Did Lyanna commit suicide?

[kissdbyfire]

19 minutes ago, zandru said:

Thanks for this detail! I'd forgotten.

Let's also note the "fear" in her eyes. To me, that sounds like someone desperately worried, not someone romantically longing for the blessed release of death, and subsequent re-uniting with her beloved.

No, but surely someone very afraid of what might happen to her newborn baby. 

[purple-eyes]

48 minutes ago, zandru said:

Thanks for this detail! I'd forgotten.

Let's also note the "fear" in her eyes. To me, that sounds like someone desperately worried, not someone romantically longing for the blessed release of death, and subsequent re-uniting with her beloved.

Maybe she feared that how she should face her dead father and brother? or she feared she had to meet Rhaegar's dead wife and two young children? or she feared to meet Ned's six dead friends who died for pointlessly "rescuing" her from the "rapist" who she actually loved crazily and eloped happily with? she has a lot of things to explain to dead people

[zandru]

48 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

she has a lot of things to explain to dead people

Which, to my simple mind, would be good incentive to try NOT to join all those dead people just yet. No matter how depressed one may get, if the prospect of death is so terrifying, one will probably try to avoid it. Your mileage may vary.

[purple-eyes]

1 hour ago, zandru said:

Which, to my simple mind, would be good incentive to try NOT to join all those dead people just yet. No matter how depressed one may get, if the prospect of death is so terrifying, one will probably try to avoid it. Your mileage may vary.

Well, valar moghulis. Lyanna probably understood this. 

[sweetsunray]

 

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

No, but surely someone very afraid of what might happen to her newborn baby. 

agreed, as Ned's promise eases the fear.

[ravenous reader]

No.  But she may have sacrificed herself in service of another.  Self-sacrifice is not the same thing as suicide.

[Lord Wraith]

18 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

No.  But she may have sacrificed herself in service of another.  Self-sacrifice is not the same thing as suicide.

I agree it doesn't seem in her character from what we know of Lyanna.

[ravenous reader]

3 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

I agree it doesn't seem in her character from what we know of Lyanna.

No, it's a silly notion, born of GRRM's silly game-playing, so withholding is he that we the prentices are in free fall in the darkness.  Hi the most sentimental poster reader in the forums!  

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Lyanna is definitely no Arya. Arya at age 9 fought the Crown Prince of the 7 Kingdoms and sicced her direwolf on him just to save a peasant boy. Meanwhile the bold and wild Lyanna wouldn't even tell Robert at Harrenhal that she didn't want to marry him. Yes I understand she had no say in her marriage but what is the point of having "wolf blood" if she can't tell Robert to his face she doesn't want him. I understand it would be very rude but it's better then leading him on. If Brandon's "wolf blood" could make him bold and stupid enough to ride to King's Landing to demand the Crown Prince's head why can't Lyanna find it in her to tell Bobby B she just wants to be friends.

 

 

[zandru]

1 hour ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Meanwhile the bold and wild Lyanna wouldn't even tell Robert at Harrenhal that she didn't want to marry him.

Well, maybe. Don't forget, there's very little that we actually KNOW about the whole Lyanna affair. As far as we can guess so far, Lyanna also declined to fight Robert Baratheon in single combat, instead vanishing and leaving behind her "Laughing Tree" shield. (Personally, I'd call that "smart", but you can go with "craven", if it suits you.)

I strongly doubt that Lyanna was ready to ditch her betrothment at Harranhal. Seems like it took some months for the Rhaegar connection to fully develop from initial attraction to eloping. In this time, Lyanna may very well have gone to her father, Lord Rickard, to let him know of her concerns about Robert Baratheon. It's likely that Rickard would have been concerned mostly with the political implications of the planned marriage; he may have changed his mind after Lyanna disappeared with Rhaegar, but we don't know that, either. Rickard didn't live long enough, thanks to good old Brandon and Aerys.

We also don't know whether Lyanna tried to communicate with Robert. Had she hinted around, hoping he'd figure it out, he could have just not noticed, big dumb lug that he was. Also, after Harranhal, both would have gone back to the family castles, nearly on opposite ends of the continent. Not like they could just get together at the local Starbucks, right? And any written communication would have seemed cold, formal - and well documented via the maesters and lords. Not hardly a "discussion".

Back to Arya - there's a difference between a wild, impulsive attempt to rescue a friend who's being stabbed with a sword - and the slow motion, highly political act of postponing or stopping a marriage planned at the highest levels of government. Apples and oranges.

[purple-eyes]

54 minutes ago, zandru said:

Well, maybe. Don't forget, there's very little that we actually KNOW about the whole Lyanna affair. As far as we can guess so far, Lyanna also declined to fight Robert Baratheon in single combat, instead vanishing and leaving behind her "Laughing Tree" shield. (Personally, I'd call that "smart", but you can go with "craven", if it suits you.)

I strongly doubt that Lyanna was ready to ditch her betrothment at Harranhal. Seems like it took some months for the Rhaegar connection to fully develop from initial attraction to eloping. In this time, Lyanna may very well have gone to her father, Lord Rickard, to let him know of her concerns about Robert Baratheon. It's likely that Rickard would have been concerned mostly with the political implications of the planned marriage; he may have changed his mind after Lyanna disappeared with Rhaegar, but we don't know that, either. Rickard didn't live long enough, thanks to good old Brandon and Aerys.

We also don't know whether Lyanna tried to communicate with Robert. Had she hinted around, hoping he'd figure it out, he could have just not noticed, big dumb lug that he was. Also, after Harranhal, both would have gone back to the family castles, nearly on opposite ends of the continent. Not like they could just get together at the local Starbucks, right? And any written communication would have seemed cold, formal - and well documented via the maesters and lords. Not hardly a "discussion".

Back to Arya - there's a difference between a wild, impulsive attempt to rescue a friend who's being stabbed with a sword - and the slow motion, highly political act of postponing or stopping a marriage planned at the highest levels of government. Apples and oranges.

I disagree with you on pretty much everything. Plus I am not sure what you meant by saying Lyanna left behind her shield in stead of having duel with Robert. I thought Aerys sent out Rhaegar to look for her. 

You tried to make up all kinds of excuses (such as Lyanna might tell her daddy that she hated Robert, or Lyanna might hint to Robert that she hated him) for Lyanna, we got it. However, the facts we got from GRRM are: 

1. Robert had no idea that Lyanna did not love him and she would rather sleep with Rhaegar than him. (so your bold and wild Lyanna is only bold enough to beat squire boys, not bold enough to speak herself in front of Robert, such as: hey, you idiot, if you want to marry me, then stop sleeping around! ) 

2. Brandon or Rickard or Ned had no idea about Lyanna's situation until Ned found her in the TOJ. (so your bold smart and wild Lyanna did not want to send any information to her family over one whole year. Be careful, if your bold smart and wild Lyanna really wants to send a message to Stark, Rhaegar or KG or anybody else would not be able to stop her, say: Rhaegar you must send my family a message, otherwise I will throw myself from this freaking tower with your destiny baby in my belly! and I think Rhaegar will do it) 

3. Lyanna chose to sleep with Rhaegar who is a married man with two young children, yet she was not happy with Robert to sleep with some random women before marriage. (double standard even in our modern time. which one do you think is better: a single dude who sleep with girls here and there ? or a woman who already engaged to a man ran away and slept with a married man who had two very young babies at home? and this man happened to be her fiancee's cousin? ) 

 

 

 

[sweetsunray]

9 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

2. Brandon or Rickard or Ned had no idea about Lyanna's situation until Ned found her in the TOJ.

You can't be sure what Richard knew or didn't know. Ned doesn't know anything, because he's in the Vale. Ned doesn't know what Rickard knew until ToJ. Brandon obviously knew nothing based on his behavior. But Rickard? Apparently he isn't remembered for making accusations or demands about Rhaegar or Lyanna.

[sweetsunray]

13 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

a single dude who sleep with girls here and there ? or a woman who already engaged to a man ran away and slept with a married man who had two very young babies at home?

LOL, talk about double standard - the woman's engaged... but her fiance is called a "single dude sleeping with girls here and there".

[Wolfgirly]

18 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

you are wrong that Lyanna is simply an Arya type. Many people said Lyanna is a mixture of Sansa and Arya. She cried at Rhaegar's sad song and willing to abandon her family to pursue her true love with her handsome silver prince. This part is not Arya. It is so Sansa. 

Of course Ned only said "promise me". GRRM would not let him say anything on Lyanna's love in Rhaegar. 

GRRM is a romantic person (himself said it) and Lyanna is his symbol of romance and his queen of love and beauty. She is pretty much his Mary Sue. Briefly, a country had to be destoryed for her, a war had to be raised in her name. Most attractive noble men have to fight for her. most beautiful and noble women have to abandoned and humiliated for her. thousands of men had to ded for her. beautiful ship had to be built and named for her......

I hope you get the point. Lyanna is the love goddness of this book and her death is extremely beautiful with tons of rose petals in the sky. Her death is not just simply because of short of antibiotics. 

 

I agree with you that Lyanna is not totally like Arya.  She was a tomboy who became in love with the magical prince.  

[purple-eyes]

35 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

LOL, talk about double standard - the woman's engaged... but her fiance is called a "single dude sleeping with girls here and there".

I know some lyanna fan would say this. Lyanna's betroth was announced after Mya Stone was born. Therefore at least according to Lyanna's knowledge, Robert got a bastard before their betrothal. Umm, still sounds better than sleep with another woman's husband and father of two babies. 

[purple-eyes]

44 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

You can't be sure what Richard knew or didn't know. Ned doesn't know anything, because he's in the Vale. Ned doesn't know what Rickard knew until ToJ. Brandon obviously knew nothing based on his behavior. But Rickard? Apparently he isn't remembered for making accusations or demands about Rhaegar or Lyanna.

well, there is nothing in the book to suggest Rickard knew Lyanna's affair with Rhaegar. 

if you say he is not remembered for making things abot them, then I can put in the opposite way: If Rickard knew his daughter happily in love with Rhaegar and they are two lovebirds in honeymoon (or even married as some people imagined) , he should have raised this to seek mercy for Brandon and himself. 

Seriously, you think Lyanna will be able to elope if Rickard knew that she is in crazy love with Rhaegar? he probably wanted to lock his wild daughter in the Winterfell. 

[Wolfgirly]

I could first assume that she died of complications of childbirth. Also saying this, she might've given up her will to live anymore because Rhaegar was gone. 

[zandru]

15 minutes ago, Wolfgirly said:

I agree with you that Lyanna is not totally like Arya.  She was a tomboy who became in love with the magical prince.  

Well, consider the ages, though. Lyanna was "a woman flowered", as they say, when she and Rhaegar hit it off. Weird things happen at "flowering"; crazy hormones  surge through a girl's body, making those scrawny, pimply young guys suddenly look attractive and deeply desireable. Arya hasn't yet gotten to that age. She's at the "sexually neutral" stage of childhood, biologically speaking. We - and she - can't tell yet how her body will be affecting her mind in a few more years. It isn't fair to compare.

1 hour ago, purple-eyes said:

You tried to make up all kinds of excuses

I think I get it. You hate Lyanna. Well, let's agree to disagree. I, for one, would like to learn a lot more about her, Rhaegar, and the whole political situation at that time. So much is still speculation (only George RR knows, and he may not have worked out all the details yet himself!)

[Dorian Martell's son]

22 hours ago, Chris Mormont said:

I am not promoting this theory as fact or arguing for its acceptance, just wondering what other people think.\

Nope 

[sweetsunray]

21 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

I know some lyanna fan would say this. Lyanna's betroth was announced after Mya Stone was born. Therefore at least according to Lyanna's knowledge, Robert got a bastard before their betrothal. Umm, still sounds better than sleep with another woman's husband and father of two babies. 

Whether or not I'm a fan of Lyanna is beside the point.

You're deliberately referencing Lyanna in general as a woman betrothed, but not Robert. Mya Stone is only the first of many bastards, several of which were fathered by Robert while he claims to be fighting to get his betrothed back, who he believes is being raped. So, he's a betrothed man who sleeps around while believing the woman he claims to love is being raped a thousand times. If he doesn't mind sleeping around while he believes his betrothed is being raped, I'm pretty sure he doesn't mind sleeping around his betrothed while she's preparing for her wedding to him.

You could at least be honest and recognize this in the way you refer to Robert's sleeping around, rather than handwaving it away with "Oh Mya Stone was born before the betrothal he arranged with her father himself was publically announced". 

Furthermore, nowhere in that post did I defend Lyanna, nor did I say that in your scenario she's not applying double standards. What I'm saying is that you yourself are creating a double standard. 

What I will say is that just because she might have chosen Rheagar - a married man and father of 2 - over Robert, and that may be a double standard, that still doesn't make Robert a betrothed worth defending or whitewashing. So, no, Robert certainly is no better than Rhaegar imo. And as a husband he's certainly indefensible: marital rape, fathering even more bastards as father of 3, orgies, looking forward to set aside his wife to get a new 14 year old version... sure Lyanna is the worst person ever to not want to marry him.

That Rhaegar had an affair while married and as father of 2, doesn't make Robert a better man.