Lysa Arryn, Catelyn Stark, Olenna Tyrell - Cersei Lannister?

[WalkinDude]

So in the story, the women are normally addressed by their married names.  Lady Stark, instead of Lady Tully.  Or Olenna Tyrell instead of Olenna Redwyne.  Yet with Cersei, she is never called Cersei Baratheon.  Granted, her children take the "Baratheon" Surname, but Cersei is still very much considered a Lannister.  Why would the Queen, whom derives all of her power and authority form her husband, be allowed to openly embrace her maiden name when the standard in Westeros is quite clearly to adopt the name of one's husband?

[DarkBastard]

It is also noted in the texts that Prince Joffrey bears a sigil displaying both houses, Baratheon and Lannister. I believe it is presented in that way to show the true nature of the Lannisters. They are ruthlessly protective of their house and position, second to no other, including the Crown Stag.  Lord Tywin has brought his children up this way, believing that House Lannister is the only thing that matters.  The realm itself can be buggered, so long as their house stands upon the rubble. 

We see that theme repeated over and again throughout the books and television production.  As to why King Robert allowed this to occur should be curious to the reader.  When added to the promise of Warden-ship over the Vale to Jamie, it is clear that something drove the King's acceptance.  He didn't seem overly concerned with counting copper, so the deep debt to Casterly Rock seems unlikely as cause.  

It could be explained simply as a weariness of arguing with Cersei (who wouldn't tire of that after so many years).  He rarely attended the tedium of the Small Council.  He chose to drink and whore himself into an early grave...which indicates a degree of apathy to such things.  

A more complex explanation may exist, but I haven't identified a clue to it so far.  We'll see as the story goes on through conclusion.

[fire&blood]

I read it somewhere that you can't marry into the royal family name, you have to be born into it to use the surname. That is why it was Princess Ellia Martell and not Ellia Targaryen. Other examples I can think of is Alicent Hightower. Maegor the Cruel was married to Jeyne Westerling not Jeyne Targaryen.

[John Suburbs]

1 hour ago, fire&blood said:

I read it somewhere that you can't marry into the royal family name, you have to be born into it to use the surname. That is why it was Princess Ellia Martell and not Ellia Targaryen. Other examples I can think of is Alicent Hightower. Maegor the Cruel was married to Jeyne Westerling not Jeyne Targaryen.

This seems to be the case. Every non-Targaryen queen seems to have retained their maiden name.

[Tianzi]

I would like to add that Lysa is never referred to as a Baelish... Though maybe it's because we at that point see her only through Sansa's eyes, who thinks of her as 'aunt Lysa'.

2 hours ago, fire&blood said:

I read it somewhere that you can't marry into the royal family name, you have to be born into it to use the surname. That is why it was Princess Ellia Martell and not Ellia Targaryen. Other examples I can think of is Alicent Hightower. Maegor the Cruel was married to Jeyne Westerling not Jeyne Targaryen.

Yes, but if Renly wasn't the king, then the widowed Marg should be considered a Baratheon, not a Tyrell.

I'd say that laws aside, it just depends on:

a. who is talking (for example Cersei thinks 'Catelyn Tully' not 'Catelyn Stark')

b. what is important about the lady in question in the speaker's eyes. If she is just an addiction to his husband, then she's referred to by his name. If she is the vessel to a powerful House, then everyone consider her Margaery TYRELL, Cersei LANNISTER, etc. Even Sansa is referred to as a Stark after her marriage (except by the ever so particular Stannis), because her being the last Stark daughter trumps the importance of her being married to a (expandable in the eyes of most) Lannister chap, especially after they're both suspected of murdering Joffrey, and the Lannisters definitely don't think of her as of a family member. Cat and Lysa come from a Great House, but Cat definitely identifies herself with her husband's interests, and Lysa's position is mostly Lord Arryn's mother (even after her second marriage). As for Cersei, her husband would be the first to consider her 'a Lannister woman', so it's no wonder that everybody else does so.

Btw, how does that play out in Dorne, where women can be the heads of their houses?

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

I do think there is an element of choice here for most highborn women.  @The Dragon Demands I believe addressed this in one of his videos.  Catelyn has the option of calling herself either a Tully or a Stark.  Both are perfectly normal.  Taking your husbands name is not necessarily automatic.  If the woman has a slightly more prestigious family name, she may opt to keep hers.  If we're talking about a marriage between two paramount houses, the wife could go either way.  In these feudal marriages, the wife's family ties are still recognized and valued.  It's why Catelyn can invoke her Tully name to call for her father's bannermen to arrest Tyrion on her behalf.  No one said, "oh well you're a Stark now, so no."  There are special cases too of children inheriting the wife's name, like the Mormont women.  Obviously, they aren't married (okay, "bear" husbands and such), but their children are all Mormonts and considered legitimate.  It's all out of necessity to keep the Mormont name going.  House Mormont is really small and not that significant for anyone to make a fuss about it anyway.  All current Starks descend from a maternal line.  I don't think we've seen it yet but it may be possible under special circumstances for a husband to take the wife's name.     

[The Dragon Demands]

Well it was cited from something GRRM said in So Spake Martin:  taking your husband's surname isn't automatic or by law, it's generally by preference - often by choosing the more prestigious name.  If a Frey girl marries a Tyrell, she'll use "Tyrell".  If a Tyrell girl marries a Frey, she'll keep "Tyrell".  Or a Lannister girl marrying down to a Frey, i.e. Gemma Lannister.  If they're of roughly co-equal rank it varies by personal choice - i.e. Catelyn loves Ned so she stresses her bond with him by taking his surname, though they're both from Great Houses.  Of course, among the eight or so non-royal Great Houses, there's still some jockeying for position:  the Tullys and Tyrells were never kings, but the Starks/Lannisters/Martells used to rule their regions.  I think Tully is a bit less prestigious than Stark or Arryn, so Lysa went with that.  But it's just personal preference.

Point is it was never "a law". 

[Wall Flower]

2 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Well it was cited from something GRRM said in So Spake Martin:  taking your husband's surname isn't automatic or by law, it's generally by preference - often by choosing the more prestigious name.  If a Frey girl marries a Tyrell, she'll use "Tyrell".  If a Tyrell girl marries a Frey, she'll keep "Tyrell".  Or a Lannister girl marrying down to a Frey, i.e. Gemma Lannister.  If they're of roughly co-equal rank it varies by personal choice - i.e. Catelyn loves Ned so she stresses her bond with him by taking his surname, though they're both from Great Houses.  Of course, among the eight or so non-royal Great Houses, there's still some jockeying for position:  the Tullys and Tyrells were never kings, but the Starks/Lannisters/Martells used to rule their regions.  I think Tully is a bit less prestigious than Stark or Arryn, so Lysa went with that.  But it's just personal preference.

Point is it was never "a law". 

Cat and Lysa are often called by the titles Lady Stark and Lady Arryn, as wives of those respective lords paramount, so it might be easier for people to think of them as Catelyn Stark and Lysa Arryn. If Cersei had been married to a mere lord, paramount or not, I think she would still have insisted on Cersei Lannister.

 

[Daena the Defiant]

On 6/1/2017 at 9:43 AM, WalkinDude said:

So in the story, the women are normally addressed by their married names.  Lady Stark, instead of Lady Tully.  Or Olenna Tyrell instead of Olenna Redwyne.  Yet with Cersei, she is never called Cersei Baratheon.  Granted, her children take the "Baratheon" Surname, but Cersei is still very much considered a Lannister.  Why would the Queen, whom derives all of her power and authority form her husband, be allowed to openly embrace her maiden name when the standard in Westeros is quite clearly to adopt the name of one's husband?

Queens throughout history (queens consort, anyway) are typically referred to by the original name. If I told you about Katherine Tudor, Jane Tudor, Jane Tudor, Anne Tudor, Catherine Tudor and Catherine Tudor, who would you think I was referring to? They are known better to history as Katherine of Aragon, Anne Boleyn, Jane Seymour, Anne of Cleves, Catherine Howard and Catherine Parr.