Qhorin : Half a hand but a full badass.

[ReturnOfCaponBreath]

Just a quick appreciation thread for Qhorin, great ranger, great warrior, great leader. Shares some wonderful one liners of wisdom with Jon and understands better than seemingly anyone in the watch about their true purpose, enemy and the implications about the turns events are taking beyond the wall. 

 

Shame his character couldn't have stayed alive longer.

[kissdbyfire]

10 hours ago, ReturnOfCaponBreath said:

Just a quick appreciation thread for Qhorin, great ranger, great warrior, great leader. Shares some wonderful one liners of wisdom with Jon and understands better than seemingly anyone in the watch about their true purpose, enemy and the implications about the turns events are taking beyond the wall. 

 

Shame his character couldn't have stayed alive longer.

Capon Breath, is that really you? If so, welcome back, it's been forever!

And I agree on Qhorin, he's definitely one of my favourite minor characters. 

[Seams]

I've just been re-reading the Qhorin chapters and I think he might be a major character in disguise or a symbolic parallel of a major figure. (I'm thinking Jon's father. And no, I'm not yet a believer in R + L = J.)

Ygritte tells Jon the story of Bael the Bard, who fathered a Stark heir but then returned beyond the Wall. Years later, that Stark lord faced him in combat and slayed (slew?) him; Bael refused to kill his own son, even though it meant sacrificing his own life. Soon after hearing that story, Jon slays Qhorin.

I also see parallels between Qhorin and Maester Luwin, Qhorin and Shaggydog, Qhorin and the Dosh Khaleen and Qhorin and the pyromancers / alchemists. A really interesting guy.

[The Hammer of Justice]

I'm also a big fan of Qhorin, had he been lord commander instead of the old bear things would have been much different

[ReturnOfCaponBreath]

5 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Capon Breath, is that really you? If so, welcome back, it's been forever!

And I agree on Qhorin, he's definitely one of my favourite minor characters. 

It is indeed me, about 2 years away but inspired to come back by doing a re-listen in the vain hope it will conjure up the winds of winter!

Thanks for the note, it's good to be back.

[Aegon VII]

On June 5, 2017 at 8:00 PM, Seams said:

I've just been re-reading the Qhorin chapters and I think he might be a major character in disguise or a symbolic parallel of a major figure. (I'm thinking Jon's father. And no, I'm not yet a believer in R + L = J.)

Ygritte tells Jon the story of Bael the Bard, who fathered a Stark heir but then returned beyond the Wall. Years later, that Stark lord faced him in combat and slayed (slew?) him; Bael refused to kill his own son, even though it meant sacrificing his own life. Soon after hearing that story, Jon slays Qhorin.

I also see parallels between Qhorin and Maester Luwin, Qhorin and Shaggydog, Qhorin and the Dosh Khaleen and Qhorin and the pyromancers / alchemists. A really interesting guy.

What are your thoughts on him being Arthur Dayne?

Supporting evidence:

1) Jamie's comment about how AD could defeat the current kg with his left hand while taking a piss with his right. 

2) AD and Qhorin both have a line about "our knees do not bend so easily"

3) qhorin reflects on the fire comparing it to a shy maid on her wedding night. This suggests he is a highborn and has been to events like this.

4) Jon doesn't realize his sword even makes contact but then he sees a ruby necklace appear from qhorins neck. Rubies symbolize identity IMO and suggests there's more to qhorins identity than we know.

5) Qhorin=qhoran

6) dawn and star quotes: 

Dawn and Qhorin Halfhand arrived together.

Dawn had broken when Jon stepped from the tent beside Qhorin Halfhand.

They could see the fire in the night, glimmering against the side of the mountain like a fallen star.

 

[Ahl of the House Cutler]

2 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

What are your thoughts on him being Arthur Dayne?

Supporting evidence:

1) Jamie's comment about how AD could defeat the current kg with his left hand while taking a piss with his right. 

2) AD and Qhorin both have a line about "our knees do not bend so easily"

3) qhorin reflects on the fire comparing it to a shy maid on her wedding night. This suggests he is a highborn and has been to events like this.

4) Jon doesn't realize his sword even makes contact but then he sees a ruby necklace appear from qhorins neck. Rubies symbolize identity IMO and suggests there's more to qhorins identity than we know.

5) Qhorin=qhoran

6) dawn and star quotes: 

Dawn and Qhorin Halfhand arrived together.

Dawn had broken when Jon stepped from the tent beside Qhorin Halfhand.

They could see the fire in the night, glimmering against the side of the mountain like a fallen star.

 

Mance is Arthur Dayne

Qhorin is Oswell Whent

Tormund is Gerold Hightower

 

[Aegon VII]

5 minutes ago, Ahl of the House Cutler said:

Mance is Arthur Dayne

Qhorin is Oswell Whent

Tormund is Gerold Hightower

 

nope.

Very little supporting Mance as AD, despite what ootgh would argue. theres a ton supporting mr=RT however.

IF Oswell whent is  alive he's kettleback, 100%. Black humor and all.

Tormund as Hightower is possible but I don't really see ANY evidence supporting it. If Hightower is alive, I think tormund would probably be the best fit, but I just don't see anything supporting it. More likely I think Hightower is dead and we'll see their story picked up when haldon halfmaester reveals himself as Leyton.

[Seams]

2 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

What are your thoughts on him being Arthur Dayne?

Supporting evidence:

1) Jamie's comment about how AD could defeat the current kg with his left hand while taking a piss with his right. 

2) AD and Qhorin both have a line about "our knees do not bend so easily"

3) qhorin reflects on the fire comparing it to a shy maid on her wedding night. This suggests he is a highborn and has been to events like this.

4) Jon doesn't realize his sword even makes contact but then he sees a ruby necklace appear from qhorins neck. Rubies symbolize identity IMO and suggests there's more to qhorins identity than we know.

5) Qhorin=qhoran

6) dawn and star quotes: 

Dawn and Qhorin Halfhand arrived together.

Dawn had broken when Jon stepped from the tent beside Qhorin Halfhand.

They could see the fire in the night, glimmering against the side of the mountain like a fallen star.

I know that's a popular theory in the forum but I think it might be a false trail planted by GRRM, who likes to construct parallel paths for several characters - you might call them GRRM's archetypes. All of the father archetypes seem to be good with swords - or to have a relationship with a special sword - but that doesn't narrow things down much.

When I say "false trail" I should qualify that by saying I perceive it as false in relationship to Jon Snow; Arthur Dayne could be the father of another character.

The clues in the subtext have persuaded me that we should be looking in the north for Jon's father. I think Qhorin has a connection to Mormont or the Starks or the Free Folk or someone else north of the neck. (A free folk connection could explain the line about not bending the knee.)

In one of those links I incorporated in the earlier post, I speculated that Qhorin's remarks about the shy maid (Hmm. Another of Tyrion's ships) in the fire and about how pretty a fire can be are part of his parallel to the pyromancers. Get it? pyro = fire and romance = a relationship with a lover. So Qhorin thinks fire is a pretty girl and the pyromancers make wildfyre for a living.

I'm not sure that all high born people would think of brides as shy - given the custom of the wedding guests carrying the naked bride and groom to their bedchamber, I imagine brides could run the gamut from shy to bawdy.

Rubies symbolize "buries" IMO and I suspect that Qhorin buried the obsidian cache for Jon and Ghost to find. Jon believes that the dig site might be a grave, at one point.

I agree that there is a sound-alike relationship between Qhorin and Qhoran, but I'm not sure how that connects with Arthur Dayne. I see the Selaesori Qhoran as a symbol of Tywin Lannister. A deliberate parallel between Qhorin and Qhoran would tell me that we're on the right track in thinking of the Halfhand as a father figure, but I'm not sure where it leads from there. I guess you could compare the shipwreck and Tyrion's subsequent life as a slave to Jon's capture and subsequent life as a wildling. Maybe that's the author's plan for that hint.

There are a ton of scenes where dawn is mentioned so it's hard to use that as a marker to tell us that a Dayne is present.

To the Night's Watch, the comet represents Mormont's Torch. Jon jams a torch in the ground at the spot where he finds the obsidian to free up his hands for digging. This is definitely evoking the idea of the falling comet and the sword of the morning, especially because Jon then retrieves dagger blades at the location and makes a hilt for one of the blades for himself. The fact that Qhorin makes and carries torches for the trip through the mountain with Jon is probably related symbolism to this larger motif around the comet. But other characters carry torches at notable points in the story - I just re-read the chapter where the Hound escorts Sansa from the Hand's Tournament to the Red Keep, and he carries a torch until he stubs it out on the ground in the middle of a field. I suspect that the Dayne sword is one part of the larger motif as well, and not the endpoint of all falling star references.

But your guess is as good as any. Until we know more about the Daynes and about all the bear references that are not obvious references to the Mormonts, we won't know for sure. It would help to know more about Brandon Stark (the uncle) and Rickard Stark as well. Not to mention Lyanna . . .

[The Fattest Leech]

47 minutes ago, Ahl of the House Cutler said:

Mance is Arthur Dayne

Qhorin is Oswell Whent

Tormund is Gerold Hightower

 

As a symbolic parallel, quite possibly and I can agree to this, but literally, no. If everyone in ASOIAF is actually someone else, then that means there are only like 9 people in Westeros. George gives each main character a  similar ragtag band of misfits in their arc, but that does not mean they are literally the same people.

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 6/5/2017 at 7:00 PM, Seams said:

I've just been re-reading the Qhorin chapters and I think he might be a major character in disguise or a symbolic parallel of a major figure. (I'm thinking Jon's father. And no, I'm not yet a believer in R + L = J.)

Too had he's dead and we will never know 

 

3 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

*snip

none of this works. There were knights in Aerys' court that are now in the watch who would recognize Arthur Dayne  

[The Fattest Leech]

Hey there, I know you asked Seams about this, but I had a few thoughts to share as well.

3 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

What are your thoughts on him being Arthur Dayne?

Supporting evidence:

1) Jamie's comment about how AD could defeat the current kg with his left hand while taking a piss with his right. 

Talented, and ambidextrous. Sounds almost too good to be true.

3 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

2) AD and Qhorin both have a line about "our knees do not bend so easily"

This line is important to Jon's arc. The free folk, specifically Val, also says this, as does Meria Martell in the past when she rejects the dragon invasion in Dorne. Believing RLJ, Jon was born in Dorne, and what we have now between Jon and Val is a remake of the Rhoynish survival and the integration in to Dorne from past history. This is a very short explanation of this, but that is the gist of what is happening on page already.

3 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

3) qhorin reflects on the fire comparing it to a shy maid on her wedding night. This suggests he is a highborn and has been to events like this.

Possibly. But we have another Shy Maid that is used in a journey for another main character that happens to also follow the waters from Rhoyne to Volantis when we follow Tyrion's travels (as he documents his dragon knowledge). I think in Qhorin's case, GRRM is keeping with his same themes within each arc. Also, here we are again with Jon and the river/water imagery and historic Nymeria, which carries over now to Val and the free folk. Volantis is a personified city version of Jon. Seriously, re-read ADWD/Tyrion 7

3 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

4) Jon doesn't realize his sword even makes contact but then he sees a ruby necklace appear from qhorins neck. Rubies symbolize identity IMO and suggests there's more to qhorins identity than we know.

Rubies can be tricky in this story, I agree. Personally, I think the "rubies" at Melisandre's throat (etc) are the red dragonglass were hear about in other places. This fits especially with Mel IF she is related to Bloodraven and/or Shiera Seastar, or since she is just plain old trying to find a hidden dragon either way. We also learn that actual rubies in the story are the "legitimate" version of the "bastard" garnet- which Ramsay wears , and this makes me wonder if we will see Longclaw skinchange again from garnet eyes to ruby eyes. To me, it seems that in this case Jon stayed "true" to his duty and the ruby red blood was a signal to the readers as to what Jon's character really is like. 

I think Qhorin knew what was up with Jon with him being a Stark, maybe Q sensed Jon is a skinchanger/warg, maybe Q sensed Jon's destiny in some way, I dunno , but what did happen was the Qhorin was rather firm with Mormont that Jon was going to range with him (as the two are eating eggs, don't forget).

•  
  "He was a friend to the Watch." Qhorin glanced behind. "It is said that a direwolf runs with you."
  "Ghost should be back by dawn. He hunts at night."
• "Die," the raven muttered, pacing along Mormont's shoulders. "Die, die, die, die." The Old Bear sat slumped and silent, as if the burden of speech had grown too heavy for him to bear. But at last he said, "May the gods forgive me. Choose your men."

  Qhorin Halfhand turned his head. His eyes met Jon's, and held them for a long moment. "Very well. I choose Jon Snow."

  Mormont blinked. "He is hardly more than a boy. And my steward besides. Not even a ranger."

  "Tollett can care for you as well, my lord." Qhorin lifted his maimed, two-fingered hand. "The old gods are still strong beyond the Wall. The gods of the First Men . . . and the Starks."

   

3 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

5) Qhorin=qhoran

Yes, this is curious, but it seems that this is part of the carry-over themes George uses from arc to arc.

3 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

 

6) dawn and star quotes: 

Dawn and Qhorin Halfhand arrived together.

Dawn had broken when Jon stepped from the tent beside Qhorin Halfhand.

They could see the fire in the night, glimmering against the side of the mountain like a fallen star.

 

These could be references to the Last Hero tale, which Jon and/or Bran could be, but we also have many other broken swords as well (Ice, Titan of Braavos, etc). If Jon is the Last Hero, then this act with Qhorin Half-hand (broken) sacrificing himself to Jon just adds to the case that Jon is destined for something big, like being the shield that guards the realms of men. These other events have to happen first to add up to the end result.