wait jaime can't be warden of the west.

[snow is the man]

In the first book we hear robert tell ned that jaime will be warden of the west. But he couldn't be because he is a kingsguard and they can't hold office or titles. It was bad enough that he took command of an army to attack riverrun but how could could robert make him warden of the west?

[Bernie Mac]

The Kingsguard can not hold hereditary titles, they can however be Wardens or Hands of the King. Appointments that are technically given by the King. 

 

And Warden seems to be a military title, while should Tywin die his two heirs, Tyrion and Cersei, seem ill equipped to be in charge of the realms protection. 

[DarkBastard]

What Bernie said.

And, Robert was naming him Warden of the East, not West...Tywin had that role. It's unclear whether the promise was ever delivered on. 

[Kaibaman]

In Medieval England the rank of Warden wasn't supposed to be hereditary.since wardens were appointed by the crown. And since Kingsguards can already take on other royal official posts like becoming Hand, Lord Commanders of the Goldcloaks and lead armies in their king's name. There's no reason why they should not be allowed to be wardens either.

[Renly's Banana]

I dunno, I never understood this whole plan of Robert's. It seems incredibly stupid, even by Robert standards. Not only would it be an unprecedented and ridiculous promotion, but the Vale lords would NEVER have gone along with it. Sure he's their king and what he says goes, but why even risk it? Why piss off this huge and formidable kingdom right next to you for absolutely no reason? I doubt this was Tywin's notion, so it was probably Cersei's idea. Which makes even less sense. 

I dunno; I want to trust GRRM, but there are a few things in the first book that just don't jive with the rest of the established world and narrative.

[Lord Wraith]

38 minutes ago, Renly's Banana said:

I dunno, I never understood this whole plan of Robert's. It seems incredibly stupid, even by Robert standards. Not only would it be an unprecedented and ridiculous promotion, but the Vale lords would NEVER have gone along with it. Sure he's their king and what he says goes, but why even risk it? Why piss off this huge and formidable kingdom right next to you for absolutely no reason? I doubt this was Tywin's notion, so it was probably Cersei's idea. Which makes even less sense. 

I dunno; I want to trust GRRM, but there are a few things in the first book that just don't jive with the rest of the established world and narrative.

I agree. It's certianly a Cersei plan. 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

1 hour ago, Renly's Banana said:

I dunno, I never understood this whole plan of Robert's. It seems incredibly stupid, even by Robert standards. Not only would it be an unprecedented and ridiculous promotion, but the Vale lords would NEVER have gone along with it. Sure he's their king and what he says goes, but why even risk it? Why piss off this huge and formidable kingdom right next to you for absolutely no reason? I doubt this was Tywin's notion, so it was probably Cersei's idea. Which makes even less sense. 

I dunno; I want to trust GRRM, but there are a few things in the first book that just don't jive with the rest of the established world and narrative.

LOL pretty sure you mean "jibe"  

And recall that Robert really didn't enjoy being king. I think he was more concerned with keeping Cersei relatively pleased than actually coming up with good political moves.

[Foot_Of_The_King]

2 hours ago, Renly's Banana said:

 

I dunno; I want to trust GRRM, but there are a few things in the first book that just don't jive with the rest of the established world and narrative.

I think this is the case. 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

5 hours ago, Renly's Banana said:

I dunno, I never understood this whole plan of Robert's. It seems incredibly stupid, even by Robert standards. Not only would it be an unprecedented and ridiculous promotion, but the Vale lords would NEVER have gone along with it. Sure he's their king and what he says goes, but why even risk it? Why piss off this huge and formidable kingdom right next to you for absolutely no reason? I doubt this was Tywin's notion, so it was probably Cersei's idea. Which makes even less sense.

He believed that in the times of peace, wardenship was just an honorary, purely ornamental title, he said as much. So, he exchanged a cheap, flashy toy for Lord Tywin's coin.

And, if the time of war, where wardenship would become actually relevant, he would be most happy to be "forced" to take command of the forces of the Vale himself. Bob liked war.

I'm not saying it was the greatest, best thought plan in the world, but, from Bob's POV, it made sense.

[Bernie Mac]

3 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

He believed that in the times of peace, wardenship was just an honorary, purely ornamental title, he said as much. So, he exchanged a cheap, flashy toy for Lord Tywin's coin.

That is not actually the case. Robert does not want Robin as Warden precisely because he does not see the Wardenship of the East coast as an ornamental position. 

"He will not cross," Ned promised. "And if by some mischance he does, we will throw him back into the sea. Once you choose a new Warden of the East - "

The king groaned. "For the last time, I will not name the Arryn boy Warden. I know the boy is your nephew, but with Targaryens climbing in bed with Dothraki, I would be mad to rest one quarter of the realm on the shoulders of a sickly child."

Robert takes the position seriously and as the conversation goes on he notes that he does trust Jaime. And it should be noted that Jaime and Robert are not too dissimilar, both are cocky, exceptional warriors who command the respect of the other nobles and soldiers from how deadly they are. Robert is likely to see more of himself in Jaime than he does Stannis or Renly, Ned's other candidates for the role. 

 

[DarkBastard]

This is more likely coming from Tywin than Cersei, through Grand Maester Pycell's influence.

 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

I always thought Yohn Royce should have gotten that job. He's from the Vail and likes hunting and sparring. You'd think Robert would have gotten along with him if they crossed paths during Robert's fostering in the Vail.

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I always thought Yohn Royce should have gotten that job. He's from the Vail and likes hunting and sparring. You'd think Robert would have gotten along with him if they crossed paths during Robert's fostering in the Vail.

Perhaps making Arryn's most powerful vassal his military superior for the next decade would also have been bad for the Arryns as it may have made a power imbalance in the Vale. 

This was likely a decision that would have angered the Arryns no matter what.

[GyantSpyder]

The Warden of the East's job is to protect Westeros from threats from the East.

If Robert is thinking militarily rather than politically, it's fine if it's not an Arryn that holds this position, as the invasion from the East that he's currently concerned with is much more likely to hit in Dorne, the Stormlands or the Crownlands than in the Vale.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

6 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Perhaps making Arryn's most powerful vassal his military superior for the next decade would also have been bad for the Arryns as it may have made a power imbalance in the Vale. 

This was likely a decision that would have angered the Arryns no matter what.

Sure but from a purely military prospective with Robert being concerned with war I feel like Yohn would be a good fit. As he knows the Vail and probably how to protect it better then someone who doesn't live there.

[GyantSpyder]

Geez, whoever made the decision to kill Jon Arryn sure did create a bunch of difficult problems for the Baratheon administration, didn't they?

[Bernie Mac]

5 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Sure but from a purely military prospective with Robert being concerned with war I feel like Yohn would be a good fit. As he knows the Vail and probably how to protect it better then someone who doesn't live there.

Robert is not worried about the safety of the Vale, he is worried about a foreign invasion and would rather his brother-in-law, who he may not like but respects as a warrior. to be his representative in battle. 

 

This is nepotism 101. Just like Stannis appoints his in-laws, the Florents, to the senior positions of the command, Robert would do the same. 

 

Ned and the readers see the Lannisters as an entirely separate family. Robert would not,t they are his wife's family and he would think they were as invested in his crown and heirs as much as he was. 

[Renly's Banana]

13 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Robert takes the position seriously and as the conversation goes on he notes that he does trust Jaime. And it should be noted that Jaime and Robert are not too dissimilar, both are cocky, exceptional warriors who command the respect of the other nobles and soldiers from how deadly they are. Robert is likely to see more of himself in Jaime than he does Stannis or Renly, Ned's other candidates for the role. 

I like this, actually. It's a pretty solid point to bring up, and one that was most likely true. Robert appreciates strength and skill above all else, and Jaime undeniably had both. 

Quote

And recall that Robert really didn't enjoy being king. I think he was more concerned with keeping Cersei relatively pleased than actually coming up with good political moves.

That's the thing, though -- Robert didn't really care what Cersei wanted or did. Only when she argues with Ned do we see some semblance of neutrality from him. Otherwise, no. It also makes no sense for Tywin to want this for his son.

21 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

LOL pretty sure you mean "jibe"  

Maybe it's jibe, maybe he's jivin', guess we'll see. 

[Lord Wraith]

You know provided this was a Cersei move, and it probably is. It gives us another interesting clue in the Jon Arryn Death/Sweetrobin fostering issue.

[DarkBastard]

Quote

AGOT, Chapter 12, Eddard II:

The king shifted uncomfortably in his saddle. "Perhaps. There are ships to be had in the Free Cities, though. I tell you, Ned, I do not like this marriage. There are still those in the Seven Kingdoms who call me Usurper. Do you forget how many houses fought for Targaryen in the war? They bide their time for now, but give them half a chance, they will murder me in my bed, and my sons with me. If the beggar king crosses with a Dothraki horde at his back, the traitors will join him."

Choosing Jamie may have seemed the safer move in Robert's mind.  He still had concern over the loyalty of his subjects, and Lysa's flight from Kings Landing may have been further cause for worry.  If the circumstances around Jon Arryn's death were "questionable" to Lysa, she could express that view to any potential Warden of the East chosen from The Vale.  A disgruntled Warden of the East could facilitate a Targaryen return instead of repelling it.  

With Jamie in place, there would be no concern for that...at least in Robert's view.  His focus was only on the Targaryen threat...so much that he couldn't see the threats all around him.  He was blind to everything but that, even to the validity of his own children.