Robb's reaction to the summons

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

So what were Robb's options when the royal letter arrived from King's Landing?

1. Obey the summons and come before the royal court.  What would result from this choice?
2. Call his banners and go to war.  We know the results.  It was wrong in my opinion, but I want to hear yours.
3. If Ned had been guilty and Robb knew it, would he abandon Ned to the mercy of the court and stay put in Winterfell?  What I am asking is really "did it matter at all to the Starks whether they were in the right or the wrong?"
4. Would Robb intervene if Ned has been sentenced to the wall?

Bonus

I want you to think carefully and put yourself in Joffrey Baratheons place.  I know it's hard because he's a charming whiff of fart gas but be objective for the sake of the question.  Ned was guilty of treason as far as he knew.  He had no idea that his mom and uncle were the ones to blame.  Ned's family responded to a royal summon with rebellion.  Was his order to execute Ned reasonable? 

 

[The Twinslayer]

I think Robb had one other option:  to fortify the Neck and dare Joffrey to come after him.  I don't think he had to march in defense of the Tullys (Lysa Arryn didn't march in defense of the Tullys and even though some of her lords objected, she was able to maintain control of the Vale).

But I still don't thin that was a realistic option.  Robb believed that he would lose the respect of his lords if he did not march to rescue his father.  None of them believed that Ned was really a traitor.  

As to your second question, I think there is a good case to be made that Ned was, in fact, a traitor.  It appears that, under the law of Westeros, Joffrey was Robert's son and heir even if biologically he was Jaime's son.  We know this because Tywin tells Tyrion that they are legally father and son because Tywin can't prove otherwise.  Plus, Robert openly acknowledged Joffrey as his son and heir and never tried to contest paternity.  Under those circumstances, Joffrey was the rightful king.  

I will now add a third question.  What was Ned's motive in opposing Joffrey?  Was he trying to seat the rightful king on the throne?  Or was he just trying to block his old enemies, the Lannisters, and to save Sansa from marriage to Joffrey?  From the very beginning of the book we are told how much Ned distrusts and dislikes the Lannisters, and we see them acting in ways that appear to confirm that they are sinister.  The question of Joffrey's paternity gave him an excuse to oppose them (even going so far as to re-write Robert's will without telling him).  

Would Ned have done the same in other circumstances?  Suppose Robert had married Lysa Tully, Lysa had a son, and that son was sent to Ned for fostering.  Further suppose that the boy grew up to be everything Ned could ever wish for in a king and he was betrothed to Sansa.  But then, just as Robert lay dying, and the boy was asking Stannis to serve as Hand, Ned noticed that the child looked a lot like Littlefinger and nothing like Robert.  Would Ned have investigated his suspicions or simply let the boy take the throne and marry Sansa?    

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

14 minutes ago, The Twinslayer said:

I think Robb had one other option:  to fortify the Neck and dare Joffrey to come after him.  I don't think he had to march in defense of the Tullys (Lysa Arryn didn't march in defense of the Tullys and even though some of her lords objected, she was able to maintain control of the Vale).

But I still don't thin that was a realistic option.  Robb believed that he would lose the respect of his lords if he did not march to rescue his father.  None of them believed that Ned was really a traitor.  

As to your second question, I think there is a good case to be made that Ned was, in fact, a traitor.  It appears that, under the law of Westeros, Joffrey was Robert's son and heir even if biologically he was Jaime's son.  We know this because Tywin tells Tyrion that they are legally father and son because Tywin can't prove otherwise.  Plus, Robert openly acknowledged Joffrey as his son and heir and never tried to contest paternity.  Under those circumstances, Joffrey was the rightful king.  

I will now add a third question.  What was Ned's motive in opposing Joffrey?  Was he trying to seat the rightful king on the throne?  Or was he just trying to block his old enemies, the Lannisters, and to save Sansa from marriage to Joffrey?  From the very beginning of the book we are told how much Ned distrusts and dislikes the Lannisters, and we see them acting in ways that appear to confirm that they are sinister.  The question of Joffrey's paternity gave him an excuse to oppose them (even going so far as to re-write Robert's will without telling him).  

Would Ned have done the same in other circumstances?  Suppose Robert had married Lysa Tully, Lysa had a son, and that son was sent to Ned for fostering.  Further suppose that the boy grew up to be everything Ned could ever wish for in a king and he was betrothed to Sansa.  But then, just as Robert lay dying, and the boy was asking Stannis to serve as Hand, Ned noticed that the child looked a lot like Littlefinger and nothing like Robert.  Would Ned have investigated his suspicions or simply let the boy take the throne and marry Sansa?    

Correct me if I'm wrong but Ned was going to obey Robert's will, right?

[The Twinslayer]

12 minutes ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but Ned was going to obey Robert's will, right?

No.  Robert's will (as dictated by Robert) named Joffrey as his heir and named Ned to be regent "until my son Joffrey does come of age."  

But Ned doesn't want Joffrey to be the heir so he forges that part of the will.  "So Ned bent his head and wrote, but where the king had said 'my son Joffrey,' he scrawled 'my heir' instead."

Ned then thinks about the fact that the "heir" -- Stannis -- is already of age but that he will wait to proclaim him king "until Lord Stannis had returned to King's Landing with all his power."  

Robert's will (as he dictated it to Ned) confirmed that Joffrey was his son and heir.  Ned had no intention of obeying that.  Instead, he wanted Stannis to come in with an army and seize the throne.  I don't think he would have done that if he liked the Lannisters more than he liked Stannis.   

[elder brother jonothor dar]

As far as the Lannisters where concerned they had 3 Stark hostages what would they want with a 4th(ok 2 but Robb does not know that).  After what happend to his uncle and grandfather you could forgive Robb for being reluctant to answer the summons.

What would Tywin have done? The smart move would have been Ned to the wall Sansa as a hostage, honourable Ned would make Robb bend the knee.  Now where have I heard that before?

[Targaryen Restoration]

3 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Would Robb intervene if Ned has been sentenced to the wall?

 

#4 - That would depend on Ned.  Robb will keep the peace if Ned accepts his sentence and agrees to go. 

3 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

If Ned had been guilty and Robb knew it, would he abandon Ned to the mercy of the court and stay put in Winterfell?  What I am asking is really "did it matter at all to the Starks whether they were in the right or the wrong?"

#3 - Robb couldn't be sure and he still went to war.  The Starks are not different from the other great houses.  It's about protecting your own and it had nothing to do with right or wrong.  This belief that the Starks are somehow on the moral high ground is BS.  Robb would call his banners even if Ned was a traitor to the realm.  He's not mister moral.

# 1 - Robb would swear fealty and Ned would go to the wall.  Going to war actually made it worse.

Joffrey's actions were understandable except that Cersei and his council already made a deal to spare Ned's life.  Ned carried out his end of the deal. 

 

[Makk]

5 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

No.  Robert's will (as dictated by Robert) named Joffrey as his heir and named Ned to be regent "until my son Joffrey does come of age."  

But Ned doesn't want Joffrey to be the heir so he forges that part of the will.  "So Ned bent his head and wrote, but where the king had said 'my son Joffrey,' he scrawled 'my heir' instead."

Ned then thinks about the fact that the "heir" -- Stannis -- is already of age but that he will wait to proclaim him king "until Lord Stannis had returned to King's Landing with all his power."  

Robert's will (as he dictated it to Ned) confirmed that Joffrey was his son and heir.  Ned had no intention of obeying that.  Instead, he wanted Stannis to come in with an army and seize the throne.  I don't think he would have done that if he liked the Lannisters more than he liked Stannis.   

This isn't the full story. Ned didn't tell Robert Joffery wasn't his son because he didn't want to cause him any pain as he lay dying. If he had, I don't believe there is any way Robert would have named Joffery.

[Chris Mormont]

Ned did not commit treason.  He was asserting his role as Regent and taking Joffrey under his protection like Robert wanted.  He should have listened to Renly and taken him that night

As for Robb, he has no choice but to call his banners and march.  His father has been wrongly charged with treason (everyone knows Ned is honorable to a fault), his grandfather is under siege, and he has been order to go to KL where he will then lose all options including either his freedom or his life.

If you allow a tyrant to abuse his power and people unchallenged, you will eventually lose the ability to fight him because he would grow too strong. 

[Sergey Dukman]

Robb HAD TO declare for Stannis.

His father along side with Robert created a new reign in Seven Kingdoms. Robb had to think about that.

Ned wouldn't be proud of his son's actions namely separation of the north from Seven Kingdoms.

Robert wanted to join their houses. Robb ignored that fact either. Robb's nearest people accepted his folly. Blackfish and Catelyn are as much to blame for not to counsel Robb in proper way. Catelyn knew that Ned supported Stannis's claim to the throne. 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

On 6.06.2017 at 11:17 PM, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Bonus

I want you to think carefully and put yourself in Joffrey Baratheons place.  I know it's hard because he's a charming whiff of fart gas but be objective for the sake of the question.  Ned was guilty of treason as far as he knew.  He had no idea that his mom and uncle were the ones to blame.  Ned's family responded to a royal summon with rebellion.  Was his order to execute Ned reasonable?

That, very simply, wasn't his call. He was underage, the real decisions were in the hands of the regent and the Hand, and Joff had no business stepping out of his ornamental role. He could decide what to have for breakfast, not who'll live and who'll die.

[Chris Mormont]

1 hour ago, Sergey Dukman said:

Catelyn knew that Ned supported Stannis's claim to the throne. 

How?  Ned had no idea of the incest and Joffrey not being Robert's son until after he read the book and met Gendry, which was after Cat left KL.  At that point Robert was still alive and healthy so there was no claim to the throne.  

Robb was going to support Stannis' claim but then his bannermen named him King in the North.

[Sergey Dukman]

26 minutes ago, Chris Mormont said:

How?  Ned had no idea of the incest and Joffrey not being Robert's son until after he read the book and met Gendry, which was after Cat left KL.  At that point Robert was still alive and healthy so there was no claim to the throne.  

Robb was going to support Stannis' claim but then his bannermen named him King in the North.

She got to know it when she met Stannis right before Renly's death. To that point, if I remember correctly, Stannis have sent the ravens to expose incest. Right after that, Catelyn had to make Robb listen....

[John Doe]

On 6.6.2017 at 11:17 PM, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

So what were Robb's options when the royal letter arrived from King's Landing?

1. Obey the summons and come before the royal court.  What would result from this choice?
2. Call his banners and go to war.  We know the results.  It was wrong in my opinion, but I want to hear yours.
3. If Ned had been guilty and Robb knew it, would he abandon Ned to the mercy of the court and stay put in Winterfell?  What I am asking is really "did it matter at all to the Starks whether they were in the right or the wrong?"
4. Would Robb intervene if Ned has been sentenced to the wall?

Bonus

I want you to think carefully and put yourself in Joffrey Baratheons place.  I know it's hard because he's a charming whiff of fart gas but be objective for the sake of the question.  Ned was guilty of treason as far as he knew.  He had no idea that his mom and uncle were the ones to blame.  Ned's family responded to a royal summon with rebellion.  Was his order to execute Ned reasonable? 

 

1. He would have to accept the fact that his father might be executed and probably have to deliver some hostages, maybe even agree to the marriage between Sansa and Joffrey. 

2. It was a decent choice by what standards he had, he defended the allied Riverlands and his family. Of course, his actions led to the deaths of thousands. 

3. I don't know. I think he might have still expected a royal pardon rather than a public execution. 

4. I think he would have talked things over with Ned before doing anything. 

Bonus: It wasn't, really, Cersei tore apart Robert's will, which gave Ned legitimacy before he arrested Joffrey. And it was politically extremely stupid because it gave the North a reason to rebel and aid the Riverlands in their war, as well as taint the new rule from day one. Sparing Ned would have been the better choice. 

[Chris Mormont]

On 6/9/2017 at 4:34 PM, Sergey Dukman said:

She got to know it when she met Stannis right before Renly's death. To that point, if I remember correctly, Stannis have sent the ravens to expose incest. Right after that, Catelyn had to make Robb listen....

This occurred after Robb marched South and was named King in the North.

 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Catelyn would have nagged Robb to avenge the Riverlands.