Did Lyanna commit suicide?

[purple-eyes]

3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Whether or not I'm a fan of Lyanna is beside the point.

You're deliberately referencing Lyanna in general as a woman betrothed, but not Robert. Mya Stone is only the first of many bastards, several of which were fathered by Robert while he claims to be fighting to get his betrothed back, who he believes is being raped. So, he's a betrothed man who sleeps around while believing the woman he claims to love is being raped a thousand times. If he doesn't mind sleeping around while he believes his betrothed is being raped, I'm pretty sure he doesn't mind sleeping around his betrothed while she's preparing for her wedding to him.

You could at least be honest and recognize this in the way you refer to Robert's sleeping around, rather than handwaving it away with "Oh Mya Stone was born before the betrothal he arranged with her father himself was publically announced". 

Furthermore, nowhere in that post did I defend Lyanna, nor did I say that in your scenario she's not applying double standards. What I'm saying is that you yourself are creating a double standard. 

What I will say is that just because she might have chosen Rheagar - a married man and father of 2 - over Robert, and that may be a double standard, that still doesn't make Robert a betrothed worht defending or whitewashing. So, no, Robert certainly is no better than Rhaegar imo.

It is only fair to compare Robert and Lyanna at the same time point. 

When Lyanna chose to sleep with Rhaegar, as far as she knew (and actually as far as we know), Robert only fathered Mya before their engagement. He was single at that point. 

You are trying to mix everything before and after together to judge Robert. And you use the information only we know to judge Lyanna's opinion on Robert. This is unfair. We never know what Lyanna will be if she lived, right?

 

 

 

[sweetsunray]

7 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

It is only fair to compare Robert and Lyanna at the same time point. 

When Lyanna chose to sleep with Rhaegar, as far as she knew (and actually as far as we know), Robert only fathered Mya before their engagement. He was single at that point. 

You are trying to mix everything before and after together to judge Robert. And you use the information only we know to judge Lyanna's opinion on Robert. This is unfair. We never know what Lyanna will be if she lived, right?

Bullshit!

The reason why Ned remembers it is because he just visited a 15 year old whore who has Robert's 16th bastard and who believes he loves her and will return to her. Ned basically admits to himself then that Robert would have made Lyanna a bad husband, who was never going to change, that what she said back then was a correct assessment. Ned actually knows what happened to Lyanna, what happened between Lyanna and Rhaegar, what happened to every woman that Robert tumbledin the sack,when he thinks of it, more than you do.

According to your reasoning, Lyanna is not allowed to make up her mind about Robert's nature before she's married for 15 years to him. That's utter bull!

Your argument is called denial,because it is very inconvenient to you.

[sweetsunray]

38 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

well, there is nothing in the book to suggest Rickard knew Lyanna's affair with Rhaegar. 

if you say he is not remembered for making things abot them, then I can put in the opposite way: If Rickard knew his daughter happily in love with Rhaegar and they are two lovebirds in honeymoon (or even married as some people imagined) , he should have raised this to seek mercy for Brandon and himself. 

Seriously, you think Lyanna will be able to elope if Rickard knew that she is in crazy love with Rhaegar? he probably wanted to lock his wild daughter in the Winterfell. 

I didn't say there is evidence either way. I only pointed out you're making a speculation out as fact. For Ned and Brandon we have evidence. We have no evidnece whatsoever for Rickard's knowledge. I am inclined to speculate he didn't know what happened, that he was smart enough to shut up about it to the king, but the king was mad so railing over it or not made no matter to Rickard's fate. But I wouldn't say with absolute surety that Rickard knew nothing like Ned and Brandon.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

5 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Yes I understand she had no say in her marriage but what is the point of having "wolf blood" if she can't tell Robert to his face she doesn't want him. I understand it would be very rude but it's better then leading him on.

You just answered your own question. She couldn't tell Robert to his face because "she had no say in her marriage". 

P.S. Highly doubtful she was "leading him on". Remember, "she had no say in her marriage".

P.P.S. Running off with another man, especially a married one, is a pretty pointed statement that she doesn't want Robert. It's a huge F-U in his direction in fact. (If she ran off willingly, that is, which we don't know yet.)

[purple-eyes]

47 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Bullshit!

The reason why Ned remembers it is because he just visited a 15 year old whore who has Robert's 16th bastard and who believes he loves her and will return to her. Ned basically admits to himself then that Robert would have made Lyanna a bad husband, who was never going to change, that what she said back then was a correct assessment. Ned actually knows what happened to Lyanna, what happened between Lyanna and Rhaegar, what happened to every woman that Robert tumbledin the sack,when he thinks of it, more than you do.

According to your reasoning, Lyanna is not allowed to make up her mind about Robert's nature before she's married for 15 years to him. That's utter bull!

Your argument is called denial,because it is very inconvenient to you.

have no idea what your point is. people are changing all through life. you judge a young Robert based on the life of an old Robert. This is not fair. How do you know Robert will not be all right if he did not go through bloody war, did not become king, did marry Lyanna, did have Jon Arryn to help him? 

[ftheking]

19 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

you are wrong that Lyanna is simply an Arya type. Many people said Lyanna is a mixture of Sansa and Arya. She cried at Rhaegar's sad song and willing to abandon her family to pursue her true love with her handsome silver prince. This part is not Arya. It is so Sansa.

Isn't there a scene in the books in which Arya can't help but cry at a song and doesn't even get what's happening?
Somewhere in the forest? Anyone?

[sweetsunray]

11 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

have no idea what your point is. people are changing all through life. you judge a young Robert based on the life of an old Robert. This is not fair. How do you know Robert will not be all right if he did not go through bloody war, did not become king, did marry Lyanna, did have Jon Arryn to help him? 

Because Ned knows. Ned recognizes that nothing has changed. Robert was this way before his betrothal, during the betrothal, during the war, and after the war. Some people can change for the better, sometimes exactly because of hardships and pain. But the change must come from within. To make someone else responsible for it it is the coward's excuse, shifting blame and responsibility. 

[purple-eyes]

Just now, sweetsunray said:

Because Ned knows. Ned recognizes that nothing has changed. Robert was this way before his betrothal, during the betrothal, during the war, and after the war.

interesting, how much one person (childhood friend) can know another person's true nature? and more importantly, how can one person know how different this person will be if life is different? Does Ned know how Lyanna will be if she became a middle-aged woman and married Robert? 

 

[sweetsunray]

9 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

interesting, how much one person (childhood friend) can know another person's true nature? and more importantly, how can one person know how different this person will be if life is different? Does Ned know how Lyanna will be if she became a middle-aged woman and married Robert?

What Ned sees is the same bastard making story over and over again over the years. You can try to shapeshift it any way you want, but that's the bottom line. Robert made girls believe he was in love with them to get into their panties, fucking around and having bastards, and then left them out to dry, regardless of how young or old or how happy or how unhappy he was, whether he was warring or avoiding being king, whether he believed himself to be soon a happily married man or was in a toxic marriage.

And no, Lyanna isn't wrong for not buying "hypothetical changes and if-if-if-if"

[sweetsunray]

26 minutes ago, ftheking said:

Isn't there a scene in the books in which Arya can't help but cry at a song and doesn't even get what's happening?
Somewhere in the forest? Anyone?

Do you mean GoHH's Jenny of Oldstones or the Rains of Castamere at the Twns?

[WSmith84]

49 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

have no idea what your point is. people are changing all through life. you judge a young Robert based on the life of an old Robert. This is not fair. How do you know Robert will not be all right if he did not go through bloody war, did not become king, did marry Lyanna, did have Jon Arryn to help him? 

Young Robert still managed to sleep with an entire brothel-full of women during the Rebellion while his love was supposedly being raped. That's a pretty damning statement of Robert's character. Sex with someone who isn't your betrothed during the war is not in itself unforgivable, but an orgy pretty much is.

[sweetsunray]

39 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

Young Robert still managed to sleep with an entire brothel-full of women during the Rebellion while his love was supposedly being raped. That's a pretty damning statement of Robert's character. Sex with someone who isn't your betrothed during the war is not in itself unforgivable, but an orgy pretty much is.

And he calls those the "good old days" And then in a next paragraph he dares to lecture Ned about forgetting what Rhaegar did. And every time I read that, I think, well you sure as hell forgot it while you believed it was happening. Yes, it's very very damning behavior.

And I like Robert. But he should have gone to Essos and be a sellsword, with no responsibilities and no ties to anyone. He's got no business being any woman's betrothed or husband.

[Cas Stark]

2 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

have no idea what your point is. people are changing all through life. you judge a young Robert based on the life of an old Robert. This is not fair. How do you know Robert will not be all right if he did not go through bloody war, did not become king, did marry Lyanna, did have Jon Arryn to help him? 

Because Lyanna and Ned already told us.  Ned told us that Robert always liked his pleasures and had a great appetite for them.....true when he was young, true when he was old.  Lyanna tells us that she already knows Robert, despite his professed love for her, will not be capable of being faithful.  I don't doubt he would have tried hard to be the best husband he could for her, unlike Cersei, but he would never have been faithful to her.  Robert would have probably not fallen to the depths he did with Lyanna instead of Cersei as his wife, but he was always a philanderer and party boy.  

[Ygrain]

33 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

 Robert would have probably not fallen to the depths he did with Lyanna instead of Cersei as his wife, but he was always a philanderer and party boy.  

...or he might have fallen even deeper once his idol fell from the pedestal. Can you imagine Lyanna shutting up when he's drunk or whoring? Can you imagine her indulging in marital duties after she becomes disappointed with him? And can you imagine Robert acknowledging that the fault is with him? Absolutely no way, and there would come the day when Robert would force himself on her just like he did on Cersei, and blame it on the wine in the morning.

[sweetsunray]

2 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

...or he might have fallen even deeper once his idol fell from the pedestal. Can you imagine Lyanna shutting up when he's drunk or whoring? Can you imagine her indulging in marital duties after she becomes disappointed with him? And can you imagine Robert acknowledging that the fault is with him? Absolutely no way, and there would come the day when Robert would force himself on her just like he did on Cersei, and blame it on the wine in the morning.

[Cas Stark]

3 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

...or he might have fallen even deeper once his idol fell from the pedestal. Can you imagine Lyanna shutting up when he's drunk or whoring? Can you imagine her indulging in marital duties after she becomes disappointed with him? And can you imagine Robert acknowledging that the fault is with him? Absolutely no way, and there would come the day when Robert would force himself on her just like he did on Cersei, and blame it on the wine in the morning.

I don't see it that way.  There was already a bond between them through their brother, and Lyanna was a great rider, a beauty and an athlete.... so undoubtedly would have gone on hunts with Robert, unlike Cersei who always refused, her athleticism would have been something on which they could base a lot of things.  Also, bonus:  Lyanna not a borderline personality, either, LOL.  So, I am absolutely sure that Robert and Lyanna would have had a better marriage than he and Cersei.  But we also already know that she wasn't prepared to have a husband who had a lot of meaningless affairs, whether he loved her or not, and that she was more understanding of Robert's nature than he himself, or even Ned was.  But, I can't imagine it could have possibly turned toxic like it did with Cersei.

[Clegane'sPup]

On 5/30/2017 at 1:58 PM, Chris Mormont said:

Not sure if this question has already been asked, but while reading another thread it popped in my head.

We know for a fact that Ned found Lyanna covered in blood, and the widely held opinion is that this was due to childbirth. 

I love this WE.  It insinuates that here is a group consensus and acceptance.

On 5/30/2017 at 1:58 PM, Chris Mormont said:

However, what if after hearing the news that Rheagar was killed by Robert and faced with the realization that she would be sent back to Robert for marriage Lyanna decided to take her own life?

The implication is Layanna birthed Rhaegar's child. She was so distraught at the idea of being rescued, her child discovered, and then sent back to Robert that she somehow manages to kill herself after the baby is born. Not only that, she managed to stay alive until her brother arrived at the ToJ and dispensed of the guards. She also lived long enough to make Eddard promise sumthin'.

On 5/30/2017 at 1:58 PM, Chris Mormont said:

We know Lyanna was skeptical as to whether Robert would ever be faithful to one woman. 

She did mention that to her brother.

On 5/30/2017 at 1:58 PM, Chris Mormont said:

There is a lot of speculation that Lyanna was not kidnapped but instead ran away with Rheagar, got pregnant and had his child (Jon). 

Yes.

On 5/30/2017 at 1:58 PM, Chris Mormont said:

If that is the case, she will now have to marry the man who killed her love, and what about the baby? What will happen to her baby when Robert finds out who the father is?

Considering the fictional format I would think that Robert would kill the dragonspawn.

On 5/30/2017 at 1:58 PM, Chris Mormont said:

When Ned defeats Dayne, Lyanna decides she'd rather die than go back, so she slits her wrists or sticks a dagger in her belly.

Sometimes internet shit scares me.

[purple-eyes]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

Because Lyanna and Ned already told us.  Ned told us that Robert always liked his pleasures and had a great appetite for them.....true when he was young, true when he was old.  Lyanna tells us that she already knows Robert, despite his professed love for her, will not be capable of being faithful.  I don't doubt he would have tried hard to be the best husband he could for her, unlike Cersei, but he would never have been faithful to her.  Robert would have probably not fallen to the depths he did with Lyanna instead of Cersei as his wife, but he was always a philanderer and party boy.  

So whatever Lyanna and Ned told you about Robert is the true Robert and their words on him hold true forever even he has a different life? Seriously? Who do you think they are? Two Gods who know past, present and future? 

Who can say you know another person truly enough to predict everything about him/her? Parent? spouse? probably not. How many people said they finally knew about their spouses at divorce? 

Then how about a childhood friend? a woman who has not met him much at all? How much your childhood buddy knows about you now and can he or she predict what type of adult you will become? 

It is specifically ridiculous to claim that Lyanna smartly saw Robert's true nature by just hearing about him having a bastard in Vale. This is judgemental. What if Cat said same thing about Ned on Jon Snow? 

Environment and all kinds of events which happened to us shaped us. Robert might be a different Robert if he did not go through what he went through. He turned out to be like this later did not mean he would become this no matter what happens. 

 

 

[Cas Stark]

Robert was always a womanizer.  He always liked to drink and party.  Ned tells us this and so does Lyanna.  What's so hard to believe about his best friend and his fiance having insight into his character?  He had all of these traits and behaviors BEFORE any tragedy struck him in life, before the war, before Lyanna's death, before his marriage to Cersei.  

[zandru]

9 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

So whatever Lyanna and Ned told you about Robert is the true Robert and their words on him hold true forever even he has a different life? Seriously? Who do you think they are? Two Gods who know past, present and future? 

Well, what Lyanna and Ned said about Robert has been borne out many times by Robert's subsequent deeds. It wasn't just that "he" had just the one bastard - he bedded as many women as he could lay his hands on, since he was old enough to do so. This was Ned's recollection. Ned also noticed that Robert had continued the practice over a decade later at Winterfell. We learn of Robert's innumerable beddings throughout "Robert's War" - in which Robert was engaged to be married, and supposedly wroth about ANOTHER man daring to bed "his" betrothed.

13 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

t is specifically ridiculous to claim that Lyanna smartly saw Robert's true nature by just hearing about him having a bastard in Vale.

It wasn't just the one bastard. It was an endless pattern of behavior, and Lyanna knew it. Ned was her brother and all indications are that they were close, and talked. Who knows? For all we can tell, Robert was off rolling in the hay immediately after the betrothal. We can guess - but don't know - that he avoided celibacy at the big Harrenhall meet, with Lyanna present. This will be interesting to find out, when GRRM graces us with the next book.

And, as far as we've been able to tell from the books, Robert saw no problem with his behavior. He never was much of a thinker. And THAT would be another good reason for a maid to want to reject him, if possible.