Heresy 199 Once upon a Time in the West

[Melifeather]

22 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Oh i don't think its unlikely,no more or less than the other alternatives.But for me the narrative,themes of misdirection,perspective,and human behavior makes it not compelling.

Let's look at the toj scence and the winter rose theme.Core tenents of rlj.I see the dots don't see why they go together..All they tell me is Rhaegar gave Lyanna them at Harrenhal.We have a fact there that can't be disputed.

When i look at the places they occur and tie them another narrative forms more compelling.I want you to note its sequential as if the story is being told beneath.

We get a scene at Chataya's brothal with Tyrion.

We have when Ned meets Barra's mom now at Chataya's:

I surmise that based on the freckling description Barra's mom was the girl with the blue flowers in her hair when Tyrion visited Robert's favorite  brothel.The similarity to Lyanna doesn't end there.

We have the reoccurring promise me....On  a girl who evoked Lyanna in Ned's memory down to the smile that tore his heart.A girl with blue flowers in her hair at one point who had Robert's bastard.

We get this characterization of Robert 

We then have Ned seeing Jon Snow's face who looked so much like Ned( Misdirection) the point is after that encounter that scene Jon was brought to mind then...

 Back to blue roses:

This act of Robert having sex wit a pseudo Lyanna is what prompts Ned to think of blue roses and wanting to weep.

If you ask me to follow the breadcrumbs of blue roses as a clue for Ray Ray. All i get is he gave them to Lyanna.That is the only connection.Just as Loras gave Sansa a rose at a tourney and that was that.

I follow them another route where,frequency and 'how' they occur i get more connections and  punch.

It tells me Robert took her maiden head and got her preggers.To me more compelling.The author recreated a scene,put in stand in's for Lyanna made it sexual with a baby.But what do i know.

The toj in the narrative i see,has nothing to do with Jon's parentage.Or who they could be.Imo 

Not to discount your theory, but I just wanted to point out that the description of having freckles marks her for death as well as the connection to blue flowers. It's symbolic of the spattering of blood from a sword wound, like the image of Lyanna Theon saw. There are several examples throughout the books of female characters described as having freckles or spots and they are connected to death or injury by sword. Cersei's childhood friend, Melara had freckles. Wenda the white "fawn" was part of the Kingswood Brotherhood that attacked Elia and injured Gerold Hightower. Myrcella drew red spots on her handmaiden, Rosamund before sneaking out of Sunspear to meet up with Arianne, which is followed by her injury where Darkstar tried to kill her. Barra of course watches as her baby is slaughtered in front of her eyes. To me the examples of freckles and spots connected to blue flowers are evidence that Lyanna died of a festering sword wound and not childbirth.

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, Muttering Ed said:

Got to be honest, Robert being Jon's father is one of the least compelling theories I've seen. No offense Wolfmaid, but all of King Robert's children have black hair and blue eyes, and that's definitely not Jon. "Trouserless Bob" is a great name for Robert and he left us plenty of evidence that his children have a certain look. Whereas Jon looks so uniquely Stark that even crazy old Craster noted him for a Stark at one glance.

FWIW, I'm on board for R+L=J until something more convincing is put forth in the text. I just haven't seen anything more convincing so far.

 

PS... who is the aspiring bard who coined the nickname "Trouserless Bob"? I love the descriptiveness of that epithet. 

 

I agree and as to "Trouserless Bob" it was me 

[Black Crow]

44 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Not to discount your theory, but I just wanted to point out that the description of having freckles marks her for death as well as the connection to blue flowers. It's symbolic of the spattering of blood from a sword wound, like the image of Lyanna Theon saw. There are several examples throughout the books of female characters described as having freckles or spots and they are connected to death or injury by sword. Cersei's childhood friend, Melara had freckles. Wenda the white "fawn" was part of the Kingswood Brotherhood that attacked Elia and injured Gerold Hightower. Myrcella drew red spots on her handmaiden, Rosamund before sneaking out of Sunspear to meet up with Arianne, which is followed by her injury where Darkstar tried to kill her. Barra of course watches as her baby is slaughtered in front of her eyes. To me the examples of freckles and spots connected to blue flowers are evidence that Lyanna died of a festering sword wound and not childbirth.

Another example is the freckled girl on the ship burned by Victarion

[JNR]

Well, there are also numerous characters who have freckles and seem to come to no such unfortunate fate... such as Brienne, still quite alive and well when last seen in ADWD, or Anguy the Archer, who won the archery contest at the Hand's tourney and went on to join Dondarrion's group.

There's even Dancy, the ho at Chataya's, who combines freckles and blue flowers:

Quote

The freckled one wore a chain of blue flowers in her honeyed hair.

...and I don't recall that any harm came to her either.

So the idea that freckles = death, like many other symbolic equivalencies, seems pretty sketchy to me.

[ravenous reader]

50 minutes ago, JNR said:

Well, there are also numerous characters who have freckles and seem to come to no such unfortunate fate... such as Brienne, still quite alive and well when last seen in ADWD, or Anguy the Archer, who won the archery contest at the Hand's tourney and went on to join Dondarrion's group.

There's even Dancy, the ho at Chataya's, who combines freckles and blue flowers:

...and I don't recall that any harm came to her either.

So the idea that freckles = death, like many other symbolic equivalencies, seems pretty sketchy to me.

Brienne:  'Give me the sword, Jaime...'  Jaime:  'Oh I will!'

Similarly, 'the ho at Chataya's' is 'given the sword', many times a day to boot!  

So now JNR, you will tell me that this means nothing, given that many lasses lose their maiden- and other heads to a 'sword'!  

So -- we have to decide if 'a sword is just a sword'...or can it sometimes mean something else -- or even multiple things at once?  If we can't even settle on the meaning of a 'festering sword wound,' and the true nature of freckly impalements, how will we ever know anything (how, by the way, did you arrive at your 'C-section' hypothesis for Lyanna without using any symbolic allusion whatsoever)?  Maybe GRRM is just partial to freckles -- and redheads.  That would be it, yes.

[Frey family reunion]

I think the answer to the tower of joy lies with trying to figure out Rhaegar's story arc.    And to figure out Rhaegar's story arc, I think we need to figure out Summerhall.  

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"This talk of a stone dragon... madness, I tell you sheer madness.  Did we learn nothing from Aerion Brightfire, from the nine mages, from the alchemists?  Did we learn nothing from Summerhall?  No good has ever come from these dreams of dragons,...

Quote

...there was a melancholy to Prince Rhaegar, a sense..."  The old man hesitated again.

"Say it," she urged.  "A sense...?"

"...of doom.  He was born in grief, my queen, and that shadow hung over him all his days."

Viserys had spoken of Rhaegar's birth only once.  Perhaps the tale saddened him too much.  "It was the shadow of Summerhall that haunted him, was it not?"

"Yes.  And yet Summerhall was the place the prince loved best.  He would go there from time to time, with only his harp for company.  Even the knights of the Kingsguard did not attend him there.  He liked to sleep in the ruined hall, beneath the moon and stars and whenever he came back he would bring a song.  When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings and sign of twilights and tears and the death of kings, you could not but feel that he was singing of himself and those he loved."

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It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory.

Quote

Burning dead children had ceased to trouble Jon Snow; live ones were another matter.  Two kings to wake the dragon.  The father first and then the son, so both die kings.

Quote

The man had her brother's hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac.  "Aegon," he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed.  "What better name for a king?"

"Will you make a song for him?" The woman asked.

"He has a song," the man replied.  "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire."... "There must be one more,...The dragon has three heads."

 

[Black Crow]

52 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

 Maybe GRRM is just partial to freckles -- and redheads.  That would be it, yes.

Speaking as a writer myself, who like all writers is prone to overusing certain words, phrases and motiffs, I knink you may be closer than you know.

[Muttering Ed]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

 

I agree and as to "Trouserless Bob" it was me 

Kudos to you sir. The late king will forever be trouserless to me. 

[Melifeather]

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Another example is the freckled girl on the ship burned by Victarion

Awesome! I'll add that one to the collection! 

4 hours ago, JNR said:

Well, there are also numerous characters who have freckles and seem to come to no such unfortunate fate... such as Brienne, still quite alive and well when last seen in ADWD, or Anguy the Archer, who won the archery contest at the Hand's tourney and went on to join Dondarrion's group.

There's even Dancy, the ho at Chataya's, who combines freckles and blue flowers:

...and I don't recall that any harm came to her either.

So the idea that freckles = death, like many other symbolic equivalencies, seems pretty sketchy to me.

You don't like drawing meaning from symbolism I take it. They don't have to die themselves, but like ravenous reader pointed out they are connected to swords. I'm sure Brienne has been spattered with blood many times when she uses her sword too.

4 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Brienne:  'Give me the sword, Jaime...'  Jaime:  'Oh I will!'

Similarly, 'the ho at Chataya's' is 'given the sword', many times a day to boot!  

So now JNR, you will tell me that this means nothing, given that many lasses lose their maiden- and other heads to a 'sword'!  

So -- we have to decide if 'a sword is just a sword'...or can it sometimes mean something else -- or even multiple things at once?  If we can't even settle on the meaning of a 'festering sword wound,' and the true nature of freckly impalements, how will we ever know anything (how, by the way, did you arrive at your 'C-section' hypothesis for Lyanna without using any symbolic allusion whatsoever)?  Maybe GRRM is just partial to freckles -- and redheads.  That would be it, yes.

  Too bad there isn't a "hats-off" emoticon but this will suffice!

[JNR]

5 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Brienne:  'Give me the sword, Jaime...'  Jaime:  'Oh I will!'

Similarly, 'the ho at Chataya's' is 'given the sword', many times a day to boot!

The suggested symbolism was:

8 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

the description of having freckles marks her for death as well as the connection to blue flowers

Unless by death you mean la petite mort, I don't think Dancy (who has both freckles and blue flowers) is going to support this idea very well.

And if it is the little death you have in mind, then super-freckly Brienne -- more's the pity for her -- doesn't even seem to fit in that sense, as far as the reader has been told.

5 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

(how, by the way, did you arrive at your 'C-section' hypothesis for Lyanna without using any symbolic allusion whatsoever)?

Pretty easily.  Ned recalls:

Quote

Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses.

If the room smells of blood and roses, they must both be fresh.  (This alone, btw, shows the roses can't possibly be the same as the ones that were cut ~2 years before at Harrenhal, as used in the crown she was given.)

Also, we have:

Quote

The fever had taken her strength

It's not hard to infer that if this girl had a baby, the birth process did not go well and she acquired an infection and from it, the fever.  So what kind of birth process would fill a room with the smell of blood, and also lead to much higher odds of infection?

A sword, as possibly wielded by a KG to perform an emergency C-section, would cover those facts pretty neatly.  So to that extent, I do agree with Feather.

But if you want symbolic support, you don't have to look very far:

Quote

The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna.

This is from Theon's dream and hence, nonliteral... but as nonliteral images go, it's pretty damn literal.  Also, of course, spattered with gore really does not at all describe a conventional birth process that leads to puerperal fever... the usual favorite explanation, that we read about in another place.

[JNR]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Speaking as a writer myself, who like all writers is prone to overusing certain words, phrases and motiffs, I knink you may be closer than you know.

Not only do I agree with this, but... so does his primary editor, Anne Groell.

Quote

The repeated phrase she tried to cut back on in A Dance With Dragons was “words are wind” (which appears 14 times) but Martin was “stubborn.” No word on niello, nuncle, neeps, little and less, nipples on a breastplate, or other distracting words or phrases.

 

[ravenous reader]

2 hours ago, JNR said:

Unless by death you mean la petite mort, I don't think Dancy (who has both freckles and blue flowers) is going to support this idea very well.

And if it is the little death you have in mind, then super-freckly Brienne -- more's the pity for her -- doesn't even seem to fit in that sense, as far as the reader has been told.

I think Jaime disagrees with you...

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jaime III

“Give me the sword, Kingslayer.”

“Oh, I will.” He sprang to his feet and drove at her, the longsword alive in his hands. Brienne jumped back, parrying, but he followed, pressing the attack. No sooner did she turn one cut than the next was upon her. The swords kissed and sprang apart and kissed again. Jaime’s blood was singing. This was what he was meant for; he never felt so alive as when he was fighting, with death balanced on every stroke. And with my wrists chained together, the wench may even give me a contest for a time. His chains forced him to use a two-handed grip, though of course the weight and reach were less than if the blade had been a true two-handed greatsword, but what did it matter? His cousin’s sword was long enough to write an end to this Brienne of Tarth.

High, low, overhand, he rained down steel upon her. Left, right, backslash, swinging so hard that sparks flew when the swords came together, upswing, sideslash, overhand, always attacking, moving into her, step and slide, strike and step, step and strike, hacking, slashing, faster, faster, faster...

. . until, breathless, he stepped back and let the point of the sword fall to the ground, giving her a moment of respite. “Not half bad,” he acknowledged. “For a wench.” She took a slow deep breath, her eyes watching him warily. “I would not hurt you, Kingslayer.”

“As if you could.” He whirled the blade back up above his head and flew at her again, chains rattling.

Jaime could not have said how long he pressed the attack. It might have been minutes or it might have been hours; time slept when swords woke. He drove her away from his cousin’s corpse, drove her across the road, drove her into the trees. She stumbled once on a root she never saw, and for a moment he thought she was done, but she went to one knee instead of falling, and never lost a beat. Her sword leapt up to block a downcut that would have opened her from shoulder to groin, and then she cut at him, again and again, fighting her way back to her feet stroke by stroke.

The dance went on. He pinned her against an oak, cursed as she slipped away, fol owed her through a shallow brook half-choked with fallen leaves. Steel rang, steel sang, steel screamed and sparked and scraped, and the woman started grunting like a sow at every crash, yet somehow he could not reach her. It was as if she had an iron cage around her that stopped every blow.

“Not bad at all,” he said when he paused for a second to catch his breath, circling to her right.

“For a wench?”

“For a squire, say. A green one.” He laughed a ragged, breathless laugh. “Come on, come on, my sweetling, the music’s still playing. Might I have this dance, my lady?” Grunting, she came at him, blade whirling, and suddenly it was Jaime struggling to keep steel from skin. One of her slashes raked across his brow, and blood ran down into his right eye. The Others take her, and Riverrun as well ! His skills had gone to rust and rot in that bloody dungeon, and the chains were no great help either. His eye closed, his shoulders were going numb from the jarring they’d taken, and his wrists ached from the weight of chains, manacles, and sword. His longsword grew heavier with every blow, and Jaime knew he was not swinging it as quickly as he’d done earlier, nor raising it as high.

She is stronger than I am.

The realization chilled him. Robert had been stronger than him, to be sure. The White Bull Gerold Hightower as well, in his heyday, and Ser Arthur Dayne. Amongst the living, Greatjon Umber was stronger, Strongboar of Crakehall most likely, both Cleganes for a certainty. The Mountain’s strength was like nothing human. It did not matter. With speed and skill, Jaime could beat them all . But this was a woman. A huge cow of a woman, to be sure, but even so... by rights, she should be the one wearing down.

Instead she forced him back into the brook again, shouting, “Yield! Throw down the sword!” A slick stone turned under Jaime’s foot. As he felt himself falling, he twisted the mischance into a diving lunge. His point scraped past her parry and bit into her upper thigh. A red flower blossomed, and Jaime had an instant to savor the sight of her blood before his knee slammed into a rock. The pain was blinding. Brienne splashed into him and kicked away his sword. “YIELD!” Jaime drove his shoulder into her legs, bringing her down on top of him. They rolled, kicking and punching until finally she was sitting astride him. He managed to jerk her dagger from its sheath, but before he could plunge it into her belly she caught his wrist and slammed his hands back on a rock so hard he thought she’d wrenched an arm from its socket. Her other hand spread across his face. “Yield!” She shoved his head down, held it under, pulled it up. “Yield!” Jaime spit water into her face. A shove, a splash, and he was under again, kicking uselessly, fighting to breathe. Up again. “Yield, or I’ll drown you!”

“And break your oath?” he snarled. “Like me?”

She let him go, and he went down with a splash.

And the woods rang with coarse laughter.

Brienne lurched to her feet. She was all mud and blood below the waist, her clothing askew, her face red. She looks as if they caught us fucking instead of fighting. Jaime crawled over the rocks to shallow water, wiping the blood from his eye with his chained hands. Armed men lined both sides of the brook. Small wonder, we were making enough noise to wake a dragon. “Well met, friends,” he called to them amiably. “My pardons if I disturbed you. You caught me chastising my wife.”

“Seemed to me she was doing the chastising.”

If you think this passage has nothing to do with sex, then you don't know how to read literature, I'm afraid.

 

[Brad Stark]

12 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Not to discount your theory, but I just wanted to point out that the description of having freckles marks her for death as well as the connection to blue flowers. It's symbolic of the spattering of blood from a sword wound, like the image of Lyanna Theon saw. There are several examples throughout the books of female characters described as having freckles or spots and they are connected to death or injury by sword. Cersei's childhood friend, Melara had freckles. Wenda the white "fawn" was part of the Kingswood Brotherhood that attacked Elia and injured Gerold Hightower. Myrcella drew red spots on her handmaiden, Rosamund before sneaking out of Sunspear to meet up with Arianne, which is followed by her injury where Darkstar tried to kill her. Barra of course watches as her baby is slaughtered in front of her eyes. To me the examples of freckles and spots connected to blue flowers are evidence that Lyanna died of a festering sword wound and not childbirth.

Seems to easy to make this connection.   So many characters die by the sword,  and the ones still alive we could say have a sign that they will die by the sword.   We could probably pick anything- people with curly black hair die by sword, people with green eyes, etc.  All men must die, and swords seem to be the most common way to go.

[Lord Wraith]

On 6/9/2017 at 4:43 PM, Black Crow said:

On the contrary, he didn't expect to lose at all, he was going to do great things when he got back from dealing with the rebels.

That wasn't something he said, rather it was the balladeers saying he went to war for love and the consequence ewas his death.

I agree. Especially given his discussion with Jaime before he left. 

On 6/9/2017 at 9:23 PM, JNR said:

Though I think there's a flipside of your coin.  RLJ has numerous logical problems not so far discussed in this thread.  All of those evaporate and vanish, never to return, if RLJ is not the case. 

And that's logically appealing too, just the option to construct a narrative that connects winter roses and the ToJ through Ned's dreams is logically appealing to RLJ true believers.

I agree about the problems with RLJ, most people aren't willing to admit or discuss them because RLJ is canon in their heads. More's the pity.

t

[Melifeather]

10 hours ago, JNR said:

The suggested symbolism was:

Unless by death you mean la petite mort, I don't think Dancy (who has both freckles and blue flowers) is going to support this idea very well.

And if it is the little death you have in mind, then super-freckly Brienne -- more's the pity for her -- doesn't even seem to fit in that sense, as far as the reader has been told.

Pretty easily.  Ned recalls:

If the room smells of blood and roses, they must both be fresh.  (This alone, btw, shows the roses can't possibly be the same as the ones that were cut ~2 years before at Harrenhal, as used in the crown she was given.)

Also, we have:

It's not hard to infer that if this girl had a baby, the birth process did not go well and she acquired an infection and from it, the fever.  So what kind of birth process would fill a room with the smell of blood, and also lead to much higher odds of infection?

A sword, as possibly wielded by a KG to perform an emergency C-section, would cover those facts pretty neatly.  So to that extent, I do agree with Feather.

But if you want symbolic support, you don't have to look very far:

This is from Theon's dream and hence, nonliteral... but as nonliteral images go, it's pretty damn literal.  Also, of course, spattered with gore really does not at all describe a conventional birth process that leads to puerperal fever... the usual favorite explanation, that we read about in another place.

Some of the freckled women don't die themselves, but are spattered with the blood of someone close to them. Lyanna could have been pierced with a male sword, yes, but Ned's willingness to provide sword lessons to Arya and her similarities to Lyanna make me think the sword was made of iron.

Ygritte can be added to the freckled women spattered with blood.

6 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Seems to easy to make this connection.   So many characters die by the sword,  and the ones still alive we could say have a sign that they will die by the sword.   We could probably pick anything- people with curly black hair die by sword, people with green eyes, etc.  All men must die, and swords seem to be the most common way to go.

I agree many characters die by the sword, but it's more of a symbolic connection for the female characters. How many female characters have died by the sword (male or iron) that were not freckled? I don't know myself, I'm just throwing the question out there.

[wolfmaid7]

On 6/11/2017 at 10:13 AM, Muttering Ed said:

Do tell! 

No problemo ehem.

Let's start with the illogical notion that Robert is only capable no matter what girl he knocks up of having black haired children.That is a notion borne from superstitious thinking held by some based their knowledge of who Robert had sex with and if those kids looked like him.

Grrm adresses this in real world:

27-32

But more importantly he adresses this in world via very insightul internal monolouge by Cat:

 

Catelyn read the letter again after the maester was gone. "Lord Meadows says nothing of Robert's bastard," she confided to Brienne. "I suppose he yielded the boy with the rest, though I confess, I do not understand why Stannis wanted him so badly." "Perhaps he fears the boy's claim." "A bastard's claim? No, it's something else . . . what does this child look like?" "He is seven or eight, comely, with black hair and bright blue eyes. Visitors oft thought him Lord Renly's own son." "And Renly favored Robert." Catelyn had a glimmer of understanding. "Stannis means to parade his brother's bastard before the realm, so men might see Robert in his face and wonder why there is no such likeness in Joffrey." 

"Would that mean so much?" "Those who favor Stannis will call it proof. Those who support Joffrey will say it means nothing." Her own children had more Tully about them than Stark. Arya was the only one to show much of Ned in her features. And Jon Snow, but he was never mine.

Using her as an example Cat is rightfully pointing out this is not proof.It doesn't matter how many kids Robert has that look like him he can have that don't.

So subscribing to this argument that Robert can only have children that look X and have X features is employing some of the same superstitious thinking that he had Cat dispel.

But what is it that Ned truly said on the matter of Robert?Does he understand this?He has to especially if he believes all his kids by Cat are his.

Peycelle tells him about the Thome.he turns to the Lannister page because he thinks that is where he'd find the answer. Peycelle also tells him of Arryn's famous last words... "The seed is strong"

When Sansa says the- Paraphrase, he is nothing like Robert.Ned understands what Arryn was getting at.This is important:

"The seed is strong, Jon Arryn had cried on his deathbed, and so it was. All those bastards, all with hair as black as night. Grand Maester Malleon recorded the last mating between stag and lion, some ninety years ago,when Tya Lannister wed Gowen Baratheon, third son of the reigning lord. Their only issue, an unnamed boy described in Malleon's tome as a large and lusty lad born with a full head of black hair, died in infancy. Thirty years before that a male Lannister had taken a Baratheon maid to wife. She had given him three daughters and a son, each black-haired.Their only issue, an unnamed boy described in Malleon's tome as a large and lusty lad boar with a full head of black hair. ... No matter how far back Ned searched in the brittle yellowed pages, always he found the gold yielding before the coal.”

Ned was specifically referencing Baratheon/ Lannister offspring and in no way does"he" think Robert can only sire black haired blue eyed babies.That entire line of thinking as indicated by GRRM is illogoical even for ASOIAF standards as shown by Cat.

What is strange and goes towards clues and perception. Arryn says "The seed is strong" yet it strange readers assume JA when saying this was referencing looks especially when it is not the only Robert or Baratheon trait:

Gendry

"This is Gendry. Strong for his age, and he works hard.

"You saw the boy. Such a strong boy. Those hands of his, those hands were made for hammers.

About Mya

“She found Mya Stone waiting impatiently with Lothor Brune and Mord. She must have come up in the bucket to see what was taking us so long. Slim and sinewy, Mya looked as tough as the old riding leathers she wore beneath her silvery ringmail shirt.”

About Edric

“Edric is a sturdily attractive youth, with jet-black hair and deep blue eyes.

Baratheons in general:

Their only issue, an unnamed boy described in Malleon's tome as a large and lusty lad born with a full head of black hair, died in infancy. 

GRRM has used seed to mean progeny in this series.Thus, Arryn could be just as easily be saying "the children of Robert are strong" This is noticeable in all his kids we have met.

Jon despite being slender was usually strong.Yet,fans seem to have amnesia when it comes to this trait which is as prevalent in these cases.This is how genes work.Some traits manifests some don't.Just as Shireen got Florent ears.

 

Another thing is you did something common among RLJers.I posted something and your reply had absolutely nothing to do with what i posted,but you preceded to post about what you assume would be a weak point.

So in short. The author himself in text and out gave a rebuttal to the Robert can only have kids only X traits. I mean seriously think about that assertion.

Ned never indicates that belief  at all and it doesn't make sense that he would given his lot.

When strength of his kids are prevalent as their look and given Arryn's words Jon now remarkable is accentuated more by the fact that he doesn't look it.Blood does tell,and it tells in different ways.As long as its in text ofcourse.

So you can hold to your belief,i will hold to what the text says.No problem with that either.

23 hours ago, Black Crow said:

 

I agree and as to "Trouserless Bob" it was me 

S.A.A

23 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Not to discount your theory, but I just wanted to point out that the description of having freckles marks her for death as well as the connection to blue flowers. It's symbolic of the spattering of blood from a sword wound, like the image of Lyanna Theon saw. There are several examples throughout the books of female characters described as having freckles or spots and they are connected to death or injury by sword. Cersei's childhood friend, Melara had freckles. Wenda the white "fawn" was part of the Kingswood Brotherhood that attacked Elia and injured Gerold Hightower. Myrcella drew red spots on her handmaiden, Rosamund before sneaking out of Sunspear to meet up with Arianne, which is followed by her injury where Darkstar tried to kill her. Barra of course watches as her baby is slaughtered in front of her eyes. To me the examples of freckles and spots connected to blue flowers are evidence that Lyanna died of a festering sword wound and not childbirth.

You get no disagreement from me on how Lyanna may have died.I am a strong proponent of her getting stuck with the pointy end.So i am not knocking the freckling if that is true. My thought every woman who was told their bloody bed should take place from birthing Asha and Brienne, were women who chose to carry a sword.Like Lyanna might have done.

This as i said is the MCD they are choosing for their bed of blood to occur by sword.

[ReturnOfCaponBreath]

23 hours ago, JNR said:

So the idea that freckles = death, like many other symbolic equivalencies, seems pretty sketchy to me.

I am a redhead as is one of my daughters. Redheads are just more prone to freckles, I agree there is nothing to see here in terms of hidden meaning.

[ReturnOfCaponBreath]

1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

 

Using her as an example Cat is rightfully pointing out this is not proof.It doesn't matter how many kids Robert has that look like him he can have that don't.

So subscribing to this argument that Robert can only have children that look X and have X features is employing some of the same superstitious thinking that he had Cat dispel.

Ned was specifically referencing Baratheon/ Lannister offspring and in no way does"he" think Robert can only sire black haired blue eyed babies.That entire line of thinking as indicated by GRRM is illogoical ...

So in short. The author himself in text and out gave a rebuttal to the Robert can only have kids only X traits. 

I disagree. The author is pointing out that whereas with other parentaage genetic traits are passed down from both sides with Robert Baratheon this does not appear to be the case.

There are no know offspring of Robert that aren't black haired. It is proven in the books that the lannister kids are not his.

Robert is not Cat and vice versa and the fact that Cats children have mixed traits strengthens rather than weakens the point about Roberts.

In terms Of The seed is strong it surely means the genetics which meas both the black hair and general robustness for which Robert is famed.  No reason to infer it means one and not the other when every single known bastard has Black hair regardless Of The other parental hair colour.

[JNR]

14 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

If you think this passage has nothing to do with sex, then you don't know how to read literature, I'm afraid.

 If you think she either literally died, or had an orgasm in that scene, I'm afraid the burden of proof is definitely on you.  

Though that second possibility would definitely help explain her fascination with dueling in her teens...

[JNR]

12 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

I agree about the problems with RLJ, most people aren't willing to admit or discuss them because RLJ is canon in their heads. More's the pity.

I'd go even further; I don't think most online fans are even aware of them.  But the problems are many and spectacular.

Most of GRRM's fans, of course, aren't on the forums at all... and probably still do not even realize Jon's parentage might be a mystery other than "Who is his mother?" 

I have an aunt like this, and I enjoyed walking her through a couple of different theories.

6 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Lyanna could have been pierced with a male sword, yes, but Ned's willingness to provide sword lessons to Arya and her similarities to Lyanna make me think the sword was made of iron.

What's the connection to iron?

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you.  Dawn was Dayne's sword, and it was forged from meteoric iron.