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What makes someone truly legitimate?


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So I was thinking about the fake Aegon theory and fake X (put someone here) and I ended with a question in my head. What makes someone legitimate? What is the objective factor that makes someone legit and someone a pretender/fake? A piece of paper? Witnesses? Power? Allies? throughout the entire book we come across several accounts of fake/pretender people and the a lot of different things made people believe in them. The girl (i forgot the name) posing as Arya, Joffrey Myrcella and Tommen, Aegon etc. All of those have different elements and "proof" of their legitimacy but what truly makes someone legit? And how to be sure?

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Not sure what you mean countryman. What makes somebody truly legitimate is if their parents were married by the time of their conception. Or at least by the time they are born.

If others are gonna believe that, or more importantly act like they do regardless of if that is true or not, is ultimately an matter of power.

BTW, is writing in non-english languages against forum rules? Can't find 'em.

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11 minutes ago, Knight of the Red Tree said:

Not sure what you mean countryman. What makes somebody truly legitimate is if their parents were married by the time of their conception. Or at least by the time they are born.

If others are gonna believe that, or more importantly act like they do regardless of if that is true or not, is ultimately an matter of power.

BTW, is writing in non-english languages against forum rules? Can't find 'em.

Yes it's against the rules.
But that's exactly the point I was trying to make here. If that's what makes someone legitimate why we even bother in discussing who is or isn't who they say they are. If power and law alone can determinate that, everything that person needs to do is convince most of the people.

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1 hour ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

So I was thinking about the fake Aegon theory and fake X (put someone here) and I ended with a question in my head. What makes someone legitimate? What is the objective factor that makes someone legit and someone a pretender/fake? A piece of paper? Witnesses? Power? Allies? throughout the entire book we come across several accounts of fake/pretender people and the a lot of different things made people believe in them. The girl (i forgot the name) posing as Arya, Joffrey Myrcella and Tommen, Aegon etc. All of those have different elements and "proof" of their legitimacy but what truly makes someone legit? And how to be sure?

Obviously one should have married parents, but if a guy (or girl) is pretty cool he can also be legit ;) 

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Oh God.  Not Renly vs. Stannis again...watch Varys vs. Darkstream hop to it with more energy than crickets on cocaine...

'Legitimacy'. Let's see:  It's whoever can grab the most mashed potatoes and gravy from his bro -- and the girl doesn't harm neither...;)  (and don't forget, guys, it's all in the Prologue!)

 

 

Bread and Butter

-- The Newbeats

I like bread and butter,
I like toast and jam,
That's what my baby feeds me,
I'm her loving man.

He likes bread and butter,
He likes toast and jam,
That's what his baby feeds him,
He's her loving man.

She don't cook mashed potatoes,
She don't cook T-bone steaks,
Don't feed me peanut butter,
She knows that I can't take.

He likes bread and butter,
He likes toast and jam,
That's what his baby feeds him,
He's her loving man.

Got home early one morning,
Much to my surprise,
She was eating chicken and dumplings
With some other guy.

No more bread and butter,
No more toast and jam,
I found my baby eating
With some other man.

Songwriters: Jay Turnbow / Larry Parks

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14 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Oh God.  Not Renly vs. Stannis again...watch Varys vs. Darkstream hop to it with more energy than crickets on cocaine...

'Legitimacy'. Let's see:  It's whoever can grab the most mashed potatoes and gravy from his bro -- and the girl doesn't harm neither...;)  (and don't forget, guys, it's all in the Prologue!)

NOOOOO please not more of this stannis vs renly. I was talking about identity hahaha

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12 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

NOOOOO please not more of this stannis vs renly. I was talking about identity hahaha

Renly self-identified as king. In a post Wo5K world where Westeros has multiple gods and a woman is essentially the power in the 7 Kingdoms, surely we can all be progressive as the next guy. What more do you need?

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1 minute ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Renly self-identified as king. In a post Wo5K world where Westeros has multiple gods and a woman is essentially the power in the 7 Kingdoms, surely we can all be progressive as the next guy. What more do you need?

fuck. I don't know if I made my point confusing or the subject is confusing by itself. I was talking about true identity. Is aegon a targaryen? If so, how can we be 100% sure? By witnessess? By a paper signed by the king? By conquering the kingdoms and self proclaiming a targaryen? We now know that DNA is unique per person, but for the ASOIAF story how to be sure about those things?

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26 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

NOOOOO please not more of this stannis vs renly. I was talking about identity hahaha

Ah -- thank God it's only about the incest and whatnot!  That kind of 'legitimacy'...Yes, only a modern-day paternity test can put the poor guy out of his misery (a man always knows less than a woman in these matters).  Otherwise, we place our trust in dragons recognising one of their own.  ;)

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15 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

fuck. I don't know if I made my point confusing or the subject is confusing by itself. I was talking about true identity. Is aegon a targaryen? If so, how can we be 100% sure? By witnessess? By a paper signed by the king? By conquering the kingdoms and self proclaiming a targaryen? We now know that DNA is unique per person, but for the ASOIAF story how to be sure about those things?

Depends on if their parents acknowledge them, if they look like their parents, and many other things like legitimization or a piece of paper. No one alive can determine if Aegon is actually a Targ. Varys would be the closest. The whole point of having JonCon nearby was to lend legitimacy to the claim he was Aegon VI come back to reclaim his throne. Everyone remembers how close he was with Rhaegar, if they know anything about him at all. We even see in his POV chapters he definitely loves having his ancestral home back but he's fatally determined to not "fail the son."

At a certain point you just have to take things on faith if it's not 100% provable, and most things are not in Westeros.

Cue: 

Edit: Man I wish I had remembered to use this in the Renly v Stannis debate

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11 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Depends on if their parents acknowledge them, if they look like their parents, and many other things like legitimization or a piece of paper. No one alive can determine if Aegon is actually a Targ. Varys would be the closest. The whole point of having JonCon nearby was to lend legitimacy to the claim he was Aegon VI come back to reclaim his throne. Everyone remembers how close he was with Rhaegar, if they know anything about him at all. We even see in his POV chapters he definitely loves having his ancestral home back but he's fatally determined to not "fail the son."

At a certain point you just have to take things on faith if it's not 100% provable, and most things are not in Westeros.

Cue: 

Edit: Man I wish I had remembered to use this in the Renly v Stannis debate

Dude this video is pure gold. The logic is flawed but the video is gold. And As pointed out by ravenous only a paternity test can rule out other possibility. But that's nothing in the ASOIAF that could be a objective parameter for us readers? (Except George).

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20 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Ah -- thank God it's only about the incest and whatnot!  That kind of 'legitimacy'...Yes, only a modern-day paternity test can put the poor guy out of his misery (a man always knows less than a woman in these matters).  Otherwise, we place our trust in dragons recognising one of their own.  ;)

DNA can't show if people are born from a married couple or not.

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4 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

Dude this video is pure gold. The logic is flawed but the video is gold. And As pointed out by ravenous only a paternity test can rule out other possibility. But that's nothing in the ASOIAF that could be a objective parameter for us readers? (Except George).

Literally only a denial or explicit declaration out of the mother's mouth, and even that could be hit or miss if it's someone like Cersei who entertains several suitors at once. Rhaenys was a dragon riding mother married to literally the most powerful in the world and people still doubted, more personally than publicly, the paternity of her children.

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2 hours ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

What is the objective factor that makes someone legit and someone a pretender/fake?

 

Quote

Varys smiled. "Here, then. Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less."

 

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If it turns out Aegon is not Targ Varys and Illyrio certainly know he's a fake. And if he is then Varys obviously know he is, too.

But knowing the truth is one thing, making people believe in it it's another.

But Varys would agree with you. I don't think that he cares one bit if he is legitimate, only that people will believe so.

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5 minutes ago, Knight of the Red Tree said:

If it turns out Aegon is not Targ Varys and Illyrio certainly know he's a fake. And if he is then Varys obviously know he is, too.

But knowing the truth is one thing, making people believe in it it's another.

But Varys would agree with you. I don't think that he cares one bit if he is legitimate, only that people will believe so.

Aegon is fake.  He is such a boring character -- GRRM's heart is not in it; and that means he is not Targ and has no future destiny (compared to his unreasonable fervor for Dany).

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Yeah, I read the theories and also think he is fake too.

Regardless he would not make a good king. That stunt of throwing the chess pieces in the floor and commanding Tyrion to pick them up because he lost is pretty pathetic. I think he is a foil to Jon, 

Spoiler

Aegon thinks he's a prince and is not humble, even though he's Illiryo's bastard. Jon is an Targ prince, but he is humble and/because he think's he's a bastard.

 

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You have to narrow down what you mean by "legit."  Legal in what way?  You see, just because someone is not a bastard doesn't mean they have a claim to inherit lands, titles, or thrones.  So you need to narrow down your question.

Bastard vs. Legit

This one is simple.  Born from unmarried parents = bastard.  A legitimate ruler, which Robb Stark was not, could remove the legal status of bastard.  The person was born a bastard and became legit by decree of the ruling monarch.

No Claim vs. Legal Claim 

To inherit something of worth.  Lands, titles, and all.  Succession is defined by law but since the ruling monarch makes the laws, he or she could make exceptions.  Randyll Tarly might have gone to his monarch and petitioned to have the inheritance pass to a more capable heir in Dickon Tarly.  Exchanges of favor might get it done.  A conqueror like Aegon can come in and change the laws.  Since he came in as a conqueror he has the right and more importantly the ability, to enforce his own beliefs on the conquered.  

It takes more than belief.  Jon could pretend all he wants that he's the lord of winterfell and his wildlings could want to make it true with all their hearts, but it's not true unless he takes control of it and he is legally granted the castle by the ruling monarch whose rear occupies the Iron Throne.  

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