How did a 15 year old Cersei convince King Aerys to Take Jaime into the Kingsguard?

[ReturnOfCaponBreath]

In the Jaime Chapter in SOS at the Inn of the bended Knee he thinks through the story of how he joined the KG in a conversation with Briene. Cersei hatches the plan and a month later it's done.

Tywin is not part of the scheme so it isn't done through the hand.

How did a young Cersei get the chance to talk to, let alone influence the mad king? Was it done through an intermediary?

It seems to make sense from Aerys point of view, deny a powerful house a capable heir and get a fine albeit young warrior in the kingsguard to boot but I was just surprised by the way it happened and hasn't quite picked up on it until this latest re-listen. 

 

Aerys must have also know or at least suspected it would enrage Tywin. Presumably he didn't care but it's still not wise to stir up the wrath of both your hand and Lord Tywin.

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, ReturnOfCaponBreath said:

In the Jaime Chapter in SOS at the Inn of the bended Knee he thinks through the story of how he joined the KG in a conversation with Briene. Cersei hatches the plan and a month later it's done.

Tywin is not part of the scheme so it isn't done through the hand.

How did a young Cersei get the chance to talk to, let alone influence the mad king? Was it done through an intermediary?

It seems to make sense from Aerys point of view, deny a powerful house a capable heir and get a fine albeit young warrior in the kingsguard to boot but I was just surprised by the way it happened and hasn't quite picked up on it until this latest re-listen. 

 

Aerys must have also know or at least suspected it would enrage Tywin. Presumably he didn't care but it's still not wise to stir up the wrath of both your hand and Lord Tywin.

Maybe she didn't have to convince Aerys... Aerys and papa Lannister weren't on the best of terms by then. And as Cersei tells Jaime, Tywin might get enraged but he wasn't going to be able to oppose it openly. So maybe all she did was say something about how angry Tywin would get if that were to happen in a situation where she knew Aerys would overhear her. 

[TheHodorThatWasPromised]

I think this is a case of Cersei taking credit for something that she had no influence over. Her idea of Jaime joining the kingsguard just happened to coincide with king Aerys II actual decision to have Jaime join. In her mind she might be convinced that she was responsible, but that doesn't mean that she actually was in real life.

[kissdbyfire]

7 minutes ago, TheHodorThatWasPromised said:

I think this is a case of Cersei taking credit for something that she had no influence over. Her idea of Jaime joining the kingsguard just happened to coincide with king Aerys II actual decision to have Jaime join. In her mind she might be convinced that she was responsible, but that doesn't mean that she actually was in real life.

I find that to be too much of a coincidence but we'll see.

[Lord Varys]

The best guess is that Varys set Cersei up there. He put the idea into her head and she then ensured Jaime would volunteer. Aerys himself wouldn't have come up with such a ridiculous idea. He was paranoid. Tywin's son would not exactly be a trustworthy bodyguard as he himself quickly realized after Jaime was his bodyguard. Somebody suggested this idea to him but it wasn't Cersei. Cersei wouldn't have been close to Aerys, nor would she - as Tywin's daughter - have had access to the king.

[ReturnOfCaponBreath]

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The best guess is that Varys set Cersei up there. He put the idea into her head and she then ensured Jaime would volunteer. Aerys himself wouldn't have come up with such a ridiculous idea. He was paranoid. Tywin's son would not exactly be a trustworthy bodyguard as he himself quickly realized after Jaime was his bodyguard. Somebody suggested this idea to him but it wasn't Cersei. Cersei wouldn't have been close to Aerys, nor would she - as Tywin's daughter - have had access to the king.

Reasonable, but why would Varys want it to happen?

[Livesundersink]

26 minutes ago, ReturnOfCaponBreath said:

Reasonable, but why would Varys want it to happen?

Most likely to use him as a hostage to ensure Tywin's loyalty

[ReturnOfCaponBreath]

But Varys isn't the hostage type and Jaime in the Kingsguard doesn't really give Varys anything. I get why it's good for Aerys but just not clear on how Cersei would seemingly be able to make it happen. She would have limited / no access to the king and if an intermediary was used the questions are who, how and why? 

Varys has been proposed but I'm struggling to understand why it would be to Varys advantage.

[Walda]

Cersei read the signs right - she had felt Arys malice personally, at the tourney of Lannisport, where he came to insult her as his "servant's daugher" (AFfC, Ch.24 Cersei V). She saw how he toyed with Tywin, how he hated her father and mistrusted his popularity and power. Taking Jaime into the kingsguard was effectively taking Tywin's family legacy hostage, and Tywin's legacy was the most precious thing to Tywin. It also robbed Tywin of what was shaping up to be one of his most trusty, capable battle commanders. If Tywin was going to plot with Rhaegar to steal his throne from him, he would learn that two can play at that game.

She knew that old Ser Harlan Grandison had died, so a new Kingsguard was required, and she knew that if she didn't do something, Jaime would be married to Lysa Tully.(ASoS, Ch.11 Jaime II) Now you mention it, it does seem a bit too neat for a sequestered fifteen year old maiden to think through and arrange herself. And Varys would doubtless have more powerful objections to an alliance between the Lannisters and the Tullys than even Cersei. 

I'm guessing it was Varys. We know that Cersei put great trust in him, in former times.

Quote

"Do you know why Varys is so dangerous?”
“Are we playing at riddles now? No.”
“He doesn’t have a cock.”
“Neither do you.” And don’t you just hate that, Cersei?
“Perhaps I’m dangerous too. You, on the other hand, are as big a fool as every other man. That worm between your legs does half your thinking.”

(ACoK, Ch.54 Tyrion XII)

[Helikzhan]

Aerys made Jamie KG to spite Tywin which resulted in Tywin retiring to Casterly Rock. Cersei had her own ambitions for keeping Jamie free of Lysa but all told it was not the driving influence. 

I suspect Varys knows Tyron is not Tywin's son. If that's so then it would add another motivation for Varys to be involved in the KG naming. With Jamie out of the way, Tyrion (a Targaryen by blood) would rule Casterly Rock.

[sweetsunray]

7 hours ago, ReturnOfCaponBreath said:

How did a young Cersei get the chance to talk to, let alone influence the mad king? Was it done through an intermediary?

Well, Cersei tells Tyrion that the first few years Varys made her believe he was the sole friend and ally she had in KL.

Varys wanted to get Tywin away from court for a while now I suspect. The hints are vague, but the world book speaks discourteously of whisperers and untrustworthy councilors without naming names since 273 AC. It's not unreasonable to conclude that Varys was hired as master of whisperers either before Duskendale or before Steffon's quest to find a bride for Rhaegar.

Combine it with Illyrio's remark that Varys danced the dance before with a Hand. I think that doesn't allude to the same Hand that got killed (Jon Arryn), but Tywin. 

So, we have Varys playing the best friend and ally for Cersei, and Varys having danced the dance with a Hand successfully before. What made Tywin finally leave KL for good? Aerys making Tywin's heir a Kingsguard. Cersei imo asked Varys for help in trying to get Jaime in KL and the Red Keep, sort of like Tyrion asks for Varys's help to get Shae into the Red Keep. Varys proposes that Jaime could be a Kignsguard. Cersei does her thing, convinced it's for her, etc. Varys proposes it to Aerys. Tywin takes off to Casterly Rock with Cersei.

No matter how paranoid and envious Aerys was of Tywin, I still think that Aerys also still remembered him as his best friend of his youth, and couldn't entirely let him go. Not even after Duskendale.

[The hairy bear]

I don't see why we discard so easily the fact that Cersei could have convinced Aerys herself. He certainly had access to Aerys, being the Hand's daughter and Elia's handmaiden. Cersei has always tried to seduce men to manipulate them, and we know that at 15 was already using this strategy with Jaime. And Aerys would be particularly receptive, her being the only daughter of Joanna.

I can see a short-sighted Cersei telling Aerys that her gallant brother would be a perfect knight for the kingsguard, and thinking that her charms and seductive gazes have actually convinced him. Meanwhile, Aerys would consider the political implications of stealing Tywin's heir, and go for it.

[Ser Leftwich]

Wouldn't Aerys hold court and hear what happened? Wouldn't there be a kind of after-action report to Aerys? It would have come up that Jaime, and perhaps others, was/were knighted on the field. Even doubly so, since Jaime was in KL. Aerys could have come up with it on his own and/or there would be court gossip, from Cersei and others.

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

13 hours ago, ReturnOfCaponBreath said:

In the Jaime Chapter in SOS at the Inn of the bended Knee he thinks through the story of how he joined the KG in a conversation with Briene. Cersei hatches the plan and a month later it's done.

Tywin is not part of the scheme so it isn't done through the hand.

How did a young Cersei get the chance to talk to, let alone influence the mad king? Was it done through an intermediary?

It seems to make sense from Aerys point of view, deny a powerful house a capable heir and get a fine albeit young warrior in the kingsguard to boot but I was just surprised by the way it happened and hasn't quite picked up on it until this latest re-listen. 

 

Aerys must have also know or at least suspected it would enrage Tywin. Presumably he didn't care but it's still not wise to stir up the wrath of both your hand and Lord Tywin.

Cersei had help but from whom?  We can go through a process of elimination.

• Varys would have advised against it.
• Pycelle is a Lannister man and oppose it.
• I doubt Rhaegar cared one way or the other.  He just wants to stroke his harp.
• Rhaella would know better and advise against it.

I am guessing Cersei whispered to the flatterers that surrounded the king and they in turn convinced Aerys to do it.

[purple-eyes]

Cersei is daughter of Aerys's true love Joanna.

we know Aerys did not allow Rhaegar marry Cersei, is it possible that he wants to take Cersei for himself in case Rhaella dies? 

 

[PrettyPig]

1)   She arranged to have Harlan Grandison poisoned in order to open up the slot...

Quote

Knowing what needed to be done was one thing, though; knowing how to do it was another. Jaime could no longer be relied on. A sudden sickness would be best, but the gods were seldom so obliging. How then? A knife, a pillow, a cup of heart's bane? All of those posed problems. When an old man died in his sleep no one thought twice of it, but a girl of six-and-ten found dead in bed was certain to raise awkward questions. Besides, Margaery never slept alone. Even with Ser Loras dying, there were swords about her night and day. - AFFC

2)   ...and then she seduced someone who had Aerys' ear and could influence the king's choice.

Quote

"Try not to sound so like a mouse, Sansa. You're a woman now, remember? And betrothed to my firstborn." The queen sipped at her wine. "Were it anyone else outside the gates, I might hope to beguile him. But this is Stannis Baratheon. I'd have a better chance of seducing his horse." She noticed the look on Sansa's face, and laughed. "Have I shocked you, my lady?" She leaned close. "You little fool. Tears are not a woman's only weapon. You've got another one between your legs, and you'd best learn to use it."

 

The unanswered question for me is whether she used the same person for both purposes, or spread the love around like she does in current story with Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack, and probably Moon Boy for all I know.

[purple-eyes]

18 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

1)   She arranged to have Harlan Grandison poisoned in order to open up the slot...

2)   ...and then she seduced someone who had Aerys' ear and could influence the king's choice.

 

The unanswered question for me is whether she used the same person for both purposes, or spread the love around like she does in current story with Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack, and probably Moon Boy for all I know.

If Cersei wants to seduce someone and use this person to influence king, it would be easier for her to simply seduce king Aerys. Her mother is the true love of Aerys. And Cersei likely shares the same Lannister beauty with her mom. Just like LF and Sansa.  

 

[PrettyPig]

14 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

If Cersei wants to seduce someone and use this person to influence king, it would be easier for her to simply seduce king Aerys.

Wouldn't surprise me a bit, and I won't rule it out.   The "someone" could very well be Aerys himself.

That does mean that she recruited a different person to assist her with the death of Harlan Grandison though - also not surprising, given that she's using multiple minions to carry out her plans in present day as well.

 

[sweetsunray]

6 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Varys would have advised against it.

Euhm what makes you think he'd be against it?

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

One way or another, she did it with  her mouth, I'd presume.