If Rhegar left a will??

[Stormking902]

Lets say Rhegar left a will declaring Jon Snow who is still a bastard his son and heir can a bastard son inherit before a true born aunt or uncle (Danny) or would she come first? Also lets say Rhegar also legitimises Jon with the same stroke of pen can Rhegar do this since he was technically never king or no?? 

[Lord Varys]

Since Rhaegar was never a king he sure as hell had no right to leave the kingdom to any of his heirs. And he had no right to legitimize a bastard, either. Only kings can do that.

[Stormking902]

25 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Since Rhaegar was never a king he sure as hell had no right to leave the kingdom to any of his heirs. And he had no right to legitimize a bastard, either. Only kings can do that.

Yes but a bastard of a lord can still inherit lands and some times even titles from there lord father which at least Dragonstone is technically Rhegars since Rhegar is Aerys heir. Rhegar is an unusual case since he is the kings true born heir so when Rhegar and Aerys both die Rhegars heir should be king no?? Think of history someone has to inherit the lands of their house its not like Rhegars heir has no rights to the kingdom becaue he obviously does. 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Stormking902 said:

Yes but a bastard of a lord can still inherit lands and some times even titles from there lord father which at least Dragonstone is technically Rhegars since Rhegar is Aerys heir. Rhegar is an unusual case since he is the kings true born heir so when Rhegar and Aerys both die Rhegars heir should be king no?? Think of history someone has to inherit the lands of their house its not like Rhegars heir has no rights to the kingdom becaue he obviously does. 

Dragonstone is the seat of the Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne. It is not an independent lordship. It is the king's to give and withhold, as he sees fit. For instance, when Prince Aemon, the eldest son and heir of Jaehaerys I, died, his royal father did give Dragonstone to his second son, Baelon, not to his granddaughter by Aemon, Rhaenys. 

It actually seems Aerys II gave Dragonstone to Prince Viserys after Rhaegar's death. We know he made him his new heir, and he did send him to Dragonstone. That strongly suggests that Viserys was Prince of Dragonstone when his royal father died.

[zandru]

Apparently, a lord cannot name his own heir in Westeros. This seems weird to me, but there you have it. It takes the King on the Iron Throne to bless (as it were) any declaration of who one's successor will be. anywhere in the kingdoms ruled by the KIT. (Note: I'll also accept Robb, King of the North, as being able to name - and disinherit - by his own decree. Because I'm a Stark lover - so there!)

Rhaegar, as far as we know, never ran anything like that by Aerys. He never declared himself king - at that point, way back in "Robert's" Rebellion, NOBODY declared themselves a competing king. And Rhaegar was noted for his reliance on the rule of law - he'd wanted to convene a Council of Lords to work out what to do about Aerys's madness.

So any advantage that Jon (Targaryon) Snow might get from his birth is purely in terms of how people feel about it, not anything legal. But remember, Robert Baratheon had nothing going for HIM becoming King, outside of conquest. A lot of these customs, and documentation, and geneology, are essentially fig leaves for decisions made with cold steel. Or dragonfire.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

45 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Dragonstone is the seat of the Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne. It is not an independent lordship. It is the king's to give and withhold, as he sees fit. For instance, when Prince Aemon, the eldest son and heir of Jaehaerys I, died, his royal father did give Dragonstone to his second son, Baelon, not to his granddaughter by Aemon, Rhaenys. 

It actually seems Aerys II gave Dragonstone to Prince Viserys after Rhaegar's death. We know he made him his new heir, and he did send him to Dragonstone. That strongly suggests that Viserys was Prince of Dragonstone when his royal father died.

Wasn't Viserys also named King by the Targaryen loyalist after news of Aerys death reached Dragonstone and Rhaella crowned him?  So he went from Prince of Dragonstone to King and then Daenerys became the Princess of Dragonstone. 

[The Commentator]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Since Rhaegar was never a king he sure as hell had no right to leave the kingdom to any of his heirs. And he had no right to legitimize a bastard, either. Only kings can do that.

Rhaegar was never a king.  Rhaegar never had king status.  Rhaegar had no right to Will the realm to anyone.  Rhaegar had no right to legitimize a bastard.  The realm was not Rhaegar's to give.  The realm belonged to King Aerys II.  

[The Commentator]

1 hour ago, zandru said:

Apparently, a lord cannot name his own heir in Westeros. This seems weird to me, but there you have it. It takes the King on the Iron Throne to bless (as it were) any declaration of who one's successor will be. anywhere in the kingdoms ruled by the KIT. (Note: I'll also accept Robb, King of the North, as being able to name - and disinherit - by his own decree. Because I'm a Stark lover - so there!)

Rhaegar, as far as we know, never ran anything like that by Aerys. He never declared himself king - at that point, way back in "Robert's" Rebellion, NOBODY declared themselves a competing king. And Rhaegar was noted for his reliance on the rule of law - he'd wanted to convene a Council of Lords to work out what to do about Aerys's madness.

So any advantage that Jon (Targaryon) Snow might get from his birth is purely in terms of how people feel about it, not anything legal. But remember, Robert Baratheon had nothing going for HIM becoming King, outside of conquest. A lot of these customs, and documentation, and geneology, are essentially fig leaves for decisions made with cold steel. Or dragonfire.

Robert justified his right to plant his ample rear on the throne because he had Targaryen blood.  It is evident then that people recognize the right of the Targaryens to rule over them.  

[zandru]

23 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Robert justified his right to plant his ample rear on the throne because he had Targaryen blood.  It is evident then that people recognize the right of the Targaryens to rule over them.  

I still think Robert's Targaryon justification was a fig leaf for what he won by conquest. And I agree - the record of the Baratheons, Lannister-"Baratheons" and Lannisters on the Iron Throne is a good argument for a return to Targaryon rule. Even if "mad." (Heck, Joffrey seemed to be as bad as Aerys at his worst, and him just a little kid.)

[Stormking902]

What most of you are forgetting is Rhegar was the king all of Westeros wanted not Viserys or Danny so if a son of the beloved prince Rhegar shows up he will be welcomed far more then any other claimant. 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

To my son Aegon I leave Dragonstone and the hand of my daughter Rhaenys . And to my bastard son Jon I leave my favorite harp and a half burned book from Summerhal .

[LyrnaSnowBunnyAvenger]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Since Rhaegar was never a king he sure as hell had no right to leave the kingdom to any of his heirs. And he had no right to legitimize a bastard, either. Only kings can do that.

I think I'm probably not reading your comment correctly, but Roose legitimized Ramsey and he certainly was no king.  I would think that Rhaegar would have the right to legitimize Jon, but not necessarily put him in the line of succession.  Obviously a moot point though since he didn't.

[El Guapo]

21 minutes ago, LyrnaSnowBunnyAvenger said:

I think I'm probably not reading your comment correctly, but Roose legitimized Ramsey and he certainly was no king.  I would think that Rhaegar would have the right to legitimize Jon, but not necessarily put him in the line of succession.  Obviously a moot point though since he didn't.

Ramsey was legitimized by King Tommen.

[A Bastard Brother]

Did i miss something? If Rhaegar leaves a will, who is to say Jon is a bastard at all? Jon then becomes an heir after Dany as a Grandchild of the Mad King. Everyone jumped on him being a bastard, and while it is huge to his character there is no reason to think that something that proves parentage wouldnt prove legitimacy as well. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Since Rhaegar was never a king he sure as hell had no right to leave the kingdom to any of his heirs. And he had no right to legitimize a bastard, either. Only kings can do that.

I dont think this is accurate...

Well, the first part I agree with, Rhaegar wasn't king so he can't name someone heir to the throne.

But it isn't at all clear that only a king can legitimize a bastard. We have so few examples, most from Aegon (blackfyre, bittersteel, bloodraven, seastar, etc.). However, while this gives precedent that a kin has the power to legitimize someone, it doesn't mean the king is required.

For instance it seems clear a Lord can name his own heir. It follows that they could legitimize their own bastards I feel they so choose. This is more realistic as well. Though of course laws and traditions vary wildly.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

1 minute ago, A Bastard Brother said:

Did i miss something? If Rhaegar leaves a will, who is to say Jon is a bastard at all? Jon then becomes an heir after Dany as a Grandchild of the Mad King. Everyone jumped on him being a bastard, and while it is huge to his character there is no reason to think that something that proves parentage wouldnt prove legitimacy as well. 

The eldest child of the eldest child comes before any younger siblings... usually

Also, Men come before women... usually

It's unclear if Rheagar had the right to legitimize Jon, but either way if he left documentation, like a will, to that effect it would give Jon a strong case.

[A Bastard Brother]

5 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

The eldest child of the eldest child comes before any younger siblings... usually

Also, Men come before women... usually

It's unclear if Rheagar had the right to legitimize Jon, but either way if he left documentation, like a will, to that effect it would give Jon a strong case.

Does the eldest child of the eldest work if the child is already dead? With Rhaegar dead before the Mad King I thought his line was skipped. If not then that is my mistake. With my other point I was just getting at Jon may not be a bastard at all. Anything showing a marriage legitimizes that so Rhaegar doesnt have to do anything else. Jon would be trueborn at that point. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

12 minutes ago, A Bastard Brother said:

Does the eldest child of the eldest work if the child is already dead? With Rhaegar dead before the Mad King I thought his line was skipped. If not then that is my mistake. With my other point I was just getting at Jon may not be a bastard at all. Anything showing a marriage legitimizes that so Rhaegar doesnt have to do anything else. Jon would be trueborn at that point. 

These things are never black and white... really what we are doing is comparing claims... at the end of the day it's "to the victor go the spoils".

But usually the eldest son of the eldest son would come before the second son even if the first son died before becoming king. My understanding of classic primogeniture anyway

-cheers

[Clegane'sPup]

10 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

Lets say Rhegar left a will declaring Jon Snow who is still a bastard his son and heir can a bastard son inherit before a true born aunt or uncle (Danny) or would she come first? Also lets say Rhegar also legitimises Jon with the same stroke of pen can Rhegar do this since he was technically never king or no?? 

In Westeros the seat of power is who sits their ass on the Iron Throne in KL. The way I see it is that the King of Westeros (the Seven Kingdoms) is the one who makes the decrees.  The parent of a bastard can acknowledge the bastard born child but the name does not change without the blessing of the Throne.

A bit of paper disappears as easily as it appears. Robert and Eddard’s exchange is below.
 

Quote

 

Game of Thrones - Eddard XIII     Robert managed a weak red smile. "At the least, they will say … this last thing … this I did right. You won't fail me. You'll rule now. You'll hate it, worse than I did … but you'll do well. Are you done with the scribbling?"

"Yes, Your Grace." Ned offered Robert the paper. The king scrawled his signature blindly, leaving a smear of blood across the letter. "The seal should be witnessed."    "Serve the boar at my funeral feast," Robert rasped. "Apple in its mouth, skin seared crisp. Eat the bastard. Don't care if you choke on him. Promise me, Ned."

 

Eddard writes to Stannis. Stannis has withdrawn from KL to Dragonstone.
 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XIII    Ned took out the king's last letter. A roll of crisp white parchment sealed with golden wax, a few short words and a smear of blood. How small the difference between victory and defeat, between life and death.

He drew out a fresh sheet of paper and dipped his quill in the inkpot. To His Grace, Stannis of the House Baratheon, he wrote. By the time you receive this letter, your brother Robert, our King these past fifteen years, will be dead. He was savaged by a boar whilst hunting in the kingswood …

 

Eddard has Robert’s will. He had witnesses.
 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XIV   So much for Renly and his hundred swords. Ned did not like the smell of that, but there was nothing to be done for it. He drew out Robert's last letter. "The king called me to his side last night and commanded me to record his final words. Lord Renly and Grand Maester Pycelle stood witness as Robert sealed the letter, to be opened by the council after his death. Ser Barristan, if you would be so kind?"

The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard examined the paper. "King Robert's seal, and unbroken." He opened the letter and read. "Lord Eddard Stark is herein named Protector of the Realm, to rule as regent until the heir comes of age."

 

Eddard produced Robert’s last wishes as witnessed by Renly, Pycelle and Barristan. Cersei tore the statement to shreds. Poof! All gone.

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard XIV    Ned produced Robert's letter. "Lord Varys, be so kind as to show this to my lady of Lannister."   The eunuch carried the letter to Cersei. The queen glanced at the words. "Protector of the Realm," she read. "Is this meant to be your shield, my lord? A piece of paper?" She ripped the letter in half, ripped the halves in quarters, and let the pieces flutter to the floor.    "Those were the king's words," Ser Barristan said, shocked.

That is how easy it is in Westeros to discredit a person. If Rhaegar had a will, if Robb had a will, and if someone wants to destroy it poof it is gone.

Like my brother told me, doesn’t really matter what mom said. Documents get destroyed. Documents get misplaced. Poof.  I guess that is one of the reasons there is an expensive legal system to deal with. Except Westeros doesn’t have lawyers or courts.

[zandru]

11 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

That is how easy it is in Westeros to discredit a person. If Rhaegar had a will, if Robb had a will, and if someone wants to destroy it poof it is gone.

Well, King Robb immediately sent a copy of HIS will to Oldtown. It names Jon Snow as the next Lord of Winterfell, and specifically disinherits Sansa (and thus, the Lannisters). By some odd chance, Jon Snow has sent Samwell Tarly to Oldtown...