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Lysa Arryn's treason?


Igor Oliveira

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Only is they can punish her, LF brought the vale back into the kings peace.

 

Basically if you are strong enough you get away with it.  Tywin and Frey did not commit their troops during Roberts Rebellion.  Umber suggested he would take his banners home to which Robb threatend to deal with him as an oath breaker once he had finished his war.

 

The fact that the North Stormlands Iron Isles Reach and Dragonstone was in open rebelion ment that the iron throne is not in a possition to punish anyone, let alone Dorne and the Vale who where effectively neutral

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Did Joffrey make any overtures or commands to the Vale?  It is only treasonous if commanded.  It may have been that they just assumed the Vale would rebel and did not properly address Lysa, or that they decided it was better not to provoke Lysa at all.  If that's the case, then I don't believe any treason occurred.

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8 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

I don't think so. I don't remember anyone calling it treason, and we've seen some of Tyrion - Tywin - Cersei's war councils.

I know but aren't the wardens considered vassals of the king? Aren't they bound to take arms when the king is at war? 

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2 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Again: if even the Crown doesn't consider it treason, then it's clearly not treason.

Tywin Lannister would never miss a chance to feel offended.

True. Or maube they already had enough trouble and feared the vale would rebel too

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57 minutes ago, Igor Oliveira said:

True. Or maube they already had enough trouble and feared the vale would rebel too

That is pretty much what people are saying. If you are not sure that a vassal will take your side you do not want to call them a traitor and give them cause to join the opposition.  

In this case the Vale and Dorne just staying neutral was a boon for the Crown, and both realms were rewarded with it. The Vale got back their Warden of the East title while Dorne got Mycrella and a Small Council position.

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1 hour ago, Igor Oliveira said:

True. Or maube they already had enough trouble and feared the vale would rebel too

Even then, Tywin would feel offended and keep it for a later use, if he couldn't retaliate right away. It is written that "Stannis Baratheon with a grievance was like a mastiff with a bone; he gnawed it down to splinters", but the same could apply to Lord Tywin just as well.

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13 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Even then, Tywin would feel offended and keep it for a later use, if he couldn't retaliate right away. It is written that "Stannis Baratheon with a grievance was like a mastiff with a bone; he gnawed it down to splinters", but the same could apply to Lord Tywin just as well.

Could it? Tywin shows zero inclination to get back at the Vale.

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It's only treason if the crown says it is, and they have enough traitors on their hands to add yet another one to the mix. That being said, the Vale should not expect any big favors from the crown any time soon, except maybe through Littlefinger's maneuvering.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Again: if even the Crown doesn't consider it treason, then it's clearly not treason.

Tywin Lannister would never miss a chance to feel offended.

He would (or at least would delay it) if it was against common sense. And antagonizing Lysa at that time was clearly against common sense. Also, Tywin has some 'respect' for force language, for example he sort of recognizes Balon as a king by 'the right of conquest' and even considers negotiating with him, were it profitable (it wasn't because Balon was harassing the North anyway, so leaving him be, for a time at least, was the the pragmatic thing to do). He wouldn't demand to punish everyone around when he didn't have the means to do it (there was an actual war going on) and make everyone his enemies, that's Cersei and Joffrey's thinking. Btw, it's Cersei who feels offended that Lysa doesn't come to the KL to make a vow of loyalty to the crown, and she's probably right this time (seeing Lysa's pissing on the crown for exactly what it is).

And was it treason? Well, if the crown called the Vale for troops and/or renewing their declaration of loyalty (did they? I don't remember), then it technically was.

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29 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

He would (or at least would delay it) if it was against common sense. And antagonizing Lysa at that time was clearly against common sense. Also, Tywin has some 'respect' for force language, for example he sort of recognizes Balon as a king by 'the right of conquest' and even considers negotiating with him, were it profitable (it wasn't because Balon was harassing the North anyway, so leaving him be, for a time at least, was the the pragmatic thing to do). He wouldn't demand to punish everyone around when he didn't have the means to do it (there was an actual war going on) and make everyone his enemies, that's Cersei and Joffrey's thinking. Btw, it's Cersei who feels offended that Lysa doesn't come to the KL to make a vow of loyalty to the crown, and she's probably right this time (seeing Lysa's pissing on the crown for exactly what it is).

And was it treason? Well, if the crown called the Vale for troops and/or renewing their declaration of loyalty (did they? I don't remember), then it technically was.

Had Tywin win, do you think he'd take some revenge against the Vale/ Dorne for not helping? If yes, what type of revenge? Sending troops to the vale would not be a wise move, we all know the vale is almost unconquerable. Same with Dorne because they had Myrcella with them and could easily make her an hostage

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3 hours ago, Igor Oliveira said:

Had Tywin win, do you think he'd take some revenge against the Vale/ Dorne for not helping? If yes, what type of revenge? Sending troops to the vale would not be a wise move, we all know the vale is almost unconquerable. Same with Dorne because they had Myrcella with them and could easily make her an hostage

But... he did win. And invited the Martells to sit in the Small Council, and the Tyrells (who came to his side, but before that actively rebelled) to make babies with his grandson.

Also, the Arryns (ie. the widow with her brestfed child) and the Martells were the only two of the Great Houses that didn't go against the Lannisters, so punishing them would be outright stupid.

That said, Lysa's duty technically was supporting the rightful (hehe) king, and not sitting and waiting who'd win. And if the crown didn't call for her help, it may be defended by technicalities, but if they did, yes, she committed treason. Just a small one compared to everyone else, and she is no material for a rebel anyway.

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Lysa was known to be nuts.  She's spoken of as pathetic or miserable.   Doesn't Cersei call her that wretched thing at one point?  At any rate, it seemed to me that Tywin was almost relieved Lysa refused to join the war.  Lysa was the aunt of the King in the North and sister to that King's greatest diplomat.  The Blackfish was a renowned war hero.  All in all, Tyrion was released from the Vale and I reckon that was a major score for the area in Tywin's eyes.   

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One of the bigger problem in the Westerosi legal system is it doesn't provide feasible legal remedy for crimes by Lords Paramount committed outside of King's Landing, or even much of a legal way to escalate legal issues a Lord Paramount can't or won't deal with. The Lord Paramount has nearly absolute legal authority within their own territories, and swears to uphold the King's Peace, and the authority of the senior legal official on the Small Council, the Master of Laws, doesn't include any sort of staff or magistracy outside of King's Landing. Mostly it just involves the prisons of King's Landing and the King's Justice. Ned Stark got unlucky because the City Watch was there to take him into custody, but as we know from the story as well, the head of the City Watch doesn't report directly to the Master of Laws and is its own office. This situation persists mostly because King's Landing is so huge relative to everywhere else in the continent that the King and the Small Council spend a proportionately great deal more of their time and attention on the capital than anywhere else. This is why, for example, Renly could do this job, even though he didn't appear to have much interest in law.

So when a Lord Paramount violates the King's Peace outside of King's Landing, and the Master of Laws found out about it, the normal way it would work would be for the Master of Laws to refer it back to the Lord Paramount. And obviously that doesn't work.

A good example of this is when Aerys II wanted to execute Robert Baratheon and Ned Stark, he didn't send anybody to go get them, he asked Jon Arryn to turn them over, and when Jon didn't want to, there wasn't anything to do about it but war.

The position of justiciar in the Free Cities and Dorne - and which Randyll Tarly eventually gets appointed - is different, that's a civil service magistracy with the authority to hear cases. But Westeros outside of Dorne doesn't have an institutional civil service, it has offices of royal investiture.

As we see with The Mountain, when you're talking about crimes outside King's Landing that the Lords Paramount can't or won't deal with, the procedure is to petition the King or the Hand directly for a writ of attainder, and the remedy is going to involve a military intervention rather than a legal one - even the people appointed to go get the Mountain are invested with the authority by decree of the Hand of the King, not by virtue of an institutional office. And depending on how you interpret Ned's decree, the Mountain doesn't seem to even get the benefit of a trial once it comes to that.

So, it doesn't matter if Lysa Arryn committed a "crime" - the only way to punish her is with a military assault to depose her, and the authority the King has to do that doesn't come from criminal law anyway.  

Certainly the destruction that Robert's putting down of Balon caused on the Iron Islands is out of step with Balon having committed a felony and is more characteristic of a sovereign being a sovereign, for example.

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10 hours ago, Tianzi said:

But... he did win. And invited the Martells to sit in the Small Council, and the Tyrells (who came to his side, but before that actively rebelled) to make babies with his grandson.

Also, the Arryns (ie. the widow with her brestfed child) and the Martells were the only two of the Great Houses that didn't go against the Lannisters, so punishing them would be outright stupid.

That said, Lysa's duty technically was supporting the rightful (hehe) king, and not sitting and waiting who'd win. And if the crown didn't call for her help, it may be defended by technicalities, but if they did, yes, she committed treason. Just a small one compared to everyone else, and she is no material for a rebel anyway.

Sorry didn't choose my words properly (not a native English speaker), thanks very helpful. This question always bothered me

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