Hair parentage

[Ygrain]

3 minutes ago, snow is the man said:

aegon had red hair if I remember.

WUT?

 

3 minutes ago, snow is the man said:

The only time hair color really mattered was with lannister and baratheon and that was because no matter how many times the baratheons married someone from another family the hair always came out black and yet with cersei the three children are blond and look nothing like him. Where as the targaryens married their sisters and other relatives so it was hard to tell how strong their "seed" was

They married non-Targs, as well, and results were varied. There were several instances of taking after the other parent.

[Prof. Cecily]

9 hours ago, Seams said:

Could you put a spoiler tag on your meme link, since it seems to contain spoiler content from the HBO show? Thanks.

Better yet I've tried to eliminate it.

I honestly thought this was a  show thread. 

My blunder!

Uf.

[Prof. Cecily]

4 hours ago, IceFire125 said:

Noticed that Ned wasn't afraid if the child is a girl was already an indication, but it's what Robert said that added strength to my opinion, that Jon is a legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna more relevant.  Thus added strength in the opinion that the Kingsguard didn't really had to go to Dragonstone to Prince Viserys.  Because to them, the king was in the tower.

I don't understand how that could be. 

Viserys was named Aerys' heir after Rhaegar's death at the Trident.

The KG doesn't get to decide the line of succession, CMIIW.

[Damein Blackfyre true king]

1 hour ago, Prof. Cecily said:

I don't understand how that could be. 

Viserys was named Aerys' heir after Rhaegar's death at the Trident.

The KG doesn't get to decide the line of succession, CMIIW.

Things aren't that linear in war. Kingslanding was split between Rhaegar and Aerys.  When Rhaegar died the future of the targaryans died.  Areys could have named Moon boy his heir it wouldn't have mattered.  Once Rhaegar died, Areys dynasty was over.  So was Vicerys the official heir maybe, but the way the 3 kingguards were acting I feel that they felt that Rhaegar was king. If you go by that their behavior makes sense at the tower.  Their king gave them order and they followed it to their death.  Regardless the minute Vicerys died the next monarch from houe Targaryan would have to earn the thrown by conquest not by blood. 

[Tianzi]

15 hours ago, Pacala said:

Here`s how Martin "parentage" story works (seems to me the seeds from father side is stronger, except Starks):

Robert black hair

Cercei dead son black hair

Jaimie blonde hair

Cercei kids blonde hair

Jon Aryn blonde hair

Littlefinger dark hair

Robin dark hair

Ned Star dark brown hair

Catelyn kids auburn hair.

Arya dark brown hair

Rhaegar silver hair

Jon dark brown hair

according to Ned theory from "The Lineages and Histories of the Great Houses of the Seven Kingdoms" Cericei kids are all Lannister bastards but hes kids are Starks.

For some reason N<C= posible, Rh<L= posible but R<C= imposible. And in all the cases we have strong womens

correction it dosent aply to Ned not starks

What?

While at it, Robert is genetically as much of a Targ as of a Baratheon. Actually more, since the Baratheons supposedly didn't bang each other. Every descendant of every House is as much a descendant of his 'name' line (the purely male line), as his purely female line and every other line that came in the mix, but the name didn't prevail. The theory of a 'family look' (family associated with the name) is erratic in itself, unless we have inbreeding or the genes are really dominant. Had the current Stark generation had normal lives, the next 'Stark look' would have Tully colors (or Robb's, Bran's or Rickon's wives', if they had strong genes).

And Ned had lots of supporting evidence during the Baratheon-Lannister case. Was it only the Joff-Myrcella-Tommen trio, without Robert's bastards to provide statistic, his theory of Cersei's children being Jaime's wouldn't be convincing, at least for a modern mind. Three children of even supposedly recessive features are completely possible, and by using her own brother to do the deed, Cersei didn't bring any genetic third party to the mix. She could've even produced three Lannister-looking heirs innocently, with her husband, even if it's statistically unlikely.

[Trigger Warning]

It was just a plot device for Ned to work things out, as such it's a Baratheon thing. 

[Prof. Cecily]

55 minutes ago, Damein Blackfyre true king said:

Things aren't that linear in war. Kingslanding was split between Rhaegar and Aerys.  When Rhaegar died the future of the targaryans died.  Areys could have named Moon boy his heir it wouldn't have mattered.  Once Rhaegar died, Areys dynasty was over.  So was etween hthe official heir maybe, but the way the 3 kingguards were acting I feel that they felt that Rhaegar was king. If you go by that their behavior makes sense at the tower.  Their king gave them order and they followed it to their death.  Regardless the minute Vicerys died the next monarch from houe Targaryan would have to earn the thrown by conquest not by blood. 

How do you figure KL was divided between Rhaegar and Aerys?

How could Rhaegar be king?

ToJ takes place after Rhaegar's death, doesn't it?

He fought for his father, IIRC. Rhaegar did not rebel against his father.

When did Viserys die?

 

[velo-knight]

2 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

How do you figure KL was divided between Rhaegar and Aerys?

How could Rhaegar be king?

ToJ takes place after Rhaegar's death, doesn't it?

He fought for his father, IIRC. Rhaegar did not rebel against his father.

When did Viserys die?

 

Tensions between the Prince and the King were quite high and it's generally accepted by many readers that Harrenhal was bankrolled by Rhaegar as an attempt to build a coalition to help him become regent or force Aerys to abdicate.

Aerys may have been the King, but Rhaegar had his own men and they seem to have regarded him as a king in all but name.

[Prof. Cecily]

8 minutes ago, velo-knight said:

Tensions between the Prince and the King were quite high and it's generally accepted by many readers that Harrenhal was bankrolled by Rhaegar as an attempt to build a coalition to help him become regent or force Aerys to abdicate.

Aerys may have been the King, but Rhaegar had his own men and they seem to have regarded him as a king in all but name.

What does that have to do with KL?

Are you saying Rhaegar subverted the KG?

[velo-knight]

1 minute ago, Prof. Cecily said:

What does that have to do with KL?

I'm assuming the KL comment was a mistake, actually - @Damein Blackfyre true king, did you mean to write "KG"?

1 minute ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Are you saying Rhaegar subverted the KG?

Or three intelligent, dedicated men admired and chose the king who should have been, not the king who was. As an aside, how do we know that they even knew of the Viserys decree? Ned refers to Prince, not King, Viserys - and since the decree was issued in the short window between Rhaegar's death and the Sack, so even if word was sent, by the time the news arrived to the ToJ, it may have been arriving alongside the news that Aerys was dead, Viserys and Rhaella fled, and King's Landing taken. At that point, they may have considered Viserys to have abdicated or his claim to be invalid on the grounds of Aerys' well-known madness.

What's important is that Ned refers to Viserys as prince, and they do not correct him; that he implicitly challenges them to explain their presence (and potentially even offers them a way out, to exile with Viserys); they choose to remain where they are. Guarding their King.

[Pacala]

4 hours ago, Tianzi said:

Cersei didn't bring any genetic third party to the mix

how would u know ? u have Catelyn dominant over Ned.

and if R+L=J true u have Lyanna dominant over Rhaegar

u already have 2 cases when female>man

why Cercei couldn`t be dominant over Robert (he has Targ gene) ?

[Castellan]

I doubt GRRM put as much thought into trying to make a system as this thread!

As a plot device, Jon has to have a Stark look, silver hair would be a dead giveaway. With his original three book trilogy and perhaps not anticipating such obsessive web sites to spring up, a good part of readers might not have guessed Jon's parentage - leaving it as a successful mystery revealed later in the book. Not having a physical resemblance leaves that element of doubt and suspense even for readers who basically believe it. 

As for Lannisters and Baratheon's that's supposed to be the single instance of an actual weirdly dominate gene, I think. 

 

[Prof. Cecily]

3 hours ago, velo-knight said:

I'm assuming the KL comment was a mistake, actually - @Damein Blackfyre true king, did you mean to write "KG"?

Or three intelligent, dedicated men admired and chose the king who should have been, not the king who was. As an aside, how do we know that they even knew of the Viserys decree? Ned refers to Prince, not King, Viserys - and since the decree was issued in the short window between Rhaegar's death and the Sack, so even if word was sent, by the time the news arrived to the ToJ, it may have been arriving alongside the news that Aerys was dead, Viserys and Rhaella fled, and King's Landing taken. At that point, they may have considered Viserys to have abdicated or his claim to be invalid on the grounds of Aerys' well-known madness.

What's important is that Ned refers to Viserys as prince, and they do not correct him; that he implicitly challenges them to explain their presence (and potentially even offers them a way out, to exile with Viserys); they choose to remain where they are. Guarding their King.

Hmmm. I'm going to Google all this and find out what's actually book, and what's show in what we're talking about.

I confess to confusing the two sources for our knowledge of ToJ sometimes and I'd like to be sure we're not discussing a show topic in a book-only thread.

 

Edited to add:

Here are the sources of information about the ToJ from the books:

Quote

 

...Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.

A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

Quote

According to his fever dream, Eddard traveled to the tower of joy with six northern companions: Howland Reed, Lord Willam Dustin, Ethan Glover, Martyn Cassel, Theo Wull, and Ser Mark Ryswell. They approached the tower to recover Eddard's sister, Lyanna, but found the tower protected by Gerold, Arthur, and Oswell of the Kingsguard. Eddard recalls that he and Howland were the only survivors of the ensuing conflict.[2]

According to a semi-canon source, Eddard found Lyanna dying in the tower,[3] in a room smelling of blood and roses.[6] She claimed a promise from her brother before she died, and Howland removed Ned's hand from hers.[6] Afterwards, Eddard pulled stones from the tower to make eight cairns for the dead combatants.[2]

Eddard returned Arthur's sword, Dawn, to Starfall, the seat of House Dayne.[7] Arthur's sister, Ashara Dayne, threw herself into the Summer Sea.[8] While Ned had been upset with King Robert I Baratheon after the Sack of King's Landing, the death of Lyanna reconciled the old friends.[9]

Eddard returned Lyanna's body to the north so she could be buried with her brother, Brandon, and her father, Lord Rickard.[2] While traditionally only lords or kings are honored with statues in the crypts of Winterfell, Ned commissioned statues for Brandon and Lyanna as exceptions.[10]

Servants at Winterfell whisper that Ned defeated Arthur, the Sword of the Morning, in single combat.[7] When Bran Stark was little, Ned told his son he would have died if not for Howland.[11]

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Combat_at_the_tower_of_joy

 

And here's a mention of the KG's loyalty to Aerys

Quote

Jaime's anger had risen up in his throat. "I am not a crutch. I am a knight of the Kingsguard."

"Then guard the king," Ser Jon Darry snapped at him. "When you donned that cloak, you promised to obey."

Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime's shoulder. "When this battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but . . . well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return."

Those were the last words Rhaegar Targaryen ever spoke to him. Outside the gates an army had assembled, whilst another descended on the Trident. So the Prince of Dragonstone mounted up and donned his tall black helm, and rode forth to his doom.

A Feast for Crows - Jaime I

That's all I could find and I'm staggered at how many theories have been spun with so very little information.

Unless there's more in the books that I'm missing!

 

[Ygrain]

About the ToJ: I'll post a parallel of the dream and real memories when I get back home.

 

As for the KG: you miss old Hightower telling Jaime that he swore to protect the king, not judge him, the oft-repeated expectation "to protect the king and die for him if need be), the ritual of "who protects the king" when all the KG confer, Ned's assessment of the old-time KG as a shining lesson to the world and of Arthur Dayne as the finest of them, and perhaps some more.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

12 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

I don't understand how that could be. 

Viserys was named Aerys' heir after Rhaegar's death at the Trident.

Was he?

CMIIW, but I think we have only one source for that, and that source, when it comes to what went down in King's Landing after the Trident, is extremely unreliable.

"This time, Lord Tywin’s cause was that of the realm’s, and he was determined to bring an end to the reign that madness had brought low."

"those who ravished and murdered Princess Elia escaped justice. It is not known who murdered Princess Rhaenys in her bed, or smashed the infant Prince Aegon’s head against a wall. Some whisper it was done at Aerys’s own command when he learned that Lord Lannister had taken up Robert’s cause, while others suggest that Elia did it herself for fear of what would happen to her children in the hands of her dead husband’s enemies."

Yeah right.

And even if (which is a substantial if) Aerys had named Viserys his heir, it's possible the proclamation didn't reach anybody outside King's Landing. Notice that Viserys never mentioned that, and he never shut up about his precious claim and how important he was.

[Prof. Cecily]

34 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

About the ToJ: I'll post a parallel of the dream and real memories when I get back home.

 

As for the KG: you miss old Hightower telling Jaime that he swore to protect the king, not judge him, the oft-repeated expectation "to protect the king and die for him if need be), the ritual of "who protects the king" when all the KG confer, Ned's assessment of the old-time KG as a shining lesson to the world and of Arthur Dayne as the finest of them, and perhaps some more.

Very true! Old Hightower is explicit on the subject.

I'm looking forward to seeing the parallels!

[Tianzi]

6 hours ago, Pacala said:

how would u know ? u have Catelyn dominant over Ned.

and if R+L=J true u have Lyanna dominant over Rhaegar

u already have 2 cases when female>man

why Cercei couldn`t be dominant over Robert (he has Targ gene) ?

Yy, I said exactly this. Cersei could have been dominant over Robert even if she had children with him. Because she used her brother (another pack of Lannister genes), the children look Lannister and that is no 'proof' of her infidelity - they could've looked so anyway.

[Prof. Cecily]

7 hours ago, velo-knight said:

Spoiler

 

Or three intelligent, dedicated men admired and chose the king who should have been, not the king who was. As an aside, how do we know that they even knew of the Viserys decree? Ned refers to Prince, not King, Viserys - and since the decree was issued in the short window between Rhaegar's death and the Sack, so even if word was sent, by the time the news arrived to the ToJ, it may have been arriving alongside the news that Aerys was dead, Viserys and Rhaella fled, and King's Landing taken. At that point, they may have considered Viserys to have abdicated or his claim to be invalid on the grounds of Aerys' well-known madness.

What's important is that Ned refers to Viserys as prince, and they do not correct him; that he implicitly challenges them to explain their presence (and potentially even offers them a way out, to exile with Viserys); they choose to remain where they are. Guarding their King.

 

 

This is all show material. We're talking about material from the books here.

13 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Was he?

CMIIW, but I think we have only one source for that, and that source, when it comes to what went down in King's Landing after the Trident, is extremely unreliable.

"This time, Lord Tywin’s cause was that of the realm’s, and he was determined to bring an end to the reign that madness had brought low."

"those who ravished and murdered Princess Elia escaped justice. It is not known who murdered Princess Rhaenys in her bed, or smashed the infant Prince Aegon’s head against a wall. Some whisper it was done at Aerys’s own command when he learned that Lord Lannister had taken up Robert’s cause, while others suggest that Elia did it herself for fear of what would happen to her children in the hands of her dead husband’s enemies."

Yeah right.

And even if (which is a substantial if) Aerys had named Viserys his heir, it's possible the proclamation didn't reach anybody outside King's Landing. Notice that Viserys never mentioned that, and he never shut up about his precious claim and how important he was.

Good points! The sources can be ambiguous, yet we have to come back to the reality of who is actually the KIng. And the king is Aerys, not Rhaegar. Rhaegar is never king. 

After Aerys' death, it's Viserys who's crowned on Dragonstone. Given that Viserys has no POV chapters, all we know about him is what others tell, so it's hard to know the truth of what he actually claimed.

 

Still, at the end of the day, all we have on the events at ToJ is what's revealed in Ned's feverish dream.

I think we'll have to wait upon the publication of the next books to know what really happened there.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

59 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

This is all show material. We're talking about material from the books here.

Good points! The sources can be ambiguous, yet we have to come back to the reality of who is actually the KIng. And the king is Aerys, not Rhaegar. Rhaegar is never king. 

After Aerys' death, it's Viserys who's crowned on Dragonstone.

Aegon and Rhaenys were dead then, and Viserys was the last (known) Targaryen alive beside his mother.

[Prof. Cecily]

2 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Aegon and Rhaenys were dead then, and Viserys was the last Targaryen alive beside his mother.

Correct!

And Queen Rhaella was pregnant with her daughter at the time of the crowning of Viserys.

Who died first: Aegon or Aerys?

Poor Rhaenys would have been out of the loop in any case, CMIIW.