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The Daynes and the Dondarrions


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After browsing this forum casually for years I've decided to make an account, this is my first thread so... I hope this doesn't sound too "newbie": 

The official story (according to the wiki) why Edric, Lord Dayne, is Beric Dondarrion's squire is because his aunt was betrothed to Beric. This aunt would be the sister of Arthur, Ashara and Edric's father. Squiring for your aunt's husband-to-be is not that strange but what bothers me is; Why would a Dornish house from the Red Mountains marry their daughter to their historically mortal enemies, a Marcher Lord.

Is it to show that Dorne and the Marcher lords try put aside their rivalry or is it just an elaborate plot device to place Edric Dayne in the Riverlands with Beric to meet Arya and confuse the reader a bit more about the whole Wylla story and Jon's parentage?

It just seems like a strange match to me. Why would the Daynes marry their only (known) remaining daughter to a potential future enemy in a fragile kingdom with a new dynasty (Baratheon). 

Personally I'm going for the theory that it's a plot device. Am I missing something or is this just another addition to the House Dayne mystery?

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Considering Ashara was a great beauty I'm guessing  Allyria is very pretty as well. Beric at the time the betrothal was made was a dashing handsome Lord. Plus the Daynes of High Hermitage might be looking to make a play on Starfall so having an alliance with a Lord that's somewhat close by would help Edric in the long run. Especially if for whatever reasons the Dayne's felt like they couldn't rely on the Martells or any other Dornish to help them if Darkstar and his thugs try to go after Edric and Starfall.

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It would give a strange situation if Edric dies though... Assuming Edric has no siblings (none are mentioned so far) then the childeren of a marriage between Beric and Allyria would become both Lord of Blackhaven and Lord of Starfall, sworn to both houses Baratheon of Storm's End and Martell. Unless the first child is a girl of course, Daughter Dondarrion would get Starfall according to Dornish law then and her little brother, assuming he would be born, would become Lord of Blackhaven.

But while typing this I realize I'm probably reading to much into this situation and am thinking more about this possible issue than GRRM intended. None of this will happen anyway because of the death of Beric. Just the possibilities of these scenario's make the match strange to me. 

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Depending on who you believe Allyrias' parents to be? IMO she is either Neds or Lyannas, The connection to House Dondarrion is perhaps for two reasons. The first being that the two Houses are ancient and have some historical bond through marriage or other reasons that we are not currently aware of. The second reason I think they are tied through the betrothal is that House Dondarrion swears fealty to Storms End. If war was likely to break out within the realm, this would ensure that House Stark and House Dondarrion would be on the same side. Ned would not want a relation of his to have ties to the Lannisters, Tyrells etc. And as we seen in the books, Beric was chosen to lead the hunt for the Mountain and Ned says he wanted someone who did not swear fealty to Tywin.

I find it interesting Beric could not remember the colour of his betrothed hair. As we know, hair and eye colour seem to be the obvious traits when deciding if some one has the dragons blood within them. I suspect Allyria may have hair colour associated with the Targaryans.

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20 minutes ago, Maester Crypt said:

I suspect Allyria may have hair colour associated with the Targaryans.

That's a suckers bet. The Dayne's are somewhat known for having Valyrain traits like silver/white blonde hair and purple eyes.

Anyway, I think Allyria is exactly who she says she is. The youngest sister of Ashara, Arthur and Edric's father. As Ralphis said above, it may be because of the Darkstar that the betrothal was made. The Dondarions are a relatively powerful, close by house, who had a Lord of a similar sort of age to Allyria.  

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6 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

That's a suckers bet. The Dayne's are somewhat known for having Valyrain traits like silver/white blonde hair and purple eyes.

Anyway, I think Allyria is exactly who she says she is. The youngest sister of Ashara, Arthur and Edric's father. As Ralphis said above, it may be because of the Darkstar that the betrothal was made. The Dondarions are a relatively powerful, close by house, who had a Lord of a similar sort of age to Allyria.  

It might be a suckers bet but if as you say the Dayne's are somewhat known to have those traits. Having the child of Rhaegar-Lyanna raised a Dayne would make more sense than bringing that child up to the North and hoping that it shows none of those traits.

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1 hour ago, Maester Crypt said:

It might be a suckers bet but if as you say the Dayne's are somewhat known to have those traits. Having the child of Rhaegar-Lyanna raised a Dayne would make more sense than bringing that child up to the North and hoping that it shows none of those traits.

Maybe so, but that's nonetheless what happened. Allyria being Lyanna and Rhaegar's child wouldn't make sense from a narrative perspective because we've never met her before. With only two books left to go and all the evidence saying that Jon is the most likely candidate to be Lyanna and Rhaegar's child.

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10 hours ago, Deepbollywood Motte said:

After browsing this forum casually for years I've decided to make an account, this is my first thread so... I hope this doesn't sound too "newbie": 

The official story (according to the wiki) why Edric, Lord Dayne, is Beric Dondarrion's squire is because his aunt was betrothed to Beric. This aunt would be the sister of Arthur, Ashara and Edric's father. Squiring for your aunt's husband-to-be is not that strange but what bothers me is; Why would a Dornish house from the Red Mountains marry their daughter to their historically mortal enemies, a Marcher Lord.

Is it to show that Dorne and the Marcher lords try put aside their rivalry or is it just an elaborate plot device to place Edric Dayne in the Riverlands with Beric to meet Arya and confuse the reader a bit more about the whole Wylla story and Jon's parentage?

It just seems like a strange match to me. Why would the Daynes marry their only (known) remaining daughter to a potential future enemy in a fragile kingdom with a new dynasty (Baratheon). 

Personally I'm going for the theory that it's a plot device. Am I missing something or is this just another addition to the House Dayne mystery?

This is what the wiki says but the wiki is wrong for several reasons.  

First, Beric is not betrothed to Ned Dayne's aunt.  Berric is married to her.  Ned Dayne says that Beric and his aunt were "espoused," which is used elsewhere to mean marriage.

Second, we are never told that Beric's lady is Allyria, just that the lady in question is Ned Dayne's aunt.  Beric may very well be married to the sister of Ned's mother who likely had no ties to House Dayne prior to her marriage.

Third, we don't know that Allyria is a Dayne at all.  We just know that she is Ned's aunt.  She could easily be his mother's sister.  

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28 minutes ago, The Twinslayer said:

This is what the wiki says but the wiki is wrong for several reasons.  

First, Beric is not betrothed to Ned Dayne's aunt.  Berric is married to her.  Ned Dayne says that Beric and his aunt were "espoused," which is used elsewhere to mean marriage.

Second, we are never told that Beric's lady is Allyria, just that the lady in question is Ned Dayne's aunt.  Beric may very well be married to the sister of Ned's mother who likely had no ties to House Dayne prior to her marriage.

Third, we don't know that Allyria is a Dayne at all.  We just know that she is Ned's aunt.  She could easily be his mother's sister.  

Ah, while reading I also assumed she was a Dayne but I read it back and you're right. We don't know anything about Edric's parents. Now I'll just have to wait for next books and see if that is because it's not important or because it is very important.

House Dayne is just so much of a mystery in the story that they will have to come back. It doesn't seem like there are many members left so I guess either darkstar will enlighten us (If he knows anything about the whole 'Main-branch plots') or Edric will return on the pages (or Ashara-alive hype, or halfhand being Arthur ect.).

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2 hours ago, Deepbollywood Motte said:

Ah, while reading I also assumed she was a Dayne but I read it back and you're right. We don't know anything about Edric's parents. Now I'll just have to wait for next books and see if that is because it's not important or because it is very important.

House Dayne is just so much of a mystery in the story that they will have to come back. It doesn't seem like there are many members left so I guess either darkstar will enlighten us (If he knows anything about the whole 'Main-branch plots') or Edric will return on the pages (or Ashara-alive hype, or halfhand being Arthur ect.).

I agree.  And presumably Dawn will put in an appearance at some point.  

I think the original plan must have been for Ned Dayne to grow up during the five year gap so he could play a significant role in the end game.  But he is still too young, and we know he does not have an older brother (because he is Lord Dayne).  I wonder if Darkstar was created so that he can fill that role. 

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On 2017-6-7 at 2:12 PM, The Twinslayer said:

we don't know that Allyria is a Dayne at all.

The source of the wiki on this is the app, for there is an entry there for "Allyria Dayne". Even it's a semi-canon, it remains as strong as a SSM.

However, the marriage issue is a harder matter, since Edric say Beric had espoused his aunt in the canon (book), but the app says she has been betrothed to him.

On 2017-6-7 at 2:40 PM, Deepbollywood Motte said:

Now I'll just have to wait for next books and see if that is because it's not important or because it is very important.

A made a little search on squire section of the wiki and did not find any previous example of dornish boys squiring for a marcher lord or vice versa. The same works for the pages section.

Dayne-Dondarrion relationship sounds very weird to me, althought Blackhaven guards the Boneway, not the Prince's Pass, and the fact that House Dayne is historically known to attack the Reach, not the Stormlands, and are ancient enemies of House Oakheart.

What is also worth noting is that this relationship maybe a very recent thing. Maybe part of some plan of House Dayne, or Martell.

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On 07.06.2017 at 8:12 PM, The Twinslayer said:

 

First, Beric is not betrothed to Ned Dayne's aunt.  Berric is married to her.  Ned Dayne says that Beric and his aunt were "espoused," which is used elsewhere to mean marriage.

"She told me." It all seemed so long ago. "Her friend Jeyne Poole fell in love with your Lord Beric."
"He's promised to my aunt." Ned looked uncomfortable. "That was before, though. Before he. . ."

so no, they are not married. plus Beric says himself says that  "and there was a woman I was pledged to marry"

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On Invalid Date at 1:12 PM, The Twinslayer said:

First, Beric is not betrothed to Ned Dayne's aunt.  Berric is married to her.  Ned Dayne says that Beric and his aunt were "espoused," which is used elsewhere to mean marriage.

 

3 hours ago, Ckram said:

However, the marriage issue is a harder matter, since Edric say Beric had espoused his aunt in the canon (book), but the app says she has been betrothed to him.

 

From Websters Dictionary

The words "espouse" and "spouse" are related, both deriving from the Latin verb spondēre, meaning "to promise or betroth." In fact, the two were once completely interchangeable, with each serving as a noun meaning "a newly married person" or "a husband or wife" and also as a verb meaning "to marry." Their semantic separation began in the 17th century, when the noun "espouse" fell out of use. Around the same time, people started using the verb "espouse" figuratively to mean "to commit to and support a cause." "Spouse" continued to be used in both noun and verb forms until the 20th century, when its verb use declined and it came to be used mainly as a noun meaning "husband or wife."

 

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Interesting that House Dayne would allow their young Lord to squire for Beric, this perhaps speaks to the martial prowess of The Lightning Lord being thought of highly around The Red Mountains. I imagine the Daynes having the mindset that Edric, and the future of the line, must be protected at all costs, so Allyria''s betrothal to Beric could have been highly advantageous to The Daynes, as it may have ended any potential hostilities between The Dayne's and The Marcher Lords. Then again, Gerold's "Daynes have been killing Oakhearts for millenia" line could suggest members of each house weren't to happy about the marriage proposal.

Ser Arthur's history with the Targaryens would have surley meant his kin would have been constantly looking over their shoulders in the post Rebellion era, waiting for some potential repurcussion from Robert. How would the Small Council have viewed the Daynes? I imagine with some degree of distrust, considering the issue of the spirited away Viserys and Dany. Wouldn't Tywin and co have seen Starfall and High Hermitage as potential hiding places for the young Dragons? I imagine the Daynes would have been lacking friends outside of Dorne, so the Blackhaven Alliance would have also served as somewhat of a fealty pleadge towards Storm King Robert.

It's also worth throwing out there the similiar origin stories of each house. We have the famous Dayne tale of the white sword carved from a fallen star. Compare this to the wiki history of Beric's kin.

The Dondarrion line was founded when a messenger from the Storm King was ambushed by two Dornishmen while riding on a stormy night. An arrow killed his horse and his sword broke when he fell. When he thought he was doomed, a bright purple lightning bolt struck the Dornishmen, killing both. The man was thus able to deliver his crucial message on time. For this, the Storm King raised him to lordship, and he became the first Dondarrion. 

Both stories center on mysterious objects originating from the skies. Bright purple also brings to mind the Dayne eye colour. 

I wouldn't be surprised to see a Dondarrion military contingent at either Starfall of High Hermitage when we evenutually catch a glimpse of either castle. We havent heard much on the issue of who now controls Blackhaven, something you would think would have came up in council meetings, considering the strategic value of the seats location. This makes me think George is downplaying the current situation amongst House Dondarrion, and perhaps they are poised to make some big moves. The currently missing Edric Dayne could maybe be capable of rallying his former mentor's House to the original cause of The Brotherhood Without Banners. Especially if Allyria has a young babe at her breast.

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@Shuvuuia 

Thanks!

@Maester Crypt 

I did the same search. However click here and check out the meaning of this word in the books.

@Leo of House Cartel 

I can't see sending Lord of Starfall to Blackhaven as a way of protecting him or of bringing peace to the Dornish marches.

Unless one is expecting to be attacked by dragons, Starfall's island seems to be safer place to their lord than a castle on the Red Mountains, near the Boneway. On the other hand, even after Daeron I took dornish highborn hostages, the army he left there died by the hands of Dorne's smallfolk, acting on their own behalf. Thus the hostage logic don't garantee peace with Dorne.

Regarding the political status of House Dayne after Robert's Rebbelion, we could assume that is the same of the rest of Dorne: to fake loyalty and plan rebellion.

However since the aftermath for the Daynes envolved a little of honor (with Ned returning Dawn) and cooperation (backing Ned's story about Jon be Wylla's child), I dare say that the Daynes' stories will push dornish envelope, although I doubt it would be through their apparently ruined alliance with the Dondarrions.

I would be very intrigued to see Dondarrion men anywhere in Dorne. But I agree that Blackhaven succession looks of importance to the plot and is been dutifully ignored by the Crown (although with a good reason, since nobody outside BwB seems able to tell if Beric is dead or alive).

On the other hand, I wouldn't bet that Beric had a child with Allyria or some other Edric's aunt, once he was only promised to her (as shown above by @Shuvuuia).

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On 6/7/2017 at 5:52 AM, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Considering Ashara was a great beauty I'm guessing  Allyria is very pretty as well. Beric at the time the betrothal was made was a dashing handsome Lord. Plus the Daynes of High Hermitage might be looking to make a play on Starfall so having an alliance with a Lord that's somewhat close by would help Edric in the long run. Especially if for whatever reasons the Dayne's felt like they couldn't rely on the Martells or any other Dornish to help them if Darkstar and his thugs try to go after Edric and Starfall.

They'd have to find him first; last we heard, Edric's still in the Riverlands with some of the Brotherhood after the split when Beric died. And Dorne is a long way from the Riverlands. Plus, Gerold's a wanted man from King's Landing to Sunspear.

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10 hours ago, Ckram said:

 

10 hours ago, Ckram said:

I can't see sending Lord of Starfall to Blackhaven as a way of protecting him or of bringing peace to the Dornish marches.

Unless one is expecting to be attacked by dragons, Starfall's island seems to be safer place to their lord than a castle on the Red Mountains, near the Boneway.

I'm not sure how safe Starfall or Blackhaven truly are, but I don't think we should assume either are impregnable-unless-beseiged-by-dragons. Think of Pyke during The First Greyjoy Rebellion, Robert had no dragons, yet ended the war there and then.

Well I doubt Edric's Blackhaven sabbatical would have been done entirely for those two reasons. Granted those purposes may have been served by the arrangement, however, I imagine The Daynes would see more benefit from the personal progress their young lord could make behind Beric's black basalt walls. Serving as a page at Blackhaven could teach the potential future Sword of The Morning alot...

If we consider Young Aegon's training aboard the Shy Maid, we see the lad being taught various things which a future king may need to know such as

  • Maesterly-esque political and scientific training from Haldon Halfmaester
  • Teachings in Various Faiths from Lady Lemore
  • Training to arms from JonCon and Duckfield
  • Nautical knowledge surley imparted from Yandry and Ysilla

Now compare this to what Lord Edric could learn at Blackhaven.

  • Knightly training in the ways of chivalry and combat from a fellow Lord, one deemed worthy of betrothal to Edric's aunt. Beric's exploits during his tenure as BWB leader showed he was a more than capable fighter and tactician, with a certain level of skill and charisma that clearly made him a highly positive influence on young Ned. The Lightning Lord certainly had a knack for inspiring those around him and drawing folk to his presence, abilities which would no doubt impress many members of the legendary Dayne family. Why, Beric's adventures in The Riverlands, coupled with his chivalrous, man of the people attitude almost makes him seen like Arthur Dayne reborn.
  • Political training, with an emphasis on the history between the Marcher Lords and their rivals to the south. If Edric were to serve well and make a few friends, it could position The Daynes as one of the few "pro Marcher Houses" in Dorne, making valuable alliances that the other dynasties in the Red Mountains don't have, and might not even be interested in making. As Blackhaven is sworn to Storm's End, Edric's fostering could also perhaps act as some form of an inroad  into gaining the trust of King Robert. Serving as a page in a castle relatively near the home of The Lord Commander of The Kingsguard, Ser Barristan Selmy of Harvest Hall, could also be viewed as a politically astute maneuver, as Selmy may have kin of an age with Ned whocould perhaps be befriended.
  • Exposure to various cultures and faiths. Granted, we don't know if Blackhaven has a Weirwood, Sept or such, but the fact that Ned ended up squiring in a tournament at King's Landing, of all places, shows he was certainly given opportunities to be exposed to the big wide world. Think of how remote Starfall is said to be, their just simply wouldn't be a massive number of smallfolk for Edric to spend time with. By having him squire for the young, capable and hungry Beric, Ned was more like to understand the love and plight of the smallfolk, as he would surley encounter a wider variety of people at Blackhaven and beyond than he would have had he remained on his island in The Torrentine.

Look at it this way, Edric's time at Blackhaven could have helped train him to become a great Lord, one perhaps even worthy of weilding Dawn, as well as potentially strengthening political connections in The Marches and beyond. 

 

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Fascinating to learn that Allyria is not necessarily Arthur's and Ashara's sister.

As to Stone Dornioshman Edric squiring for a Stormlander Lord ... c'mon, the two sides do not kill one another on sight. They share a border, so they intermarry. The can easily make marriage pacts when checking border posts ...

Hence the next time there is a war the House on the losing side can get better terms as they have kinsmen in the winning camp.

Edric gets captured by Lord X but the Lord is nice (nice than the norm) to Lord Dayne because Edric's Aunt is wife to Lord Dondarrion, and Lord X's mother is a Dondarrion - something like that.

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@Leo of House Cartel

I am not of the opinion that Starfall is impregnable. Sorry, I think I didn't made my reference as clear as I wanted. I was refering to the first Dornish War, when the Targaryen's dragons attacked Starfall, to indicate that hiding Edric in a place as far and as improbable as Blackhaven would only be an good option if Starfall was to face a dragon threat.

Regarding the third reason you pointed for Edric's stay in Blackhaven (and its comparison with Aegon VI), I imagine that he would be exposed to all of this even if he were a page and squire at the Westerlands, Riverlands, Crownlands or the Vale, where his House has no obvious enemies.

One must have in mind that Beric was only 18 when he took Edric as a page, and we don't know if he had any fame at that time. However it's most likely that Beric had not done anything remarkable back then. Everything that he is now known for was developed during his time commanding the BwB.

In deed, when Eddard first saw him by the Mud Gate of King's Landing (AGOT - Eddard VI), he literally ignored Beric, even in his thoughts. Then, when Eddard sent troops to kill the Mountain (AGOT - Eddard XI), he gave the command to Beric because it befitted his "rank", not because of his notorious abillities. Finally, Tywin called Beric "some young lordling with delusions of valor" (AGOT - Tyrion VII). Bryden Tully also called Beric a "lordling" (ACOK - Catelyn I).

As for the political reasons, I can't see House Dayne wanting/needing an political alliance with a Marcher Lord which they don't share borders or, worse, with the usurper king. On the other Hand, I bet that Baristan Selmy is the last person they wanna hear of; Ser Arthur died fulfilling his duties and there goes Barristan, joyfully serving the usurper.

Thus i find your arguments hard to agree with.

However I still can't figure the reason why Edric was sent to Blackhaven. And what bothers me the most is that Edric was Lord of Starfall since the begining of the series (AGOT - Appendix), not an apparent heir that was sent to be fostered by a Lord (like Robert in the Eyrie).

This makes me wonder if someone in House Dayne isn't planning to take power or is working on behalf of some other heir. If that is the case, sending Edric can be part of that plan, or maybe the opposite, a work of a "loyalist". But even this looks too far-fetched to me, since the whole thing took place in 294 AC and nobody makes mention of nothing special happening with Daynes of Starfall, even in Dorne.

@TMIFairy

That's the weirdest part: Blackhaven and Starfall don't share borders. They seem to be separated by the same distance there is between Riverrun and Casterly Rock. See for yourself here.

In addition, Maester Yandel states the following in TWOIAF:

"The castles of the Dornish Marches are among the strongest of the realm, and for good reason, for seldom has a generation passed when they have not faced some new attack".

"The stony Dornish have the most in common with those north of the mountains and are the least touched by Rhoynish custom. This has not made them close allies with the Marcher lords or the Lords of the Reach, however; on the contrary, it has been said that the mountain lords have a history as savage as that of the mountain clans of the Vale, having for thousands of years warred with the Reach and the stormlands, as well as with each other."


To me it is something like Middle East politics. This Dayne-Dondarrion coalition is very intriguing.

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14 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

They'd have to find him first; last we heard, Edric's still in the Riverlands with some of the Brotherhood after the split when Beric died. And Dorne is a long way from the Riverlands. Plus, Gerold's a wanted man from King's Landing to Sunspear.

There was no way for any one to know all this would happen once the betrothal was made and Edric was made Berc's squire. Obviously the marriage won't be happening now either with Beric being dead. If no wars had broken out it's safe to assume Edric would have eventually been Knighted by Beric then Beric would have married Allyria then both Edric and Beric would move into their respective Castles with a strong alliances between them. Then if Darkstar ever came at Edric Beric would aid him in putting him down.

 

 

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