Ironborn Mythos (Pt. 1): The Grey King, our Lord and Savior

[Crowfood's Daughter]

Hello Everyone!  The last topic I posted discussed the brotherly struggle between the Grey King and Garth the Green.  The topic I am posting today is something related that I have had on the backburner for some time, but as luck would have it, I finally found the motivation to at least start something I thought to ambitious to take on.  The discussion with my fellow board members has helped tremendously.  In that respect, I would like to give a big thanks to Painkillerjane , Hiemal, unchained, Ravenousreader, LmL, Bluetiger, Isobelharper, and if you are still out there...alaskansandman.   So now that I have finally gotten around to it, this essay will explore The Grey King and Drowned God Mythos a bit more closely.  Enjoy!

What is the Drowned God Religion?

"Let Theon your servant be born again from the sea, as you were," Aeron Greyjoy intoned. "Bless him with salt, bless him with stone, bless him with steel. Nephew, do you still know the words?"     "What is dead may never die," Theon said, remembering.  "What is dead may never die," his uncle echoed, "but rises again, harder and stronger. Stand."

According to TWOIAF, the Ironmen believe themselves a race set apart from the rest of mankind and consider themselves closer kin to merlings and fish.  It is true there are several differences such as the Ironborn reverence for the old way and many mysteries surrounding ancient artifacts and structures such as Castle Pyke, Nagga’s Bones and the Seastone Chair.  Another difference we see with the Ironborn is their worship of the Drowned God, a deity who dwells in his watery halls beneath the waves.  The Forsaken chapter has provided us with a glimpse of how the Ironborn depict their Drowned God.  Many religions traditionally choose to depict their deity as wise, strong and majestic, sometimes with animalistic aspects.  I was quite taken aback by the description of the Drowned God.

“All gods are lies, but yours is laughable. A pale white thing in the likeness of a man, his limbs broken and swollen and his hair flipping in the water while fish nibble at his face. What fool would worship that?”

Indeed, Why would the Ironborn worship something in the likeness of a dead, pale, drowned and bloated thing, a literal drowned man?  The answer of course is in the mantra of the Ironborn religion itself: “what is dead may never die, but rises harder and stronger”.  Ah yes, this most likely means there are tales of their Drowned God rising from the dead.  A god too mighty for even death who rose from the sea harder and stronger.  Similar to many religions around the world, the death resurrection of a god or Christ-like hero is one of the most universal stories in both religion and myth so the Ironborn having a similar version of this is nothing out of the ordinary.

From the LmL essays we have learned the Drowned God is most likely referring to a type of meteor impact which occurred in the ocean somewhere near the Iron Islands.  This makes perfect sense as the Bloodstone Emperor was said to worship a stone which fell from the sky and practiced dark arts, torture, and necromancy.  The way the Bloodstone Emperor is portrayed in TWOIAF, it seem as though the he had found a way (or at least he thought he had) to manipulate this stone that fell from the sky and his dark arts rested in this power.  Likewise, The Grey King’s kingship came from the sea and from the Drowned God who dwells beneath it.

I would argue that the Drowned God religion has more parallels with Christianity than what initially meets the eye.  In addition to a ritual baptism of infants, Christianity believes in something called the Holy Trinity—God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit…all being aspects of one God.  This is somewhat echoed in the faith of the seven where there are seven aspects of one god.  I would argue TWOIAF gave the Grey King a very interesting Christ-like parallel.  For those of you who have ever attended a Christian church, you are probably familiar with the Apostles Creed.  The worldbook provides an uncannily similar description, except, instead of ascending to heaven, he Grey King descends to take his rightful place at the right hand of the Drowned God.        

Apostles Creed

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
Maker of heaven and earth.
And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died and was buried.
He descended into hell.
On the third day He rose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty.
From thence He will come to judge the living and the dead.

TWOIAF

From there he ruled the Iron Islands for a thousand years, until his very skin had turned as grey as his hair and beard. Only then did he cast aside his driftwood crown and walk into the sea, descending to the Drowned God’s watery halls to take his rightful place at his right hand.

It is said by Aeron as he drowns his faithful “Lord God who drowned for us,” the priest prayed, in a voice as deep as the sea, “let Emmond your servant be reborn from the sea, as you were.”  This sounds very much like the sacrifice of Christ who also ‘died for us’ and was subsequently resurrected. Now we don’t really see how the stone that fell from the sky becomes reborn, and maybe it does as it is said Dawn was forged from the heart of a falling star…so yeah maybe it was that kind of a rebirth where it rises harder and stronger…but I don’t think that is precisely what the Ironborn are referring to.  As we have seen from the discussions regarding the Grey King, all of the symbolism points toward a fiery rebirth into an Azor Ahai type character.  It just shows up time and time again.   I believe this is the key to the idea of what is dead may never die, but rises harder and stronger.  The perfect example of this is the ghost of Renly.  Renly symbolizes a murdered green horned figure and the character we see in the Battle of the Blackwater is no longer a true green Renly, but rather Renly's ghost in a sense.  If we look at it as kind of a resurrection, we see Renly as more of an AA figure with his possession of the fire of the Gods.  Take a look at his resurrection, unRenly is not as green as he appears. his fire resurrection has turned his armor grey through the ashes of the burning crops.

Ser Dontos laughed and hopped from one leg to the other, almost falling. “They came up through the ashes while the river was burning. The river, Stannis was neck deep in the river, and they took him from the rear. Oh, to be a knight again, to have been part of it! His own men hardly fought, they say. Some ran but more bent the knee and went over, shouting for Lord Renly! What must Stannis have thought when he heard that? I had it from Osney Kettleblack who had it from Ser Osmund, but Ser Balon’s back now and his men say the same, and the gold cloaks as well. We’re delivered, sweetling! They came up the roseroad and along the riverbank, through all the fields Stannis had burned, the ashes puffing up around their boots and turning all their armor grey, but oh! the banners must have been bright, the golden rose and golden lion and all the others, the Marbrand tree and the Rowan, Tarly’s huntsman and Redwyne’s grapes and Lady Oakheart’s leaf. All the westermen, all the power of Highgarden and Casterly Rock! Lord Tywin himself had their right wing on the north side of the river, with Randyll Tarly commanding the center and Mace Tyrell the left, but the vanguard won the fight. They plunged through Stannis like a lance through a pumpkin, every man of them howling like some demon in steel. And do you know who led the vanguard? Do you? Do you? Do you?” “Robb?” It was too much to be hoped, but … “It was Lord Renly! Lord Renly in his green armor, with the fires shimmering off his golden antlers!

So instead of the Drowned God dying and being reborn, like Jesus, it is the Grey King, the avatar of their god.  It is the Grey King who dies and is resurrected and later descends to the watery halls to sit at the right hand of the Drowned God.  Just as Garth was considered god-like and is linked to the Storm-God mythos, the Grey King can be linked cohesively with the Drowned God deity as both brothers were the actual antagonists of the Grey-Green cycle, both are loosely aspects of the ‘Drowned God’ and the ‘Storm God’. 

Now, It is believed the Drowned God has the power to resurrect those who have drowned, and the Ironborn seem to have developed their own version of CPR where the ‘kiss of life’ is administered to the faithful servants who wish to become priests of the Drowned God religion.  Although it is uncertain if there is an actual Drowned God, there have been several instances of drownings or suspected drownings where many readers believe the character might have had some sort of divine intervention.  The best example of this is of course Patchface who washed up after three days and was naked, cold and lifeless.  There is also Davos who washed up on the spears of the Merling King after the Blackwater, which also had some very bizarre occurrences.  Other characters with some questionable drowning circumstances include Aeron, Tyrion, Moqorro and Elder Brother of Quiet Isle.  Seeing these in the books, it makes you wonder if there is something going on with these water resurrections. Something magical maybe??????????

The Kiss of Life

Yes, it seems the Ironborn have developed their own version of CPR which the Ironborn dub the Kiss of life.  Aeron shows us exactly how the kiss of life is performed in The Prophet chapter showing mouth-to-mouth resuscitation and even chest compressions. 

His drowned men formed a circle around the dead boy, praying. Norjen worked his arms whilst Rus knelt astride him, pumping on his chest, but all moved aside for Aeron. He pried apart the boy’s cold lips with his fingers and gave Emmond the kiss of life, and again, and again, until the sea came gushing from his mouth. The boy began to cough and spit, and his eyes blinked open, full of fear. Another one returned. It was a sign of the Drowned God’s favor, men said. Every other priest lost a man from time to time, even Tarle the Thrice-Drowned, who had once been thought so holy that he was picked to crown a king. But never Aeron Greyjoy. He was the Damphair, who had seen the god’s own watery halls and returned to tell of it. “Rise,” he told the sputtering boy as he slapped him on his naked back. “You have drowned and been returned to us. What is dead can never die.” “But rises.” The boy coughed violently, bringing up more water. “Rises again.” Every word was bought with pain, but that was the way of the world; a man must fight to live. “Rises again.” Emmond staggered to his feet. “Harder. And stronger.” “You belong to the god now,” Aeron told him. The other drowned men gathered round and each gave him a punch and a kiss to welcome him to the brotherhood.

When performed by priests, the kiss of life is considered a holy act, part of the holy rites when fully giving one to their God.  When looking at this holy ritual it seems like this is the key to the death and rebirth of their Christ-like hero.  A drowning with subsequent rebirth a la kiss of life was most likely how the Grey King’s resurrection went down.  After being tempered by water, the Grey King was given the kiss of life causing a fiery resurrection. 

Similar to the religion of the Ironborn, the religion of R’hllor practices a parallel holy rite when a follower of the Lord of Light dies, the last kiss. In practice, priests of R’hllor fill their mouths with fire and breathe flame into the deceased, as they believe that fire cleanses.  Much to the astonishment of Thoros, this last kiss is what resurrected Beric Dondarrion, and it is after these resurrections Beric began to reveal corpse-like Azor Ahai greenseer symbolism.  Although it is called the last kiss by the R’hllor religion, Thoros did once refer to this last kiss as the kiss of life.

Harwin begged me to give her the kiss of life, but it had been too long. I would not do it, so Lord Beric put his lips to hers instead, and the flame of life passed from him to her. And … she rose. May the Lord of Light protect us. She rose.”

Yes, Cat rose, and she had risen harder and stronger.

Death by Water

It is more than evident the Grey King underwent a re-birth and fiery transformation of sorts.  I believe a fiery kiss of life is what resurrected our Grey King, but before he was resurrected, he had to die, he had to drown for us.  I believe the key to this drowning lay in the legend of Nagga.

On the crown of the hill four-and-forty monstrous stone ribs rose from the earth like the trunks of great pale trees. The sight made Aeron’s heart beat faster. Nagga had been the first sea dragon, the mightiest ever to rise from the waves. She fed on krakens and leviathans and drowned whole islands in her wrath, yet the Grey King had slain her and the Drowned God had changed her bones to stone so that men might never cease to wonder at the courage of the first of kings. Nagga’s ribs became the beams and pillars of his longhall, just as her jaws became his throne. For a thousand years and seven he reigned here, Aeron recalled. Here he took his mermaid wife and planned his wars against the Storm God. From here he ruled both stone and salt, wearing robes of woven seaweed and a tall pale crown made from Nagga’s teeth.

As most of you are already aware, the ribcage of Nagga’s Bones is most likely the hull of a large weirwood boat, and that is EXACTY what TWOIAF states the Grey King made…ships from demon weirwood trees. In addition to Nagga being a ship, I see Nagga being a shipwreck. I believe the text is suggesting a shipwrecked person or group of people who washed upon the shores of Old Wyk. It is known the First Men were never seafaring people, so it might be safe to say many of them had never seen a boat before the Ironmen started coming around. Primitive cultures coming into "first contact" with more advanced technology might result in the technology explained by the supernatural which could cause a large boat to be called a sea monster of sorts. If the First Men had never seen a boat in their lives, they may well think such a ship is a sea dragon. A boat on the waves of a supernatural storm like the drowning of the waters could even be viewed as CAUSING such an unusual event. But wait! If this sea dragon becomes wrecked and washes to shore along with a certain survivor or a group of survivors, the First Men would believe the survivors had slain the sea monster. What is the wood of a wrecked ship? The answer to that riddle is driftwood, and the slaying of Nagga is the answer to the Grey King’s death by water. He went down with his ship and the two were washed to the shores of Old Wyk.

“We did not come to these holy lands from godless lands across the seas," the priest Sauron Salt-Tongue once said. "We came from beneath those seas, from the watery halls of the Drowned God who made us in his likeness and gave to us dominion over all the waters of the earth.”

Indeed, if the First Men believed Nagga was a sea dragon, where do you think the First Men would have assumed The Grey King and his people had come from?  Asshai? No, they would have thought the Grey King and his people came from the sea itself.  They would not have shared a common language, and who is to argue when is someone thinks you killed a sea dragon anyway? 

  The Bloodstone Emperor: “ever the outcast, the wanderer from distant places”

When the daughter of the Opal Emperor succeeded him as the Amethyst Empress, her envious younger brother cast her down and slew her, proclaiming himself the Bloodstone Emperor and beginning a reign of terror. He practiced dark arts, torture, and necromancy, enslaved his people, took a tiger-woman for his bride, feasted on human flesh, and cast down the true gods to worship a black stone that had fallen from the sky. (Many scholars count the Bloodstone Emperor as the first High Priest of the sinister Church of Starry Wisdom, which persists to this day in many port cities throughout the known world). In the annals of the Further East, it was the Blood Betrayal, as his usurpation is named, that ushered in the age of darkness called the Long Night. Despairing of the evil that had been unleashed on earth, the Maiden-Made-of-Light turned her back upon the world, and the Lion of Night came forth in all his wroth to punish the wickedness of men.  

The Bloodstone Emperor sounds pretty awful doesn’t he, as if the devil himself was loosened upon ancient Essos doesn’t it?  I am going to play the devil’s advocate for a moment because I do not believe this guy is as bad as he sounds.  I do believe there are truths hidden in much of TWOIAF, and indeed I am sure there are truths to the Bloodstone Emperor.  I do believe however, there may have been a smear campaign at one point in time since this is also a guy who was forced to leave his homeland.

A perfect example of the is the smear campaign against Danny, our Stormborn lady who is another Azor Ahai figure.

“The old woman’s smile turned feral. “I have heard it said that the silver queen feeds them with the flesh of infants while she herself bathes in the blood of virgin girls and takes a different lover every night.”

Whoa… say it ain't so Danny! 

“If even half the stories coming back from Slaver’s Bay are true, this child is a monster. They say that she is bloodthirsty, that those who speak against her are impaled on spikes to die lingering deaths. They say she is a sorceress who feeds her dragons on the flesh of newborn babes, an oathbreaker who mocks the gods, breaks truces, threatens envoys, and turns on those who have served her loyally. They say her lust cannot be sated, that she mates with men, women, eunuchs, even dogs and children, and woe betide the lover who fails to satisfy her. She gives her body to men to take their souls in thrall.”

Yes, I would say the tales of the Bloodstone Emperor sound like rumors of a smear campaign.  It says he  practiced dark arts, torture, and necromancy?  I guess you could say the same thing for Aeron couldn’t you, since he waterboards people until they die then he brings them back to life…yes dark arts, torture and necromancy.  Maybe the Bloodstone Emperor was pure evil, who knows.  One thing I do agree with was a blood betrayal that ushered in the Long Night, and will leave it at that for the moment.  If you have read the grey/green topic you know what I am referring to. 

This is part 1

Here it is, what are your thoughts?

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

I like your thoughts.  

I am somewhat familiar with LmL's work, but generally don't take the time to read all his super long stuff. But did I read most of his info on the BSE and some of his more recent work on the Drowned God-meteor impact stuff. Side note - I don't know if he has ever commented on this fact, but the God's Eye itself is likely the site of a meteor impact that created a "complex crater" which is a type of crater in which the center of the crater lifts back up after impact, just like how water acts when you drop a rock into it. A good real life example of a lake formed at a complex impact site is Lake Kamestastin in Canada.

Anyways, I really like the idea of the first Ironborn arriving on a weirwood ship. My only problem with it is, how would weirwood ribs of the ship become "impaled" in the ground so to speak? Do you think the survivors purposely put the trees in the ground and built a hall with them? Even if that is the case, it seems weird to me that all the ribs are still standing, thousands of years later. You would think that, with the ground shifting over time, they would eventually all fall down.

I think it makes more sense if the ribs were simply yet another circle of weirwood trees like we have seen at High Heart and north of the wall. And they are still standing because they are rooted deep into the ground. But I still really like your idea of the ship, since it would explain a few different things very neatly, as you illustrated in the OP.

As for the parallels to Christianity, I will add that the titles of the Aeron Damphair chapters (so far) "The Prophet", "The Drowned Man", and "The Forsaken", as well as the opening line from the forsaken chapter It was always midnight in the belly of the beast are all biblical references to Jonah. (100% credit to Preston Jacobs)

EDIT: LOL I could just ask him. Hey @LmL, my local ASOIAF meteor expert, what do you think of the God's Eye being a complex impact crater? It might even be your idea originally and I was unaware. I only came across it recently in another thread.

[Unchained]

Hey @Crowfood's Daughter good to see you starting topics again.  Even your short ones have great stuff.  The symbolic analysis is enjoyable, challenging, and rewarding.  But, on some level I feel like the reason to do it is to find the real events and people behind the first Long Night's drama to whatever extent they wind up existing.  Its like a whole other story we have to work for.  Thats what I always like best about your topics.  You present a very plausible and likely scenario where the BE and the GK are the same person and an event in a shipwreck.  

 

A clue to the weirwood boat arriving during the Ragnarok meteor shower ay be the boat similarity to the Naglfar.  A ship made of nails and a ship made of future bone are not that far apart.  The GK gets a lot of credit for giving the Ironborn what was at the time advanced technology.  You move the needle further from simple culture hero to person literally who taught them what made them unique, and also was a cultural hero too.  Also, yea I agree that the Drowned God religion is basically like Christianity warped over time to fit in a hard place in a fantasy book where real Christianity never had to fit.  Moses' brother, his prophet, was named Aaron.  Moses was put in the reeds in the first place because the Pharaoh ordered all the male children drowned due to his fear he would be overthrown by them in a way similar to the kings that locked up women who were afraid of their prophesized children you go over in your previous work.  Not sure if the George is making that connection, but he may be.  How do you like the GK/BSE as the tattered prince fleeing his fate as a sacrifice?

 

So, if they are the same person does that mean you think the GK was dragon-blooded?  Do you think there were greenseers in Asshai?  Or are the dragon blooded seers a unique combination of Asshai and Westros blood?  

[LmL]

3 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

EDIT: LOL I could just ask him. Hey @LmL, my local ASOIAF meteor expert, what do you think of the God's Eye being a complex impact crater? It might even be your idea originally and I was unaware. I only came across it recently in another thread.

Yes, I am aware. A guy named "An American Thinks" did a great youtube video about this, very scientific and all that:

 

Only problem is that for a lake to form in the crater it would take a lot more than 10,000 years. I don't think that's as big a problem as this guy does, because its fantasy and I don't think George is beyond just 'making it so.'  So, yes, it's high on the suspect list of possible impact locations. 

As for the boat theory, which has been around a long time, the thing that sold me was this line:

Quote

It was there beneath the arch of Nagga's ribs that his drowned men found him, standing tall and stern with his long black hair blowing in the wind. "Is it time?" Rus asked. Aeron gave a nod, and said, "It is. Go forth and sound the summons."

The idea is that the 'ribcage' is the flipped-over hull of a boat which had weirwood ribbing. This would create an arch, with the keel of the boat at the crest of the ribs like the sternum bone. A weirwood circle wouldn't make an arch, and wouldn't really look like a ribcage. I think what is being described is the flipped-over boat hull. That would look just like a ribcage, and would stay in place just fine, gradually turning to stone and looking quite impressive. And as Crowfood's Daughter said, the Grey King WAS said to have built a weirwood boat... I mean it's right there. There's the legend, there's the boat. Disguising it as a ribcage is very creative and makes for a satisfying answer. And of course it also jibes with all the other clues about the Ironborn coming from somewhere over the sea. 

Now in terms of symbolism, it is meant to be like a weirwood circle after a fashion, so you aren't wrong in your thinking imo. When Urron Redhand slaughters 13 kings and 50 priests and makes Nagga's ribs run red, that is implying human sacrifice to weirwoods, I believe, which is something I wrote about in my latest edition of "super long stuff by LmL."  Note also that a place called "Sea Dragon Point" is one of the last places you can still find weirwood circles. Yet another way of reinforcing the symbolic relationship between sea dragon symbolism and weirwood symbolism, I would say. 

2 hours ago, Unchained said:

So, if they are the same person does that mean you think the GK was dragon-blooded?  Do you think there were greenseers in Asshai?  Or are the dragon blooded seers a unique combination of Asshai and Westros bloo

If I may, I would suggest that the dragon people from the east might have needed to come to Westeros to get the greenseer mojo, which would make them a unique combination of Asshai and Westeros. 

But, I also have an alternate theory about skinchangers on the Isle of Leng and a far-eastern origin for the "green men" of whom Garth descends, which would put the greenseer magic way back into pre-Long Night Great Empire of the Dawn... which is probably right. Don't forget that one of the gemstone eyed kingly ghosts Dany saw in AGOT had eyes of jade. Targaryen looks, with green eyes. There is an entire "green dragon" line of symbolism which reinforces this idea, but I can't say for sure whether it's the result of the dragons coming West, or if it was already a thing out west. I suspect that the dragonbond, which must have existed before the Long Night because of the pre-LN fused stone at Battle Isle and 5 Forts, was the product of greenseer magic, and if this is so, then we need greenseer mojo in the east in ancient times. Still, they could have came to Westeros in search of magic long before the LN, and returned with it to bond with dragons. It's pretty speculative, and I am not sure we will ever know. But what is important, I think, is the idea of combining greenseer blood of Westeros with dragon blood from the east. Jon obviously represents that, as does Bloodraven, and so does Dany because of the Blackwood blood infusion followed by three generations of incest. I have wondered if it wasn't this Blackwood blood that enabled her to wake the dragons - meaning the combo of Blackwood and dragon blood. 

[Prof. Cecily]

I very much enjoyed the OP and the ensuing discussion!

The linking of Nagga's ribs and a weirwood built ship is most evocative.

As is this:

8 hours ago, Crowfood's Daughter said:

I believe this is the key to the idea of what is dead may never die, but rises harder and stronger.  The perfect example of this is the ghost of Renly.  Renly symbolizes a murdered green horned figure and the character we see in the Battle of the Blackwater is no longer a true green Renly, but rather Renly's ghost in a sense.  If we look at it as kind of a resurrection, we see Renly as more of an AA figure with his possession of the fire of the Gods. 

7 hours ago, Crowfood's Daughter said:

“It was Lord Renly! Lord Renly in his green armor, with the fires shimmering off his golden antlers!

We know, not only we the readers but those within the saga, that ghost of Renley is a fraud/ploy.

It was ser Garlan Tyrell wearing Renley's armour.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Garlan_Tyrell

And guess who suggested the idea?

Quote

 

As in a swordfight, sometimes it is best to try a different stroke. "It's said you fought magnificently in the battle . . . almost as well as Lord Renly's ghost beside you. A Sworn Brother has no secrets from his Lord Commander. Tell me, ser. Who was wearing Renly's armor?"

For a moment Loras Tyrell looked as though he might refuse, but in the end he remembered his vows. "My brother," he said sullenly. "Renly was taller than me, and broader in the chest. His armor was too loose on me, but it suited Garlan well."

"Was the masquerade your notion, or his?"

"Lord Littlefinger suggested it. He said it would frighten Stannis's ignorant men-at-arms."

"And so it did." And some knights and lordlings too. "Well, you gave the singers something to make rhymes about, I suppose that's not to be despised. ..."

A Storm of Swords - Jaime VIII

I think the parallels with Christian miracle stories is most indicative of GRRM's ideas about religious thought.

This is something I'd like to expand upon, once GRRM brings forth the following books in the saga.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

@LmL

OK, you have sold me on the boat theory. I still think it is slightly odd that the ribs sunk into the ground like that and kept the rib cage shape, but that is a super nitpick in context with all the evidence you guys cited here.

As for the blood of Jon and Dany, I personally think that Dayne blood is also a crucial factor for some reason, or at least whatever blood Dyanna Dayne had running through her veins. There is evidence that Bloodraven went to a whole lot of trouble to put Egg on the throne. In particular, the moniker of "the Unlikely" seems like GRRM is waving a big red flag telling us to look carefully at Egg's succession. And the only good reason I can see for BR to want Egg on the throne over everyone else is because he had Dayne blood. Based on the info we have on House Dayne, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they had some powerful genes and/or were related to the GEotD rulers.

And if that is the case, than any child of Ashara Dayne could also have a magically significant blood combo, if B+A=somebody turns out to be a thing.

EDIT: Also, just thinking about the formation of the God's Eye. Mayhaps the impact crater was simply covered with a shit ton of ice in the LN, and when the LN ended and the ice melted, the crater inherently became a lake. At a minimum, I could definitely see GRRM being fine with that pseudo-scientific explanation.

[Crowfood's Daughter]

7 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I like your thoughts.  

I am somewhat familiar with LmL's work, but generally don't take the time to read all his super long stuff. But did I read most of his info on the BSE and some of his more recent work on the Drowned God-meteor impact stuff. Side note - I don't know if he has ever commented on this fact, but the God's Eye itself is likely the site of a meteor impact that created a "complex crater" which is a type of crater in which the center of the crater lifts back up after impact, just like how water acts when you drop a rock into it. A good real life example of a lake formed at a complex impact site is Lake Kamestastin in Canada.

Anyways, I really like the idea of the first Ironborn arriving on a weirwood ship. My only problem with it is, how would weirwood ribs of the ship become "impaled" in the ground so to speak? Do you think the survivors purposely put the trees in the ground and built a hall with them? Even if that is the case, it seems weird to me that all the ribs are still standing, thousands of years later. You would think that, with the ground shifting over time, they would eventually all fall down.

I think it makes more sense if the ribs were simply yet another circle of weirwood trees like we have seen at High Heart and north of the wall. And they are still standing because they are rooted deep into the ground. But I still really like your idea of the ship, since it would explain a few different things very neatly, as you illustrated in the OP.

As for the parallels to Christianity, I will add that the titles of the Aeron Damphair chapters (so far) "The Prophet", "The Drowned Man", and "The Forsaken", as well as the opening line from the forsaken chapter It was always midnight in the belly of the beast are all biblical references to Jonah. (100% credit to Preston Jacobs)

EDIT: LOL I could just ask him. Hey @LmL, my local ASOIAF meteor expert, what do you think of the God's Eye being a complex impact crater? It might even be your idea originally and I was unaware. I only came across it recently in another thread.

The Jonah stuff is more places than you think. Davos didn't go the belly of the whale establishment  for naught. Jonah was supposed to go to Ninevah....a horrible place full of horrible godless heathens. A huge storm arises and the sailors, realizing this is no ordinary storm, cast lots and discover that Jonah is to blame. The sailors try to dump as much cargo as possible before giving up, but feel forced to throw him overboard, at which point the sea calms. Then Jonah is swallowed and ends up in the belly of a whale. Eventually Jonah is spat out when he repents and agrees to go to Nineveh.

Davos was cast away after some major storms prompted Saan to desert the Stannis cause. When Davos washed up on Sweetsister he was found in “The Belly of the Whale” establishment. Manderly commands Davos to go to Skagos which is supposed to he inhabited by savages and cannibals. The last place someone would want to go.

Jonah was sent to be a prophet, to get the savages of Ninevah to repent and embrace Jonah's God. Davos was sent as an envoy to try and get the Manderly's to embrace Stannis as King. These were both hefty tasks!

Davos is inspired by etymology of Davy Jones

"Davy Jones"

Linguists consider it most plausible that "Davy" was inspired by Saint David of Wales, whose name was often invoked by Welsh sailors, and "Jones" by the Biblical Jonah. His symbol is the leek. Davos’ symbol is the onion which is in the same genus or family as the leek.

Davy Jones's Locker, is an idiom for the bottom of the sea: the state of death among drowned sailors and shipwrecks. Davos has been theorized to have drowned during Battle of Blackwater. This near drowning and the loss sustained at Blackwater, to include the loss of his fingerbones was a turning point for this character.

 

There is quite a bit that I still need to cover.

[Bluetiger]

Quote

The discussion with my fellow board members has helped tremendously.  In that respect, I would like to give a big thanks to Painkillerjane , Hiemal, unchained, Ravenousreader, LmL, Bluetiger, Isobelharper, and if you are still out there...alaskansandman

Thanks ! and congrats on another great essay.

 

14 hours ago, Crowfood's Daughter said:

Spoiler

“All gods are lies, but yours is laughable. A pale white thing in the likeness of a man, his limbs broken and swollen and his hair flipping in the water while fish nibble at his face. What fool would worship that?”

 

 

That description is quite reminiscent of Draugrs, the Wights of Norse Mythology:

(From Wikipedia)

Quote

The draugr or draug (Old Norse: draugr, plural draugar; modern Icelandic: draugur, Faroese: dreygur and Danish, Swedish and Norwegian: draug), also called aptrganga or aptrgangr, literally "again-walker" (Icelandic: afturganga) is an undead creature from Norse mythology.

The word draugr can be traced to a Proto-Indo European stem *dʰrowgʰos "phantom", from *dʰrewgʰ- "deceive". The Old Norse meaning of the word is a revenant.

The will appears to be strong, strong enough to draw the hugr [animate will] back to one's body. These reanimated individuals were known as draugar. However, though the dead might live again, they could also die again. Draugar die a "second death" as Chester Gould calls it, when their bodies decay, are burned, dismembered or otherwise destroyed.

Draugar live in their graves, often guarding treasure buried with them in their burial mound. They are animated corpses — unlike ghosts they have a corporeal body with similar physical abilities as in life. Older literature makes clear distinctions between sea-draugar and land-draugar.

(...)

Draugar possess superhuman strength, can increase their size at will, and carry the unmistakable stench of decay. "The appearance of a draugr was that of a dead body: swollen, blackened and generally hideous to look at."^[2] They are undead figures from Norse and Icelandic mythology that appear to retain some semblance of intelligence. They exist either to guard their treasure, wreak havoc on living beings, or torment those who had wronged them in life. The draugr's ability to increase its size also increased its weight, and the body of the draugr was described as being extremely heavy. Thorolf of Eyrbyggja saga was "uncorrupted, and with an ugly look about him... swollen to the size of an ox," and his body was so heavy that it could not be raised without levers.^[3][4] They are also noted for the ability to rise from the grave as wisps of smoke and "swim" through solid rock,^[5] which would be useful as a means of exiting their graves.

(...)

Some draugar are immune to weapons, and only a hero has the strength and courage needed to stand up to so formidable an opponent. In legends the hero would often have to wrestle the draugr back to his grave, thereby defeating him, since weapons would do no good. A good example of this kind of fight is found in Hrómundar saga Gripssonar. Although iron could injure a draugr, as is the case with many supernatural creatures, it would not be sufficient to stop it.^[17] Sometimes the hero is required to dispose of the body in unconventional ways. The preferred method is to cut off the draugr's head, burn the body, and dump the ashes in the sea; the emphasis being on making absolutely sure the draugr was dead and gone.^[18]

The draugar were said to be either hel-blár ("death-blue") or, conversely, nár-fölr ("corpse-pale").^[6] The "death-blue" color was not actually grey but was a dark blue or maroon hue that covered the entire body. Glámr, the undead shepherd of Grettis saga, was reported to be dark blue in color^[19] and in Laxdæla saga, the bones of a dead sorceress who had appeared in dreams were dug up and found to be "blue and evil looking.

(...)

Traditionally, a pair of open iron scissors were placed on the chest of the recently deceased, and straws or twigs might be hidden among their clothes. The big toes were tied together or needles were driven through the soles of the feet in order to keep the dead from being able to walk. Tradition also held that the coffin should be lifted and lowered in three different directions as it was carried from the house to confuse a possible draugr's sense of direction.

The most effective means of preventing the return of the dead was believed to be the corpse door. A special door was built, through which the corpse was carried feet-first with people surrounding it so the corpse couldn't see where it was going. The door was then bricked up to prevent a return. It is speculated that this belief began in Denmark and spread throughout the Norse culture. The belief was founded on the idea that the dead could only leave through the way they entered.

In Eyrbyggja saga, the draugar infesting the home of the Icelander Kiartan were driven off by holding a "door-doom". One by one the draugar were summoned to the door-doom and given judgment and were forced out of the home by this legal method. The home was then purified with holy water to ensure they never came back.

BTW, @LmL, there's another creature from Scandinavian folklore that might have been GRRM's inspiration...

Nisse

Quote

The nisse/tomte was often imagined as a small, elderly man (size varies from a few inches to about half the height of an adult man), often with a full beard; dressed in the traditional farmer garb, consisting of a pull-over woolen tunic belted at the waist and knee breeches with stockings. This was still the common male dress in rural Scandinavia in the 17th century, giving an indication of when the idea of the tomte spread. However, there are also folktales where he is believed to be a shapeshifter able to take a shape far larger than an adult man, and other tales where the nisse is believed to have a single, cyclopean eye. In modern Denmark, nisser are often seen as beardless, wearing grey and red woolens with a red cap. Since nisser are thought to be skilled in illusions and sometimes able to make themselves invisible, one was unlikely to get more than brief glimpses of him no matter what he looked like. Norwegian folklore states that he has four fingers, and sometimes with pointed ears and eyes reflecting light in the dark, like those of a cat.

VS

Quote

The children are smaller than humans and have nut-brown skin, dappled like a deer's with paler spots. They have large ears that can hear things that no man could hear.

They usually have large gold and green eyes slitted like those of a cat, allowing them to see in dark passages. Children with mossy green or blood red eyes have the gift of greensight and are known as greenseers.

Their hands have only three fingers and a thumb, with sharp black claws instead of nails. The children are slight, quick, and graceful.

(AWOIAF)

So, this seems to strongly imply that Nissa Nissa was in fact a Child of the Forest, as you've suggested long ago...

[LmL]

Yes, and in fact I alluded to this briefly in my first essay - I mentioned the "mischievous elf / helpful elf translation of Nissa, which refers to the legend that you cited above. I've been planning on going back to it when I talked about cotf again... I'm not sure if I'd ever come across the part about them having cats eyes though, that's really terrific. 

[LmL]

10 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

@LmL

OK, you have sold me on the boat theory.

Sweet! Now, can I interest you in this fine bridge I have for sale? Your weirwood boat will look simply stunning as it sails beneath. You can't go wrong!

10 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I still think it is slightly odd that the ribs sunk into the ground like that and kept the rib cage shape, but that is a super nitpick in context with all the evidence you guys cited here.

As for the blood of Jon and Dany, I personally think that Dayne blood is also a crucial factor for some reason, or at least whatever blood Dyanna Dayne had running through her veins. There is evidence that Bloodraven went to a whole lot of trouble to put Egg on the throne. In particular, the moniker of "the Unlikely" seems like GRRM is waving a big red flag telling us to look carefully at Egg's succession. And the only good reason I can see for BR to want Egg on the throne over everyone else is because he had Dayne blood. Based on the info we have on House Dayne, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they had some powerful genes and/or were related to the GEotD rulers.

And if that is the case, than any child of Ashara Dayne could also have a magically significant blood combo, if B+A=somebody turns out to be a thing.

Yes, you know I agree about Dayne blood being linked to the GEotD and therefore being important. I mean, just taking the broad view, George retconned two bloodlines into Daenerys after AGOT - the Blackwoods and Daynes. Those are only like two of the most mysterious / magical houses in the story, so you think it's a coincidence? I doubt it. My hunch is that Mel is Bloodraven's daughter, and therefore part Blackwood, and the Starks got 2 infusions of Blackwood in fairly recent times, and Dany is as much as "half Blackwood," though I know genetics doesn't work quite like that. I think Jon actually has Blackwood great-grandmothers on both sides if I am not mistaken, though perhaps someone can correct me if that's slightly off. 

I can only assume that if one or both of these bloodlines is important in a magical sense, George will give us more clues that this is the case in the final books. 

The other House I think we will be learning more about is the Hightowers, the other most mysterious and magical house we don't know much about in the books. 

10 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

EDIT: Also, just thinking about the formation of the God's Eye. Mayhaps the impact crater was simply covered with a shit ton of ice in the LN, and when the LN ended and the ice melted, the crater inherently became a lake. At a minimum, I could definitely see GRRM being fine with that pseudo-scientific explanation.

Yes, that's kind of my take too. It's close enough to work for fantasy, in the way that the general idea of a cometary winter works as a basis for his LN / moon meteor without calculating how large a meteor would turn out the lights but not kill all living things (somewhere between 2 - 5 cubic miles of meteor, depending on the landing site, fwiw). And obviously type idea of a comet that "blows up" any kind of moon is stretching physics pretty far. I think it's fine for a fantasy written by a guy who likes to write sci-fi about people living on Venus in the classic 60's style. 

[Bluetiger]

7 minutes ago, LmL said:

Yes, and in fact I alluded to this briefly in my first essay - I mentioned the "mischievous elf / helpful elf translation of Nissa, which refers to the legend that you cited above. I've been planning on going back to it when I talked about cotf again... I'm not sure if I'd ever come across the part about them having cats eyes though, that's really terrific. 

And four fingers... One similiarity can be easily dismissed as coincidence... but IMO it's very unlikely that it's just a happenstance that COTF share their two most characteristic features with creatures from mythology GRRM used to study at university...

[Crowfood's Daughter]

3 hours ago, LmL said:

Yes, and in fact I alluded to this briefly in my first essay - I mentioned the "mischievous elf / helpful elf translation of Nissa, which refers to the legend that you cited above. I've been planning on going back to it when I talked about cotf again... I'm not sure if I'd ever come across the part about them having cats eyes though, that's really terrific. 

Maybe a woman with "cat's eyes" and claws might be mistaken for a tiger woman, or a catwoman?  You know the BSE took a tiger woman to wife...just a thought.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

12 minutes ago, Crowfood's Daughter said:

Maybe a woman with "cat's eyes" and claws might be mistaken for a tiger woman, or a catwoman?  You know the BSE took a tiger woman to wife...just a thought.

WOW that is actually a wonderful thought!  I always assumed "tiger woman" simply alluded to some sort of skinchanger, but an actual COTF would fit even better. And I was aware of some of that Davos stuff you mentioned but not all of it. Very cool stuff   

@LmL you were close, Jon's great great grandmother is Melantha Blackwood for the record. And I'll buy an LmL-approved bridge any day.  

Since you brought up the Hightowers, I'll share my quick thoughts on Battle Isle. I think the titular unknown battle was the Battle for the Dawn. We learned that in Essos during the LN, the Rhoyne was frozen as far south as the Selhoru, which is almost the exact same latitude as Battle Isle, making the isle a reasonable place for the forces of "winter" and "summer" to fight. And since we know of no major naval forces existing back then, it would make more sense if the water was frozen and the battle fought on land. And to be really speculative, I think the ice formations across Westeros effectively funneled the wight army to that spot, creating a Battle at Thermopylae type scenario. I'm not sure what the exact connection/significance is of the proximity of Starfall to Battle Isle, but I assume it's important. Like, AA settled down his family in Westeros after the LN and they split into the Houses Dayne and Hightower, or something... Maybe you have thoughts on that front  

3 hours ago, Blue Tiger said:

And four fingers... One similiarity can be easily dismissed as coincidence... but IMO it's very unlikely that it's just a happenstance that COTF share their two most characteristic features with creatures from mythology GRRM used to study at university...

 

While we are on the topic of COTF traits, I just want to point out that the COTF cat eyes are likely a consequence of living underground. And the White Walkers are also presumably forced to live underground, because they cannot withstand direct sunlight. So I'm just saying... they have been pseudo-roommates for thousands of years. And if my personal grand theory is correct (admittedly a big if), all the greenseers in the weirnet are alive underground as well, in the same fashion as BR. And GRRM has written a couple stories about humans mutating and splitting off into surface people and underground people who end up going to war. But really the correct solution to their problems may be to interbreed and recombine genes to prepare the human race for imminent climate change, or, make love not war. Will there be human-Other marriages/breeding for an ending mayhaps? Just making some observations here.  

[Crowfood's Daughter]

20 hours ago, Unchained said:

Hey @Crowfood's Daughter good to see you starting topics again.  Even your short ones have great stuff.  The symbolic analysis is enjoyable, challenging, and rewarding.  But, on some level I feel like the reason to do it is to find the real events and people behind the first Long Night's drama to whatever extent they wind up existing.  Its like a whole other story we have to work for.  Thats what I always like best about your topics.  You present a very plausible and likely scenario where the BE and the GK are the same person and an event in a shipwreck.  

A clue to the weirwood boat arriving during the Ragnarok meteor shower ay be the boat similarity to the Naglfar.  A ship made of nails and a ship made of future bone are not that far apart.  The GK gets a lot of credit for giving the Ironborn what was at the time advanced technology.  You move the needle further from simple culture hero to person literally who taught them what made them unique, and also was a cultural hero too.  Also, yea I agree that the Drowned God religion is basically like Christianity warped over time to fit in a hard place in a fantasy book where real Christianity never had to fit.  Moses' brother, his prophet, was named Aaron.  Moses was put in the reeds in the first place because the Pharaoh ordered all the male children drowned due to his fear he would be overthrown by them in a way similar to the kings that locked up women who were afraid of their prophesized children you go over in your previous work.  Not sure if the George is making that connection, but he may be.  How do you like the GK/BSE as the tattered prince fleeing his fate as a sacrifice?

So, if they are the same person does that mean you think the GK was dragon-blooded?  Do you think there were greenseers in Asshai?  Or are the dragon blooded seers a unique combination of Asshai and Westros blood?  

You know, I hadn't even connected the Nagifar, but that makes total sense as it comes from the East when the waters rise to give battle during Rangnarok.  That is probably exactly where George was going with that...pretty spot on. 

Moses was also known for parting the waters and the burning bush.  I can recall there is a GK legend about him taunting the SG to lash down and set a tree ablaze.

"How do you like the GK/BSE as the tattered prince fleeing his fate as a sacrifice?"  I love that idea BTW... not really sure why he fled but I like the idea LmL put forth that Asshai became too toxic.  I see it as the GK hightailing it out of there, but he could have been on a peaceful voyage for all we know, or maybe even going forth seeking retribution. 

I also think there is a good possibility there was something like greenseers in Essos.I am not sure about Asshai, but I do know there is a fabled people that sound a heck of a lot like the COTF

Quote

Ifequevron, meaning "wood walkers", is the Dothraki language name for a people who once lived in the forest. Located on a small western peninsula, Vaes Leisi is a ruined settlement of carved trees and haunted grottoes.

 

He reported that the Dothraki name for the lost people meant “those who walk in the woods.” None of the Ibbenese that Bryan of Oldtown met could say they had ever seen a woods walker, but claimed that the little people blessed a household that left offerings of leaf and stone and water overnight.

In addition to that, there are some trees in Essos that resemble the weirwoods quite a bit.  Those Shade of the Evening trees are kind of an inverse dead ringer for their sisters to the west.  So I would say yes, there was at least the tools and "DNA" to have greenseers in Essos.  I think the Essos variety could have been poisoned in the same way Asshai was poisoned. 

[Crowfood's Daughter]

16 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

I very much enjoyed the OP and the ensuing discussion!

The linking of Nagga's ribs and a weirwood built ship is most evocative.

As is this:

We know, not only we the readers but those within the saga, that ghost of Renley is a fraud/ploy.

It was ser Garlan Tyrell wearing Renley's armour.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Garlan_Tyrell

And guess who suggested the idea?

A Storm of Swords - Jaime VIII

I think the parallels with Christian miracle stories is most indicative of GRRM's ideas about religious thought.

This is something I'd like to expand upon, once GRRM brings forth the following books in the saga.

I am glad you were able to connect Petyr to this scene as that had never clicked in my swamp brain, stuff just kind of has a way of sloshing around in there.  I have A LOT to say about Petyr if I get the chance, but I have to set it up first and the first thing I needed to do is show that the Grey king is something of a Christ-like aspect of their Drowned God.  This will help when I get to the merlings in a sense.

[Crowfood's Daughter]

5 hours ago, LmL said:

Sweet! Now, can I interest you in this fine bridge I have for sale? Your weirwood boat will look simply stunning as it sails beneath. You can't go wrong!

Yes, you know I agree about Dayne blood being linked to the GEotD and therefore being important. I mean, just taking the broad view, George retconned two bloodlines into Daenerys after AGOT - the Blackwoods and Daynes. Those are only like two of the most mysterious / magical houses in the story, so you think it's a coincidence? I doubt it. My hunch is that Mel is Bloodraven's daughter, and therefore part Blackwood, and the Starks got 2 infusions of Blackwood in fairly recent times, and Dany is as much as "half Blackwood," though I know genetics doesn't work quite like that. I think Jon actually has Blackwood great-grandmothers on both sides if I am not mistaken, though perhaps someone can correct me if that's slightly off. 

I can only assume that if one or both of these bloodlines is important in a magical sense, George will give us more clues that this is the case in the final books. 

The other House I think we will be learning more about is the Hightowers, the other most mysterious and magical house we don't know much about in the books. 

Yes, that's kind of my take too. It's close enough to work for fantasy, in the way that the general idea of a cometary winter works as a basis for his LN / moon meteor without calculating how large a meteor would turn out the lights but not kill all living things (somewhere between 2 - 5 cubic miles of meteor, depending on the landing site, fwiw). And obviously type idea of a comet that "blows up" any kind of moon is stretching physics pretty far. I think it's fine for a fantasy written by a guy who likes to write sci-fi about people living on Venus in the classic 60's style. 

Hey LmL remember our conversations about the Frozen Shore and the Walrus men living there being kind of analogous to the Iron Islands and the Ironborn?  What do you make of this......

“The black wool cloak of a Sworn Brother of the Night’s Watch,” said the King-beyond-the-Wall. “One day on a ranging we brought down a fine big elk. We were skinning it when the smell of blood drew a shadow-cat out of its lair. I drove it off, but not before it shredded my cloak to ribbons. Do you see? Here, here, and here?” He chuckled. “It shredded my arm and back as well, and I bled worse than the elk. My brothers feared I might die before they got me back to Maester Mullin at the Shadow Tower, so they carried me to a wildling village where we knew an old wisewoman did some healing. She was dead, as it happened, but her daughter saw to me. Cleaned my wounds, sewed me up, and fed me porridge and potions until I was strong enough to ride again. And she sewed up the rents in my cloak as well, with some scarlet silk from Asshai that her grandmother had pulled from the wreck of a cog washed up on the Frozen Shore. It was the greatest treasure she had, and her gift to me.” 

Do you see a shipwreck from Asshai landing on the Frozen Shore and the colors mingling to make dragon people colors??  Also notice a man being restore to health after bringing down an elk? 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

1 hour ago, Crowfood's Daughter said:

I also think there is a good possibility there was something like greenseers in Essos.I am not sure about Asshai, but I do know there is a fabled people that sound a heck of a lot like the COTF

In addition to that, there are some trees in Essos that resemble the weirwoods quite a bit.  Those Shade of the Evening trees are kind of an inverse dead ringer for their sisters to the west.  So I would say yes, there was at least the tools and "DNA" to have greenseers in Essos.  I think the Essos variety could have been poisoned in the same way Asshai was poisoned. 

If you look at the map of the "known world", there are 3 distinct areas of dark green forest: northern Westeros, north of the Dothraki sea, and north of the Grey Waste. These forests seems to be the asoiaf equivalent of the boreal forests Earth. But if you look at Earth, the boreal forest is extremely large and basically split into 2 long, continuous halves, mostly contained within Canada and Russia. This makes me think that in an earlier climate era of Planetos, the sea level may have been much lower, and the 3 separate areas of boreal-type forest may have all been part of one big continuous forest in which the COTF first evolved from humans. And this would nicely explain why there are seemingly COTF in both Westeros and Essos. I don't think the COTF did a mass migration from Essos to Westeros like the FM, traveling through plains and desert areas to get there. You already mentioned the Ifequevron, but the city of K'dath also sounds like a potential COTF "city".

Of the lands that lie beyond the Five Forts, we know even less. Legends and lies and traveler's tales are all that ever reach us of these far places. We hear of cities where the men soar like eagles on leathern wings, of towns made of bones, of a race of bloodless men who dwell between the deep valley called the Dry Deep and the mountains. Whispers reach us of the Grey Waste and its cannibal sands, and of the Shrykes who live there, half-human creatures with greenscaled skin and venomous bites. Are these truly lizard-men, or (more likely) men clad in the skins of lizards? Or are they no more than fables, the grumkins and snarks of the eastern deserts? And even the Shrykes supposedly live in terror of K'dath in the Grey Waste, a city said to be older than time, where unspeakable rites are performed to slake the hunger of mad gods. Does such a city truly exist? If so, what is its nature?

Sounds to me like some greenseers are chillin' there, accepting blood sacrifices like the weirnet in Westeros.

As for the shade of the evening, I think that the vision Dany saw of an audience chamber with the Undying was just a fake vision, and the real Undying are actually hooked up to the trees just like BR is hooked into the weirnet. And thus, I think shade of the evening is basically greenseer blood (if we consider the Undying greenseers), just like I think all weirwood sap is greenseer blood. And when Bran and Dany had their parallel drug trips via weirwood paste and SotE, they were both drinking greenseer blood. Why do the Undying live in a windowless house in the middle of a grove of creepy trees? Why do they never leave?

And I am guessing that, rather than some sort of poisoning accounting for the difference in color, the Undying were simply originally created utilizing a different species of tree and/or person from the weirwood/COTF combo. And instead of being underground in caves like BR and the other folks in the weirnet, the Undying have simply built their own dark cave above ground for protection and darkness, and the trees grow all around it. I recently posted a topic on the subject here

[LmL]

6 hours ago, Crowfood's Daughter said:

Maybe a woman with "cat's eyes" and claws might be mistaken for a tiger woman, or a catwoman?  You know the BSE took a tiger woman to wife...just a thought.

Yes, Aziz and I discussed this at length in our Great Empire of the Dawn podcasts. It makes a lot of sense, I'm a fan of the idea. 

[Prof. Cecily]

4 hours ago, Crowfood's Daughter said:

I am glad you were able to connect Petyr to this scene as that had never clicked in my swamp brain, stuff just kind of has a way of sloshing around in there.  I have A LOT to say about Petyr if I get the chance, but I have to set it up first and the first thing I needed to do is show that the Grey king is something of a Christ-like aspect of their Drowned God.  This will help when I get to the merlings in a sense.

The connection is in Petyr helping stage a faked resurrection.

I connect the faked resurrection of Renly with the faked resurrection of of other myth cycles(edited to add: in our own world), especially considering the author's views on religions.

[LmL]

21 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

I very much enjoyed the OP and the ensuing discussion!

The linking of Nagga's ribs and a weirwood built ship is most evocative.

As is this:

We know, not only we the readers but those within the saga, that ghost of Renley is a fraud/ploy.

It was ser Garlan Tyrell wearing Renley's armour.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Garlan_Tyrell

And guess who suggested the idea?

A Storm of Swords - Jaime VIII

I think the parallels with Christian miracle stories is most indicative of GRRM's ideas about religious thought.

This is something I'd like to expand upon, once GRRM brings forth the following books in the saga.

The thing I noticed is that Garlan from the Reach is a Garth figure, thus making resurrected Renly even more horned lord than he was in life. Renly marrying a Tyrell and blending the Tyrell colors into his stag sigil is the same idea.