Daegon5585

[Theory] History of Aegons Conquest repeated

54 posts in this topic

10 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

And who cares if she's 10 years old, She is Head of the House Mormont. That on its own deserves a round of applause at her age and have the courage to stand there and talk some sense to them. You just dislike she choose to acknowledge a bastard over higborn. Bastard who did a lot, even if I do not agree with him running toards the Boltons army. People dislike when there is a lack of good female characters, we have a child actor who's knocked it out of park, and you're criticizing it. I guess yu have the right but can't agree with that.

Jon was loyal to House Stark, even as a bastard and did all he coud to save Rickon. Last trueborn heir to House Stark as far as they know. he showed courage, strength and bravery. They value this more than writing a letter. No matter if that letter helped them with that war. Jon, Sansa and Davos meeting with Lord Glover exactly showed that Jon understand Northerners far better than Sansa. She was arrogant by reminding Lord Glover that his loyalty is with House Stark, when it fact Robb sadly made a tons of mistakes and what Lord Glover said, well we can't argue with that. Sansa has to rediscover her roots to the North, then she will be ready and worthy of ruling.

It doesn't. What Jon did is something they value a lot more. Bravery, strength, courage, willingness to sacrifice himself for Rickon. If Jon just stood there and watched, as a bastard they might not look at him this way.

Smallfolk don't care for the games of high Lords, they care for their own lives. Lords should have done somethig but then Cersei by what she did to the Tyrells, High Sparrow showed her power.

There should have been a debate at some point about it. As a big fan of the North, this is something that matter to them in the books but I guess not on the show. I do prefr the books the North plot than show's but it's up to everyone's opinion.

I don't say what I say because I hate Jon or people who support him. I say it because I think it didn't make sense. Wow, I should agree with a character because she is female and the child actor is talented? :eek: 

and of course you don't have to agree with anything I say, that's the point of these discussions, that we don't agree and share our different views, right? 

I will never agree that Cersei's or Jon's rise to power made sense at it was portrayed, because I don't think it did. But if someone did and enjoyed the scenes, good for them. Each to their own. :dunno: 

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12 minutes ago, RhaenysB said:

I don't say what I say because I hate Jon or people who support him. I say it because I think it didn't make sense. Wow, I should agree with a character because she is female and the child actor is talented? :eek: 

and of course you don't have to agree with anything I say, that's the point of these discussions, that we don't agree and share our different views, right? 

I will never agree that Cersei's or Jon's rise to power made sense at it was portrayed, because I don't think it did. But if someone did and enjoyed the scenes, good for them. Each to their own. :dunno: 

I said you dislike it because the choose bastard over higborn. Tthey're not into people who manipulate others, who play games, they like warriors, honorable people. For sure Sansa being less Stark-ish might be an advantage but not with them.

Cersei outsmarted her enemies and it looks amazing the whole sequence + soundtrack to it. Same with Jon, they needed to make them Queen and King so story can move on.

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16 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

The incoherent things that really annoyed me the most though?  WTF is Varys up to and his motives.  Varys being the harpy would have made some sense to me - he was actively trying to help Robert and then Tywin kill Dany, he arrives in Meereen right after she flees to the Dothraki sea, he leaves on a "secret mission" right before she comes back, he has that strange scene with the prostitute who helped the sons of the harpy and he takes offense at the red religions support for Dany.  So after all this why in good fuck is Varys brokering deals in Dorne (and then sailing back to Meereen only to sail back to Dorne)?  Varys makes zero sense without Aegon.  Especially all those early season meetings with LF when its' just them staring at the Iron Throne, and the one with Oberyn when Oberyn asks him what he wants and Varys just looks at the throne and gives one of those suggestive Varys looks.

 

13 hours ago, RhaenysB said:

. He serves Robert's interests while He's still king of a stable kingdom, then he serves Tywin's interests while he seems to be the only one to stabilize the mess the war of the five kings brought about. When they are all gone and everybody is totally incompetent, he starts taking interest in Daenerys who is getting strong and influential in the east and starts backing her up.

@RhaenysB @Lucius Lovejoy  I guess I am confused by your statements.  Varys has been on Team Dany since season 1.  Albeit secretly, but a supporter nonetheless.  Remember the secret meeting under the Red Keep with Illyrio?  They were working to put Dany in a position of power at that time because they saw a coming civil war between House Stark and House Lannister.  Varys thought that Dany was the realm's best hope for stability and peace, after the dust settled of course.  RhaenysB, you were right on that one.  Varys does indeed serve the realm. I think all the references Varys made about coveting the throne was not to sit in it, but to put someone in it that would be best for the realm.  He doesn't makes his allegiance known to Tyrion until they get to Pentos, in season 5, but he has definitely been working towards getting Dany's butt in that iron chair since season 1...

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Posted (edited)

15 minutes ago, Jaehaerys Stark said:

 

@RhaenysB @Lucius Lovejoy  I guess I am confused by your statements.  Varys has been on Team Dany since season 1.  Albeit secretly, but a supporter nonetheless.  Remember the secret meeting under the Red Keep with Illyrio?  They were working to put Dany in a position of power at that time because they saw a coming civil war between House Stark and House Lannister.  Varys thought that Dany was the realm's best hope for stability and peace, after the dust settled of course.  RhaenysB, you were right on that one.  Varys does indeed serve the realm. I think all the references Varys made about coveting the throne was not to sit in it, but to put someone in it that would be best for the realm.  He doesn't makes his allegiance known to Tyrion until they get to Pentos, in season 5, but he has definitely been working towards getting Dany's butt in that iron chair since season 1...

His actions speak differently. It looked like at that point that they're working on FAegon like in the books. Planned assassination on her and only Jorah did saved her because he had a hunch about it.

Later on it was clear Varys is pro Dany, when we knew FAegon storyline won't be implemented on the show. Not always as clear as you make it out to be.

Edited by Lord Friendzone

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1 hour ago, RhaenysB said:

I don't say what I say because I hate Jon or people who support him. I say it because I think it didn't make sense. Wow, I should agree with a character because she is female and the child actor is talented? :eek: 

and of course you don't have to agree with anything I say, that's the point of these discussions, that we don't agree and share our different views, right? 

I will never agree that Cersei's or Jon's rise to power made sense at it was portrayed, because I don't think it did. But if someone did and enjoyed the scenes, good for them. Each to their own. :dunno: 

I think Jon's rise makes perfect sense, minus the whole exclusion of "The Conversation" which I am now calling it.  The show doesn't address his being in the North in brown furs and fighting for House Stark, but I'm guessing TWOW will.  But Cersei's rise makes absolutely ZERO sense.  First of all, she wasn't the Queen at the time, Margaery was. She wasn't a Baratheon either.  So if she wasn't the Queen, and she wasn't a Baratheon, she literally has no claim to the throne whatsoever. So other than the fact that she just decided to sit down and make herself Queen is just beyond me.  You could argue that Dany and Jon are coming to dispute her claim, but still, I hate the fact that she just mae her self Queen and everybody outside of the North and Essos just sits back and lets it happen.  That's crazy to me...

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2 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

His actions speak difderently. It looked like at that point that they're working on FAegon like in the books. Planned assassination on her and only Jorah did saved her because he had a hunch about it.

Later on it was clear Varys is pro Dany, when we knew FAegon storyline won't be implemented on the show. Not always as clear as you make it out to be.

Ehhhhh it was pretty clear.  You just have to read between the lines.  He was helping in secret, so outwardly he still had to say all the right things and do all of the right things to keep up appearances.  Let me lay it out for you:

Season 1:  Varys meets with Illyrio, tells him of the upcoming war between the Lannisters and Starks.  He encourages Illyrio to convince Khal Drago to hasten his departure for Westeros.  Later, with his first visit to Ned in the dungeons, Ned asks Varys who he truly serves, to which he replied "The realm my lord.  Someone must."  We learn that Varys is a sneak, but a good guy at heart.

Season 2:  Varys and Tyrion meet and Varys tells Tyrion that Danaerys is alive and well and now has 3 dragon.  He makes the statement that once they are grown, her enemies will have nowhere to hide. Almost like he's bragging on the pony he has already placed his bet on.

Seasons 3 and 4 there isn't a lot of mention from him about Dany, but he does all kinds of things behind the crown's back to let you know he is a good guy, like meeting with Olenna Tyrell to form an alliance to try and keep Sansa ot of Littlefinger's grasp.  Keeps tabs on LF actions through Ros.  Also tried to send Shae off to Essos with a bag of diamonds because he realizes she is a liability and that Tyrion is also a good guy and an important ally.   Again, good guy.

Season 4:  Varys frees Tyrion and arranges passage for them to Pentos to meet up with Dany.

Season 5:  Varys flat out tells Tyrion that he supports Dany's rise towards the throne while staying at Illyrios' house in Pentos.  Tyrion is kidnapped by Jora and turned over to Dany.  He joins her company and once in, him and Varys meet back up in Mereen.  From there the rest is history.  Varys is officially on Team Dany through season 6.

I'm sorry, but the writing was on the wall the entire time.  You can't just look for the show to spell it all out literally.  It's a saga series.  There has to be some level of inference and drama implied...

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Jaehaerys Stark said:

 

@RhaenysB @Lucius Lovejoy  I guess I am confused by your statements.  Varys has been on Team Dany since season 1.  Albeit secretly, but a supporter nonetheless.  Remember the secret meeting under the Red Keep with Illyrio?  They were working to put Dany in a position of power at that time because they saw a coming civil war between House Stark and House Lannister.  Varys thought that Dany was the realm's best hope for stability and peace, after the dust settled of course.  RhaenysB, you were right on that one.  Varys does indeed serve the realm. I think all the references Varys made about coveting the throne was not to sit in it, but to put someone in it that would be best for the realm.  He doesn't makes his allegiance known to Tyrion until they get to Pentos, in season 5, but he has definitely been working towards getting Dany's butt in that iron chair since season 1...

I think the issue here is that Varys, like every other character, is rather inconsistent throughout the show, and that's why it can be argued that his motivations are unclear. I see Varys as something who thrives for stability for the greater as opposed to LF who wants chaos for his own good. But one does question that when he arrives after Daenerys leaves and leaves before she returns as if evading to meet her. 

1 hour ago, Jaehaerys Stark said:

I think Jon's rise makes perfect sense, minus the whole exclusion of "The Conversation" which I am now calling it.  The show doesn't address his being in the North in brown furs and fighting for House Stark, but I'm guessing TWOW will.  But Cersei's rise makes absolutely ZERO sense.  First of all, she wasn't the Queen at the time, Margaery was. She wasn't a Baratheon either.  So if she wasn't the Queen, and she wasn't a Baratheon, she literally has no claim to the throne whatsoever. So other than the fact that she just decided to sit down and make herself Queen is just beyond me.  You could argue that Dany and Jon are coming to dispute her claim, but still, I hate the fact that she just mae her self Queen and everybody outside of the North and Essos just sits back and lets it happen.  That's crazy to me...

The fundamental problem with both these plot points is that they aren't properly built up. They are based on nothing in the frame of the story, they are just thrown out there for the sake of dramatic And Cinematographic wonder. 

I don't like either idea. I don't like Queen Cersei and I don't like King Jon. But that it is my on personal problem, and beside the point. I don't have to like it. But it has to make sense. There has to be a buildup and a rational background within the story, a reason for why this is happening other than "it's so cool". Crown Cersei and crown Jon, just show me how and why this is happening. It would be especially important to address succession in a show that had previous storylines built around succession (entire season 2, for instance, Daenerys's entire claim and purpose). And - in my opinion - it is a serious case of ignorance to throw this out of the window just so we can cram not one but three dramatically satisfying climaxes into a season finale.

2 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

I said you dislike it because the choose bastard over higborn. Tthey're not into people who manipulate others, who play games, they like warriors, honorable people. For sure Sansa being less Stark-ish might be an advantage but not with them.

Cersei outsmarted her enemies and it looks amazing the whole sequence + soundtrack to it. Same with Jon, they needed to make them Queen and King so story can move on.

I don't dislike t because she supported a bastard. I dislike it because I don't see how a ten year old girl can call out grown leaders on their shit. Even in 2017, if my 12 y/o cousin went to the parliament and told the representatives they are shameful idiots who don't support sports and proposed to elect his football coach for PM, the representatives wouldn't drop their heads in shame and elect the coach because he helped my cousin's team win. That's not how shit goes. There are procedures, seniority and laws. 

yeah, she was so smart, a kid put a candle on top of some ideally located explosive. Thats the most insane master plane I've ever heard of. And yeah, it looks amazing. It absolutely does. But that doesn't make it any more sensible. 

Edited by RhaenysB

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Jaehaerys Stark said:

Ehhhhh it was pretty clear.  You just have to read between the lines.  He was helping in secret, so outwardly he still had to say all the right things and do all of the right things to keep up appearances.  Let me lay it out for you:

Season 1:  Varys meets with Illyrio, tells him of the upcoming war between the Lannisters and Starks.  He encourages Illyrio to convince Khal Drago to hasten his departure for Westeros.  Later, with his first visit to Ned in the dungeons, Ned asks Varys who he truly serves, to which he replied "The realm my lord.  Someone must."  We learn that Varys is a sneak, but a good guy at heart.

Season 2:  Varys and Tyrion meet and Varys tells Tyrion that Danaerys is alive and well and now has 3 dragon.  He makes the statement that once they are grown, her enemies will have nowhere to hide. Almost like he's bragging on the pony he has already placed his bet on.

Seasons 3 and 4 there isn't a lot of mention from him about Dany, but he does all kinds of things behind the crown's back to let you know he is a good guy, like meeting with Olenna Tyrell to form an alliance to try and keep Sansa ot of Littlefinger's grasp.  Keeps tabs on LF actions through Ros.  Also tried to send Shae off to Essos with a bag of diamonds because he realizes she is a liability and that Tyrion is also a good guy and an important ally.   Again, good guy.

Season 4:  Varys frees Tyrion and arranges passage for them to Pentos to meet up with Dany.

Season 5:  Varys flat out tells Tyrion that he supports Dany's rise towards the throne while staying at Illyrios' house in Pentos.  Tyrion is kidnapped by Jora and turned over to Dany.  He joins her company and once in, him and Varys meet back up in Mereen.  From there the rest is history.  Varys is officially on Team Dany through season 6.

I'm sorry, but the writing was on the wall the entire time.  You can't just look for the show to spell it all out literally.  It's a saga series.  There has to be some level of inference and drama implied...

Earlier on the show it looked like Varys simply wants a good ruler, He had no ida if Dany is what he needed and when he said if Khal Drogo must hurry to get to Westeros. I mean, Dothraki are known for pillaging. Is that what he wanted? Dany was in no way ready to rule, nor was Viserys. It seems rather inconsistent as @RhaenysBsaid it. I am arguing only that he has been inconsistent and much like other characters. He's a good guy at heart as if we can call him that or that he wants peace. Not always as clear cut.

1 hour ago, RhaenysB said:

I think the issue here is that Varys, like every other character, is rather inconsistent throughout the show, and that's why it can be argued that his motivations are unclear. I see Varys as something who thrives for stability for the greater as opposed to LF who wants chaos for his own good. But one does question that when he arrives after Daenerys leaves and leaves before she returns as if evading to meet her.

Pretty much this.

Quote

I don't dislike t because she supported a bastard. I dislike it because I don't see how a ten year old girl can call out grown leaders on their shit. Even in 2017, if my 12 y/o cousin went to the parliament and told the representatives they are shameful idiots who don't support sports and proposed to elect his football coach for PM, the representatives wouldn't drop their heads in shame and elect the coach because he helped my cousin's team win. That's not how shit goes. There are procedures, seniority and laws. 

yeah, she was so smart, a kid put a candle on top of some ideally located explosive. Thats the most insane master plane I've ever heard of. And yeah, it looks amazing. It absolutely does. But that doesn't make it any more sensible. 

I told you that Lyanna Mormont is the Head of the House Mornont, well respected House in the North, she did backed up the Starks where as other come later on. If it ws older grown man, he'd do the same. Glover, Manderly and other needed to hear that.

She's no genius but her planned worked. Not like first time some characters acted dumb in a way on the show or in the books. It was a bold move from her and it paid off.

Edited by Lord Friendzone

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40 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:
1 hour ago, RhaenysB said:

I think the issue here is that Varys, like every other character, is rather inconsistent throughout the show, and that's why it can be argued that his motivations are unclear. I see Varys as something who thrives for stability for the greater as opposed to LF who wants chaos for his own good. But one does question that when he arrives after Daenerys leaves and leaves before she returns as if evading to meet her.

Pretty much this.

@RhaenysB @LordFriendzone 

I honestly get what you are both saying, but to me, the points you use to say Varys is inconsistent, hence not obviously working with Dany's, or Westeros' best intentions at heart, are the very same points I think show he is genuinely good and out to do what's best for the realm.  I guess, when I watch shows or movies, in my mind, I'm always looking a the situation not just as presented, but also for what lies underneath.  Varys, from the jump, to me seemed like the guy that plays both sides of the ball.  Once I picked up on that, it was just a matter of figuring out which side he REALLY wants to come out ahead.  I have always been pretty good at guessing what twist is about to come in movies or shows.  Like letting someone know, "Oh I bet he/she is really [fill in the blank]" or "I bet [fill in the blank] is going to happen."  I just figured Varys out very early on.  Just like it was clear that Littlefinger was a snake in the grass.  It's funny [email protected] mentioned that the 2 of them are a great pair of contrasting characters.  I agree and have always thought that.  From season 1 I could tell that they both play both sides.  They both are willing to do what needs to be done to achieve their goals.  They both smile in the faces of people, then stab them in the back.  Yet, I also knew from the get go that while they are essentially the same person, Varys was on the good side of things, and Littlefinger on the bad.  As Varys told Olenna Tyrell, Littlefinger would burn the entire realm down if it meant he could be king of the ashes.  I recognized this very early on.  So my apologies, it may not have been that obvious to most.  But it was definitely obvious to me.  I think maybe I just have an extraordinary bullshit meter and can tell truth from fake.  I've always been that way, even with fictional characters... 

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54 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Earlier on the show it looked like Varys simply wants a good ruler, He had no ida if Dany is what he needed and when he said if Khal Drogo must hurry to get to Westeros. I mean, Dothraki are known for pillaging. Is that what he wanted? Dany was in no way ready to rule, nor was Viserys. It seems rather inconsistent as @RhaenysBsaid it. I am arguing only that he has been inconsistent and much like other characters. He's a good guy at heart as if we can call him that or that he wants peace. Not always as clear cut.

Pretty much this.

I told you that Lyanna Mormont is the Head of the House Mornont, well respected House in the North, she did backed up the Starks where as other come later on. If it ws older grown man, he'd do the same. Glover, Manderly and other needed to hear that.

She's no genius but her planned worked. Not like first time some characters acted dumb in a way on the show or in the books. It was a bold move from her and it paid off.

Yeah, that made him seem like a random targ supporter. Then he said that stuff about the realm to Ned and helped Joffrey succeed which made you question what was going on there. And his bromance with Tyrion later was also a little interesting, and I know they started riding that horse because of the dynamic between the actors, but it was still a little odd what a huge fan of Tyrion Varys became. So yeah, Varys is all over the place like literally every single character on the show. 

You are going to hate me for this. So the representatives will elect the coach new PM if my cousin's mom and dad were representatives too? I think not. Sure they needed to hear that, but they didn't need to immediately do exactly as she said without discussing or questioning it. Like why? Because she is sassy and female and we looooove strong female characters...? Please... 

yeah, I would have liked to see explanation how it ended up paying off. Not much. Just once scene. One teeny tiny five minute scene. 

13 minutes ago, Jaehaerys Stark said:

@RhaenysB @LordFriendzone 

I honestly get what you are both saying, but to me, the points you use to say Varys is inconsistent, hence not obviously working with Dany's, or Westeros' best intentions at heart, are the very same points I think show he is genuinely good and out to do what's best for the realm.  I guess, when I watch shows or movies, in my mind, I'm always looking a the situation not just as presented, but also for what lies underneath.  Varys, from the jump, to me seemed like the guy that plays both sides of the ball.  Once I picked up on that, it was just a matter of figuring out which side he REALLY wants to come out ahead.  I have always been pretty good at guessing what twist is about to come in movies or shows.  Like letting someone know, "Oh I bet he/she is really [fill in the blank]" or "I bet [fill in the blank] is going to happen."  I just figured Varys out very early on.  Just like it was clear that Littlefinger was a snake in the grass.  It's funny [email protected] mentioned that the 2 of them are a great pair of contrasting characters.  I agree and have always thought that.  From season 1 I could tell that they both play both sides.  They both are willing to do what needs to be done to achieve their goals.  They both smile in the faces of people, then stab them in the back.  Yet, I also knew from the get go that while they are essentially the same person, Varys was on the good side of things, and Littlefinger on the bad.  As Varys told Olenna Tyrell, Littlefinger would burn the entire realm down if it meant he could be king of the ashes.  I recognized this very early on.  So my apologies, it may not have been that obvious to most.  But it was definitely obvious to me.  I think maybe I just have an extraordinary bullshit meter and can tell truth from fake.  I've always been that way, even with fictional characters... 

I do think Varys is genuinely good too, he is just kinda messy and it's difficult to follow along without questioning that when he does something that's inconsistent with what he did before. 

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48 minutes ago, RhaenysB said:

I do think Varys is genuinely good too, he is just kinda messy and it's difficult to follow along without questioning that when he does something that's inconsistent with what he did before. 

I can see that.  I just think the inconsistencies are what keep Varys in the game.  One action seems to contradict another, but I think that is because we are getting to see all his actions from the outside looking in.  We are getting to see what moves he has to make to not give away his real intentions to those that he wishes to hide them from...

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3 hours ago, RhaenysB said:

You are going to hate me for this. So the representatives will elect the coach new PM if my cousin's mom and dad were representatives too? I think not. Sure they needed to hear that, but they didn't need to immediately do exactly as she said without discussing or questioning it. Like why? Because she is sassy and female and we looooove strong female characters...? Please... 

yeah, I would have liked to see explanation how it ended up paying off. Not much. Just once scene. One teeny tiny five minute scene. 

Weird reference. Anyone in her position would insult them because they did not backed tha Starks when they needed them.

She killed Sparrows, eliminating all the main Lords opposing her, the Tyrells. Your explanation of this move.

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I mostly agree with what @RhaenysB has been saying here regarding the Varys debate.  @Lord Friendzonehad a few good points too.  Interesting discussion, but I think that Varys has been inconsistently written.

Here are some questions for you - do you think Varys was aware of Olenna and LF's plan to kill Joffrey?  Do you think he condoned it?  Also, it was Varys who brought Shae back to court in Kings Landing, right?  If only he and Bronn knew she was on a ship to Essos and where she was going then it had to have been him.  Unless we are meant to believe that show-Shae just wanted to be vindictive and found her way back to KL on her own.

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13 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

I mostly agree with what @RhaenysB has been saying here regarding the Varys debate.  @Lord Friendzonehad a few good points too.  Interesting discussion, but I think that Varys has been inconsistently written.

Here are some questions for you - do you think Varys was aware of Olenna and LF's plan to kill Joffrey?  Do you think he condoned it?  Also, it was Varys who brought Shae back to court in Kings Landing, right?  If only he and Bronn knew she was on a ship to Essos and where she was going then it had to have been him.  Unless we are meant to believe that show-Shae just wanted to be vindictive and found her way back to KL on her own.

I can totally see Varys being an accomplice in joff's murder. As for shae, her character makes so little sense, it's hard to tell. First she is Shae the funny whore, then she's the star struck lover of Tyrion and protector of Sansa, then she testifies against him without a single trace of remorse or sign that she was forced to testify and shags Tywin. Of course if Varys brought Shae back, it would have to undermine his great bromance with Tyrion so I would assume Shae was just randomly vindictive and randomly showed up or Tywin's people brought her back or Varys is a really shitty person and Tyrion is very stupid. 

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