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Was Robb lying to Edmure?


Agent 326

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Back in ASOS I couldn't help but feel as though Robb was shaming Edmure into marrying Roslin Frey by telling him that if you didn't attack then Tywin would've come west and then we would kill him and destroy his army, so that was Stannis wins during the Battle of Blackwater Bay. I see too many holes here to think that this was actually the case. First thing, what about Roose Bolton and his host, where they supposed to do anything, and what if they stopped Tywin, then what? Second, Robb leaves at about the time that Catelyn leaves, and Renly was still alive. Third Robb was conspiring with Stannis, wait what? Because otherwise how would Robb no that Stannis was attacking. Fourth what if Tywin goes back to King's Landing. Fifth, what about the Tyrells, what if they smash Stannis's host, they still likely would've won. Sixth, Robb had his forces spread out everywhere, so what if Tywin does come and is able to wipe them out. Seventh, Robb didn't tell Edmure why he said to hold Riverrun, why not tell him why. Seriously what would Edmure gain from betraying you, and he is your most powerful bannerman, because he is the lord paramount of all the Riverlands, and also he is your uncle and you saved his ass at the Battle of Whispering Wood. Eighth, Robb went west to take out Stafford Lannister's host, he likely is staying their for loot and plunder, why not, the Riverlands and the North aren't producing much food and the Westernlands has lots of gold so you can trade with the Free Cities, Hire Sellswords, etc;. Ninth, Robb says that the Blackfish's scouts how haven't been in the Westernlands for a little over a month and they have found a place that Tywin hasn't in 15 years, and Tywin would be foolish enough to go their. Tenth, if Tywin did come west it would've been disastrous for Robb, because he is wounded at the Crag, while his host is scattered and remember the Crag was easy to take. Eleventh, Robb is a fifteen year old (who has been raised to put honor above all else) at this point in the story which explains the many holes of the lie.

What are your thoughts on this theory?

Don't be mistaken though Robb is my favorite character that has ever been in ASOIAF but still, not one of his best moments. Also this is the kind of cruel irony that George R.R Martin loves, kind of like Theon wanting to check under Crowfoods eye patch to make sure that it is just an empty eye socket, when in truth he would be completely horrified when he finds and obsidian eye staring back at him. The one time Robb lies, it gets him what he wants, and it gets him killed.

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Seems likely.  There is a reason why Robb singled out Edmure and only blamed him in private while not mentioning his displeasure to Mallister, Bracken, Blackwood, Roose and all the others who went along with Edmure's plan. The only person to get chastised was the one person he needed to marry a Frey. 

The people at Riverrun seem to think that it was Edmure's job to guard Robb's rear.

"Would that it were. My brother commands in Riverrun?"
"Yes, my lady. His Grace left Ser Edmure to hold Riverrun and guard his rear."
Gods grant him the strength to do so, Catelyn thought. And the wisdom as well. 
 
And the plan that Theon mentions that Tywin is cut off from the West
 
"By now Robb is at the Golden Tooth," Theon said. "Once it falls, he'll be through the hills in a day. Lord Tywin's host is at Harrenhal, cut off from the west. 
 
Which makes it sound that the plan was to delay Tywin from entering so Robb and Theon would have time to take the West's capital and city. 
 
Now it is possible that Robb did have some other kind of plan, but what seems clear is that none of his subordinates understood what he intended. That is on him rather than them. 
 
 
 

 

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After the Green Fork, Roose reformed his army at the mouth of the causeway, which is probably a little south of the Twins. So he would be in no position to confront Tywin before, during or after his time at Harrenhal. It's not clear if this was on direct orders from Robb or by Roose's own initiative, but he retakes Harrenhal after Tywin has departed with his army.

As for Edmund's blunder, I lay that squarely at Robb's feet. Even if Edmund's orders were to simply hold Riverrun, giving a top officer an order without context is the fault of the commander, not the subordinate. A savvy military leader knows that sometimes the best defense is a good offense, so bloodying Tywin at the Stone Mill rather than wait for him to lay siege to Riverrun is perfectly sound military thinking. If Edmund had been included in the war councils -- which apparently, for some stupid reason he was not -- he would have had a better understanding of the strategy and would have acted accordingly.

Yes, Renly was still alive when Robb left Riverrun, but eventually either Stannis or Renly would attack King's Landing, so Tywin would had to have kept that in mind as he left Harrenhal. The fact that he went west to Riverrun rather than force-march south to King's Landing suggests he had already cut a deal with the Tyrell's and was planning to sweep down the Blackwater if need be -- something that the Blackfish, at least, should have suspected.

Robb's forces were in pretty good order after Oxcross, and he certainly would have had time to gather them if Tywin had continued west. But that probably would not have been necessary considering the hilly, wooded terrain they were in probably would have favored light, rapid assault-and-retreat rather than an all-out, toe-to-toe battle with a superior force and a more experienced commander like Tywin.

In the end, my guess is that they used the battle at the Stone Mill as leverage to get Edmund to agree to marrying a Frey, which, of course, was intended to make amends for Robb's blunder -- the biggest in the entire story. Although to be fair to Robb, he was very likely drugged with a love potion to get him to fall for Jeyne -- so ultimately, this was all part of Tywin's machination. 

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I thinking lying is wrong word. I believe Robb when he said he had plans. Robb left before Renly died but he wasn't in some remote location where he could not receive messages. He was more than likely up to date with the news of the war. Thinking Stannis would attack KL is not a big jump, Cersei & Tyrion knew he would attack too. He made the guess Tywin would come west bc he figured Tywin wouldn't allow his own lands to be savaged the RL were. The Tyrells were the wildcard. No one knew what they were going to do until they made the deal with Tywin, which was able to happen bc Tywin could not get past stone mill. 

IMO it's more accurate to say at most he was unduly harsh on Edmure bc he needed to  guilt Edmure into marrying a Frey to make amends for his own mistake, which was bigger than Edmure's. However, I still haven't made up my mind about whether I'm on Edmure's side in this. A commander doesn't have to give everyone the plan. Edmure was given orders & he didn't follow them. Not knowing the full plan doesn't excuse that to me. I think Edmure's best excuse is that "hold Riverrun" is open to interpretation. But even that is suspect when you consider Edmure's motives. Seems to me he didn't do it bc he thought he was "holding Riverrun" he did it because he want to gain some glory the way Robb was especially since he had a bad showing the first time around with getting captured & having to be rescued by his young nephew. 

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That was my take also. Robb's story doesn't hold water.

“Why . . . there were other castles . . . gold, cattle . . .”

“You think we stayed for plunder?” Robb was incredulous.

Yet, earlier, here's an account of Robb's campaign:

The Young Wolf was paying the Lannisters back in kind for the devastation they’d inflicted on the riverlands. Lords Karstark and Glover were raiding along the coast, Lady Mormont had captured thousands of cattle and was driving them back toward Riverrun, while the Greatjon had seized the gold mines at Castamere, Nunn’s Deep, and the Pendric Hills.

Surely sounds like plunder to me.

Another point: here's what Edmure's orders were originally:

“Yes, my lady. His Grace left Ser Edmure to hold Riverrun and guard his rear.”

Seems like preventing Tywin, with his superior numbers and home turf advantage, from engaging Robb exactly meets the definition of "guarding his rear".

I love the Young Wolf, but he was outright bullshitting his uncle. Sorry, Robb.

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Yup, I agree with everyone else that Robb was full of shit here. The "guard his rear is very straigt-forward"(and if that command was no longer actual, then Robb should have informed Edmure about it. A command is active UNTIL the superiour officer informs otherwise).

Robb, as pointed out above, removes the possibilty for any riverlord to support Edmure in this and have this "you fucked up" speech in private. And Edmure is not good at standing up for himself, nor can he really blame the person who he took as his king. The "You don´t know everything that was on stake" is a hard argument to defeat (and you can certainly ask yourself: "then shouldn´t I have been GIVEN this crucial information") but it also points toward low intelligence. After all, there is nothing wrong with drawing conclusions of the information you have available. Arguing that you are not "allowed" to do so is both unrealistic as well as insulting. Allowed according to who? Who are you to judge on what information that is sufficient to draw a conclusion? And what logical standard can you produce for the future that will consistantly say when to draw a conclusion and when to not.

I also want to point out that Edmure DID held Riverrun (Hold riverrun doesn´t necessary mean "defend it in a siege" but means "Make sure our enemies doesn´t take Riverrun, how doesn´t matter"), and that if Robb wants to forbid him from doing other stuff then he need to state that. Robb gave Edmure a prime directive (which Edmure succeded) but gave no orders about other things at all. So, as long as Edmure succeds in this prime directive, he can do what the hell he wants apart from that. After all, to be accused of not following orders, you have to actually SHOW an order that was not followed. Sure, Edmure doesn´t have to guard his lands against Tywin nor order Roose to take Harrenhal, but he chose to do so since there were no orders who forbid him. After all (again), Riverrun was held. Mission accomplished. Anyone who think Edmure didn´t do as he was told is delusional.

Edmure is Lord Paramount of the Riverlands and is in charge of most of Robb's men, so he has a responsibility to make decisions based on the best known information at the time. And that information is that he was to protect Robb, make sure Riverrun never was taken and apart from that do whatever the hell he wanted to. He was never informed about the importance of holding Tywin from King´s landing and therefore, since that information was above his paygrade, he doesn´t need to figure that out himself because he wasn´t supposed to know. You never have to take into considerance things that are not told to you, instead your superiuors are the ones to decide if this information is something that they should shere or not, making it their fault if you act according to the task given but fail to take into considerance those things you shouldn´t know about from the first place.

I also think those on this fandom that argue against this are biased, hypocritical and doesn´t even logically know what "disobeying a command" MEANS. First, they try to go full blame-mode "Edmure did wrong!!! He didn´t do as he was told". And then when far, far wiser heads actually point out that he did actually do what he was told and that Edmure worked within his orders, then suddenly they argue "He should have thought for himself". Hypocritical, biased idiots...

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19 hours ago, Agent 326 said:

First thing, what about Roose Bolton and his host, where they supposed to do anything, and what if they stopped Tywin, then what?

No, Roose and his army were too far North at the time to do anything against Tywin. Whether on Edmure's orders or Roose's initiative they took Harrenhal once Tywin vacated, stopping him from retreating back into it, but they had no place in Robb's plans.

19 hours ago, Agent 326 said:

Second, Robb leaves at about the time that Catelyn leaves, and Renly was still alive.

As has been pointed out above, Robb wasn't completely isolated from news. He would have heard about Renly's death, though I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.

19 hours ago, Agent 326 said:

Third Robb was conspiring with Stannis, wait what? Because otherwise how would Robb no that Stannis was attacking.

Nope. It's pretty easy to work out that Stannis would attack the city once he had the Stormlords backing him. Hell most people expected him to gun straight for King's Landing, so working out that he'd move on Kings Landing after Renly's death doesn't take a genius.

19 hours ago, Agent 326 said:

Fourth what if Tywin goes back to King's Landing. Fifth, what about the Tyrells, what if they smash Stannis's host, they still likely would've won.

If Tywin simply went back to King's Landing then Robb's lost nothing. He's lost no men, he is still able to wreak havoc on enemy territory and he makes Tywin look weak to his bannermen. But it is the logical assumption that when someone's home is under threat they will move to protect it. The Tyrell's were a wild card that no one could have predicted. Not to mention that Mace Tyrell would never dare make such a move without Tywin.

19 hours ago, Agent 326 said:

Sixth, Robb had his forces spread out everywhere, so what if Tywin does come and is able to wipe them out.

Robb's force in the West is entirely cavalry and they were all raiding around the same area. The second word came of Tywin crossing the fords, they would have grouped up again before Tywin even reached the Golden Tooth.

19 hours ago, Agent 326 said:

Seventh, Robb didn't tell Edmure why he said to hold Riverrun, why not tell him why. Seriously what would Edmure gain from betraying you, and he is your most powerful bannerman, because he is the lord paramount of all the Riverlands, and also he is your uncle and you saved his ass at the Battle of Whispering Wood. Eighth, Robb went west to take out Stafford Lannister's host, he likely is staying their for loot and plunder, why not, the Riverlands and the North aren't producing much food and the Westernlands has lots of gold so you can trade with the Free Cities, Hire Sellswords, etc;

Robb didn't tell Edmure why he wanted him to hold Riverrun because of the risk such a message carried. It wasn't that he didn't trust Edmure (he left the Kingslayer under his jurisdiction after all), it was that when he first moved into the West it was to destroy Stafford Lannister's host. The plan to trap Tywin didn't spawn until later and putting the plan into a letter that would have to pass over/through the Golden Tooth would be too risky. As for number 8, I'm not quite sure what the point you're trying to make is.

19 hours ago, Agent 326 said:

Ninth, Robb says that the Blackfish's scouts how haven't been in the Westernlands for a little over a month and they have found a place that Tywin hasn't in 15 years, and Tywin would be foolish enough to go their. Tenth, if Tywin did come west it would've been disastrous for Robb, because he is wounded at the Crag, while his host is scattered and remember the Crag was easy to take.

Robb never claimed that Tywin didn't know the location, only that they would have the advantage there. Can't argue with ten, but as I recall the injury was only a minor one and wasn't part of the plan. Come to think of it, the Crag might not have happened until after Robb had already heard that Tywin wasn't coming; we aren't given a clear chronology, so taking the Crag may well have been some sort of consolation prize for the men who hadn't gotten the fight they'd wanted?

Ultimately no, I don't think Robb was lying. That said, while he is one of my favourite character's, I don't blame Edmure for the failure of the plan. He interpreted Robb's words to mean something other that what Robb intended. Robb should have been clearer, but it's a war and miscommunication happens.

Anyway, how would lying to Edmure about this benefit Robb in anyway? IIRC, the demand that Edmure marry the Frey's wasn't made until Lothar visited Riverrun for Hoster's funeral and I don't think offering a marriage to Edmure was something Robb had thought of ahead of time; when talking to his mother about winning the Frey's back he mentions Whoresbane and Crowfood and maybe some others but not Edmure. With this in mind, the only reason for Robb to lie would be pride but in that case, why would the Blackfish back him up.

As for singling out Edmure, well...yeah. It's a feudal kingdom. The Blackwoods, Vance's, Mallister's and Bracken's are sworn to follow Edmure so Robb doesn't blame them. He does, wrongly, blame Edmure, who is his direct vassal. That's how it works. If Galbart Glover misunderstood orders and messed up, he'd the one who would be blamed not the Forrester's or his other vassals. It's why at the end of the WO5K, the Riverlords aren't really punished for following the Starks and Tully's.

 

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Robb was a very flawed commander. He didn't specifiy (or lied about) his orders to Edmure, he didn't make sure that Tallhart would stay at the Twins to keep the Freys loyal, and Roose Bolton, who he didn't even trust, and with two thirds of the northern army, was basically allowed to roam the Riverlands freely without any orders after he had engaged Tywin, which he shouldn't even have done. He didn't manage to keep his army under control at all. 

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6 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

No, Roose and his army were too far North at the time to do anything against Tywin. Whether on Edmure's orders or Roose's initiative they took Harrenhal once Tywin vacated, stopping him from retreating back into it, but they had no place in Robb's plans.

As has been pointed out above, Robb wasn't completely isolated from news. He would have heard about Renly's death, though I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.

Nope. It's pretty easy to work out that Stannis would attack the city once he had the Stormlords backing him. Hell most people expected him to gun straight for King's Landing, so working out that he'd move on Kings Landing after Renly's death doesn't take a genius.

If Tywin simply went back to King's Landing then Robb's lost nothing. He's lost no men, he is still able to wreak havoc on enemy territory and he makes Tywin look weak to his bannermen. But it is the logical assumption that when someone's home is under threat they will move to protect it. The Tyrell's were a wild card that no one could have predicted. Not to mention that Mace Tyrell would never dare make such a move without Tywin.

Robb's force in the West is entirely cavalry and they were all raiding around the same area. The second word came of Tywin crossing the fords, they would have grouped up again before Tywin even reached the Golden Tooth.

Robb didn't tell Edmure why he wanted him to hold Riverrun because of the risk such a message carried. It wasn't that he didn't trust Edmure (he left the Kingslayer under his jurisdiction after all), it was that when he first moved into the West it was to destroy Stafford Lannister's host. The plan to trap Tywin didn't spawn until later and putting the plan into a letter that would have to pass over/through the Golden Tooth would be too risky. As for number 8, I'm not quite sure what the point you're trying to make is.

Robb never claimed that Tywin didn't know the location, only that they would have the advantage there. Can't argue with ten, but as I recall the injury was only a minor one and wasn't part of the plan. Come to think of it, the Crag might not have happened until after Robb had already heard that Tywin wasn't coming; we aren't given a clear chronology, so taking the Crag may well have been some sort of consolation prize for the men who hadn't gotten the fight they'd wanted?

Ultimately no, I don't think Robb was lying. That said, while he is one of my favourite character's, I don't blame Edmure for the failure of the plan. He interpreted Robb's words to mean something other that what Robb intended. Robb should have been clearer, but it's a war and miscommunication happens.

Anyway, how would lying to Edmure about this benefit Robb in anyway? IIRC, the demand that Edmure marry the Frey's wasn't made until Lothar visited Riverrun for Hoster's funeral and I don't think offering a marriage to Edmure was something Robb had thought of ahead of time; when talking to his mother about winning the Frey's back he mentions Whoresbane and Crowfood and maybe some others but not Edmure. With this in mind, the only reason for Robb to lie would be pride but in that case, why would the Blackfish back him up.

As for singling out Edmure, well...yeah. It's a feudal kingdom. The Blackwoods, Vance's, Mallister's and Bracken's are sworn to follow Edmure so Robb doesn't blame them. He does, wrongly, blame Edmure, who is his direct vassal. That's how it works. If Galbart Glover misunderstood orders and messed up, he'd the one who would be blamed not the Forrester's or his other vassals. It's why at the end of the WO5K, the Riverlords aren't really punished for following the Starks and Tully's.

 

With your counter point to number eight wouldn't Tywin know not go there as Robb would have advantage from that place. Also Stannis might not have been in Robb's best interest because this is how Stannis thinks, You are all my vassals no matter what. Also at one point Robb did come up with the idea of Edmure marrying one of Walder Frey's daughters. At the end of one of the Catelyn chapters in ASOS (one of the earlier ones) they are talking about who to get Walder Frey back on their side and Edmure (I think) suggests something and then either Catelyn or Robb suggest someone and that someone being Edmure. Also some of those other that you mentioned besides Whorebane and Crowfood, Wyman Manderly's sons where also considered.

 

Also I was rereading ADWD and I found this in Jon I, "They North rode with Robb, bled with him, died for him." Opps.

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7 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

No, Roose and his army were too far North at the time to do anything against Tywin. Whether on Edmure's orders or Roose's initiative they took Harrenhal once Tywin vacated, stopping him from retreating back into it, but they had no place in Robb's plans.

Would it not have been wise for Robb to let Roose know this?  Roose commanded a third of Robb's army and when Edmure planned to attack Tywin Roose went along with these orders. 

Robb has 6k, Edmure 11k and Roose 11k. What on earth was Robb thinking keeping the two subordinates with the vast majority of his army in the dark?

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As has been pointed out above, Robb wasn't completely isolated from news. He would have heard about Renly's death, though I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.

Would he? Cat, at Riverrun, only found out about it when Tywin was days a way. Robb on  the move would not have the same communications that the capital of the Riverlands had. It is unliely he found about Renly's death till after he took the Crag. 

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Nope. It's pretty easy to work out that Stannis would attack the city once he had the Stormlords backing him. Hell most people expected him to gun straight for King's Landing, so working out that he'd move on Kings Landing after Renly's death doesn't take a genius.

No, that it not true. GRRM (and Tyrion) states that Stannis was expected to stay at Storm's End for some time until it was captured. 

The reason Stannis did not stay at Storm's End for months on end was because he had a magical assassin to do his bidding. Are yiu suggesting the Robb expected Stannis to take Storm's End with a shadow baby?

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If Tywin simply went back to King's Landing then Robb's lost nothing. He's lost no men, he is still able to wreak havoc on enemy territory and he makes Tywin look weak to his bannermen.

Not really. Robb points out that he was not strong enough to threaten Casterly Rock or Lannisport and the people of Riverrun are shocked that he was able to get past the Golden Tooth. 

Notice how Robb stays in the Westerlands for more than a month after the Blackwater and Tywin was under no pressure to respond. Robb was more of a nuisance than a genuine threat to the Westerlands. 

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But it is the logical assumption that when someone's home is under threat they will move to protect it.

 

Casterly Rock and Lannisport were never under threat. Perhaps if the Ironborn joined Robb's cause that might have happened, but Robb alone did not pose a threat to the Lannisters powerbase. 

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The Tyrell's were a wild card that no one could have predicted. Not to mention that Mace Tyrell would never dare make such a move without Tywin.

The Tyrells moved a 50k + army hundreds of miles from Bitterbridge to the Blackwater before meeting up with Tywin, the Tyrells killed and imprisoned supporters of Stannis before meeting up with Tywin. They made their intentions pretty clear. The hand of the Prince was what they needed, not Tywin. 

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Robb's force in the West is entirely cavalry and they were all raiding around the same area. The second word came of Tywin crossing the fords, they would have grouped up again before Tywin even reached the Golden Tooth.

Tywin's force was over 7k cavalry as well as any extra cavalry he could pick up in the West. On top of that there was 13k infantry with him, a few thousand at the Golden Tooth with Forley Prester and a few thousand at Lannisport with Daven Lannister on top of the garrisons of the many castles in the West. 

Not only would the Lannisters know their own lands better than Robb's Northmen, but they would at least triple the numbers, supplies at the Tywin's vassals settlements and the people of the Westerlands informing Tywin of the movements of Robb's invading army. The odds were hugely in Tywin's favor. 

 

Put it this way. does anyone think a 5k Lannister army would defeat a 20k Northern army in the North? Of course not. 

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Robb didn't tell Edmure why he wanted him to hold Riverrun because of the risk such a message carried.

eh? Robb's messengers told Riverrun were they there next targets were in the West, why would he not let him know that Edmure was to stand down and let Tywin pass?

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It wasn't that he didn't trust Edmure (he left the Kingslayer under his jurisdiction after all), it was that when he first moved into the West it was to destroy Stafford Lannister's host.

And to meet up with Theon. Though in actual fact from what we know Robb's plan going West and bypassing the Golden Tooth was hugely lucky. 

"How did the king ever take the Tooth?" Ser Perwyn Frey asked his bastard brother. "That's a hard strong keep, and it commands the hill road."
"He never took it. He slipped around it in the night. It's said the direwolf showed him the way, that Grey Wind of his. The beast sniffed out a goat track that wound down a defile and up along beneath a ridge, a crooked and stony way, yet wide enough for men riding single file. The Lannisters in their watchtowers got not so much a glimpse of them." 
 
Robb could not have possibly known how easy it would have been to go West when he marched West. At the very least he would have expected casialties from taking such a castle, casualties that would have impacted his future plans. 
 
In fact Robb
  • Suck past the Golden Tooth without picking up any casualties
  • Attacked a sleeping army with no sentries, with taking a minimum of casualties 

These were both very fortunate acts, not something any commander could actually plan for. 

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The plan to trap Tywin didn't spawn until later and putting the plan into a letter that would have to pass over/through the Golden Tooth would be too risky. As for number 8, I'm not quite sure what the point you're trying to make is.

Wasn't Robb injured at the Crag when Tywin was heading West. Was this part of his plan?

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Robb never claimed that Tywin didn't know the location, only that they would have the advantage there. Can't argue with ten, but as I recall the injury was only a minor one and wasn't part of the plan.

Robb was bedridden. He was stuck at the Crag. Any plan to run away from Tywin is undone by a bedridden commander. 

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Come to think of it, the Crag might not have happened until after Robb had already heard that Tywin wasn't coming; we aren't given a clear chronology, so taking the Crag may well have been some sort of consolation prize for the men who hadn't gotten the fight they'd wanted?

We know that Robb was heading to the Crag before the battle of the Fords.

"Save Cortnay Penrose," Catelyn murmured. She had never met the man, yet she grieved to hear of his passing. "Robb should know of this at once," she said. "Do we know where he is?"
"At last word he was marching toward the Crag, the seat of House Westerling," said Maester Vyman. "If I dispatched a raven to Ashemark, it may be that they could send a rider after him."
 
Given that the celebrations of Edmure's win and Robb's victory at the Crag were simultaneous it can be assumed they took place at roughly the same time. Logically, for news of Robb's victory to reach Riverrun it is likely that the Crag happened first. 
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Anyway, how would lying to Edmure about this benefit Robb in anyway?

In Robb's own words he was lost without the Freys. He was desperate for a man of Edmure's rank to be offered instead. It is very clear what benefit lying to Edmure was, as his crown and lands depended on it. 

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IIRC, the demand that Edmure marry the Frey's wasn't made until Lothar visited Riverrun for Hoster's funeral and I don't think offering a marriage to Edmure was something Robb had thought of ahead of time; when talking to his mother about winning the Frey's back he mentions Whoresbane and Crowfood and maybe some others but not Edmure. With this in mind, the only reason for Robb to lie would be pride but in that case, why would the Blackfish back him up.

In the same chapter that Edmure is asked to marry a Frey Cat points out that she herself has been manipulated by Robb. 

Only then came her belated remembrance. Follies done for love? He has bagged me neat as a hare in a snare. I seem to have already forgiven him. Mixed with her annoyance was a rueful admiration; the scene had been staged with the cunning worthy of a master mummer . . . or a king

 

GRRM has set the scene, Robb ambushed his mother mother and uncle into the Frey marriage wile his hands are clean. The majority of battles that Robb has won has involved some kind of cunning, usually attacking an unprepared enemy. Why should his politics be any different? 

 

And is that bad? If Robb thinks he has no hope without the Freys does it not make sense that he would manipulate his family for the greater good?

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As for singling out Edmure, well...yeah. It's a feudal kingdom. The Blackwoods, Vance's, Mallister's and Bracken's are sworn to follow Edmure so Robb doesn't blame them.

He does not blame Roose either. And you would think that Robb would want all his generals to know just in case such a scenario happens again. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, that it not true. GRRM (and Tyrion) states that Stannis was expected to stay at Storm's End for some time until it was captured. 

The reason Stannis did not stay at Storm's End for months on end was because he had a magical assassin to do his bidding. Are yiu suggesting the Robb expected Stannis to take Storm's End with a shadow baby?

The Shadow Baby killed Courtnay Penrose, as first off, what the fuck was Sir Shadow of House Baby doing for all that time after his birth until he finally slew Courtnay. It seems wrong especially considering that we only get this impression from rumors that Varys tells the small council on how Penrose died. It seems to me as though the guards threw Penrose from a tower, and you want to know what this reminds me of, Moat Cailin. The men mutany only to die afterwards at the command of the man that they accepted an offer of mercy for. Most likely they thought that Edric Storm wasn't worth starving or dying over and decided enough was enough.

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“If words of command are not clear and distinct, if orders are not thoroughly understood, then the general is to blame. But, if orders are clear and the soldiers nevertheless disobey, then it is the fault of their officers.” ― Sun Tzu

Seems like Robb's fault to me, it was certainly unclear.

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Whether or not Robb was lying, Edmure is clearly not at fault.  As stated above, Edmure definitely should have been involved in any important detailed strategy meetings which depended on him taking specific actions.  I think this all was an example of Robb having a bit of a fit and blaming someone else when angry with himself over his mistake with Jeyne.

In general, Edmure is one of my favorite minor characters.  Catelyn is soooooo condescending to him and angry at him for becoming his own man and acting at the Lord of Riverrun while her father is dying, and with him looking foolish missing the funeral arrows and Catelyn's constant undermining him it is easy to blame him.  But I think this is just one of GRRM's brilliant ways of using the influence of one-sided POVs to hide real truth's.  Edmure was in the right for his battle at stone mill, him admitting the small folk to Riverrun to protect them is super righteous, and the way he was able to help the Blackfish escape the siege of Riverrun later on is admirable in a crappy situation.  Overall, Edmure is a pretty great guy.

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Yes, Edmure is the best. The best lord anyway. The Balckfish on the other hand is a bone headed a-hole.

On 2.6.2017 at 5:51 PM, Adam Yozza said:

. With this in mind, the only reason for Robb to lie would be pride but in that case, why would the Blackfish back him up.

 

Because he's a dick. He hates Edmure for no good reason, probably jealous of his lordship, which is crazy for a man who refuses to have heirs for - again - absoluetely no reason, but the Blackfish does not seem a balanced resonable follow, if you look at him closely. The Blackfish is where Cat learned her disrespect for Edmure. They are condescending him in teamwork, probably since he is a little kid. Now, I don't mean everybody needs to be all that sorry for Edmure. He survived and I think will survive well, but I'm saying Cat and the Blackfish are a couple of stupid dicks.

Robb is clearly in the wrong, but I doubt is he flat out lying about his dissapointment of that plan not coming to pass. I'm very open to the idea that he wanted Edmure to marry a Frey before saying it out loud.

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54 minutes ago, ftheking said:

Yes, Edmure is the best. The best lord anyway. The Balckfish on the other hand is a bone headed a-hole.

Because he's a dick. He hates Edmure for no good reason, probably jealous of his lordship, which is crazy for a man who refuses to have heirs for - again - absoluetely no reason, but the Blackfish does not seem a balanced resonable follow, if you look at him closely. The Blackfish is where Cat learned her disrespect for Edmure. They are condescending him in teamwork, probably since he is a little kid. Now, I don't mean everybody needs to be all that sorry for Edmure. He survived and I think will survive well, but I'm saying Cat and the Blackfish are a couple of stupid dicks.

Robb is clearly in the wrong, but I doubt is he flat out lying about his dissapointment of that plan not coming to pass. I'm very open to the idea that he wanted Edmure to marry a Frey before saying it out loud.

Not necessarily. Don't get me wrong, I quite like Edmure even if he's not one of my favourites. He was absolutely not at fault for defending his lands when Tywin tried to cross them and he remains the only person to beat Tywin in the field, not to mention the super admirable decision to allow the smallfolk inside Riverrun. However, I don't think Robb was lying when he told Edmure that his orders to hold Riverrun had literally meant hold the castle and I also don't think he was the only one 'in the wrong'. This was both their faults to an extent, even if I would agree that Edmure did the right thing and that it was more Robb's fault than his. Edmure misunderstood the orders he was given; Robb could have been clearer in his meaning, Edmure could have kept a lid on his need for some glory. They were both responsible in some way.

As for the Blackfish, well why should he have heir's? Alright, given the state of the Tully line right now it'd be sensible to do but it was pretty secure when he and Hoster had that argument and there's probably a good reason for him refusing to marry. Maybe he's gay, maybe the woman he loved died, who knows. It's not really fair to have a go at him for that though. I don't think he does hate Edmure; to me, it seems he's more frustrated/exasperated by Edmure's naivety and lust for glory (which is one of the reason's he takes the fight to Tywin)

1 hour ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Whether or not Robb was lying, Edmure is clearly not at fault.  As stated above, Edmure definitely should have been involved in any important detailed strategy meetings which depended on him taking specific actions.  I think this all was an example of Robb having a bit of a fit and blaming someone else when angry with himself over his mistake with Jeyne.

Except that wasn't possible. The plan to lure Tywin west wasn't devised until they were in the West at which point it becomes impossible to involve him all that closely. They can't inform him by raven because of the risk it'd fall into enemy hands while Edmure going to Oxcross only to return to Riverrun afterwards (or Robb going back to Riverrun to tell him) would instantly let Tywin know that something's up.

I'm not blaming Edmure here, he did nothing wrong, I'm just saying I think Robb was genuine when he said that he'd intended for his orders to hold Riverrun to be taken literally. So while him being mad at his own mistake may be part of it, and might be why he's so tough on Edmure, I don't think it's the sole reason nor the most important one for him blaming Edmure. From Robb's POV I'm sure it would seem as though Edmure was at fault; he didn't understand simple instructions and while I don't blame him for that, Robb would.  

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7 hours ago, ftheking said:

Because he's a dick.

I disagree with this. There is a very good reason why they felt the need to lie to Edmure, the fate of Robb's kingdom was in the balance and the only hope they had was Edmure marrying a Frey, and they needed him to do it ASAP and on Walder's terms rather than Edmures. 

 

6 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

should he have heir's? Alright, given the state of the Tully line right now it'd be sensible to do but it was pretty secure when he and Hoster had that argument and there's probably a good reason for him refusing to marry. Maybe he's gay, maybe the woman he loved died, who knows. It's not really fair to have a go at him for that though. 

Of course he should have married. Nobles are the 1% and one of the few responsibilities they have is to marry and forge greater relations with other Houses. 

"Even so," Lord Hoster muttered. "Even so. Spit on the girl. The Redwynes. Spit on me. His lord, his brother … that Blackfish. I had other offers. Lord Bracken's girl. Walder Frey … any of three, he said … Has he wed? Anyone? Anyone?"

The Tullys fortunes could have been very different had Blackfish done his duty and forged those extra alliances. Not only would he have married into a powerful House but his children would have as well. 

6 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

Except that wasn't possible. The plan to lure Tywin west wasn't devised until they were in the West at which point it becomes impossible to involve him all that closely. They can't inform him by raven because of the risk it'd fall into enemy hands while Edmure going to Oxcross only to return to Riverrun afterwards (or Robb going back to Riverrun to tell him) would instantly let Tywin know that something's up.

Robb was informing Riverrun of his exact movements. We know that he is heading to the Crag from Ashemark from a raven. Robb could have given new orders to Tywin in a raven, he chose not to. 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

I disagree with this. There is a very good reason why they felt the need to lie to Edmure, the fate of Robb's kingdom was in the balance and the only hope they had was Edmure marrying a Frey, and they needed him to do it ASAP and on Walder's terms rather than Edmures. 

Indeed, still shame it was too little too late.

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8 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Of course he should have married. Nobles are the 1% and one of the few responsibilities they have is to marry and forge greater relations with other Houses. 

"Even so," Lord Hoster muttered. "Even so. Spit on the girl. The Redwynes. Spit on me. His lord, his brother … that Blackfish. I had other offers. Lord Bracken's girl. Walder Frey … any of three, he said … Has he wed? Anyone? Anyone?"

The Tullys fortunes could have been very different had Blackfish done his duty and forged those extra alliances. Not only would he have married into a powerful House but his children would have as well. 

Robb was informing Riverrun of his exact movements. We know that he is heading to the Crag from Ashemark from a raven. Robb could have given new orders to Tywin in a raven, he chose not to. 

 

 

Except not all of them do. Denys Mallister, Jon, Jaime, Barristan, Benjen, Balon Swann, Loras Tyrell and many others haven't married for one reason or another (usually because they joined the KG or Night's Watch), so to say it is completely necessary for nobles to marry is just wrong. As I mentioned, Brynden might have a good reason for not marrying; the odds of it being "just because" is exceptionally low.

In hindsight yes, Brynden not marrying the Redwyne girl was a mistake; even he admits that. But at the time he had no idea they'd ever need such an alliance, so it's not fair to blame him for not doing so when we don't know what his reasons were.

As to your point about Robb...so what? He was sent a raven saying he was moving from Ashenmark to the Crag, it's not vital information that could ruin everything if Tywin found out. If the Golden Tooth had intercepted a raven saying "Let Tywin cross, we're laying a trap for him" then the entire plan falls apart. So no, informing Edmure by raven was not possible.

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10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I disagree with this. There is a very good reason why they felt the need to lie to Edmure, the fate of Robb's kingdom was in the balance and the only hope they had was Edmure marrying a Frey, and they needed him to do it ASAP and on Walder's terms rather than Edmures.

You mean the Blackfish tried to manipulate Edmure to marry a Frey? Well that would be some nerve! YOU marry a Frey first and not hide behind your nephew, coward. Honestly if he got how important that was, he should have at least offered his old ass for a double wedding.

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4 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

Except not all of them do. Denys Mallister, Jon, Jaime, Barristan, Benjen, Balon Swann, Loras Tyrell and many others haven't married for one reason or another (usually because they joined the KG or Night's Watch), so to say it is completely necessary for nobles to marry is just wrong.

It is necessary when the family seems small, which the Tullys do. Hoster and Bryndem seem to be the only children of the previous Lord Tully. We hear of no cousins.

Both Jaime and Loras are from huge families, that are greatly connected to the other Houses in the Westerlands and Reach.

Benjen and Jon actually help my point. Had they married they would have increased the amount of Stars there and created more alliances. Perhaps Benjen married to a Dustin or Ryswell would have seen them offer more support to Robb and Winterfell when it was captured. 

Denys Mallister joined the nights Watch before Robert's Rebellion. We know Jason had at least one brother, has at least one son and another prominent Mallister who was killed by Aerys. When Denys joined they seem to have been fine for members, and they still may well be. We really don't know enough about them. The same is true of House Swann and House Selmy. Their respective Houses may well be bustling with members. House Tully is not. 

 

4 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

As I mentioned, Brynden might have a good reason for not marrying; the odds of it being "just because" is exceptionally low.

None of your reasons seem that good. Plenty of gay men would have done their duty and married. His nieces and nephew did their duty. Political marriage is a major part of the culture and nobles who choose to opt out, while continuing to enjoy the beneifits that come form their station, seem pretty petulant. 

Had he married some commoner who he loved then sure, I could understand that. But he has remained a bachelor when he could have married and been as disatant to his wife as many of the other nobles in the series are to theirs. 

4 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

In hindsight yes, Brynden not marrying the Redwyne girl was a mistake; even he admits that. But at the time he had no idea they'd ever need such an alliance, so it's not fair to blame him for not doing so when we don't know what his reasons were.

Of course we can blame him. If there is a good reason then I'll retract my opinion, but until then I think he let his family down. Hoster was right to be pissed. 

4 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

As to your point about Robb...so what? He was sent a raven saying he was moving from Ashenmark to the Crag, it's not vital information

Of course it is vital information. Giving away your whereabouts in enemy territory is the very definition of vital information. Especially if your 'plan' involves surprising the enemy. 

You are clutching at straws. Robb was injured at the Crag, he was in no position to fight Tywin's much larger host. He needed a patsy to marry a Frey so blamed the Crown winning on the Blackwater on Edmure; a man who had no control over what the Tyrells would do and even if he did nothing and stayed at Riverrun would have let Tywin turn around and head to Kings Landing should he have received a messenger at the Golden Tooth. 

In the same chapter he blames Edmure his own mother notes how much more cunning and manipulative he has become. 

He has bagged me neat as a hare in a snare. I seem to have already forgiven him. Mixed with her annoyance was a rueful admiration; the scene had been staged with the cunning worthy of a master mummer . . . or a king.

Robb tricked not only his uncle into taking the blame and responsibility for the Battle of the Blakwater but even tricked his mother into suggesting it as neither Robb or the Blackfish, with their records on marriage, could very well ask Edmure to marry him.

"We must win back the Freys," said Robb. "With them, we still have some chance of success, however small. Without them, I see no hope. I am willing to give Lord Walder whatever he requires . . . apologies, honors, lands, gold . . . there must be something that would soothe his pride . . ."

"Not something," said Catelyn. "Someone."

those ellipses are very telling, almost pleading for someone to mention marriage. 

 

Now I personally don't have a problem with Robb's actions here. As a King he has bigger issues to deal with and if manipulating Edmure into marrying a Frey can save both his House and his Kingdom (and perhaps even Edmure's House) then it is the right action to take. Some Robb fans seem to hate the idea that he can be manipulative, even if for the greater good, as they just want him to be white knight. 

 

 

 

 

 

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