Do you guys think Baelish knows about Jon's parent's?

[Wolfgirly]

I don't think Littlefinger knows about that. He' always sneaking around everywhere though. He might've reacted the way he did when Sansa said "and he kidnapped her and raped her" because LF was there and saw Rhaegar. He might've been around long enough to see stories about Rhaegar not fitting with the character.

[Dragonsbone]

To me it was never plausible that neither Varys nor Littlefinger know about Jons heritage in the books. Varys was very present at that time and as a master of whisperer very powerfull. The picture of him that is shown to us until now in the books makes it impossible for him not to know. Until now he is informed about absolutely everything that is happening in Westeros and Essos with the help of his - to other people basically invisible - little birds. It makes absolutely no sense not to have spy on Rhaegar and Lyanna, especially since their relation brought up the war. Also he knew that three kingsguards were at the tower of joy. Varys is a very smart man. If Varys is unaware of this, it would make it a huge loophole in the series. That is why I think he knows it in the books. But since this information contradicts his plan with fAegon, he keeps it for himself. As for Littlefinger, even though he may have not been as powerfull as Varys during the Rebellion, he gained that Information later. After all, there were maids in the tower of joy. In an interview of GRRM in Mexico (last year), he mentioned that Littlefinger has more informations than Varys. He also stated that both won't have a POV chapter, since both know too much. 

That is why I am pretty sure that both know about Jon. And they will know in the show as well.

[snow is the man]

I don't see how he would know. I think people forget that trailers are made to get people excited and talking. I personally think jon figures out that  littlefinger was a part of ned dying or that LF threatens him with something and jon loses it

[Benedict Oathkeeper]

I think he has figured it out, eventually, through a series of not-that-difficult deductions, and now he is 80-90% certain, and that is enough for him to use against Jon, who knows nothing. Given his love for Cat LF have been watching and considering Eddard all these years, from a distance, and then the time they spent together in Kings Landing will have likely made LF even more suspicious of Ned's bastard story.  Once that is in question, and if you think about it hard enough, you can get close to deducing that Rhaegar and Lyanna may have had a child, which then all neatly fits together as Jon.

So, he doesn't "know" know but he very heavily suspects ...

[Prof. Cecily]

13 hours ago, Dragonsbone said:

In an interview of GRRM in Mexico (last year), he mentioned...

Oh, my. Is there a link for that interview?

 

2 hours ago, Benedict Oathkeeper said:

t...he time they spent together in Kings Landing will have likely made LF even more suspicious of Ned's bastard story.  Once that is in question, and if you think about it hard enough, you can get close to deducing that Rhaegar and Lyanna may have had a child

Why? My deduction would have been the same as the Westerosi gossips

N+A=J

How would we make the leap to  R+L=J

[Benedict Oathkeeper]

Hello Professor

 

On 03/06/2017 at 2:39 PM, Prof. Cecily said:

Oh, my. Is there a link for that interview?

 

Why? My deduction would have been the same as the Westerosi gossips

N+A=J

How would we make the leap to  R+L=J

I am betting on LF, an intelligent guy, being able to hold more than one theory in his minds eye.  So N+A=J is a good shout as the first deduction but with further information comes further possibilities for alternate deductions.

Ned comes back with Jon, the story portrayed is Ned having being dishonourable with a common or highborn lady, which is uncharacteristic of Ned, but believable, if you don't know him that well.  More suspicious, though, when you do. Once Littlefinger thinks about it beyond his initial "probably Ashara" as I think he would because of his feeling for Cat then many other possibilities present themselves. 15 or so years later, LF gets to know Ned and the dishonourable theory starts to look "funny".   I think it is now a reasonably straightforward deduction, for an intelligent guy, to get to R+L=J based on the fact that Rhaegar and Lyanna eloped or Lyanna was kidnapped and then we're missing for a year.

It seems to me more likely than not he would suspect - do you not agree?

 

[Pacala]

can someone explain ?

the war lasted almost a year. from the moment when stark find out about Lyanna disapearing it took lets say 1 week for Brandon to go in kings landing, then 1 more week for rickard, 2 more till execution.

1 month or 2 for rebels to group up, fougth for 4-6 months. so we have 7 or 9 months passed. 1 or 2 weeks for Ned to go in Tower of Joy, then 2-3 weeks to Ashara and 2 more back in Winterfell. and somehow no one asked him when did had time to conceive that bastard. Even his best buddy Robert has no idea who Jon mother was, and thats pretty questionable when Ned was know as shy with womens.

now imagine 2 noblemens on the horses babysitting a new born child in medeve age traveling a land after a war. and no one noticed them.

[Prof. Cecily]

6 hours ago, Benedict Oathkeeper said:

Hello Professor

 

I am betting on LF, an intelligent guy, being able to hold more than one theory in his minds eye.  So N+A=J is a good shout as the first deduction but with further information comes further possibilities for alternate deductions.

Ned comes back with Jon, the story portrayed is Ned having being dishonourable with a common or highborn lady, which is uncharacteristic of Ned, but believable, if you don't know him that well.  More suspicious, though, when you do. Once Littlefinger thinks about it beyond his initial "probably Ashara" as I think he would because of his feeling for Cat then many other possibilities present themselves. 15 or so years later, LF gets to know Ned and the dishonourable theory starts to look "funny".   I think it is now a reasonably straightforward deduction, for an intelligent guy, to get to R+L=J based on the fact that Rhaegar and Lyanna eloped or Lyanna was kidnapped and then we're missing for a year.

It seems to me more likely than not he would suspect - do you not agree?

 

I don't know. I have no idea what infors LF had in those 15 intervening years.

What do people know about the whole incident of Lyanna's death? And the ToJ?

Were R+L missing for a year?

I don't have a feel for what LF would know/deduce about Jon Snow.

 

 

2 hours ago, Pacala said:

can someone explain ?

the war lasted almost a year. from the moment when stark find out about Lyanna disapearing it took lets say 1 week for Brandon to go in kings landing, then 1 more week for rickard, 2 more till execution.

1 month or 2 for rebels to group up, fougth for 4-6 months. so we have 7 or 9 months passed. 1 or 2 weeks for Ned to go in Tower of Joy, then 2-3 weeks to Ashara and 2 more back in Winterfell. and somehow no one asked him when did had time to conceive that bastard. Even his best buddy Robert has no idea who Jon mother was, and thats pretty questionable when Ned was know as shy with womens.

now imagine 2 noblemens on the horses babysitting a new born child in medeve age traveling a land after a war. and no one noticed them.

How did you figure out those amounts of time to travel those distances?

Have I understood you correctly?

Are you saying one can travel from Starfall to Winterfell in 2 weeks?

 

[A Bong of Ice and Fire]

Littlefinger is a very clever man, not a God. He doesn't know everything. Why would he know about Jon's parentage?  

[Dragonsbone]

1 hour ago, A Bong of Ice and Fire said:

Littlefinger is a very clever man, not a God. He doesn't know everything. Why would he know about Jon's parentage?  

Because he basically has all the informations that we readers have, with the exception of Ned's fever dream. Or the infornations are around. He will conclude just as we did and came up with the answer.

You don't have to be Sherlock to conclude R+L=J. That is something that allways bothered me about the books. How does no one be suspicious about that? There are a lot of theorys regarding Ned's Bastard in Westeros. Some say he is Asharas son, some say Willas or some anonym passant. So there are a lot of rumors. But no rumor about him not being Ned's son. Everyone in Westeros knows about Rhaegar and Lyanna. And no one even speculate that they might have had sex and a child. Even if not true, just look at our world. The slightliest doubt becomes a rumor. And so, someone would automatically assume that Jon might be that child. What do the Westerosi people know: Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and kept her kidnaped for about one year. Then Rhaegar is defeated and Ned finds her Sister dead and  comes back from War with a child just after he found his Sister dead. There will be people who don't suspect anything. But you can bet your ass, that someone will suspect that Jon is the son of Ned's sister. It is just statistics. But no. In the books, no one seem to even come up with that idea, that is at least very possible. 

[A Bong of Ice and Fire]

1 hour ago, Dragonsbone said:

Because he basically has all the informations that we readers have, with the exception of Ned's fever dream. Or the infornations are around. He will conclude just as we did and came up with the answer.

You don't have to be Sherlock to conclude R+L=J. That is something that allways bothered me about the books. How does no one be suspicious about that? There are a lot of theorys regarding Ned's Bastard in Westeros. Some say he is Asharas son, some say Willas or some anonym passant. So there are a lot of rumors. But no rumor about him not being Ned's son. Everyone in Westeros knows about Rhaegar and Lyanna. And no one even speculate that they might have had sex and a child. Even if not true, just look at our world. The slightliest doubt becomes a rumor. And so, someone would automatically assume that Jon might be that child. What do the Westerosi people know: Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and kept her kidnaped for about one year. Then Rhaegar is defeated and Ned finds her Sister dead and  comes back from War with a child just after he found his Sister dead. There will be people who don't suspect anything. But you can bet your ass, that someone will suspect that Jon is the son of Ned's sister. It is just statistics. But no. In the books, no one seem to even come up with that idea, that is at least very possible. 

It would just be wild speculation, really. The fact that no one talks about it in the books indicates that there is no evidence out there to suggest Rhaegar and Lyanna had a child.  Lyanna was stashed far away from any city or holdfast.  Who would know besides the Kingsguard there and the nursemaids?  Even Ned seemed to have no idea.

R+L=J only seems obvious to us because we read all the theories on the internet.  The first time I read AGoT I didn't pick up on it.  I don't see how Littlefinger could possibly know or have any solid basis of suspicion that R+L=J. 

Ned was away at war for a long time. As honorable as he was, it's understandable that he might fool around and have a bastard.  I think people give Littlefinger more credit than he deserves. He thrives in chaos but isn't all-knowing or unbeatable. 

But still, you may be right.  I just don't see where GRRM has hinted at it.

[Dragonsbone]

35 minutes ago, A Bong of Ice and Fire said:

It would just be wild speculation, really. The fact that no one talks about it in the books indicates that there is no evidence out there to suggest Rhaegar and Lyanna had a child.  Lyanna was stashed far away from any city or holdfast.  Who would know besides the Kingsguard there and the nursemaids?  Even Ned seemed to have no idea.

R+L=J only seems obvious to us because we read all the theories on the internet.  The first time I read AGoT I didn't pick up on it.  I don't see how Littlefinger could possibly know or have any solid basis of suspicion that R+L=J. 

Ned was away at war for a long time. As honorable as he was, it's understandable that he might fool around and have a bastard.  I think people give Littlefinger more credit than he deserves. He thrives in chaos but isn't all-knowing or unbeatable. 

But still, you may be right.  I just don't see where GRRM has hinted at it.

The theories on the internet came up, because some people added 1 and 1 together. All we have is what is written. And no where does is states (yet), that R+L=J. But all the infos we have, so does Westeros. Simple rumors or tiny hints. No more. They don't even have to be true. But that is enough in the world to come up with rumors. So, out of all rumors, no one came up with this?

[A Bong of Ice and Fire]

The rest of Westeros didn't get to see Ned's fever dream like we did! In any case, since GRRM may never finish the books, we may never know.

[Dragonsbone]

36 minutes ago, A Bong of Ice and Fire said:

The rest of Westeros didn't get to see Ned's fever dream like we did! In any case, since GRRM may never finish the books, we may never know.

I already said in the post above, that I exclude Neds dream . 

And yes. Unfortunately we most likely will never know from the books. But we got the show. At least that no one can take me away. 

[shameeka]

Baelish  knows that Ned went to Tower of Joy to rescue Lyanna and instead came back with a baby claiming as his own bastard. Ned's reputation for being honorable was known worldwide. Baelish may have suspicions that Jon is actually Lyanna's child not Ned's but that's all he has, suspicions, not proofs.

[Ingelheim]

Show-wise, yes, he knows about it. I'm not really sure about Book LF though.

[Graydon Hicks]

for your consideration, have you considered that that LF knew about rhaegar and lyanna from the start, and only suspected jon's heritage recently, after seeing him up close? look at how stannis already suspected that ned was lying about being jons parent when he saw jon at the wall. he comments on how it wasnt in neds character to father a child out of wedlock, to commit any kind of dishonor.

i have a theory that LF is the one to blame for the whole of roberts rebellion, by intercepting what ever message lyanna might have sent to witnerfell to tell her father what she was doing by breaking her bretrothal to robert baratheon. petyr hated brandon stark for beating him in that fight, and winning catelyn's affection. he could have easily taken lyanna message, altering it somehow, then havingit sent on to the starks, knowing how brandon would react. every description i have seen of him makes him seem like robert in personality. he knows brandon would head straight for KL and demand the rhaegar answer for running off with his sister. and LF knows that aerys, in his erratic state would immediately punish brandon somehow, maybe execute him, maybe exile, maybe imprisonment, but what ever happens, brandon is removed for m he field of play, and thus should open up the way for LF to woo Cat, while punishing brandon for humiliating him. he likely didnt realize that aerys would go a bit farther than simply punishing brandon stark. then her comes eddard stark, and ends up marrying cat in his brothers place., foiling LF's hopes.

but i digress. i mean to say that i think that petyr had something to do with why the starks and everyone else believed that rhaegar ran off with lynna as a kidnapping, rather than an elopement.and we now know that it was an elopement, since gilly found that pasage in that biography about this high septon issuing an annulment for rheagr over his marriage to elia, so he could marry someone else.

[Pecan]

The problem is that there's zero textual evidence that Littlefinger, Varys, or anyone else has knowledge or strong suspicions about the truth of Jon's parentage, other than Checkov's Howland Reed. Sure, it may be an absurd notion that in all of Westeros, nobody has connected the dots, especially these two individuals that make it their business to know as much about everyone as possible. But I think that's what we're supposed to believe. If that weren't the case, George would have dropped a hint somewhere.