Did Lyanna commit suicide?

[Wolfgirly]

7 hours ago, zandru said:

Well, consider the ages, though. Lyanna was "a woman flowered", as they say, when she and Rhaegar hit it off. Weird things happen at "flowering"; crazy hormones  surge through a girl's body, making those scrawny, pimply young guys suddenly look attractive and deeply desireable. Arya hasn't yet gotten to that age. She's at the "sexually neutral" stage of childhood, biologically speaking. We - and she - can't tell yet how her body will be affecting her mind in a few more years. It isn't fair to compare.

 

I was replying to Purple Eyes who mentioned Arya and Lyanna. People have said both are alike.

[zandru]

1 minute ago, Wolfgirly said:

I was replying to Purple Eyes who mentioned Arya and Lyanna. People have said both are alike.

Sorry! Clearly, Arya and Lyanna have diverged somewhat, considering what Arya has been through since she was 8, which Lyanna seems fortunate to have missed. They'll continue diverging, looks like.

[Wolfgirly]

1 minute ago, zandru said:

Sorry! Clearly, Arya and Lyanna have diverged somewhat, considering what Arya has been through since she was 8, which Lyanna seems fortunate to have missed. They'll continue diverging, looks like.

Yes and I believe both Arya and Lyanna are different anyway.

[Victor Newman]

Sure, suicide is a definite possibility.  Ofcourse there was going to be a fight.  The three kg were explicit.  They don't bend the knee and won't bend the knee to Robert.  Their master was murdered by Jaime.  They will not rest until the Usurper is removed from power.  There was going to be a fight no matter where they meet. 

[Ygrain]

7 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I don't see it that way.  There was already a bond between them through their brother, and Lyanna was a great rider, a beauty and an athlete.... so undoubtedly would have gone on hunts with Robert, unlike Cersei who always refused, her athleticism would have been something on which they could base a lot of things.  Also, bonus:  Lyanna not a borderline personality, either, LOL.  So, I am absolutely sure that Robert and Lyanna would have had a better marriage than he and Cersei.  But we also already know that she wasn't prepared to have a husband who had a lot of meaningless affairs, whether he loved her or not, and that she was more understanding of Robert's nature than he himself, or even Ned was.  But, I can't imagine it could have possibly turned toxic like it did with Cersei.

Remember: while Lyanna figured out Robert, Robert, according to Ned, never really knew her, he saw the beauty, not the steel beneath. The common interest would certainly help and the beginning of their marriage might be quite okay, but that would not be enough to keep Robert from whoring or drinking. Lyanna would confront him, he would promise to be a better man and profess a love undying, and forget about it (per Ned) or blame it on the wine. Rinse and repeat. Such a pattern of behaviour cannot be balanced by a common interest. Ever. Add to it shunning the responsibility of running the realm, which, unlike Cersei, Lyanna wouldn't have ignored, and you have a basis for a profound marital conflict, which, given the initial relatively good stage and emotional engagement on both parts, can go even sourer than relationship of two people who are basically uninterested in each other. Yeah, Lyanna not being a psychopathic bitch would certainly be a mitigating factor, but Robert being refused by the woman who he supposedly loved had a potential of waking an inner demon or two.

[Hodor the Articulate]

Suicide seems out of character for Lyanna. She's described as wild and strong willed. That type of personality is more likely to lash out than turn inward when stressed. At the news of her lover's death, she'd probably go and kill Robert, not herself.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

14 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

You just answered your own question. She couldn't tell Robert to his face because "she had no say in her marriage". 

P.S. Highly doubtful she was "leading him on". Remember, "she had no say in her marriage".

P.P.S. Running off with another man, especially a married one, is a pretty pointed statement that she doesn't want Robert. It's a huge F-U in his direction in fact. (If she ran off willingly, that is, which we don't know yet.)

So she's bold enough to run away with a married Prince who has two kids(the huge F-U in his direction) but not bold enough to tell Robert to his face she doesn't want to marry him? I mean if Olenna Tyrell could get out of her marriage (to a Targaryen Prince no less) then why can't Lyanna try to get out of hers? She could tell Robert she'd be a terrible wife, doesn't want to have children, isn't attracted to men. Tell him anything to get out of this betrothal that she does't want. Sure Robert may laugh it off but at least she would have tried.

It seems like she went along with the betrothal to Robert and pretended to be ok with it till the very last second. 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

10 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

He had all of these traits and behaviors BEFORE any tragedy struck him in life, before the war, before Lyanna's death, before his marriage to Cersei.  

To be fair to Robert your missing one pretty big tragedy in his life which is when he watched his parents die in 278 AC. Which was before Mya Stone was conceived I believe, though I could be wrong.

[Prof. Cecily]

10 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

...It is specifically ridiculous to claim that Lyanna smartly saw Robert's true nature by just hearing about him having a bastard in Vale. This is judgemental. What if Cat said same thing about Ned on Jon Snow? ...

 

 

We have Lyanna's own words about her judgement of Robert.

Quote

"Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature."

A Game of Thrones - Eddard IX

 

Just as we have Cat's own impressions about Ned on the subject of Jon Snow

Quote

Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs.

He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

That cut deep.

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn II

Whatever we think is reasonable or just for any given character has to be founded on what the author has actually written.

And our speculation is even more conditioned by the fact there are two more books in the saga yet to be published!

 

13 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

So she's bold enough to run away with a married Prince who has two kids(the huge F-U in his direction) but not bold enough to tell Robert to his face she doesn't want to marry him? I mean if Olenna Tyrell could get out of her marriage (to a Targaryen Prince no less) then why can't Lyanna try to get out of hers? She could tell Robert she'd be a terrible wife, doesn't want to have children, isn't attracted to men. Tell him anything to get out of this betrothal that she does't want. Sure Robert may laugh it off but at least she would have tried.

It seems like she went along with the betrothal to Robert and pretended to be ok with it till the very last second. 

I'd never taken into account the Olenna Tyrell example. Well spotted.

[Ygrain]

Except that we learn that with Olenna, it was the other way round - her Targaryen prince wasn't interested, so it's purely sour grapes on her part.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

5 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

I'd never taken into account the Olenna Tyrell example. Well spotted.

Thanks.

However to be perfectly honest Olenna Tyrell claimed she did everything she could to put a stop to it. Maesters say Prince Daeron was the one who in fact ended it. Though we don't know if that's because Olenna made her feelings towards him known or not. It was known Prince Daeron was in love with a Knight. So Olenna probably wasn't going to be happy being married to him. Though it's not uncommon for high born men to still marry even when they are not attracted to the opposite sex. I always had a theory Olenna blackmailed him into breaking the betrothal somehow but of course that's just my theory.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

11 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Except that we learn that with Olenna, it was the other way round - her Targaryen prince wasn't interested, so it's purely sour grapes on her part.

Yeah it's her word verses a Maesters. Daeron still might have wanted to marry her to hide his relationship with the Knight. Olenna may have known about it and in fact did everything she could to get out of it. Just because in the end it was him who called off the marriage doesn't mean she was lying about trying to end it herself. 

Considering the Lord of Storm's End went into Rebellion when the marriage to his daughter and a Targaryen was ended I'd say Olenna took the news very well.

[sweetsunray]

Well it all depends on the families in question, doesn't it? You have fathers who are willing to take their daughters' happiness in an emotional sense into account, others much less so. Take for instance Ned Stark and Rickard. Ned gives Needle back to Arya and hires someone to teach her how to properly handle the blade. But Ned also realizes that his father would never have allowed Lyanna this. We know Lyanna did stick fight from Bran's vision, but she trained out of sight. So, she was fierce, but she had learned since a young age to not count on her father's understanding or support. All in all, Lyanna apparently relied on pretending not to rock the boat, while doing as she liked out of sight. Obviously, she airs her doubts and misgivings to Ned, who is the more understanding of her elder brothers. And while he does care, he waves it off as "it'll be all right. He loves you." So, she finds no actual support with Ned to stand up against her father.

What then is the use of telling Robert to his face that she doesn't want him? Obviously Robert and her father arranged the betrothal without ever asking even how she felt about it. If they didn't care beforehand, then they won't care either if she does airs her misgivings to either of them. Except once she expresses her preference not to marry Robert at all, they are on the alert that the bride-to-be is rebelling. What would happen next then? She'd either get house-arrest or is sent of as cupbearer to Storm's End with people guarding her. But hey, at least she did the "right thing by Robert", hmmm?

Olenna's relationship with her father or parents likely was different. She had at least one parent with influence who cared and listened to her. Olenna would have known this since she was a child, which adult to turn to. Kids always figure this out from a young age. And while Olenna was bold enough back then, notice that neither Olenna nor Margaery try to talk to Mace about these things. They both know that Mace won't listen. And what do they do? They use a subterfuge tactic, including poisoning Margaery's newlywed husband.

An analogy - In Belgium more people were collaborators with the Germans during WWII than there were in the Netherlands, and yet more Jewish people were rescued in Belgium than in the Netherlands? Exactly because of sutberfuge tactics. A significant number of those Belgian collaborators were only collaborators for their survival, rather than ideology, and they simultaneoulsy closed their eyes on what the resistance did, or actually worked with the resistance without the Germans knowing it (and yes, plenty of collaborators were ideologic collaborators too). But in the Netherlands the number of people doing that was far lower. They either voiced their opposition and were shot, or they fully collaborated. You could argue that this wasn't the "honorful" thing to do by the Belgians, wasn't "fair" to the Germans. But hey, it was far more effective. And why such a difference? Because the Belgian region has been occupied by foreigners since Caesar, while the Netherlands never really knew such occupation before WWII. And 2000 years of occupation by foreigners, fighting each other, created a culture of saying yes and still do as you like, because before long the occupational force will be kicked out by someone else again.

Openly standing up for your beliefs, desires and wishes and what you think is right only works if the one you're doing that to actually cares about your beliefs, desires and wishes. If they don't, the sole one who'll pay for it will be you. It's true on a governmental level as it is on a family dynamics level.

[Prof. Cecily]

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

 

[Prof. Cecily]

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Except that we learn that with Olenna, it was the other way round - her Targaryen prince wasn't interested, so it's purely sour grapes on her part.

Sour grapes?

I'm not so sure- survival tactics sounds more like it to me.

Only consider- any child she'd have had within the marriage could have  been seen as the fruit of an adulterous relation.

She'd have always been in danger of charges of adultery or witchcraft.

No, not my idea of a good time.

Edited to add:

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Openly standing up for your beliefs, desires and wishes and what you think is right only works if the one you're doing that to actually cares about your beliefs, desires and wishes. If they don't, the sole one who'll pay for it will be you. It's true on a governmental level as it is on a family dynamics level.

Bravo. It's not about being insincere, it's about dodging the traffic.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Openly standing up for your beliefs, desires and wishes and what you think is right only works if the one you're doing that to actually cares about your beliefs, desires and wishes. If they don't, the sole one who'll pay for it will be you. It's true on a governmental level as it is on a family dynamics level.

Well that shatters the way I pictured the Starks family dynamics, especially after Lyarra died. They don't sound too much like a "pack" to me if they would have locked Lyanna away at Storm's End for voicing her displeasure with her betrothal. 

[sweetsunray]

58 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Well that shatters the way I pictured the Starks family dynamics, especially after Lyarra died. They don't sound too much like a "pack" to me if they would have locked Lyanna away at Storm's End for voicing her displeasure with her betrothal. 

Ned was in the Vale, Benjen was a boy younger than Lyanna. I never said "they would lock Lyanna away." I specifically talked about "father", and parent-child relationship. Since when is Rickard Stark a "they" or a "pack"? He isn't. Hence, your argument is a straw-man argument.

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Sour grapes?

I'm not so sure- survival tactics sounds more like it to me.

Only consider- any child she'd have had within the marriage could have  been seen as the fruit of an adulterous relation.

She'd have always been in danger of charges of adultery or witchcraft.

No, not my idea of a good time.

I meant her attitude years later - she was spurned but she claimed that she didn't want him, anyway, and that she was the one doing the spurning. Also, Redwyne. Sour grapes

[Prof. Cecily]

7 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

I meant her attitude years later - she was spurned but she claimed that she didn't want him, anyway, and that she was the one doing the spurning. Also, Redwyne. Sour grapes

Ha! That only shows how bad the wine is  in the Czech Republic.

Come to Madrid and I'll take you to bodegas and tascas where wine is not sour grapes, but rather immortalised grapes.

 

But back to the topic- Olenna would not be the first old lady to ...reinvent her past.

[Ygrain]

 

15 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Ha! That only shows how bad the wine is  in the Czech Republic.

Come to Madrid and I'll take you to bodegas and tascas where wine is not sour grapes, but rather immortalised grapes.

Pffft, Northern Bohemia, perhaps. But here, in Southern Moravia, we have excellent white wines! Pálava totally rules!

 

15 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

But back to the topic- Olenna would not be the first old lady to ...reinvent her past.

Yep :-) - Just to make sure: I meant "sour grapes" as the psychological coping mechanism of demeaning what one cannot get :-)