Hair parentage

[Pacala]

how come Jon being Rhaegar son still standing when we know George Martin use hair to authentificate parentage ?

[Seams]

You're right. Suddenly the whole house of cards collapses.

Actually, I think people have seen GRRM put surprises into the story from time to time. Even though Ned thinks hair color is proof of parentage for certain family lines, I suspect that the author will surprise us with some children who don't follow the pattern one might expect for haircolor. Maybe Jon is one of those children; maybe not.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Here's how this "parentage" thing works: here's one parent, called "father", and another parent, called "mother". One can inherit stuff from either of them.

ETA: oh, sorry. I missed that you were the author of that "It is so obvious, rape rape rape" thread, hence, an obvious troll. Never mind.

[Maxxine]

GRRM doesn't use hair color to prove parentage. It really only applied in the Baratheon-Lannister scenario. When a Baratheon procreates with a Lannister the black hair wins. But it doesn't apply in the Stark-Tully marriage. All the kids except Arya got Tully hair and no one questions who Robb, Sansa, Bran & Rickon's father is. Also, as someone on this site pointed out a while ago (I'm sorry I don't remember who), when Targs marry outside their own the first child tends to have the features of the other parent and the other children tend to have Targ features. So assuming RLJ is true Jon looks would follow that pattern.

[WeKnowNothing]

46 minutes ago, Maxxine said:

GRRM doesn't use hair color to prove parentage. It really only applied in the Baratheon-Lannister scenario. When a Baratheon procreates with a Lannister the black hair wins. But it doesn't apply in the Stark-Tully marriage. All the kids except Arya got Tully hair and no one questions who Robb, Sansa, Bran & Rickon's father is. Also, as someone on this site pointed out a while ago (I'm sorry I don't remember who), when Targs marry outside their own the first child tends to have the features of the other parent and the other children tend to have Targ features. So assuming RLJ is true Jon looks would follow that pattern.

This. If Rhaegar and Lyanna lived and had another child along with Jon, that child would likely have looked more Targearyn. Then no one would have doubted who Jon's father was. And also, for plot line. If Jon came out having even one 'main'  Targearyn feature (this means either the hair or eyes), then no way would he have lived as Ned's 'bastard.' 

But just because he doesn't have the Targearyn hair or eyes, doesn't mean he can't have the any f the other features. GRRM has approved artwork of Jon which portrays him having a regal, valarian nose (which is in the Rhaegar and Viserys a approved art work to) and high cheekbones- you know, the type of faces the Targearyens had. 

[zandru]

Also, the Starks tend to have "brown" hair. Common as dirt and coming in innumerable shades. Even the Tully's (auburn) is a variety of "brown". It's the lines with the extreme, and thus distinctive, hair color - blonde Lannisters, silver-haired Valyrian stock, and true-breeding black Baratheon hair - that are used to suggest parentage in the plotline.

[H Wadsworth Longfellow]

13 hours ago, Pacala said:

how come Jon being Rhaegar son still standing when we know George Martin use hair to authentificate parentage ?

It's not just his hair color.  It's his long face.  His face is weirdly long that even at first glance people know he's a Stark.  His northern look is so pronounced that it is likely both his parents are of the north. 

[Ygrain]

4 hours ago, Green-Lipped Mussel said:

His northern look is so pronounced that it is likely both his parents are of the north. 

So Arya is Ned's clone with a chromosome X and Cat was used only as a vessel? Because she looks like Jon and one of her parents sure as hell isn't of the north.

[Pacala]

20 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Here's how this "parentage" thing works: here's one parent, called "father", and another parent, called "mother". One can inherit stuff from either of them.

Here`s how Martin "parentage" story works (seems to me the seeds from father side is stronger, except Starks):

Robert black hair

Cercei dead son black hair

Jaimie blonde hair

Cercei kids blonde hair

Jon Aryn blonde hair

Littlefinger dark hair

Robin dark hair

Ned Star dark brown hair

Catelyn kids auburn hair.

Arya dark brown hair

Rhaegar silver hair

Jon dark brown hair

according to Ned theory from "The Lineages and Histories of the Great Houses of the Seven Kingdoms" Cericei kids are all Lannister bastards but hes kids are Starks.

For some reason N<C= posible, Rh<L= posible but R<C= imposible. And in all the cases we have strong womens

correction it dosent aply to Ned not starks

[Prof. Cecily]

48 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

 

Maybe less surprising when you remember that Sam didn't participate in the conception (Gilly was already pregnant when he met her).

Precisely the point- poor Ned is hopelessly out of the loop.

[WeKnowNothing]

I imagine the genes according to families work something like this:

Baratheon > Tully > Lannister > Martell > Stark > Targearyen

So in reality there children would have to be:

Robert/Cersei - All Baratheon, black hair blue eyes. This is why Ned compares Roberts bastards with Cersei's three with Jaime. Because they should all look Baratheon.

Jaime/Cersei - all Lannister, blonde hair and green eyes. Which proves this incest.

Ned/Cat - all mostly Tully, all Arburn hair and blue eyes. Though the stark genes seem to have won over at one point, because one of their children was born looking Stark.

Rhaegar/Elia - their first child looked Dornish and their second child looked Targearyen, which follows the pattern of the first child (if no incest) always looking more non-Targaeryen. 

Rhaegar/Lyanna - as we know, Jon looks more Stark, as he is Rhaegar's first child with Lyanna, just like how his first child with Elia looked more Dornish. So if we follow the pattern of Targearyen genetics, Rhaegar and Lyanna's second child would have looked more Targaeryen.

 

[Pacala]

1 hour ago, WeKnowNothing said:

I imagine the genes according to families work something like this:

Baratheon > Tully > Lannister > Martell > Stark > Targearyen

So in reality there children would have to be:

Robert/Cersei - All Baratheon, black hair blue eyes. This is why Ned compares Roberts bastards with Cersei's three with Jaime. Because they should all look Baratheon.

Jaime/Cersei - all Lannister, blonde hair and green eyes. Which proves this incest.

Ned/Cat - all mostly Tully, all Arburn hair and blue eyes. Though the stark genes seem to have won over at one point, because one of their children was born looking Stark.

Rhaegar/Elia - their first child looked Dornish and their second child looked Targearyen, which follows the pattern of the first child (if no incest) always looking more non-Targaeryen. 

Rhaegar/Lyanna - as we know, Jon looks more Stark, as he is Rhaegar's first child with Lyanna, just like how his first child with Elia looked more Dornish. So if we follow the pattern of Targearyen genetics, Rhaegar and Lyanna's second child would have looked more Targaeryen.

 

Robert>Cercei, Jaimie>Cercei, Catelyn>Ned, Lyanna>Rhaegar or

Baratheon>Lannister, Tully>Stark, Stark>Targaryen

Tyrion=Sansa if Tyrion Lannister

following that line all the Starks gonna look like half Tuly half Lannister

If Tyrion Targaryen

Sansa>Tyrion and all Stark gonna look like Tully

[Wolfgirly]

1 hour ago, WeKnowNothing said:

I imagine the genes according to families work something like this:

Baratheon > Tully > Lannister > Martell > Stark > Targearyen

So in reality there children would have to be:

Robert/Cersei - All Baratheon, black hair blue eyes. This is why Ned compares Roberts bastards with Cersei's three with Jaime. Because they should all look Baratheon.

Jaime/Cersei - all Lannister, blonde hair and green eyes. Which proves this incest.

Ned/Cat - all mostly Tully, all Arburn hair and blue eyes. Though the stark genes seem to have won over at one point, because one of their children was born looking Stark.

Rhaegar/Elia - their first child looked Dornish and their second child looked Targearyen, which follows the pattern of the first child (if no incest) always looking more non-Targaeryen. 

Rhaegar/Lyanna - as we know, Jon looks more Stark, as he is Rhaegar's first child with Lyanna, just like how his first child with Elia looked more Dornish. So if we follow the pattern of Targearyen genetics, Rhaegar and Lyanna's second child would have looked more Targaeryen.

 

This seems exactly true but Arya is the only child of Ned and Cat who looks like Ned. All the others look like Cat. Jon resembles his mother Lyanna and also his uncle Ned (sort of a relief because if he inherited his father Rhaegar's looks, Robert would've killed him). Anyway on my last point, what would Robert have done to Ned if he found out about Jon?

[Helikzhan]

2 hours ago, WeKnowNothing said:

Baratheon > Tully > Lannister > Martell > Stark > Targearyen

Yep, that's my thought process as well. The Baratheon genes are strong. Hence, Jon Arryn stating the seed is strong. Regardless of what woman King Robert chose to bed they all had children of black hair. No doubt this means Baratheon genes suppress most others. 

[WeKnowNothing]

1 hour ago, Pacala said:

Robert>Cercei, Jaimie>Cercei, Catelyn>Ned, Lyanna>Rhaegar or

Baratheon>Lannister, Tully>Stark, Stark>Targaryen

Tyrion=Sansa if Tyrion Lannister

following that line all the Starks gonna look like half Tuly half Lannister

If Tyrion Targaryen

Sansa>Tyrion and all Stark gonna look like Tully

The problem with figuring the looks of a child born to Sansa and Tyrion is that we don't yet know if Tully > Lannister, or Lannister >Tully. There has been no marriages between the Lannisters and the Tullys EVER in the history of Westeros (well, Jaime and Lysa were supposed to happen), so we don't have any descriptions of the appereances of any such children born from these unions. So just doing guesswork and speculating will do us no good, not until we get proof.

[WeKnowNothing]

1 hour ago, Wolfgirly said:

This seems exactly true but Arya is the only child of Ned and Cat who looks like Ned. All the others look like Cat. Jon resembles his mother Lyanna and also his uncle Ned (sort of a relief because if he inherited his father Rhaegar's looks, Robert would've killed him). Anyway on my last point, what would Robert have done to Ned if he found out about Jon?

He would have flown into a rage and called for Ned's death on order for treason. Jon would be considered an abomination born of rape because his father Rhaegar had dared to abduct and rape Lyanna. Though interestingly, even if Robert knew Jon was a child born out of Rhaegar and Lyanna's love, Jon still would have been killed because Roberts ego would not allow him to believe Lyanna could have fallen for another man.

So whether Rhaegar had raped or loved Lyanna, Jon would still end up dead in both cases. Say if in one scenario Robert leaves him to live, who's to stop the Lannisters from trying to kill Jon? I doubt Jon would have made it past his 3rd name-day if the Tywin knew he was the son of Rhaegar.

[Pacala]

5 minutes ago, WeKnowNothing said:

The problem with figuring the looks of a child born to Sansa and Tyrion is that we don't yet know if Tully > Lannister, or Lannister >Tully. There has been no marriages between the Lannisters and the Tullys EVER in the history of Westeros (well, Jaime and Lysa were supposed to happen), so we don't have any descriptions of the appereances of any such children born from these unions. So just doing guesswork and speculating will do us no good, not until we get proof.

mother Tully >

mother Stark >

Targaryen father <

lannister father > if Jaimie father

if Robert father u have Cercei mother > and lannister father <

anyway u have 2 times mother > from Sansa and 1 time father > from Tyrion if hes a Lannister, if hes Targ then Sansa >2 times Tyrion 0

anyway followin the line with Lyanna>Rhaegar and Catelyn>Ned the Starks look should be long gone. But Rickads side is strong and that makes Ned theory pointles or makes him big wuss

[IceFire125]

53 minutes ago, WeKnowNothing said:

So whether Rhaegar had raped or loved Lyanna, Jon would still end up dead in both cases. Say if in one scenario Robert leaves him to live, who's to stop the Lannisters from trying to kill Jon? I doubt Jon would have made it past his 3rd name-day if the Tywin knew he was the son of Rhaegar.

Exactly.

But we don't have to even go that far...

Ned looked at the eunuch coldly. “You would bring us the whisperings of a traitor half a world away, my lord. Perhaps Mormont is wrong. Perhaps he is lying.”
“Ser Jorah would not dare deceive me,” Varys said with a sly smile. “Rely on it, my lord. The princess is with child.”
“So you say. If you are wrong, we need not fear. If the girl miscarries, we need not fear. If she births a daughter in place of a son, we need not fear. If the babe dies in infancy, we need not fear.”
“But if it is a boy?” Robert insisted. “If he lives?”

Noticed that Ned wasn't afraid if the child is a girl was already an indication, but it's what Robert said that added strength to my opinion, that Jon is a legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna more relevant.  Thus added strength in the opinion that the Kingsguard didn't really had to go to Dragonstone to Prince Viserys.  Because to them, the king was in the tower.

 

[WeKnowNothing]

2 hours ago, IceFire125 said:

Exactly.

But we don't have to even go that far...

Ned looked at the eunuch coldly. “You would bring us the whisperings of a traitor half a world away, my lord. Perhaps Mormont is wrong. Perhaps he is lying.”
“Ser Jorah would not dare deceive me,” Varys said with a sly smile. “Rely on it, my lord. The princess is with child.”
“So you say. If you are wrong, we need not fear. If the girl miscarries, we need not fear. If she births a daughter in place of a son, we need not fear. If the babe dies in infancy, we need not fear.”
“But if it is a boy?” Robert insisted. “If he lives?”

Noticed that Ned wasn't afraid if the child is a girl was already an indication, but it's what Robert said that added strength to my opinion, that Jon is a legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna more relevant.  Thus added strength in the opinion that the Kingsguard didn't really had to go to Dragonstone to Prince Viserys.  Because to them, the king was in the tower.

 

Rereading the books a second time always makes extracts like these very ironic. Because it totally mirrors what each of the characters, especially Robert, would do to Lyanna and Jon. Dany and her unborn child are meant to mirror Lyanna and Her's, and we as the readers are not even aware of R+L=J the first time you read it. 

And yes, the kingsguard staying, the fact that Jon was a healthy boy who lived, and Ned not being able to tell anyone, implies Jon is legitimate and he would have been killed as a baby if one of the major 'players' of the realm had found out.

[snow is the man]

aegon had red hair if I remember. The only time hair color really mattered was with lannister and baratheon and that was because no matter how many times the baratheons married someone from another family the hair always came out black and yet with cersei the three children are blond and look nothing like him. Where as the targaryens married their sisters and other relatives so it was hard to tell how strong their "seed" was