-idUSKBN18T276

He's moving pretty quickly.

Last night on MSNBC, Dan Rather was commenting that the seeming speed of the investigations and the reporting is an effect of technology and what it can do in the modern age versus the pace of Watergate, which seemed to come together quickly for that time...if I was understanding what he was saying.

 

[S John]

9 hours ago, A True Kaniggit said:

While playing cards today, the conversation turned to the US pulling out of the Paris Agreement. The overall opinion at the table? "I can't wait until those whiny-ass liberals start complaining about this!" 

So I asked whether or not any of them were worried about climate change. The response I got back? "They can't even tell what whether we'll be having next week. Are we really supposed to believe they can figure out the weather in 50 years?"

I'm going to go bang my head against a wall for awhile.

Edit: More to add. 

Not only this, but one of the first things said was, "I'm glad that disgusting bitch Hillary isn't president". 

Sadly, after my question about global warming and the reply I got I let the conversation drift to less dangerous ground. But I'm asking, how should I reply to comments like this in public? Should I escalate the discussion? I really don't want to get into a shouting match in the middle of a casino, which is probably what it would lead to. But how do you talk to a person who denies climate change with the excuse meteorologists can't predict the weather one week ahead of time?

There is very little you can do.  Conservative media has created a system where they can never be wrong, their instincts are always correct.  Because the media is full of globalist liberals.  The education system is full of globalist liberals.  NASA and NOAA are full of globalist liberals.  Any place you can send these guys to educate them on what climate change actually is has been repeatedly dinged by the likes of Rush, Hannity, Levin, O'Reilly, etc, who have convinced millions that conservative media is the only place where you can get the actual truth, rendering scientific fact a matter of political opinion. Nevermind that someone may have spent decades studying this, if Jimbo Bumblefuck heard it was all just a bunch of BS on Rush and that aligns with his instincts on the subject, it's game over.  

Deniers with a microphone (or keyboard) love NOTHING more than to go back and find climate predictions from the past that have not yet materialized and use those as evidence that the whole thing is bunk (IE "Al Gore said there'd be no polar ice by 2015!").  

If I'm going to get into it with someone on this topic I avoid that trap and simply state the basic facts. Strip away all the predictions of dire consequences and point out that it is not in dispute that CO2 is a greenhouse gas.  We know that CO2 becomes trapped in the atmosphere and takes a long time to dissipate, we know that it traps heat in the atmosphere. We also know that humans are putting a lot of extra CO2 into the atmosphere, and have been doing that for a while now and we can measure this in a straightforward way.  There are too many variables involved to place the consequences of this on an accurate timeline, but whatever the case may be it is not something that we should be messing with.  The wisest course of action is that as renewable energy sources improve, any country with any sense at all should be pushing towards use of renewable energy sources as quickly as possible.  Less CO2 in the atmosphere, and an overall cleaner and less polluted environment.  We may not yet be ready or able to fully shift to renewable, but that we should ASAP, is a no-brainier and anything else is just carrying water for the fossil fuel industry.  

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

46 minutes ago, King Ned Stark said:

I won't claim to know much about it since I don't follow politics much anymore, but I had thought the U.S. had initially agreed to pay in aid for poorer countries.  

In fairness, all the wealthy nations are aiding the poorer nations to some extent. The main complaint Trump et al. have is that the U.S. is paying earlier than other nations. It's a BS claim though. The U.S. volunteered to do so to set an example, and can change it's target dates at any time so long they don't push them past 2030. 

[Fragile Bird]

4 hours ago, King Ned Stark said:

To be fair, Trump said he was willing to negotiate.  It is not like the Paris Agreement is a one time deal only.  Shouldn't the other world leaders, who said negotiations were not possible, be looked at with some skepticism?  If the agreement is so important, then why not negotiate with one of the most influential countries?

First of all, the US was the leader in the negotiations, or, at the very least, the major leader. To hear the US say 'we were treated so unfairly' is bizarre.

Secondly, the 'unfairness' basically relates to the time China has been given, 13 years, to get rolling. The US was a leader of the industrial revolution, and single handedly contributed more damaging pollution than any other country in the world until very recently, when China caught up and passed the US. Trump and his supporters believe that China should immediately be put on the same footing as the US, which would mean tens of millions if not hundreds of millions of people left behind to live life at a very rudimentary level, an attitude which, understandably, makes millions  of people living in poverty around the world tell people in first world to stick it where the sun don't shine.

Of course China has announced billions for measures to fight climate change, but that doesn't count.

I have more to say but trying to post is like wading through glue, almost impossible.

 

[Dr. Pepper]

Has anyone read excerpts of Megyn Kelly's interview with Putin?  Can't link right now, but he talks about how squabbles in the west could undermine NATO which is good, says a toddler could hack the elections (but he probably didn't do it), and also that the U.S. investigating Russian connections and election hacking is somehow akin to persecution against Jews.

Oh, and maybe more relevant to the feminism thread, but feeling very ragey about multiple news outlets reporting on what Kelly wore to the interview.  Grr. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

10 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

First of all, the US was the leader in the negotiations, or, at the very least, the major leader. To hear the US say 'we were treated so unfairly' is bizarre.

Secondly, the 'unfairness' basically relates to the time China has been given, 13 years, to get rolling. The US was a leader of the industrial revolution, and single handedly contributed more damaging pollution than any other country in the world until very recently, when China caught up and passed the US. Trump and his supporters believe that China should immediately be put on the same footing as the US, which would mean tens of millions if not hundreds of millions of people left behind to live life at a very rudimentary level, an attitude which, understandably, makes millions  of people living in poverty around the world tell people in first world to stick it where the sun don't shine.

Of course China has announced billions for measures to fight climate change, but that doesn't count.

I have more to say but trying to post is like wading through glue, almost impossible.

All the excuses are just Trumpian bullshit at the end of the day. Bottom line, if it can be considered Obama Legacy Legislation, he's going to try to wipe it off the board. That's all this is at the end of the day.

[IheartIheartTesla]

Not even sure what Trump based his decision on. There are a number of CEOs, ranging from Elon Musk to the company I work for, who all advised him to stay on. Those people clearly represent more workers than all Appalachian coal miners combined.

As I said earlier in the thread, other countries should either symbolically or punitively sanction the US and force companies to move offshore with generous subsidies that offset other benefits of working in the US. That should force Trump's hand.

[Cas Stark]

14 minutes ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

Not even sure what Trump based his decision on. There are a number of CEOs, ranging from Elon Musk to the company I work for, who all advised him to stay on. Those people clearly represent more workers than all Appalachian coal miners combined.

As I said earlier in the thread, other countries should either symbolically or punitively sanction the US and force companies to move offshore with generous subsidies that offset other benefits of working in the US. That should force Trump's hand.

I don't see that happening.  The "treaty" and all of it's contents was voluntary and non binding to begin with, other countries sanctioning the U.S. seems extremely unlikely to me.

Trump is a known skeptic on climate change and he ran on this message, it should not be a surprise to anyone that he is governing in line with this skepticism.

[Maithanet]

Reporting has been that Trump wanted to pull out, but enjoyed all the attention from people like Elon Musk, Al Gore and Leonardo DiCaprio (not to mention closer confidants like Ivanka and Tillerson) to change his mind.  But in the end, Trump didn't change his mind, and there's a good chance he was never really considering it at all.  We'll never know, because Donald Trump is the only one who could say for sure, and he is such a liar I wouldn't trust it out of his own mouth. 

[Week]

17 minutes ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

Not even sure what Trump based his decision on. There are a number of CEOs, ranging from Elon Musk to the company I work for, who all advised him to stay on. Those people clearly represent more workers than all Appalachian coal miners combined.

As I said earlier in the thread, other countries should either symbolically or punitively sanction the US and force companies to move offshore with generous subsidies that offset other benefits of working in the US. That should force Trump's hand.

It would have been weird, but I would have expected him to use the Paris agreement as leverage to encourage US companies to invest domestically. Seems like a missed opportunity for someone with no respect for typical norms and only rhetoric.

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

Trump is a known skeptic conspiracy theorist and idiot on climate change and he ran on this message, it should not be a surprise to anyone that he is governing in line with this skepticism.

Fixed for accuracy.

[IheartIheartTesla]

2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Trump is a known skeptic on climate change and he ran on this message, it should not be a surprise to anyone that he is governing in line with this skepticism.

He is not a known skeptic or anything, his views are an incoherent mess of misunderstood stuff he heard from someone in his inner circle or the salesman's trick of latching on to views that align with the buyer - in this case all those blue collars in coal country.

His views are so malleable I am surprised high falutin' CEOs could not change it. Trump loves to get validation from the elite. As for sanctions, its just a thought experiment. Could be a carbon tariff on US exports for all I care.

[Ormond]

6 minutes ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

His views are so malleable I am surprised high falutin' CEOs could not change it. Trump loves to get validation from the elite. As for sanctions, its just a thought experiment. Could be a carbon tariff on US exports for all I care.

Personally I think Trump just likes to get validation, period. I think it's a combination of his realizing that the coal miners and the alt-right are going to give him more validation in the long run than the highly educated, even CEOs, and his belief that he appears "strong" when he sticks to the Europeans, who to him are "competition."