7 people are Azor Ahai

[ftheking]

Is this a widely held theory? I just thought of it myself, but I fell I must be the nth person.

Either Jon or Dany being Azor Ahi would be lame kind of a total letdown about the other character (at least for fans of said character). In Dany's case Aemon flat out told us in book 4, like thanks for the spoiler, mate! In Jon's case Mel keeps hinting, even before she might have gotten it we did "I only see snow". Not exciting, not original, not a twist anyone would be proud of.

Now those two could be Azor Ahai together, that seems fairer... but even puts a bit of cheese on the "totally predictable". I'm not a fan.

Now 7 people would be fairly exciting and it would be a good reason for there to be so many characters and POVs in the story.

IMO AA is:

1) Jon, duh

2) Dany, surprise

3) Bran - mythycal godlike savior figure on a hero's journey

4) Theon - godly in name, has the whole mythical Ironborn background and the dark twist of a Jesus story, tempted(only he took the bait unlike Jesus), tortured, mocked, reborn

5) Arya - also a mythical character, when you think of SEVEN people of any kind you can't help immidiately thining "Arya represents the stranger!" just fits

I'm not that sure about the last two. My guess is:

6) Tyrion - main character, one of the original big 5, him being a dwarf seems a nice touch

7) Brienne - pure maid and total hero, would just fit

But a point could be made for Sansa, Jamie, Davos....?

 

Anyone agree, disagree? (Sorry if that's the nth thread on the topic, didn't see any)

[Lucius Lovejoy]

They are all Azor Ahai.  So is Jaime.  So is Stannis.  So was Rhaegar...

My theory is that all of the prophecies are empty words and don't signify anything predestined or inevitable.  The power of the prophecy is in the believer.  If Jon is convinced that he must save the realm because it is his duty as some prophetic savior, then Jon will act to save the realm - if he is successful, then the prophecy became true.  If he isn't successful, he wasn't the savior.  Which is another way of saying the prophecies are bullshit but belief in them motivates people to accomplish great things.

So in that sense, I believe Azor Ahai is no one and everyone.  It is a person, it is a thing, it is whatever anyone (both characters within the world of ice and fire AND readers of the series) wants it to be.

[ftheking]

If you are right, than my prediction is that those 7 people will come to beleive they are Azor Ahai, act on it and collectively succeed somehow or come close to suceeding. (and I don't think Stannis counts as he won't be there for the showdown IMO and is just not a hero in this story, nor Rheagar) 

I can see that prophesies might be vague bs, but all the talk of AA must still pay off somehow, plot-wise. Just like Cersei must be killed by the valonquar, whoever that is, even if it's just a self fulfilling prophesy... Though I'm just thinking it would be kind of fun if she just drunkenly fell on her head... XD but readers don't like to much anti-climax and attempting to save the world is somewhat serious business in ASoIaF. 

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

1 hour ago, ftheking said:

Is this a widely held theory? I just thought of it myself, but I fell I must be the nth person.

Either Jon or Dany being Azor Ahi would be lame kind of a total letdown about the other character (at least for fans of said character). In Dany's case Aemon flat out told us in book 4, like thanks for the spoiler, mate! In Jon's case Mel keeps hinting, even before she might have gotten it we did "I only see snow". Not exciting, not original, not a twist anyone would be proud of.

Now those two could be Azor Ahai together, that seems fairer... but even puts a bit of cheese on the "totally predictable". I'm not a fan.

Now 7 people would be fairly exciting and it would be a good reason for there to be so many characters and POVs in the story.

IMO AA is:

1) Jon, duh

2) Dany, surprise

3) Bran - mythycal godlike savior figure on a hero's journey

4) Theon - godly in name, has the whole mythical Ironborn background and the dark twist of a Jesus story, tempted(only he took the bait unlike Jesus), tortured, mocked, reborn

5) Arya - also a mythical character, when you think of SEVEN people of any kind you can't help immidiately thining "Arya represents the stranger!" just fits

I'm not that sure about the last two. My guess is:

6) Tyrion - main character, one of the original big 5, him being a dwarf seems a nice touch

7) Brienne - pure maid and total hero, would just fit

But a point could be made for Sansa, Jamie, Davos....?

 

Anyone agree, disagree? (Sorry if that's the nth thread on the topic, didn't see any)

It's going to be a team effort and there will be strong resistance at first.  The bad blood that exists between the Targaryens, the Baratheons, Starks, Lannisters will be a hurdle.  I will even put the Freys on that list because the twins is strategically important should the north fall to the white walkers.  Many old wrongs like the red wedding will have to be forgiven to unite the land together.  I can see Theon, Dany, Tyrion, Sansa, Jon, Davos, Roose, Walder, Samwell, and even Stannis going along with unification.  Unfortunately, there are too many characters driven by hate that will have to be removed from the picture.  Sad to say this but Arya, Catelyn Stoneheart, Cersei, Littlefinger, Ramsay, Doran, Euron, Jaquen, the Maesters, High Sparrow will have to go before unification can happen.  Notice it's not always just the good guys that will need to buy in.  Even the bad boys like Roose and Walder will go along with it if it meant survival.  They may be ruthless but they're also smart men.  I think the question should be:

1. Will the Starks forgive the red wedding?
2. Will Dany forgive the usurpers?
3. Will Stannis step aside and forget his claim to the throne?
4. Will Roose turn his exceptional intellect to better use instead of skinning people? 
5. Can the Ironborn overthrow Euron and join the team?

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

5 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

They are all Azor Ahai.  So is Jaime.  So is Stannis.  So was Rhaegar...

My theory is that all of the prophecies are empty words and don't signify anything predestined or inevitable.  The power of the prophecy is in the believer.  If Jon is convinced that he must save the realm because it is his duty as some prophetic savior, then Jon will act to save the realm - if he is successful, then the prophecy became true.  If he isn't successful, he wasn't the savior.  Which is another way of saying the prophecies are bullshit but belief in them motivates people to accomplish great things.

So in that sense, I believe Azor Ahai is no one and everyone.  It is a person, it is a thing, it is whatever anyone (both characters within the world of ice and fire AND readers of the series) wants it to be.

I think this is half right. Yes prophecies, are for the most part bullshit and don't truly signify anything inevitable.

But the power of prophecy isn't in the believer. It is is the hands of the person sending the prophetic visions, and thus leading characters like Bran, Jon, and Dany to actions they wouldn't otherwise take.

So in reality, the Azor Ahai prophecy is mostly bullshit in the sense that the future is not yet written. But I believe that people in Essos and Westeros are being actively lead to believe that Dany and Jon are both Azor Ahai Reborn figures, and that Dany and Jon will rally the world to fight the Others in what will be a potentially tragic genocide of an innocent group of weird-looking people who live in cold underground caverns to the north. See: the link in my signature  

[Lucius Lovejoy]

1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I think this is half right. Yes prophecies, are for the most part bullshit and don't truly signify anything inevitable.

But the power of prophecy isn't in the believer. It is is the hands of the person sending the prophetic visions, and thus leading characters like Bran, Jon, and Dany to actions they wouldn't otherwise take.

So in reality, the Azor Ahai prophecy is mostly bullshit in the sense that the future is not yet written. But I believe that people in Essos and Westeros are being actively lead to believe that Dany and Jon are both Azor Ahai Reborn figures, and that Dany and Jon will rally the world to fight the Others in what will be a potentially tragic genocide of an innocent group of weird-looking people who live in cold underground caverns to the north. See: the link in my signature  

Thanks @40 Thousand Skeletons.  We actually may be closer aligned - I dont think that Jon and Dany necessarily believe they are AAR but if enough people believe it and expect it of them then they will act accordingly.  It may be that jon and dany save the world in spite of the fact that they dont believe they are aar and yet still are revered as aar.  All in the eye of the beholder in this case.

[Lord Wraith]

What no Ser Pounce on this list... for shame.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

48 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Thanks @40 Thousand Skeletons.  We actually may be closer aligned - I dont think that Jon and Dany necessarily believe they are AAR but if enough people believe it and expect it of them then they will act accordingly.  It may be that jon and dany save the world in spite of the fact that they dont believe they are aar and yet still are revered as aar.  All in the eye of the beholder in this case.

Well, I don't think Jon or Dany will necessarily ever believe they are AAR, we are agreed there. But I definitely disagree with the notion that they are "saving the world" from the Others by going down their current path. I think the solution to saving the world is to have children with the Others, preparing the human race for upcoming climate change. But even if that's wrong, the solution is definitely not genocide against the Others. That would not be cool. That would be super mean. I think the weirnet is spurring mankind along into war against the Others on purpose and using Jon and Dany as figure heads. And that is the purpose behind the AAR prophecy. To cause the battle for the dawn 2.0.

[Pacala]

1. Sam 0% skillfight 100% knowledge + whats the point of Hartsbane, Gilly learning to read and her Craster son (+leak about Gilly reading AA book)

2. Jaimie (Kingslayer) - book of brothers deed + i belive hes the story of ice and fire, u have 2 families (Stark and Targaryen) clashed and one love story traped in the midle + the event start when he pushed Bran out of the window, basically hes whole character arc from promising knight to redemption to unfulfiled hero deed

3.The Hound - tormented by the fire

4. Bran - mythycal

5. Jon - already reborned

6. Tyrion - dwarf (Froddo) - hero

[hitman47]

1.Tyrion

2.Cersei

3.Jaime

4. Bran

5.Gregor Clegane

6.Undead Rheager

7.Night king

[Lord Vance II]

12 hours ago, ftheking said:

Now 7 people would be fairly exciting and it would be a good reason for there to be so many characters and POVs in the story.

Is 7 just an arbitrary number you chose? I know it's a huge thing in the Faith of the Seven, but I don't think we've ever seen any connection between R'hollor or the Azor Ahai legend, in any form, and the number 7. If anything, 3 is probably the most associated number because he needed to reforge the sword 3 times. Besides, if these 7 people are working together its basically an avengers movie. 

12 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

My theory is that all of the prophecies are empty words and don't signify anything predestined or inevitable.  The power of the prophecy is in the believer.

Bingo. I think super old legends like AA are especially dubious, handed down for thousands of years and probably losing detail and context along the way. 

[Helikzhan]

It's little coincidence that the prophecy of AA comes from an ancient reading in Asshai that is said to be over 5,000 years old. Give or take a couple thousand since the war for the dawn. That long night stretched well beyond Westeros freezing Essos from the far north to Selhoru. 

I mention Asshai because histories do indeed get lost to the ages. 5k+ years is a very, very long time to endure nature (and humans) meddling with text and word. After 5,000 years most of the original context has been lost in Westeros and that's of little surprise considering the politics of the region. Asshai is seen as the ass end of the world in Westeros and its spellbinders are feared in Westeros for this reason.

My gut tells me that much of the history in Westeros regarding the Long Night has been tampered with. That quote from Tarly on the Age of Heroes wiki is pretty interesting:

 

Quote

The oldest histories we have were written after the Andals came to Westeros. The First Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later. There are archmaesters at the Citadel who question all of it. Those old histories are full of kings who reigned for a hundred years, and knights riding around a thousand years before there were knights

 

Thousands of years later, written by septons of a foreign faith with enough motive to perverse the history. Couple this with the fact the Others have been gone for thousands of years and you have a situation ripe for an enormous misunderstanding in the text. 

[ftheking]

5 hours ago, Lord Vance II said:

Is 7 just an arbitrary number you chose? I know it's a huge thing in the Faith of the Seven, but I don't think we've ever seen any connection between R'hollor or the Azor Ahai legend, in any form, and the number 7. If anything, 3 is probably the most associated number because he needed to reforge the sword 3 times. Besides, if these 7 people are working together its basically an avengers movie. 

Bingo. I think super old legends like AA are especially dubious, handed down for thousands of years and probably losing detail and context along the way. 

Seven is a huge thing in the faith of the seven, as well as Judasim and following that Christianity and following that European fairy tales and everything. Seven is never arbitrary it's just a big thing.

However I am actively combining the Faith of the 7, the Lord of Light thing AND the Old Gods AND the Drowned God, I mentioned all that (Bran, Theon). I would also say that I put the many faced god in there, but the very point of the many faced god is that he is all gods, or the truth behind all gods. Why would we separate these relegions? They are all parts of the same puzzle that is ASoIaF and even in universe they are acklowleged to be part of the same truth.

I'd definitely hate if the heroes of that story somehow belong to the worst religion, that's all about bruning people alive in order to clean them, ew. That's just one aspect, even if they happened to create the name "Azor Ahai". .

 

7 hours ago, Pacala said:

1. Sam 0% skillfight 100% knowledge + whats the point of Hartsbane, Gilly learning to read and her Craster son (+leak about Gilly reading AA book)

3.The Hound - tormented by the fire

1. Great point tbh...

3. Excluded him for not being PoV. Idk I feel AA, the prince that was promised etc should be a PoV or several.

Same for Ser Pounce

[ftheking]

17 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

It's going to be a team effort and there will be strong resistance at first.  The bad blood that exists between the Targaryens, the Baratheons, Starks, Lannisters will be a hurdle.  I will even put the Freys on that list because the twins is strategically important should the north fall to the white walkers.  Many old wrongs like the red wedding will have to be forgiven to unite the land together.  I can see Theon, Dany, Tyrion, Sansa, Jon, Davos, Roose, Walder, Samwell, and even Stannis going along with unification.  Unfortunately, there are too many characters driven by hate that will have to be removed from the picture.  Sad to say this but Arya, Catelyn Stoneheart, Cersei, Littlefinger, Ramsay, Doran, Euron, Jaquen, the Maesters, High Sparrow will have to go before unification can happen.  Notice it's not always just the good guys that will need to buy in.  Even the bad boys like Roose and Walder will go along with it if it meant survival.  They may be ruthless but they're also smart men.  I think the question should be:

1. Will the Starks forgive the red wedding?
2. Will Dany forgive the usurpers?
3. Will Stannis step aside and forget his claim to the throne?
4. Will Roose turn his exceptional intellect to better use instead of skinning people? 
5. Can the Ironborn overthrow Euron and join the team?

For me that's two different things. All/much of mankind/Westeros working together and the actual hero or heroes of the story. Our main heores clearly are not just stand ins for different fractions of Westeros, or we wouldn't need a dozen Starks, we would need one PoV from every kingdom at least and we don't have that,

[The Mother of The Others]

My deal is that Azor is a corrective action taken by the magical world..... It's a physics thing, fated, like how those volcanic hotspots in the Pacific are destined to create additional Hawaaian islands.   Azor is an emergent property, already part of the timeline (prophesied).    So..... the only unsure thing is WHO.  So the universe is trying to answer the question by planting seeds (people) as Azor candidates and having "signs" gather round each of them until one of them.... blossoms.  Until someone's spirit accepts the Azor role and grows into it, maybe by visiting a magical hotspot and absorbing its transformative energies (Daenerys in the lead at present, but with others like Jaime and Jon sniffing after magical "feeds" & sources of correctness.  

 

Now, you might still get "Azor by committee" if the person the universe tries to empower says no to it because they have a conscience, or whatever, so then you'd have the other candidates able to assert themselves as co- azors with salt signs swirling around them and some of the good fortune associated with being able to alter history.  I'd like that, if these characters actually realized they shared similar visions from the powers that be, and they should operate as a team of future- shifters.

[Dorian Martell's son]

23 hours ago, ftheking said:

Is this a widely held theory? I just thought of it myself, but I fell I must be the nth person.

Either Jon or Dany being Azor Ahi would be lame kind of a total letdown about the other character (at least for fans of said character). In Dany's case Aemon flat out told us in book 4, like thanks for the spoiler, mate! In Jon's case Mel keeps hinting, even before she might have gotten it we did "I only see snow". Not exciting, not original, not a twist anyone would be proud of.

Now those two could be Azor Ahai together, that seems fairer... but even puts a bit of cheese on the "totally predictable". I'm not a fan.

Now 7 people would be fairly exciting and it would be a good reason for there to be so many characters and POVs in the story.

IMO AA is:

1) Jon, duh

2) Dany, surprise

3) Bran - mythycal godlike savior figure on a hero's journey

4) Theon - godly in name, has the whole mythical Ironborn background and the dark twist of a Jesus story, tempted(only he took the bait unlike Jesus), tortured, mocked, reborn

5) Arya - also a mythical character, when you think of SEVEN people of any kind you can't help immidiately thining "Arya represents the stranger!" just fits

I'm not that sure about the last two. My guess is:

6) Tyrion - main character, one of the original big 5, him being a dwarf seems a nice touch

7) Brienne - pure maid and total hero, would just fit

But a point could be made for Sansa, Jamie, Davos....?

 

Anyone agree, disagree? (Sorry if that's the nth thread on the topic, didn't see any)

Jon seems to fit mostly in the PTWP role. Not the literal prophecy, but he fits. The line of Aerys and Rhaella
Dany fits the Azor Ahai role. killing her love to create her flaming weapons. 
Bran fits the last hero role. Traveling north to seek out an learn from the children and the greenseers to fight the impending invasion of the others
 

[The Commentator]

4 hours ago, ftheking said:

I'd definitely hate if the heroes of that story somehow belong to the worst religion, that's all about bruning people alive in order to clean them, ew. That's just one aspect, even if they happened to create the name "Azor Ahai". .

 

Is it preferable to have a hero that belong to the second-worst people on the planet, right behind only the Slave Master classes, who slaughter humans to fertilize their weirwood trees!  Yikes.  I think not.  I hear they market a fertilizer brand called "Stark's Human Emulsion for Lush Weirwood", brings out the reds in those leaves and the sap.  

Here's their latest ad:

"You want your weirwood tree to grow like bamboo?  How would you like your prized weirwood specimen to have the reddest leaves in the neighborhood?  All without handling manure.  Works without sunlight"  Well now you can.  With "Stark's Human Emulsion".  Guaranteed fresh and potent.  Yes, we deliver.  

 

[The Commentator]

1 minute ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Jon seems to fit mostly in the PTWP role. Not the literal prophecy, but he fits. The line of Aerys and Rhaella
Dany fits the Azor Ahai role. killing her love to create her flaming weapons. 
Bran fits the last hero role. Traveling north to seek out an learn from the children and the greenseers to fight the impending invasion of the others
 

I also believe those are three separate people.  Each telling of the myth loses accuracy.  

[The Sunland Lord]

21 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

It's going to be a team effort and there will be strong resistance at first.  The bad blood that exists between the Targaryens, the Baratheons, Starks, Lannisters will be a hurdle.  I will even put the Freys on that list because the twins is strategically important should the north fall to the white walkers.  Many old wrongs like the red wedding will have to be forgiven to unite the land together.  I can see Theon, Dany, Tyrion, Sansa, Jon, Davos, Roose, Walder, Samwell, and even Stannis going along with unification.  Unfortunately, there are too many characters driven by hate that will have to be removed from the picture.  Sad to say this but Arya, Catelyn Stoneheart, Cersei, Littlefinger, Ramsay, Doran, Euron, Jaquen, the Maesters, High Sparrow will have to go before unification can happen.  Notice it's not always just the good guys that will need to buy in.  Even the bad boys like Roose and Walder will go along with it if it meant survival.  They may be ruthless but they're also smart men.  I think the question should be:

1. Will the Starks forgive the red wedding?
2. Will Dany forgive the usurpers?
3. Will Stannis step aside and forget his claim to the throne?
4. Will Roose turn his exceptional intellect to better use instead of skinning people? 
5. Can the Ironborn overthrow Euron and join the team?

This story is built too seriously to give Roose or Walder some heroic role, or any kind of redemption for that matter. 

[Wolfgirly]

It could be Jon Snow