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Builder(s) and Purpose(s) of the Wall:Collection of Evidence


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@GyantSpyder I really like your thoughts/analysis, and of others of course!

 

Very nice observation about the "password" regarding the oath of the NW. I can only speculate here that the weiwood/heart tree listens to the oath and checks the face of the Night's Watchman as the face of the watchman has already been registered upon taking the initial oath, therefore we have (by speculation) a live usage of the weirnet, working as voice and face recognition tool as well. 

The big mystery remains though, if NW men who have taken their oath under the light of the Seven can speak their oath to the weirwood tree at Nightfort and go past it. Or, does the weirwood tree/weirnet sees through the reciter of the oath and judges if the heart of the reciter is true to their words perhaps, independently if they have taken their oath under the Old Gods or the New? 

With the weirwood door being North, and as far as we know, being only one (why only one and not one per watch castle?) Does this serve a specific purpose for few or only one person? Was it meant to be used only by the Lord Commander of the NW or by the respective Commanders of other forts when at Nightfort, so that persons or entities North and South of the Wall would be sure that not another fiasco-abomination would ever happen again, just like the LC falling in love with a female WW? (By the way if there was one Female WW, where are the rest of them? Were Craster's ancestors required to provide male newborns in order to avoid another tragic love story like the Night's King had? 

As to the Wall, I am pretty sure that its real purpose has been lost, but it is certain that it required a lot of magical and physical effort. Is the Wall in fact a Tomb that is being guarded sideways? Is it another portal that can maintain a balance? With GRRM's Tortuga Writing Speed, I only wish to live long enough to read TWOW and ADOS.

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23 hours ago, GyantSpyder said:

While this is true, when it works, it involves deploying 10,000 men to cover 300 square miles of territory (nearly 200,000 acres) on a regular basis.

When it works, chopping down trees around the wall might be the single biggest public works or military project in all of Westeros. It might be the largest such single project in the whole world.

Meanwhile, we see multiple situations where sovereigns in their capitals have trouble managing what is going on immediately outside the walls of their city even when a battle is about to happen.

So it seems like a little more than a "nice to have." It seems extraordinary.

Not if it involves giants. If a conglomeration of Children, Men, and Giants can build the Wall ( even if it was - say - 'only' 100 foot high at the beginning) they should be more than capable of clearing the woodlands. Don't also forget the sheer manpower of the Wildlings - who were on good terms with the Watchmen from time to time (heck I have a reasonable suspicion that some of them were adventure-loving woodcutters employed and released by the Night's Watch a long time ago).

The Night's Watch had their glory days, and it is extremely likely that they used the surrounding woods for daily activities during those time periods. Of course, since they were in decline for a while, the woods should begin to grow back as you pointed out.

I don't consider, wood clearing (that did not involve the Weirwoods) to be anything suspicious in this case.

However, the rest of your points do make astonishing sense- especially after I have read your thread about a possible 'Possibly-Malevolent-Fungal-Deity' of Westeros. See my further responses below.

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GyantSpyder has demonstrated to me that the Children are probably not as benevolent as they seem. However, this further cements the idea that the Children, Men, and Giants built the Wall during 'truce of the Long Night' mainly to keep Others from coming South. In other words, preventing the threat of 'true' Winter seems to be the one, undeniable purpose of the Wall. This is in contrast with the Wall preventing people from going North because it seems to exist only for people's safety and not because it was the main function of the Wall.

This all goes back to the repetition of oaths by Samwell Tarley at the very foundations of the Wall. I've looked it over - and I do change my positions and suspicions thanks to Gyant and others - but some fundamental things seem to remain very much the same:

1. The shortened oaths are the very core of the Night's Watch.

2. The oaths are very much against the Others (unless GRRM is twisting words beyond any meaningful discussion).

However, I think the oaths also reveal the reason why the Night's Watch were so unforgiving of the Children: there was probably some compromise-sacrifice to the Other's involved. It is very interesting what these oaths can mean beside being against the Others.

'the fire that burns against the cold'- The people simply cannot accept compromise-sacrifice, but I must follow the deal for the greater good and withstand the cold hatred of (justifiably) angry people.

'the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers.'  And truly, if these people want justice, they must rise up on their own. I would die a happy man if my horrible duty do lead to some hopeful change and final uprising against the Others.

'I am the shield that guards the realms of men' - But while these people are 'waking up' I must protect their emotions from the horrors of sacrifice. I take all of the blame and hatred if discovered; I suffer silently otherwise.

Now I think I understand why ' Then pass' sound so much like an understanding reproach. The deed is horrendous but it must be done. The Door is probably the closest gate to the nine Weirwood Grove (meeting ground for sacrifice?). And this is why the 'children' (including Hodor) were prevented from going North before the 'seasoned adults' returned/waited to escort (Coldhands; Sam the Slayer).

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And this is why it was the most likely that it was the Children who built the Wall, not the Others. The show may diverge from the book, but the core plot should remain very similar. I don't think the Children are Mary Sue characters: if they were the creators, they must have lost control over the Others at some point. Heck, the Children even lost control with whatever they were trying to do at the Neck.

The Others likely do not have control over Salt Water. The Children have feats throughout recorded and oral history (The Narrow Sea and the Neck), and they demonstrated their power for the last time on the Wall with the cooperation of Humans and Giants. They do so because entire ecosystems will be wiped out with another Long Night. 'Like' often repels 'like' in nature, so the Children made a pretty safe gamble with their Ice magic.

But Humans were still understandably upset with the compromise. They still trusted the Children over the Others of course. But without any 'relieve valve', they cut down some more Weirwoods within the vicinity of the Wall as a reminder that 'the deal better work'. Some men can worship the Old Gods if they so desire but not near the domicile of the Watch.  I don't think any explanation is likelier than that.

 

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I am open to the opinion that the wall was built by the Others, with no gates in it. I assume it's GRRM making a point on how humans claim ownership of things purely by right of conquest, and how histories become blurred in favour of the conqueror.

The real conundrum here is that the 'magical' property of the wall, if it has been revealed thus far, seems to be... salt. While this explains why the Others can't just go around via the sea, it makes me wonder why they would build a salty wall they cannot cross in the first place.

Possibilities include:

1) The wall was built by the Others as part of a pact after the Long Night:

The Others were defeated and building a wall they could never cross was a part of a human/CotF/Other peace treaty.

Note: This one only really makes sense if the Horn of Joramun is some sort of general weapon (many have compared it to the hammer of waters) which causes earthquakes and tidal waves (which would therefore destroy the wall by coincidence).

The most brutal (and Martin-esque) twist on this would be that the humans and CotF proposed this pact already intending to occupy the wall and fashion the horn of Joramun without the Others being aware of it (enough to make a white walker quite salty). So they were basically forced off into a corner of the world where there would be no collateral damage and lived under constant threat of being blown up by the horn.

This makes further sense considering this horn was in the hands of the first King beyond the Wall, who seemed to have serious balls considering he set up a kingdom in the middle of Other-land just after the Long Night... maybe he had some leverage.

 

2) The Others were forced to build the wall before the Long Night:

The Others were basically created as slave soldiers and forced to build a wall they physically couldn't pass. In this case the Others probably used Gorne's Way to go under the wall when they originally went rogue and the CotF warded the base of the wall to prevent them from doing it again.

 

3) The ritual that built the wall consumed the casters and transformed them into Others:

The magic that built the wall was fuelled by a mass CotF blood/sacrifice ritual. Instead of dying they transformed into the Others and their lives are now sustained by the magic of the wall (mirrors weirwoods sustaining life and the Undying). In this case the Horn of Joramun could require a blood sacrifice of a similar scale to activate (like Dragonbinder), which explains why it wasn't the go-to option for dealing with the Others.

The delicious irony here is that destroying the wall would end the whole White Walker problem, but us clever humans would never knock down a good wall, especially when it's doing such a good job of keeping people out. Besides, it's our wall now.

 

All 3 seem plausible to me and seem to cast the Others in a slightly greyer light than 'absolute evil' which is definitely not the case anyway.

Of all of them I really hope it's number 3. Number 1 (with the twist) is really nice and backstabby but I just love the poetry of manning a wall for millennia when the wall is the source of what you're guarding against.

 

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1. The shortened oaths are the very core of the Night's Watch.

I had always assumed that the extra oaths were added after the defeat of the Night's King, who did pretty much all of that extra stuff. His defense was probably that he didn't break any vows.

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On 6/3/2017 at 1:24 PM, HighAndMightyBrightness said:

While I do have a position on this, this thread is more of a systematic collection of evidence for greater clarity.  So let us begin.

Evidence for the White Walkers building the Wall to benefit themselves: the evidence is pretty scant:

1.) White Walkers are said to create highly beautiful and complex things out of ice. They appear to be masters of Ice.

Evidence for Men (and their allies of warm life) building the Wall to keep out the Others: the evidence is much greater in this case:

1.) The Wall is currently manned by men who seems to pretty much be the masters of it. Men patrol on top of the wall and the gates controlled by men are protecting the tunnels dug through and/or beneath the very foundations of the Wall.

2.) Building such a Wall requires high engineering to say the least. However, the Wall is not really White Walker-esque, if you catch my drift. Beautiful and complex ice should look something more like this.

http://images.on-this.website/4879_527693301505d15711be06.jpg

Yet, while high engineering would still be required, the Wall still follows the simple concept of blocks being added upon the foundation of Earth/permafrost. This speaks more to the ways Men control their environment; they may not be masters of every elements but they still can still usefully utilize the elements of nature in some significant level (compare a human made fire to Dragon fire; a human made fire is still extremely useful in daily life over not having any fire at all). The same can be said of the Children of the Forest, a group that seems very knowledgeable about nature in general. I would be surprised if they cannot manipulate Ice in someway to the benefit of warm life. The story told through traditions thus check out extremely well.

3.) Hidden due to being more speculative.

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But why would Men use Ice to repel Ice? Actually, contrary to the implications of the question, this is very characteristic of human beings. Even in the real world, humans have observed that 'like' often repels 'like'. Electrons vs electrons/ protons vs protons are few very basic examples. Metal vs metal would be something would be a macroscopic pattern of this, easily observable in this case even for a feudal society. Think of how the White Walkers would invade. They can't seem to help themselves but to bring cold with them wherever they go or can't help but travel with extreme cold. Except that the Wall would be stronger on the White Walkers' side against them due to refreezing, and the humans would still likely be warmer on the other side (see the nullification of Wight magic; wights who could not travel to the other side without being in a coma)

4.)  Still evidence I think, but more speculative in nature.

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The Children of the Forest -however- suspicious, should be on the side of the warm living. Even if they were the ones to create the White Walkers, building the wall would be their redemption. And indeed, there is a huge evidence that the Children helped built the Wall: the Wall is approximately 300 miles long, the same as the width of the Neck and the Arm of Dorne (both attributed to actions of  the Children of the Forest). They might have created the White Walkers a long time ago, but even the most idiotic Children should know by now that White Walkers are far more dangerous their precious Weirwoods than any human beings (trees burst and deface in extreme cold). It's true that the known Children do live on the wrong side of the Wall. Yet, their caves are warded against the likely servants of the White Walkers. Furthermore, all Walls need forward warning/delaying action of some kind in order to be more effective.

5.) Hidden: Still evidence but quite speculative.

  Hide contents

The Wall was demonstrated to be made of salt water. As far as we know, Salt Water magic seems to be something White Walkers are powerless to. So if the Wall somehow collapses, there would be still a large puddle-moat of salt water between the White Walkers and the rest of Westeros. Such a simple but effective trick speaks to the cooperation between Men, Children, and Giants against a true common enemy.

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As you can see, the evidences are very much towards Men building the Wall to keep the Others out. Still, it would be great if you guys can add more evidence to either side. Just state your position (or lack thereof) and add your evidence in.

Thank you very much!

 

 

1: we do not see them make anything. Their blades are extremely cold, so cold shatters steel, but we have not seen a single structure that tey have built. 
1a: Yes, because men were one of the folks that built the wall
2:  Men and giants did the  building and the children provided the magic, like the wards in the ctof cave.
3: The ice vs ice issue is not even correct. The magic in the wall is what repels ice. The ice itself is a vehicle for the magic and the only readily available building material. Nobody is "repelling ice with ice."  That over-simplified view of the building is what creates most of the confusion about it. It is just a structure, the CTOF wards within is what stops the others. 
4: The "evidence is the stories, which have been correct so far. The Children added a key component to the wall. It is well known
5: Where does it say the wall is made of salt water? Quote or it didn't happen

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6 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

3: The ice vs ice issue is not even correct. The magic in the wall is what repels ice. The ice itself is a vehicle for the magic and the only readily available building material. Nobody is "repelling ice with ice."  That over-simplified view of the building is what creates most of the confusion about it. It is just a structure, the CTOF wards within is what stops the others. 
 

I meant more like 'ice magic' vs 'ice magic'. But yes, material considerations are also important.

Quote

5: Where does it say the wall is made of salt water? Quote or it didn't happen

As Bran passed beneath the 'mouth' he described a liquid from the Wall as being salty like tears.

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15 hours ago, The Dew said:

@GyantSpyder I really like your thoughts/analysis, and of others of course!

 

Very nice observation about the "password" regarding the oath of the NW. I can only speculate here that the weiwood/heart tree listens to the oath and checks the face of the Night's Watchman as the face of the watchman has already been registered upon taking the initial oath, therefore we have (by speculation) a live usage of the weirnet, working as voice and face recognition tool as well. 

The big mystery remains though, if NW men who have taken their oath under the light of the Seven can speak their oath to the weirwood tree at Nightfort and go past it. Or, does the weirwood tree/weirnet sees through the reciter of the oath and judges if the heart of the reciter is true to their words perhaps, independently if they have taken their oath under the Old Gods or the New? 

With the weirwood door being North, and as far as we know, being only one (why only one and not one per watch castle?) Does this serve a specific purpose for few or only one person? Was it meant to be used only by the Lord Commander of the NW or by the respective Commanders of other forts when at Nightfort, so that persons or entities North and South of the Wall would be sure that not another fiasco-abomination would ever happen again, just like the LC falling in love with a female WW? (By the way if there was one Female WW, where are the rest of them? Were Craster's ancestors required to provide male newborns in order to avoid another tragic love story like the Night's King had? 

As to the Wall, I am pretty sure that its real purpose has been lost, but it is certain that it required a lot of magical and physical effort. Is the Wall in fact a Tomb that is being guarded sideways? Is it another portal that can maintain a balance? With GRRM's Tortuga Writing Speed, I only wish to live long enough to read TWOW and ADOS.

The words open the door. That is it. Coldhands can open the door, but he cannot pass through 

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Come to mention it, blood is another salty liquid quite commonly attributed to powerful magic.

Ygritte does mention to Jon that the wall is built from blood (metaphor right? Right!?) and Mel does feel empowered by being near the wall - she bangs on about blood magic all the time.

Ironically if there was a giant well or 'bed' of blood running beneath the wall then Dany's blue rose vision in the house of the Undying could have just been the cryptic crossword clue for Lyanna in a bed of blood... Hold on.. wasn't there a deep well in the Nightfort? - in the kitchen?

Maybe the watch has to cut the forests back to stop the trees growing roots down far enough to drink the blood that powers the wall.

BRING ME MORE FOIL!

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