Builder(s) and Purpose(s) of the Wall:Collection of Evidence

[HighAndMightyBrightness]

While I do have a position on this, this thread is more of a systematic collection of evidence for greater clarity.  So let us begin.

Evidence for the White Walkers building the Wall to benefit themselves: the evidence is pretty scant:

1.) White Walkers are said to create highly beautiful and complex things out of ice. They appear to be masters of Ice.

Evidence for Men (and their allies of warm life) building the Wall to keep out the Others: the evidence is much greater in this case:

1.) The Wall is currently manned by men who seems to pretty much be the masters of it. Men patrol on top of the wall and the gates controlled by men are protecting the tunnels dug through and/or beneath the very foundations of the Wall.

2.) Building such a Wall requires high engineering to say the least. However, the Wall is not really White Walker-esque, if you catch my drift. Beautiful and complex ice should look something more like this.

http://images.on-this.website/4879_527693301505d15711be06.jpg

Yet, while high engineering would still be required, the Wall still follows the simple concept of blocks being added upon the foundation of Earth/permafrost. This speaks more to the ways Men control their environment; they may not be masters of every elements but they still can still usefully utilize the elements of nature in some significant level (compare a human made fire to Dragon fire; a human made fire is still extremely useful in daily life over not having any fire at all). The same can be said of the Children of the Forest, a group that seems very knowledgeable about nature in general. I would be surprised if they cannot manipulate Ice in someway to the benefit of warm life. The story told through traditions thus check out extremely well.

3.) Hidden due to being more speculative.

Spoiler

But why would Men use Ice to repel Ice? Actually, contrary to the implications of the question, this is very characteristic of human beings. Even in the real world, humans have observed that 'like' often repels 'like'. Electrons vs electrons/ protons vs protons are few very basic examples. Metal vs metal would be something would be a macroscopic pattern of this, easily observable in this case even for a feudal society. Think of how the White Walkers would invade. They can't seem to help themselves but to bring cold with them wherever they go or can't help but travel with extreme cold. Except that the Wall would be stronger on the White Walkers' side against them due to refreezing, and the humans would still likely be warmer on the other side (see the nullification of Wight magic; wights who could not travel to the other side without being in a coma)

4.)  Still evidence I think, but more speculative in nature.

Spoiler

The Children of the Forest -however- suspicious, should be on the side of the warm living. Even if they were the ones to create the White Walkers, building the wall would be their redemption. And indeed, there is a huge evidence that the Children helped built the Wall: the Wall is approximately 300 miles long, the same as the width of the Neck and the Arm of Dorne (both attributed to actions of  the Children of the Forest). They might have created the White Walkers a long time ago, but even the most idiotic Children should know by now that White Walkers are far more dangerous their precious Weirwoods than any human beings (trees burst and deface in extreme cold). It's true that the known Children do live on the wrong side of the Wall. Yet, their caves are warded against the likely servants of the White Walkers. Furthermore, all Walls need forward warning/delaying action of some kind in order to be more effective.

5.) Hidden: Still evidence but quite speculative.

Spoiler

The Wall was demonstrated to be made of salt water. As far as we know, Salt Water magic seems to be something White Walkers are powerless to. So if the Wall somehow collapses, there would be still a large puddle-moat of salt water between the White Walkers and the rest of Westeros. Such a simple but effective trick speaks to the cooperation between Men, Children, and Giants against a true common enemy.

_________________________________________________________________

As you can see, the evidences are very much towards Men building the Wall to keep the Others out. Still, it would be great if you guys can add more evidence to either side. Just state your position (or lack thereof) and add your evidence in.

Thank you very much!

 

 

[HighAndMightyBrightness]

6.) Hidden due to being more speculative.

Spoiler

This again point towards the second theory of Men building the Wall to keep the Others out. Can't believe I forgot about this. Perhaps the Others can call on a snow storm so that they can build a ramp to climb over the Wall. However, snow would also accumulate on the Wall and the Wall would grow taller until ad nauseum. If the Others were really the ones to build the Wall, that is a sad engineering case.

 

[HighAndMightyBrightness]

Bumped for the first and probably the last time. It seems like many people in the forum and without still believe in the case of the Others being the creators of the Wall. I would like to be fair and allow them to post any of their evidence I might have missed. Believe me, I missed a lot of things when it comes to fantasy research.

[Guilherme Rubira]

No mention about The Wall beeing a frontier, separating the Human and the Other's realm.

In this case, the construction would be the result of collaboration.

I don't believe this, but some ppl do.

[elder brother jonothor dar]

The castles and gates where built by Men and Men alone, these have been manned by Men.

The question is who built the wall, maybe when is more important?  If man built it it was surely done after the WW where defeated, deafeated but not destroyed.

They where pushed back far enough to build a 300 mile wall but if the NK story is true the WW where still active after the wall was built; also 3 blasts for WW is part of the watch's fabric, something so entrenched that they remeber it thousands of years later, which suggests in the early days 3 blasts was an existential threat to the wall

[Lord Wraith]

I agree the WW most likely had a hand in the creation of the Wall. Then history was forgotten or destroyed around the time of the Night's King. Neither Men nor the Children have the capacity IMO to create it.

I am fairly certain the Night's Watch has forgotten its true purpose but I am not entirely sure what it is.

[Helikzhan]

8 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

I agree the WW most likely had a hand in the creation of the Wall. Then history was forgotten or destroyed around the time of the Night's King. Neither Men nor the Children have the capacity IMO to create it.

I am fairly certain the Night's Watch has forgotten its true purpose but I am not entirely sure what it is.

 

According to Tarly readings the Andals and their septons recreated much of the history of the First Men in regards to the War for the Dawn, the Long Night and the Age of Heroes. Thousands of years after those events took place! The First Men only left behind runes and so much was left to speculation. With the septons writing about things like knights when no knights existed in the realm beforehand as an example.

The Night's Watch is an older order but nonetheless is manned by men of this era who have had their well poisoned by the Andal recreation. 

To me it seems plainly evident who built the wall. The Others did. Likely in their pact with the living under stipulations that today are not understood and may be responsible for the wall coming down. Why would the wall be necessary? To keep out wights and other creatures that may not be under their control. With the agreement void, the wall would come down and war would start anew. 

This would also explain why Nights Watch found north of the wall by Others are executed. To their side of the pact, these watchmen would be voiding the agreement. Contextually a lot of things start to make sense. 

[ReturnOfCaponBreath]

I dont believe the wall was built per se. I think it is a magical barrier laid down that effectively stops the spread/ passing of "true winter" from the land of always winter. So it's basically a 700ft high snow drift accumulating as the magic stops the cold passing any further. This is why In spite of it being ice it prevents the passing of white walkers.

I think it is a demarcation line following an age old battle between someone (the last hero?) and whatever lies at the heart of always winter.  

I think Winterfell is named after the place where the battle took place and winter was defeated, literally Winter fell. 

I think Ice was handed to the Starks as a token of victory in that battle. I have a vague belief that a lot of trouble up North is set into motion when ice is used to kill a direwolf but the obvious counter evidence to that being the prologue to GOT.

I think winter starts "pouring forth" from Winterfell In ADWD as so many collective events (no stark in winterfell, decline Of The nights watch, possible blowing of Joramun/winter horn) have weakened the magic to the point where winter can get through.

[GyantSpyder]

I don't want to leak one speculative topic into another, but I've always thought it was interesting and important that the Night's Watch is charged with cutting down trees that come too close to the Wall (too close meaning a half-mile, which is quite a ways), and that they've been failing to do that recently.

It reminds me of Tyrion ordering the burning of the shacks along the walls of King's Landing before the Battle of the Blackwater to prevent Stannis from making them into ladders or using them to get over the walls. Except that I don't think anybody is actually worried about 700 foot tall ladders or the Wildlings or Others building trebuchets.

The Night's Watch has two basic maintenance tasks for the Wall - spread some kind of grit or gravel over the top of it periodically, and cut down trees that grow anywhere near it. They've been doing these two things for thousands of years, and neither thing seems like it would do much against either the Others or other human beings.

That to me these have to be some sort of clues as to the Wall's original purpose.

[GyantSpyder]

Another topic worth considering - which way do the defenses on the Wall face? It is assumed they face north, because the castles are on the south of the wall, and the castles are relatively vulnerable to attack. But --

- The grove of weirwoods where the men of the Night's Watch make their vows to the Old Gods is north of the Wall.

- The weirwood Black Gate at the Nightfort checks to see if you are a man of the Night's Watch before letting you through by asking you to recite your vows.

- It seems reasonable the Black Gate is "checking your ID" based on the memory of you swearing your oath at the grove north of the wall. It's not like the oaths of the Night's Watch are a secret password. Nobody seems to make any effort to keep them secret, and they don't resemble a password in any other way. And Jojen, who seems like he has all the information he needs to get Bran to Bloodraven, doesn't say the words himself to open the gate, he has Sam say them - which suggests that the gate is registering not just what words are said, but who says them.

- If the Wall is there to protect the south from the north, why is its security system access point where you set up your account in enemy territory? This is like putting a computer with admin rights to access a company network outside your building on the sidewalk.

This would suggest that either something has happened to change the purpose of the Wall, or that at least some of the initial purpose of the Wall was to protect the north from the south.

[HighAndMightyBrightness]

3 hours ago, GyantSpyder said:

 

It reminds me of Tyrion ordering the burning of the shacks along the walls of King's Landing before the Battle of the Blackwater to prevent Stannis from making them into ladders or using them to get over the walls. Except that I don't think anybody is actually worried about 700 foot tall ladders or the Wildlings or Others building trebuchets.

 

Good point, but I think the trees can still provide cover (from sight and projectiles) to any belligerent forces against the wall. The Night's Watch goes ranging from time to time and I think it would be a good tactical practice to let approaching forces be spotted and analyzed before traversing to either side. Furthermore, trees can be used as spikes and rope (made of bark) for the wildlings.

[HighAndMightyBrightness]

15 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

I agree the WW most likely had a hand in the creation of the Wall. Then history was forgotten or destroyed around the time of the Night's King. Neither Men nor the Children have the capacity IMO to create it.

Not even with the help of Giants? And remember that humans create Wildfires even without being  completely specialized in fire. I don't think it is reasonable that certain deep Ice magic should be out of reach of Humans/Children.

The Wall might have even been too crude of a concept for the Others, who are truly masters of Ice and create/breed living Ice creatures like the Ice Spiders.

[HighAndMightyBrightness]

3 hours ago, GyantSpyder said:

Another topic worth considering - which way do the defenses on the Wall face? It is assumed they face north, because the castles are on the south of the wall, and the castles are relatively vulnerable to attack. But --

- The grove of weirwoods where the men of the Night's Watch make their vows to the Old Gods is north of the Wall.

- The weirwood Black Gate at the Nightfort checks to see if you are a man of the Night's Watch before letting you through by asking you to recite your vows.

- It seems reasonable the Black Gate is "checking your ID" based on the memory of you swearing your oath at the grove north of the wall. It's not like the oaths of the Night's Watch are a secret password. Nobody seems to make any effort to keep them secret, and they don't resemble a password in any other way. And Jojen, who seems like he has all the information he needs to get Bran to Bloodraven, doesn't say the words himself to open the gate, he has Sam say them - which suggests that the gate is registering not just what words are said, but who says them.

- If the Wall is there to protect the south from the north, why is its security system access point where you set up your account in enemy territory? This is like putting a computer with admin rights to access a company network outside your building on the sidewalk.

 

These are all reasonable since the Night's Watch has to be kept competent; having a known property North of the Wall means that the Night's Watch has to go ranging from time to time.

And the weirwood 'password' is more than a password. It requires a reaffirmation of oaths and let us remember how important and fundamental oaths are to the ASOIAF's universe. Seriously, serious oaths are protected by deep magic of some sort and would bring consequences against any entity known to have broken them. I doubt the Others  would swear to be  'the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers.'  The oath 'I am the shield that guards the realms of men' also seals the deal against the Others.

 

[GyantSpyder]

18 hours ago, HighAndMightyBrightness said:

Good point, but I think the trees can still provide cover (from sight and projectiles) to any belligerent forces against the wall. The Night's Watch goes ranging from time to time and I think it would be a good tactical practice to let approaching forces be spotted and analyzed before traversing to either side. Furthermore, trees can be used as spikes and rope (made of bark) for the wildlings.

While this is true, when it works, it involves deploying 10,000 men to cover 300 square miles of territory (nearly 200,000 acres) on a regular basis.

When it works, chopping down trees around the wall might be the single biggest public works or military project in all of Westeros. It might be the largest such single project in the whole world.

Meanwhile, we see multiple situations where sovereigns in their capitals have trouble managing what is going on immediately outside the walls of their city even when a battle is about to happen.

So it seems like a little more than a "nice to have." It seems extraordinary.

[GyantSpyder]

18 hours ago, HighAndMightyBrightness said:

These are all reasonable since the Night's Watch has to be kept competent; having a known property North of the Wall means that the Night's Watch has to go ranging from time to time.

While this is why the whole system still works, I don't think this has much to do with explaining why it was set up this way in the first place.

There's nothing in the training or other traditions of the Night's Watch to lead us believe that they think it is important for new recruits to go on their first ranging mission before they say their vows.

The Night's Watch members who worship the Seven don't have to leave Castle Black to say their vows.

And here, I think, is the kicker --

Castle Black doesn't have a godswood.

I don't think any of the fortresses of the Night's Watch that are south of the Wall have godswoods. None we've seen anyway.

Which is pretty crazy, because supposedly they represent a partnership between humanity and the children of the forest to beat the Others, most of the other castles in the North have godswoods, and we're led to believe the Night's Watch is on the same side as most of the other houses in the North.

The Nightfort doesn't even have a godswood. It has a weirwood tree that grows through a hole in the kitchen for some reason - the same kitchen where the rat cook murdered children and cooked them into pies.

So, the Night's Watch doesn't just cut down trees that present a strategic problem, they cut down all trees, even the trees you'd expect to find. And there's some reason to believe that when they don't terrible things happen.

The more I read and think about this, the more I wonder if the Black Gate is an exception, not the rule, something installed by the Night's King, and that taking vows to the Old Gods might even be something entirely new to any members of the Night's Watch and a corruption of their initial mission.

Putting it all together, the placement of the weirwoods far away from the Night's Watch castles, on the other side of the Wall, and the deliberate absence of other trees, really does seem to take on more than a tactical purpose.

[GyantSpyder]

18 hours ago, HighAndMightyBrightness said:

And the weirwood 'password' is more than a password. It requires a reaffirmation of oaths and let us remember how important and fundamental oaths are to the ASOIAF's universe. Seriously, serious oaths are protected by deep magic of some sort and would bring consequences against any entity known to have broken them. I doubt the Others  would swear to be  'the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers.'  The oath 'I am the shield that guards the realms of men' also seals the deal against the Others.

 

Here I think you're touching on something really important. Promises are really important. There are ways promises are enforced, some of them seem supernatural, while others seem material, social, discursive or political. I wonder how this actually works. Which oaths are magical and which aren't?

I wish we'd seen whether a Night's Watch member who didn't take his oath in front of the weirwood grove north of the Wall would still be able to get through the Black Gate. That I think would be some very interesting information.

And it still doesn't explain why Jojen needs Sam to open the gate, or fully explain why the Night's Watch vows that open the gate are shorter than the official version. Does the "deep magic of promises" need periodic updates to a database of some sort? Does it work by intent, or by the specific words, and why?

Or even why the Nightfort has a Black Gate at all when the other tunnels just have a regular door or portcullis. What does the Black Gate accomplish that a regular door doesn't?

Jojen knows he is going north to die, and he seems to be as against the Others as anyone (or is he?). He's not going to marry or have any children. The Night's Watch vows don't seem like they'd be anathema for him. There doesn't seem to be a reason not to learn them or say them if it's a critical part of this mission.

If what we're saying is that the Black Gate only works if you're an "official" Night's Watch member, that brings us back around - on whose authority? Why? How does the Gate determine who is "official?" The idea I put forth seems like the easiest way to explain it (that it's linked specifically to the weirwood grove north of the Wall, and is thus primarily there to stop something or someone on the south from going north), but I'd be open to other explanations, sure.

[Coolbeard the Exile]

Giants, children and men built the wall we have official artwork of it in the world of ice and fire book.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/thumb/b/be/Building_the_Wall_Chase_Stone.jpg/450px-Building_the_Wall_Chase_Stone.jpg

[Mat92]

31 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

Giants, children and men built the wall we have official artwork of it in the world of ice and fire book.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/thumb/b/be/Building_the_Wall_Chase_Stone.jpg/450px-Building_the_Wall_Chase_Stone.jpg

This is based off of speculation from the perspective of a maester of the citadel. The same book also states that white walkers are most likely myths (when we know they are not). So it's likely that a lot of the information put forth is factually inaccurate. 

[Coolbeard the Exile]

I am quite sure that that picture is independent of the maesters opinion.

[Jon Ice-Eyes]

Why are you sure of that?