Did Lyanna commit suicide?

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Ned tells Lyanna Robert will love her and Lyanna says that love would be nice. She doesn't scoff at him and tell him Robert doesn't know how to love. Ned who seems like a morally good person loves Robert as a brother and I don't see him being best buds with a jerk.

And Ned Stark is blind to the depth of the flaws in Robert's character. At the start of aGoT, Ned thinks Robert loved Lya even more than he loved her. And what is that based on? On words alone, because most of his behavior while she is alive contradicts it. It's not until Robert orders Lady to be killed that Ned starts to have misgivings about Robert, until at the end Ned can say "you weren't as bad a king as Aerys II". He sure as hell doesn't think of Robert anymore as the man who loved Lyanna the most. No, in that respect he tells Robert "he only saw Lyanna's beauty" and thinks ill of his whoring.

Robert is not entirely a jerk. He loves Ned Stark (bromance type of love) and very loyal to Ned. He is likely the best friend another man might have. Ned Stark confused Robert-the-best-buddy with Robert-the-man-who-shouldn't-marry-any-woman-let-alone-your-sister.

As for bias - I don't actually dislike the character. I think he should have ridden off for Essos and sell his sword to a company. He'd be an awesome army bro imo who'd die for his comrades, and certainly has something lovable in that sense. But he's neither king nor husband material. Who is the biased reader - the reader who loves him for what he's good at, but has no issue admitting what he's horrible at? Or the reader who uses double standards to whitewash his serious failings?

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

How do you both know they never exchanged any words at Harrenhal? We don't hear of Robert dancing with anyone nor Lyanna so they may have danced with each other. Robert had no way of knowing that Harrenhal would be the last time he saw her before the wedding as well.

Did they dance before or after he was busy getting himself dead drunk?

Also, do realize: the author chooses to show some situations for a reason. He didn't show us Robert and Lyanna having a bonding time, he showed us him indulging in what he likes, with no regard to Lyanna. And no, engaging in drinking contests while ignoring one's betrothed is not a standard behaviour, the behaviour that he is supposed to exhibit is one that Joffrey uses to charm Sansa: talking to her, serving her food and the like.

[Prof. Cecily]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Spoiler

 

Lyanna expressed more displeasure with her betrothal in what Ned remembers than Dany expressed.

For Dany we even have less than that, only a small, thin voice, without much reasoning.

For Lyanna we get an actual rationale. The fact that Ned tries to reassure Lyanna implies he knows she is not pleased with the match, and he also knew then and there that he failed to convince her otherwise.

Seems to me you are arguing that unless a woman doesn't say 'No! I don't want to" it's not to be considered "displeasure". In other words, to you, "not saying no = consent". For me "consent" = "saying yes". It is known to the reader that Lyanna didn't want to marry Robert, as much as we know it of the other characters.

Cersei - she has 3 children and is queen-dowager-regent, and a woman in her 30s, who has lived the past 14 years away from parental control. I hope you do understand that a woman in her 30s is differently assertive than a girl of 13-14. And what did it get her? Cersei is made to shut up pretty fast too and she was to be shipped off and about to be separated from her children.

Lysa - you were correct she stayed a while longer in RR, but checking the quotes (in Cat's chapters) I can't really find even a flashback quote of Lysa protesting against the marriage. And not even Cat seems aware of Lysa not wanting to marry Jon Arryn, let alone that she wanted to marry LF and had an affair with him. It's only at Hoster Tully's deathbed in aSoS that Cat realizes that Jon Arryn was blackmailed into the marriage (note that Cat thinks Jon Arryn was blackmailed into it for the swords, not Lyasa). So, I'm not so sure where you get the idea that Lysa is know to have stood up against the match. All you have are words from Lysa years after the fact to Sansa that imply Lysa never wanted him, always wanted another.... but in fact the quote shows quite clearly that Lysa never gave even a peep against marrying Jon Arryn.

 

 

Saying "I should have refused him" means "I did not refuse him while I did not want him".The only topic of discussion and vocal disagreement between Lysa and Hoster had been her airing her preference for LF, before the match is made between Lysa and Jon Arryn. And that falls in line with Hostery Tully's remorse at his deathbed - that he forced an abortion on her, not a marriage. Catelyn also remembers Lysa as being happy initially. More, at the start of aGoT, Cat is sure that Lysa is grieving the loss of Jon Arryn. Cat concludes that Hoster "made him take her", not "made her take him". So, you can scratch her out of your list.  

 

Arianne - that's actually a very specific case. Doran proposed matches he knew she would refuse beforehand, and wanted Arianne to refuse them. So, here we have an explicit dynamic of a father and daughter simply going through the motions of appearing to be making matches, both knowing and wanting them to not become real. Meanwhile, a match was made between Airanne and Viserys, without her knowing of it, until Viserys was dead. Arianne never actually had a chance to protest her actual betrothal, nor did she ever meet Viserys for us to know what Arianne would have thought of him. 

So, you are left with only one comparable case and that is Olenna. One woman out of the thousands, where the information on who refused whom is muddled and unclear because we have two opposing claims. There is NO culture of women being heard or opposing the matches being made over their heads. So, you are pushing modern break-up conduct onto Lyanna, while you keep defending Robert for behaving and acting within his culture's customs. You're using double standards and weighing by two measures, and on a false comparison list. If you're going to judge Lyanna on modern cultural conduct, then so should you judge Robert in this way. If you don't want to judge Robert by a modern standard, then you shouldn't be judging Lyanna on it either, and the one possible exception is a false argument to introduce the modern standard on one of the two parties alone. Because if Olenna counts as precedent to judge Lyanna by, then so should the men who court a woman to try and get her consent along with her father be a precedent for Robert's behavior.

Here's a list of men we know who court the woman before asking the father - Doran & Mellario, Jorah & Lynesse, Ser Hyle & Brienne, Robb & Jeyne Westerling (well he bedded her and she was willing). The men who court their betrothed after the match is made, even if it is doubtful that the man or boy in question is eager for the match: Joffrey courts Sansa, Brandon courts Catelyn, Harry Hardyng has started to court Alayne (after a very bad start).

 

 

What fun, to compare our answers!

I was glad to you picked on poor Dany's feeble protest to her wedding- I'd missed that entirely

[Prof. Cecily]

On 6/2/2017 at 7:59 PM, Chris Mormont said:

I'm  glad my topic received so many responses, but I noticed that a lot of the responses were negative towards Lyanna due to her lack of conviction around arguing against her betrothal to Robert.  There were also many comments over what she did or didn't tell Ned when he got to the TOJ.

Our only insight into the events that took place are a fever dream and a few third party stories.  

My question was whether anyone else thought Lyanna may have committed suicide.  The one piece of evidence against this which was mentioned much earlier in the thread was Ned's mention that Lyanna had a fever, thus showing that she was weak and sick.  That to me makes me believe that she did not commit suicide.  

Hang on.

Let's go back to your OP:

On 5/30/2017 at 7:58 PM, Chris Mormont said:

Not sure if this question has already been asked, but while reading another thread it popped in my head.

We know for a fact that Ned found Lyanna covered in blood, and the widely held opinion is that this was due to childbirth.  However, what if after hearing the news that Rheagar was killed by Robert and faced with the realization that she would be sent back to Robert for marriage Lyanna decided to take her own life?

We know Lyanna was skeptical as to whether Robert would ever be faithful to one woman.  There is a lot of speculation that Lyanna was not kidnapped but instead ran away with Rheagar, got pregnant and had his child (Jon).  If that is the case, she will now have to marry the man who killed her love, and what about the baby? What will happen to her baby when Robert finds out who the father is?

When Ned defeats Dayne, Lyanna decides she'd rather die than go back, so she slits her wrists or sticks a dagger in her belly.  Ned arrives at her chamber just in time for her to make him promise to care for her baby and protect him from Robert.

This could explain why the Kingsguard is guarding the TOJ, because the baby could have been born weeks or months earlier and would be, in their eyes the new king.  

I am not promoting this theory as fact or arguing for its acceptance, just wondering what other people think.

 

I think it's only fair to address the opinions of others who've answered and discussed the many points in your OP, rather than dismiss them as 

Quote

negative towards Lyanna

As far as I can see, the posters here have taken a lot of trouble and interest in thinking through what could have resulted in that possible outcome: Lyanna's suicide, which you propose as a topic of discussion.

You asked for people's opinions and as you can see, we're still in the middle of analysing the factors in this complex  situation. 

Or did you think of this thread as a poll, rather than a discussion?

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Prof. Cecily said:

What fun, to compare our answers!

I was glad to you picked on poor Dany's feeble protest to her wedding- I'd missed that entirely

Yes, I posted my reply and I think you cross-posted with me, and your was a complementary read.

I remembered that Dany is fearful of Drogo at the end of her first chapter when she's about to be introduced to him and that Viserys hurt her arm there, and how he'd give her to a whole khalasar if it would give him an army in repsonse to her fear.

I missed out on Lysa's weepy behavior the morning of her wedding when perusing quote material. But that seems the most overt sign of her dreading her marriage at the time.

What I do see as a contuous pattern is how women show signs of passive displeasure and doubts. If I were to identify the behaviors on Leary's Behavior Dynamics Circle they all fall in the passive range, even Arianne's. Thomas Leary mapped behavior in relation to 2 axis:

• dominant vs passive on a vertical axis. 
• we (together) versus against on a horizontal axis

This gives you 4 quandrants that each can be cut in half again, with one type of behavior leaning closer to the vertical axis, while the second behavior of the same quadrant leans closer to horizontal one. For example, when Robert orders an army around he behaves like a leader and displays more dominant than we behavior, though he's not antagonistic. Council members and the Hand display less dominant behavior, but still make proposals (aka taking initiative), while taking in "we" terms. So they too show dominant-we behavior, but it leans more towards the we. They're "helpers".

In the "passive we" quadrant you have the behavior of people who go along with what's decided, either without ever saying anything - the silent majority who nod. That behavior is the most passive, but still "we" behavior. Ths is for example how Catelyn goes along with her match with Ned Stark.

While the passive behavior that leans mostly to "we" behavior, and is less passive than the silent yasaying follower are those who ask for help. They show more iniative because they speak up, but they are passive because they "ask" rather "propose", and because they appeal for help with the more dominant character within the dynamics it is "we" behavior. Dany's feeble protest and "please, please, please" falls in the bottom quadrant of we behavior. She turns to Viserys for help, treatnig him as an ally in their team. Even if she does not want the match at the time, her behavior is we-passive, but quickly pushed into sheeple behavior.

Based on Cat's memories and how Lysa rationalizes her choice not to refuse Jon Arryn (expecting him to die quickly and her looking forward to at least looking forward to motherhood), makes Lysa a complete

Now in the "against" half of the axis, we also have 2 quadrants that each can be divided in two again. The behavior that is the most dominant while being against is the behavior of a "rival". It's the behavior who almost always comes with a counter-proposal to that of the leader. They don't make proposals in the interest of all, but just to satisfy their dominance. They can be the most irritating when doing this, but can be easily won - by actually delegating them the responsibility to see one of their better rival proposals through. Harry Strickland behaves in this way in JonCon's chapter in the Lost Lord. He's argumentative, saying no to each and every suggestion, but none of that is in the interest of everybody else present. 

Less dominant but far more "against" behavior is outright open aggression of an "aggressor". Jaime challenging Ned Stark in the streets of King's Landing is outright aggressive. Jaime acts entirely upon his own initiative, is violent and in the interest of no-one really, not even Tyrion himself.

The bottom quadrant in the "against" half is that of passive aggressive behavior. The least passive and also mostly "against"  behavior is that of someone who makes cutting and jabbing remarks. The leader may be saying something, but the other person will interject with barbed quips that feel condescending, but do not actually rebel. When Lyanna makes her last remark to Ned Stark about love being sweet but not changing a man's nature, she tries to sound kind, but she's not just saying something about Robert with that remark, she also lets Ned Stark feel that she looks down on Ned's opinion too. She's displaying passive-aggressive behavior. Running away is another passive-aggressive behavior, because once again open rebellion is avoided, but it damn well is silent FU to the dominant character.

Suicide or total behind the scene secret plotting are examples of the most passive-against behavior. That's what Lysa does. She weeps in silence, never daring to speak up. And afterwards, once she has an ally, she begins to plot murder and revenge. They're called "deep sea mines". You think they behave like silent followers who agree with you, and then out of the blue everything blows up in your face, and you don't know why really.

Unless someone has an actual pathology, nobody ever behaves in solely one segment. And therefore must be examined situation by situation, rather than "personality" or "character".

There are a few very predictable behavior laws:

• dominant behavior will automatically call forth passive behavior with the other (no matter whether they're we or against), and passive behavior will automatically call forth dominant behavior with the other
• we behavior calls forth we behavior in the other
• antagonistic behavior antagonizes

Most conflicts come about by not handling the dynamics well. If someone shows problematic behavior you must show mirror behavior from the "we" side.

For example, Cat or Hoster see Lysa weeping silently. This is passive-against behavior. Its appropriate mirror behavior is the passive-we behavior. It's not trying to tell her that everything will be alright (dominant leader or helper we behavior). It's not even asking how you can help (passive help behavior, but still more dominant than Lysa's). Lysa is passive, and in order for her to confess what weighs her mind, to speak, Cat or Hoster should display passive behavior to compel her to speak up (initiative). They should simply hold her, not speak, and sit with her, and hold their tongue. The dominant-we behavior is what keeps her silent and because she disagrees it pushes her from the "we" side to the hostile side. It's how a "deep sea mine" is created.

Lyanna starts out by explicitly saying that she does not believe Robert will make a good husband. It's pure "against" behavior, but not yet aggressive, so slightly on the passive side. The sole constructive behavior is that of the passive-we side (again). Dominant behavior whether as leader or trying to be "hellpful" the way Ned does, won't make her any less against, but simply pushes her into the passive quadrant - that of the runaway, suicide, or deep sea mine plotter. Ned here had a chance to ask how he could help her, to ask what she feared, or to ask for help in understanding her. Asking is passive behavior and thus will free the other to be more explicit, but is also definite we behavior. It would not have changed Lyanna's mind, but she would have been moved closer to the we.

The laws of behavior dynamics smply foretell us that it is entirely unrealistic to expect Lyanna to display dominant-against behavior of saying openly "no" in that situation. Instead any display of dominant behavior towards her makes her just more passive, but certainly not cooperative. We go from against to a passive aggressive remark and later a passive aggressive action. Meanwhile the passive behavior of Lysa and Lyanna reinforces the dominant behavior of the others.

Of course that doesn't make Ned or Cat responsible for the choices of Lyanna and Lysa. But it shows there was a window to deal with the issue before it could become a conflict, an opportunity they missed out on, because they too were reacting according to the laws of dynamics, rather than choosing their first response more consciously.

[Tijgy]

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

And Ned Stark is blind to the depth of the flaws in Robert's character. At the start of aGoT, Ned thinks Robert loved Lya even more than he loved her. And what is that based on? On words alone, because most of his behavior while she is alive contradicts it. It's not until Robert orders Lady to be killed that Ned starts to have misgivings about Robert, until at the end Ned can say "you weren't as bad a king as Aerys II". He sure as hell doesn't think of Robert anymore as the man who loved Lyanna the most. No, in that respect he tells Robert "he only saw Lyanna's beauty" and thinks ill of his whoring.

I always call personally AGOT The Tragedy of Robert's and Ned's love story. Ned wasn't even only blind of Robert's flaws. He actually even put him on some pedestal. And indeed, piece by piece, Ned's idolized version of Robert was destroyed. It starts from believing Robert his valiant knight would fight the Lannister for him just like he fought against the dragons to actually a very dark image of Robert (and I actually think Ned is even believing here the worse of Robert which is also not the complete truth). 

And Robert has always been that person. And the sad thing is that I actually do think Ned believed love might change people, love would had to been enough to change Robert's mind about Lady, to convince him of Lannister's deceit, ... but Ned slowly realizes his little sister was actually right.

 

[sweetsunray]

23 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

I always call personally AGOT The Tragedy of Robert's and Ned's love story. Ned wasn't even only blind of Robert's flaws. He actually even put him on some pedestal. And indeed, piece by piece, Ned's idolized version of Robert was destroyed. It starts from believing Robert his valiant knight would fight the Lannister for him just like he fought against the dragons to actually a very dark image of Robert (and I actually think Ned is even believing here the worse of Robert which is also not the complete truth). 

And Robert has always been that person. And the sad thing is that I actually do think Ned believed love might change people, love would had to been enough to change Robert's mind about Lady, to convince him of Lannister's deceit, ... but Ned slowly realizes his little sister was actually right.

Very beautifully said.

[Ygrain]

Agreed.

[Tijgy]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Very beautifully said.

Thanks 

I initially wanted to include following quote but I didn't found it yet: 

Quote

 

He laughed uproariously, and even Ned smiled, remembering.

This was the boy he had grown up with, he thought; this was the Robert Baratheon he’d known and loved. If he could prove that the Lannisters were behind the attack on Bran, prove that they had murdered Jon Arryn, this man would listen. Then Cersei would fall, and the Kingslayer with her, and if Lord Tywin dared to rouse the west, Robert would smash him as he had smashed Rhagear Targaryen on the Trident. He could see it all so clearly.

That breakfast tasted better than anything Eddard Stark had eaten in a long time, and afterward his smiles came easier and more often, until it was time for the tournament to resume.

 

 This is Ned being  at his valiant Dragonslayer. And then some time later he goes to Cersei because he is afraid Robert would be able to give the order to kill her children. 

Anyway, in the discussion between the whole network of Rhaegar, Lyanna, Robert and Ned characters I actually also think this quote is sort of important? Earlier this thread it was mentioned another quote showed Ned actually didn't thought very badly of Rhaegar and probably didn't think Rhaegar mistreated his sister. I do think you should also not forget no matter what Lyanna thought of Rhaegaer Ned still actually believed at the same time apparently the dragons should be defeated. And you cannot really blame him for that. They did murder his father and his brother.  

[Prof. Cecily]

4 hours ago, Tijgy said:

Thanks 

I initially wanted to include following quote but I didn't found it yet: 

 This is Ned being  at his valiant Dragonslayer. And then some time later he goes to Cersei because he is afraid Robert would be able to give the order to kill her children. 

Anyway, in the discussion between the whole network of Rhaegar, Lyanna, Robert and Ned characters I actually also think this quote is sort of important? Earlier this thread it was mentioned another quote showed Ned actually didn't thought very badly of Rhaegar and probably didn't think Rhaegar mistreated his sister. I do think you should also not forget no matter what Lyanna thought of Rhaegaer Ned still actually believed at the same time apparently the dragons should be defeated. And you cannot really blame him for that. They did murder his father and his brother.  

Ah, that last meal that Ned ate believing all could go well. It reminds me of that meal Kevan Lannister ate  just before going to Pycelle's rooms.

And yes, 

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

And the sad thing is that I actually do think Ned believed love might change people, love would had to been enough to change Robert's mind about Lady, to convince him of Lannister's deceit, ... but Ned slowly realizes his little sister was actually right.

So sad, and beautifully written.

 

 

[Prof. Cecily]

9 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Spoiler

 

Yes, I posted my reply and I think you cross-posted with me, and your was a complementary read.

I remembered that Dany is fearful of Drogo at the end of her first chapter when she's about to be introduced to him and that Viserys hurt her arm there, and how he'd give her to a whole khalasar if it would give him an army in repsonse to her fear.

I missed out on Lysa's weepy behavior the morning of her wedding when perusing quote material. But that seems the most overt sign of her dreading her marriage at the time.

What I do see as a contuous pattern is how women show signs of passive displeasure and doubts. If I were to identify the behaviors on Leary's Behavior Dynamics Circle they all fall in the passive range, even Arianne's. Thomas Leary mapped behavior in relation to 2 axis:

• dominant vs passive on a vertical axis. 
• we (together) versus against on a horizontal axis

This gives you 4 quandrants that each can be cut in half again, with one type of behavior leaning closer to the vertical axis, while the second behavior of the same quadrant leans closer to horizontal one. For example, when Robert orders an army around he behaves like a leader and displays more dominant than we behavior, though he's not antagonistic. Council members and the Hand display less dominant behavior, but still make proposals (aka taking initiative), while taking in "we" terms. So they too show dominant-we behavior, but it leans more towards the we. They're "helpers".

In the "passive we" quadrant you have the behavior of people who go along with what's decided, either without ever saying anything - the silent majority who nod. That behavior is the most passive, but still "we" behavior. Ths is for example how Catelyn goes along with her match with Ned Stark.

While the passive behavior that leans mostly to "we" behavior, and is less passive than the silent yasaying follower are those who ask for help. They show more iniative because they speak up, but they are passive because they "ask" rather "propose", and because they appeal for help with the more dominant character within the dynamics it is "we" behavior. Dany's feeble protest and "please, please, please" falls in the bottom quadrant of we behavior. She turns to Viserys for help, treatnig him as an ally in their team. Even if she does not want the match at the time, her behavior is we-passive, but quickly pushed into sheeple behavior.

Based on Cat's memories and how Lysa rationalizes her choice not to refuse Jon Arryn (expecting him to die quickly and her looking forward to at least looking forward to motherhood), makes Lysa a complete

Now in the "against" half of the axis, we also have 2 quadrants that each can be divided in two again. The behavior that is the most dominant while being against is the behavior of a "rival". It's the behavior who almost always comes with a counter-proposal to that of the leader. They don't make proposals in the interest of all, but just to satisfy their dominance. They can be the most irritating when doing this, but can be easily won - by actually delegating them the responsibility to see one of their better rival proposals through. Harry Strickland behaves in this way in JonCon's chapter in the Lost Lord. He's argumentative, saying no to each and every suggestion, but none of that is in the interest of everybody else present. 

Less dominant but far more "against" behavior is outright open aggression of an "aggressor". Jaime challenging Ned Stark in the streets of King's Landing is outright aggressive. Jaime acts entirely upon his own initiative, is violent and in the interest of no-one really, not even Tyrion himself.

The bottom quadrant in the "against" half is that of passive aggressive behavior. The least passive and also mostly "against"  behavior is that of someone who makes cutting and jabbing remarks. The leader may be saying something, but the other person will interject with barbed quips that feel condescending, but do not actually rebel. When Lyanna makes her last remark to Ned Stark about love being sweet but not changing a man's nature, she tries to sound kind, but she's not just saying something about Robert with that remark, she also lets Ned Stark feel that she looks down on Ned's opinion too. She's displaying passive-aggressive behavior. Running away is another passive-aggressive behavior, because once again open rebellion is avoided, but it damn well is silent FU to the dominant character.

Suicide or total behind the scene secret plotting are examples of the most passive-against behavior. That's what Lysa does. She weeps in silence, never daring to speak up. And afterwards, once she has an ally, she begins to plot murder and revenge. They're called "deep sea mines". You think they behave like silent followers who agree with you, and then out of the blue everything blows up in your face, and you don't know why really.

Unless someone has an actual pathology, nobody ever behaves in solely one segment. And therefore must be examined situation by situation, rather than "personality" or "character".

There are a few very predictable behavior laws:

• dominant behavior will automatically call forth passive behavior with the other (no matter whether they're we or against), and passive behavior will automatically call forth dominant behavior with the other
• we behavior calls forth we behavior in the other
• antagonistic behavior antagonizes

Most conflicts come about by not handling the dynamics well. If someone shows problematic behavior you must show mirror behavior from the "we" side.

For example, Cat or Hoster see Lysa weeping silently. This is passive-against behavior. Its appropriate mirror behavior is the passive-we behavior. It's not trying to tell her that everything will be alright (dominant leader or helper we behavior). It's not even asking how you can help (passive help behavior, but still more dominant than Lysa's). Lysa is passive, and in order for her to confess what weighs her mind, to speak, Cat or Hoster should display passive behavior to compel her to speak up (initiative). They should simply hold her, not speak, and sit with her, and hold their tongue. The dominant-we behavior is what keeps her silent and because she disagrees it pushes her from the "we" side to the hostile side. It's how a "deep sea mine" is created.

Lyanna starts out by explicitly saying that she does not believe Robert will make a good husband. It's pure "against" behavior, but not yet aggressive, so slightly on the passive side. The sole constructive behavior is that of the passive-we side (again). Dominant behavior whether as leader or trying to be "hellpful" the way Ned does, won't make her any less against, but simply pushes her into the passive quadrant - that of the runaway, suicide, or deep sea mine plotter. Ned here had a chance to ask how he could help her, to ask what she feared, or to ask for help in understanding her. Asking is passive behavior and thus will free the other to be more explicit, but is also definite we behavior. It would not have changed Lyanna's mind, but she would have been moved closer to the we.

The laws of behavior dynamics smply foretell us that it is entirely unrealistic to expect Lyanna to display dominant-against behavior of saying openly "no" in that situation. Instead any display of dominant behavior towards her makes her just more passive, but certainly not cooperative. We go from against to a passive aggressive remark and later a passive aggressive action. Meanwhile the passive behavior of Lysa and Lyanna reinforces the dominant behavior of the others.

Of course that doesn't make Ned or Cat responsible for the choices of Lyanna and Lysa. But it shows there was a window to deal with the issue before it could become a conflict, an opportunity they missed out on, because they too were reacting according to the laws of dynamics, rather than choosing their first response more consciously.

 

 

Now that was a generous gift to the forum- such a clear example of the laws of behavioral dynamics applied to Lyanna and Lysa!

In terms of the laws of behavioral dynamics, could we predict a suicide on the part of Lyanna?

[sweetsunray]

21 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

In terms of the laws of behavioral dynamics, could we predict a suicide on the part of Lyanna?

It would be possible if everybody else dominated her and she felt entirely without allies for the past year, and felt completely disempowered by everybody else (including Rhaegar and the Kingsguard), so that the agression/the "against" feelings (blame, shame and guilt) turned towards herself. "Deep sea mine" actions as severe as plotting murder or suicide in the behavior dynamics concept requires long term passiveness and loss of agency for a very long time. They are extremes. For example it took Lysa years and years to work up the courage, and even then she had an ally to empower her enough to do it. If LF had not been "by her side" all those years though Lysa's passiveness could have resulted in jumping to her own death. This is the BTW the image that George tends to use - someone jumping from a tower window to their death if they wish to commit suicide, rather than turn the knife on themselves. And of course being weakened by fever is the evidence that she died of an infection from birth complications, rather than suicide.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

On 2/6/2017 at 5:10 PM, Sea Dragon said:

aren't Targearyen babies supposed to be hard to deliver?

No. They are not more difficult than the rest of the human babies.