Heresy 199 Once upon a Time in the West

[Brad Stark]

Why and how would Ned tear down the tower to build cairns?  He and Howland were the only 2 survivors,  so it seems unlikely they physically demolished the tower themselves.   Did Ned go to Starfall and say "Hey, I just killed your son, can I have 2 dozen on your men to demolish your watch tower?".  It would also be much less work just to carry the bodies back or put them in ordinary graves, and as we know, the bodies were missed elsewhere. 

One possibility is Ned hated the tower because of what happened there, and this sentiment was shared by Ashara or another Dayne or nearby lord.  Perhaps he went to Starfall with Dawn and explained what happened and the Daynes decided to tear down the tower.  Ned might never even have gone back.

I also find it odd the burial of Ned's 5 friends and 3 enemies was done exactly the same. 

The only reason I can come up with for the tower being hated is it was the conventional love nest of Lyanna and Rheagar that started this whole mess.  I just don't see a random Ok Corral location being torn down after a fight.

[wolfmaid7]

5 hours ago, ReturnOfCaponBreath said:

This thread has made me realise that I have never really troubled myself too much with the question of Jon’s parentage, it clearly has some relevance to the story and I am vaguely aware of the options & theories but i’ve just never really been to bothered at forming an opinion.  So, in the interests of documenting my thoughts for the little they are worth:

 

WHAT WE KNOW OR CAN ASSUME AS FACT

At least 1 of Jon’s parents is a Stark (Whilst this can’t be guaranteed as fact it would damage the books so much, be so left field and open up the possibilities to be too endless to be assumed as anything other than fact given his looks and instant recognition as a Stark at & North of the Wall where they know much & more of Starks).

Jon has at least 1 unknown parent

Rhaegar has a baby “whose song is the song of Ice & Fire” as per the vision in the HOTU (Not sure if this can actually be considered fact)

 

CONTENDERS FOR STARK PARENTAGE

1.       Ned.   Evidence for:

Publically declared himself as the father, current Father of 5 so no known fertility issues. Means, motive & opportunity a plenty during the war.

 

Evidence against:

None Per se, the only evidence against being a more likely candidate if one exists.

 

What questions do we need to answer if Ned is the father?

Why the secrecy about the mother to his wife.  By modern standards he dishonoured her but In Westeros is commonplace and borderline acceptable.

Who was Lyannas child? She clearly had one who then goes off grid if Jon is Neds bastard and not hers . What is the meaning of Promise me if there is no child of Lyannas involved?

Why the blue the rose imagery associated with Jon at the wall, this is an allusion to Lyanna not Ned.

What is the narrative purpose of Ned being the father.  Jon is marked out from the start of GOT as somehow different & special, if he really is just a bastard then what storyline purpose does it serve other than misdirection.

Who does that leave as contenders for the baby in Dany’s vision, the one whose song is Ice & Fire.

 

2.       Lyanna.  Evidence for:

References to bed of blood can only reasonably be assumed to mean she gave birth given how often and in what context this Phrase is used in the books so its my belief that she definitely had a child,  whether or not that child is Jon.

 

Evidence against:

JNR has a fine list including, Lack of communication with the outside world, timing issues, and If Rhaegar is the alleged father issue with partner selection.

 

What questions do we need to answer if Lyanna is the Mother?

Answers for the questions posed by the evidence against.

Why does Ned lie about Wylla, Catelyn would have been much more accepting of Lyannaa true born son, why did the honerable New allow Jon to be scorned and at times mistreated by Cat when a simple clarification would have solved it at a stroke.

 

3.       Benjen at a push? (Not sure of the logistics on this one and may need confirmation or denial from a more learned contributor.)

Evidence for: Not much, Stark looks, the interest he shows in Jon when visiting Winterfell.

 

Evidence against:  Not sure on the means, motive, opportunity for Benjen and there is his NW Oath but Oathes are often broken.

 

What questions do we need to answer if Benjen is the Father?

Some the same as for Ned.  Why the mystery, Blue rose imagery. Plus...

Why would Ned need to lie (protect Benjens position in the watch?)

What are the logistics for Ned returning from Wall with Benjens bastard?

 

WHO ARE THE CONTENDERS FOR MYSTERY PARENT?

If the father is Ned:

 

1 a. Wylla.

Evidence for: It has been stated in private to his best friend & king of the realm. Ticks all of the means, motive & opportunity boxes.

 

Evidence against:  None in truth.

 

Questions we need to answer if Ned is the Father & Wylla is the mother:

Why the Blue rose symbology for Jon & PTWP  / His is the SOIAF prophecy in HOTU.

Why according to GRRM would more need to be revealed about Jons parentage later in the books if it’s already all been revealed.

 

1b. Ashara Dayne.

Evidence for: Ned fancies her, the visit to starfall.

 

Evidence against: Nothing specific.

 

Questions we need to answer if Ned is the Father & Ashara Dayne is the mother:

Why the Blue rose symbology for Jon & PTWP  / his is the SOIAF prophecy in HOTU.

 

If Lyanna is the mother:

 

2 a. Rhaegar.

 

Evidence for:

Tourney at Harrenhal behaviour, He clearly fancied her. 

His is the song of Ice & Fire prophecy implying Stark + Targaryen mix and R+L being the only viable option for this.

Lyanna bed of blood symbology – she clearly had a child who we need to account for if it isn’t Jon.

“Promise me Ned” speech within the context of bed of blood clearly is something to do with the protecting the child.  Of the candidates for father the most protection required would be for a child of Rhaegars.

 

Evidence against: Jon has no discernible Targaryen features.  It’s difficult to draw out any specific parallels to Rhaegar in terms of interests or temperament.

 

Questions we need to answer if Lyanna is the Mother & Rhaegar is the Father:

Nothing in terms of plotline – it makes the most sense & logic for all of the blue rose, Song of Ice & Fire symbology. However this would lead to perhaps the biggest question of all – would GRRM really be this obvious.  His books are anything but obvious and i’ve already been accused by at least 2 Heretics of having a Disney outlook.

 

2 b. Robert Baratheon

 

Evidence for: Love / Obsession. History of womanising.

 

Evidence against: Lack of Baratheon features (apart from alleged Baratheon super strength)

 

Questions we need to answer if Lyanna is the Mother & Robert is the Father:

Why would Ned need to lie to Robert who is known to treat his bastards well and has already acknowledged Edric Storm due to his high birth?Let

With the revelation that the Lannister kids are not his Robert could in theory legitimise Jon as his true heir to the 7 kingdoms and thus it also weakens the Trope busting element of it not being Rhaegar.

Robert never mentions being with Lyanna,  Ned never mentions Robert being with Lyanna, do we really think that when your best mate bangs your sister you don’t get to find out one way or another?

 

2 c. One of the Kingsguard (I think Feather Crystal has suggested this as a possibility as part of the inversion theory? edit actually I don't think you did, I think you said hurt/injured and I misinterpreted apologies )

 

Evidence for: None.

 

Evidence against: Oath, assumed honourable character of the 3 KG in question. The fact that for the KG to have done it implies that Lyanna was at TOJ which means they were all there on order of Rhaegar so the KG would have to either Rape or have consensual sex with Prince Rhaegars captive.  Way too much of a stretch IMHO

 

Questions we need to answer if Lyanna is the Mother & one of the KG is the Father:

What is Narrative purpose for Jon’s future story?

Undermines all of the Blue rose etc symbology for Jon.

Why would GRRM have a secret parent but then present zero evidence of who it might be and have it be some essentially randon off screen character?

 

3.  If Benjen if father.

Not sure really where to start her. I don’t have enough knowledge to even know if its feasible let alone have a list of maternal candidates so i’m going to dismiss this out of hand and hopefully I can be advised if I am wrong to do so.

 

CONCLUSIONS:

Hmmmm so where do this leave me? I’m still not sure.

If I take an Occams Razor approach to this then the theory that requires the least things to be true is Ned + Wylla.  However that leave so much unanswered about Jon & all of the symbology around him, the prophecies and the promise me speech that I have question marks.

 

If I look at what parentage best answers the most unanswered questions or perhaps leaves the least unanswered questions It seems to be the lamentable R+L=J. I’m afraid I disagree with JNR here in that there appears to be little in the way of actual factual challenge to the possibility of this  being true, the only real fly in the ointment being that we would be disappointed in GRRM if he had this as the answer.

 

Ned + Ashara seems at least plausible but less likely than both Ned + Wylla & Lyanna + Rhaegar.

All of the other options strike me as either having no evidence to support or overwhelming evidence against that I don’t think any of them are feasible so I think my summary in terms of likely hood is

 

= 1^st Ned + Wylla / Rhaegar + Lyanna but for completely different reasons.

3^rd Ned + Ashara

 

DQed Ned + Random, Lyanna + Robert,  Lyann + KG, Lyanna + Random, Benjen + Anyone.

 

Apologies to Black Crow as the intention of this thread isn’t to discuss Jons parentage but rather the TOJ scene so now I have this out of my system I will try to get back on topic

But you are doing the same thing...You are looking at evidence at evidence through RLJ lens.The very fact you did this:

Quote

Jon has at least 1 unknown parentRhaegar has a baby “whose song is the song of Ice & Fire” as per the vision in the HOTU (Not sure if this can actually be considered fact)

I will get to this later

I will let the other alternatives write there's they will have a lot to say. Let me take your Rhaegar first.

2 a. Rhaegar.

Evidence for:

Quote

Tourney at Harrenhal behaviour, He clearly fancied her. 

That isn't determined by that.He could have had another motive for crowning her.

 

Quote

His is the song of Ice & Fire prophecy implying Stark + Targaryen mix and R+L being the only viable option for this.

1.The song of ice and fire could mean many things including the eternal war Melissandre spoke of.His IS the song is not the same as 'he is' He could be a major or the part of a war.

2.Aegon is in play as a contender,the one whom Rhaegar named as having said song.Real or fake to be determined.

3.Dany is in play and per Aemon it is her.

Quote

Lyanna bed of blood symbology – she clearly had a child who we need to account for if it isn’t Jon

1.Bed of blood symbolism could mean Lyanna died from actual battle.As indicated earlier every bed of blood is conversation was directed at a girl who chose to carry a sword.It is not exclusive to birthing.

2. This is not exclusive to Rhaegar as a prospect.It could have occurred with any prospect if its about a baby
 

Quote

 

“Promise me Ned” speech within the context of bed of blood clearly is something to do with the protecting the child.  Of the candidates for father the most protection required would be for a child of Rhaegars.

 

 

 

1. Natural thing for a dying mother to see that her child would be protected and cared for by a loved one. There is no need for there to be a big bad after the baby.

 

Quote

Evidence against: Jon has no discernible Targaryen features.  It’s difficult to draw out any specific parallels to Rhaegar in terms of interests or temperament.

1.There isn't parallels or any connection at all. Rhaegar in 5 books is very disconnected from Jon.All his info dumps occur in Dany's chapter.

2. However,Targs can be dark haired.

 

Questions we need to answer if Lyanna is the Mother & Rhaegar is the Father:

Quote

Nothing in terms of plotline – it makes the most sense & logic for all of the blue rose, Song of Ice & Fire symbology. However this would lead to perhaps the biggest question of all – would GRRM really be this obvious.  His books are anything but obvious and i’ve already been accused by at least 2 Heretics of having a Disney outlook.

1. Blue rose symbolism with regards to Rhaegar ends at him giving it to her.

2.Song of ice and Fire symbolism could be there but not exclusive.

3. Per his wife no,GRRM doesn't do obvious.

4. Disney outlook...Yeah,but thats ok said in love.You have been consecrated to Heresy.

Quote

Jon has at least 1 unknown parentRhaegar has a baby “whose song is the song of Ice & Fire” as per the vision in the HOTU (Not sure if this can actually be considered fact)

Not a fact.

I am now going to use the exact criteria you used for Rhaegar but on Robert.

Quote

Tourney at Harrenhal behaviour, He clearly fancied her. 

1. They were betrothed

2. Robert loved her,Lyanna's  brother characterized Robert's love for Lyanna as exceeding his own.

----There actually is evidence Robert banged Lyanna and no Robert wouldn't be bragging about doing Lyanna to her brother).A man doesn't do that to his lady.But its pretty easy to gauge what relationship they had or didn't have.

3. Cersie Robert's current wife says he still loves Lyanna.

4. Ned and Robert believed had Lyanna lived they would have been married.

Quote

His is the song of Ice & Fire prophecy implying Stark + Targaryen mix and R+L being the only viable option for this.

Maestor Aemon believes AA and the TPTWP are one in the same and at one point he excludes Stannis on the basis that the sword was wrong.He even hoped it was Stannis because Stannis could be on account of him having Targ blood.Jon could be TPTWP without being Rhaegar's .In a scenario where Robert is the father if it is what GRRM wants Jon can still be TPTWP.

Quote

Lyanna bed of blood symbology – she clearly had a child who we need to account for if it isn’t Jon

1. If Lyanna did die on account of childbirth any prospect would do.

2. Robert's deathbed scene is an exact parallel to Lyanna's......Bed of blood,secured a promise to watch over and teach Joffrey. Thus linking Lyanna and Robert again.

Quote

“Promise me Ned” speech within the context of bed of blood clearly is something to do with the protecting the child.  Of the candidates for father the most protection required would be for a child of Rhaegars.

1.Robert's child by Lyanna would have required both physical and emotional protection.Had he remained in the capital he would have been dead. Cersie would have strangled him in his crib.No lie she actually said if she were Cat she would have done so.I believe Ned when he said."None of Robert's bastards are at court because of her's.Jon would be shunned at court.

2.Currently,Robert's children are a threat to Cersie's.

Quote

Evidence against: Jon has no discernible Targaryen features.  It’s difficult to draw out any specific parallels to Rhaegar in terms of interests or temperament.

1.Has immense strength; major and talked about trait

2.Has temper; major trait of Robert

3.known for his smiling.So much so Sam noticed it being gone.Arya missed it.

4. Several parallels.I mean its a lot.

Questions Caponbreath thinks need be answered.

Quote

Nothing in terms of plotline – it makes the most sense & logic for all of the blue rose, Song of Ice & Fire symbology. However this would lead to perhaps the biggest question of all – would GRRM really be this obvious.  His books are anything but obvious and i’ve already been accused by at least 2 Heretics of having a Disney outlook.

1 Rose symbolism- Check.post 16

 2.Fire and ice symbolism- Check,Holly and Oak symbolism,Corn King symbolism...Check.

3.It aint obvious to a lot of people. I've been catching flack since i proposed it.

 

And to be fair i will add evidence against.

1.He don't have blue eyes and black hair. Awwww shucks.

 

I will add a lot of what you think is proof isn't and actually could be used for other prospects.

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, wolfmaid7 said:

But you are doing the same thing...You are looking at evidence at evidence through RLJ lens.The very fact you did this:

I will get to this later

I will let the other alternatives write there's they will have a lot to say. Let me take your Rhaegar first.

2 a. Rhaegar.

Evidence for:

That isn't determined by that.He could have had another motive for crowning her.

 

1.The song of ice and fire could mean many things including the eternal war Melissandre spoke of.His IS the song is not the same as 'he is' He could be a major or the part of a war.

2.Aegon is in play as a contender,the one whom Rhaegar named as having said song.Real or fake to be determined.

3.Dany is in play and per Aemon it is her.

1.Bed of blood symbolism could mean Lyanna died from actual battle.As indicated earlier every bed of blood is conversation was directed at a girl who chose to carry a sword.It is not exclusive to birthing.

2. This is not exclusive to Rhaegar as a prospect.It could have occurred with any prospect if its about a baby
 

1. Natural thing for a dying mother to see that her child would be protected and cared for by a loved one. There is no need for there to be a big bad after the baby.

 

1.There isn't parallels or any connection at all. Rhaegar in 5 books is very disconnected from Jon.All his info dumps occur in Dany's chapter.

2. However,Targs can be dark haired.

 

Questions we need to answer if Lyanna is the Mother & Rhaegar is the Father:

1. Blue rose symbolism with regards to Rhaegar ends at him giving it to her.

2.Song of ice and Fire symbolism could be there but not exclusive.

3. Per his wife no,GRRM doesn't do obvious.

4. Disney outlook...Yeah,but thats ok said in love.You have been consecrated to Heresy.

Not a fact.

I am now going to use the exact criteria you used for Rhaegar but on Robert.

1. They were betrothed

2. Robert loved her,Lyanna's  brother characterized Robert's love for Lyanna as exceeding his own.

----There actually is evidence Robert banged Lyanna and no Robert wouldn't be bragging about doing Lyanna to her brother).A man doesn't do that to his lady.But its pretty easy to gauge what relationship they had or didn't have.

3. Cersie Robert's current wife says he still loves Lyanna.

4. Ned and Robert believed had Lyanna lived they would have been married.

Maestor Aemon believes AA and the TPTWP are one in the same and at one point he excludes Stannis on the basis that the sword was wrong.He even hoped it was Stannis because Stannis could be on account of him having Targ blood.Jon could be TPTWP without being Rhaegar's .In a scenario where Robert is the father if it is what GRRM wants Jon can still be TPTWP.

1. If Lyanna did die on account of childbirth any prospect would do.

2. Robert's deathbed scene is an exact parallel to Lyanna's......Bed of blood,secured a promise to watch over and teach Joffrey. Thus linking Lyanna and Robert again.

1.Robert's child by Lyanna would have required both physical and emotional protection.Had he remained in the capital he would have been dead. Cersie would have strangled him in his crib.No lie she actually said if she were Cat she would have done so.I believe Ned when he said."None of Robert's bastards are at court because of her's.Jon would be shunned at court.

2.Currently,Robert's children are a threat to Cersie's.

1.Has immense strength major and talked about trait

2.Has temper major trait of Robert

3.known for his smiling.So much so 

4. Several parallels.I mean its a lot.

Questions Caponbreath thinks need be answered.

1 Rose symbolism- Check.post 16

 2.Fire and ice symbolism- Check,Holly and Oak symbolism,Corn King symbolism...Check.

3.It aint obvious to a lot of people. I've been catching flack since i proposed it.

 

And to be fair i will add evidence against.

1.He don't have blue eyes and black hair. Awwww shucks.

 

I will add a lot of what you think is proof isn't and actually could be used for other prospects.

JNR keeps telling me that GRRM doesn't do obvious.  I'd like to spend some time responding but I've just sold my house and I have re-locate. 

[wolfmaid7]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

Yes, we've all seen enough on Jon's parents and some interesting things on TOJ have been said, so I hope to see the conversation go that direction.   Lyanna,  Ashara and Wylla all potentially play a part in that tale, but if Robert is the father,  that doesn't seem relevant to TOJ.

Thing with the tower it isn't necessary for Jon's parentage at all.It could be where she just ended up if she was there.

59 minutes ago, ReturnOfCaponBreath said:

Some TOJ questions I have mixing up a few Of The current themes being discussed.

If Lyanna isn't at TOJ:

Why is she in Neds recollection, what has made people think they were 2 separate events?

Why has Ned gone there at all? If it's a KG hunting expedition why go himself? Why take few enough men that victory isn't assured? We see in GOT when he wants Clegane hunted he sends Dondarrion + 70 men I think (50 city watch + 20 household guard) so it's not in keeping with his known military form.

If it's a one arranged meet / reencounter. 

Why? 

Why uneven sides?

If it's a trial of 7:

What is the crime?

Who is the subject? 1 or all Of The KG. 

Is there even such a thing as a trial if 7? There is trial by combat which is 1 champ Vs another or the accused Vs a champ do we see or hear reference to a trial of 7 anywhere in the books?

Why would Staunch Northerner Ned care about anything to do with the 7?

She isn't in Ned's recollection.Her screaming was in Ned's dream.Her screaming when they clashed swords is what makes many believe she was there.

But this is what Ned says when he found her.

1. Her voice was barley a whisper because the fever took her strength.

2.She was in her bed of blood.Either way she wasn't standing by some window or doorway  looking out on proceedings.

3. They found him with Lyanna.....Who were the they and the use of they "found" is strange seeing as found means

"to come upon unexpectedly" which would be weird.

[Prof. Cecily]

What fun this thread is!

20 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I'm going to have to disagree. As noted by Brad, the composition of Eddard's party is odd, and I think it reflects Eddard's intent--he wanted to be clandestine, and he brought along men he could trust to keep a secret.

A planned encounter, even against ostensibly honorable men, can easily become a disaster--if he's ambushed by, not just the KG, but some token force of Dornishmen and Targaryen loyalists, they suddenly have multiple valuable hostages, or can even undermine the stability of the new regime by killing one of Robert's most important allies.

Spoiler

Furthermore, Eddard didn't bring along the best of the best of what Robert's army had to offer, he appears to have specifically chosen Northmen, nobles with whom there is an existing relationship. Granted, if you're going into a dangerous fight, you want to be surrounded by people you trust, but this doesn't look like a crew that was put together to kill the best swordsman in all of Westeros, and two other swordsmen of (we must assume) dangerous caliber. 

Keep in mind what is being risked here, if Eddard's intent is to find and battle the last remaining KG: he's risking the Lord of Winterfell, the future Lord of the House Reed, and the Lord of Barrowton. Even for a man who might be the sort to respect the idea of the "honorable duel," this would be extraordinarily reckless, and I'm not certain that he went south with the expectation that he was going to find himself in a duel to the death. 

 

And even more odd, considering what the temper of House Martell would have been after learning about Princess Elia and her children. The entire incident makes no sense at all to me.

 

20 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Spoiler

 

No other "Lyanna + X" scenario can cite text to establish motive and opportunity. Some can establish motive, some can establish opportunity, but only Rhaegar has both going for him--for now.

Yes, that is the way we are introduced to the R+L premise, which is why it's immediately plausible. Again, "romance" is not a necessary assumption for RLJ to be true!

Nonetheless, what future volumes have done is to add nuance and information to Robert's point of view, to add context. With five volumes, the trend of that context has not been to undermine the idea that Rhaegar was infatuated with Lyanna Stark, but to put a more 'favorable' spin on Rhaegar's intentions than Robert's interpretation.

Maybe, but we don't really know what Rhaegar was capable of, because we're at the mercy of biased POVs. A potential issue here is that, just because someone is admired, that doesn't mean they're good, at least as we would define it; this is an important element of Jamie Lannister's POV insight into Aerys II's KG, widely admired men...who stood by as Aerys II tortured people to death, savaged his own wife, and probably would have allowed Aerys to burn down King's Landing with wildfire, had any of them been in Jamie's place.

Rhaegar is the beneficiary of being born a handsome, intelligent man whose last name is Targaryen--compare that to the way Tyrion is unfairly perceived within the world.

 

Now, I don't believe Rhaegar was a rapist, but I don't think we need to attempt to reconcile Rhaegar's actions with the fact that he was well-liked and admired--almost regardless of what the truth turns out to be, he appears to have made major mistakes that contributed to the downfall of House Targaryen.

An excellent point. With any luck, Rhaegar's actions will be cleared up in the following books.

 

 

10 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

I still cannot figure out the multiquote function on this site to copy @Feather Crystal too, but I know she's already seen this anyway.Some time ago I was researching another topic and opted to take a closer look at the 6 men that accompanied Ned to the TOJ.  It should go without saying that this absolutely ties into PrettyPig Crackpot Theory #2,465, but I won't pollute minds with any of that - these are just the "facts" about the Magnificent Seven.

Spoiler

We know that all of Ned's companions are Northmen, sworn to Winterfell.  To review:

1)       Ned – from Winterfell, of course

2)      Howland Reed - the Neck

3)      William Dustin  - Barrowlands

4)      Ethan Glover  - Deepwood Motte

5)      Martyn Cassell - lands just north of Winterfell (not sure exactly where, but as vassals to the Starks they are fairly close by)

6)      Theo Wull – the mountains by Bay of Ice

7)       Mark Ryswell  - the Rills

To drive the point home, I would have you look at a map of Westeros' North, and take a good look at the locations of the lands that the representative of each house holds:      http://iceandfire.wikia.com/wiki/The_North?file=The_North_map.png   (click image to enlarge)

A different map listing the Houses within the territories:  http://iceandfire.wikia.com/wiki/File:The_North_Houses.png

The first takeaway is that not a one of Ned's companions comes from a house east of the Kingsroad - Manderly, Karstark, Umber, etc....not represented in the group despite strong loyalties to House Stark (at least back then).    The omission of Umber in particular gets an eyebrow-raise from me because one would think that if Ned were gathering trusted men to take to a confrontation, he would bring at least ONE of the "Jons" for brute strength, right?    Regardless, I have to wonder why some of those faithful eastern-side houses weren't part of his merry band.  

Second, look at the lands of his companions in geospatial relationship:    en masse, these lands literally form a blockade for the whole northwest.  The only area not represented to the west in this posse is that of the Stony Shore - possibly because it is sparsely inhabited by peasant fisherfolk (I don't believe there's even a northern house there at all TO represent, actually...Stony Shore may be part of Ryswell territory, I really have no idea who claims that land).   The burning question though:   why this relationship?    Why would you need to 'seal up' your defenses from the west in this manner, especially in the farthest reaches of the North where no one goes anyway?    Why would you need a walking, talking personal guarantee of the areas that make up the Westerosi version of the Bering Strait as part of your posse?

Third, look at these lands again from more of a travel or military perspective this time.    Let's say you wanted to get from far north-North to far south-North or vice versa - but you can't take the Kingsroad and you can't take a ship to the West thanks to reaving Krakens.   Let's make it even more specific and say you wanted to go between somewhere in the Neck - say, Greywater Watch - and somewhere in the uppermost North - say, the Wall.   Not sure on what route your Trip Planner will send you?    Well, have a look!    Remember to stay to the left of the yellow line:

http://imgur.com/r/gameofthrones/0UY8Z        In case it's not clear, you would pass squarely through the territories of each of these 7 houses.

For the final point, return again to that first set of trusty maps.    Of all the principal houses west of the Kingsroad, which ones don't have a member in the Ned 7?    Well, there's Tallhart - but Torrhen's Square is safely sandwiched between the Barrowlands and the Wolfswood (which can protect itself, methinks) so could be Tallhart territory is already covered by other houses and therefore presence isn't necessary.  (Recall that Bran/Jojen/Meera successfully travel along the edges of the Wolfswood on their journey north.)   However...keep looking, north and north and north again.   Up by House Glover and House Wull in the aforementioned Bering Strait.    Notice a familiar name that's missing from this list?

House Mormont.     Granted, Bear Island is out there by its lonesome, stuck in the water like the hairy stepchild it is, but nonetheless it "knows no king but the King in the North, whose name is STARK".    So why isn't Jorah along for the TOJ ride?  Or Jeor?

With that, I'm shuffling into my tinfoil territory so won't go much further  -   but I hope this has illustrated that there is a discernible pattern to Ned's selection of men, and the mystery remains as to what that pattern means.    IMO Ned was not selecting them solely for loyalty/secrecy/companionship...he was selecting them for guaranteed safe passage through their lands.      One could almost view Ned's choices like wards - collateral, if you will.    

I for one am insanely curious to learn why House Mormont is the outlier...quite literally, a chink in a wall of Ice.    I can't wait to find out if a blue flower grew there.

 

 

 

 

I like this post and applaud your work!

Now I shan't rest til I learn why Ned chose representatives of Houses located to the west of the King's Road for his party to the Red Mountains of Dorne.

10 minutes ago, LynnS said:

JNR keeps telling me that GRRM doesn't do obvious.  I'd like to spend some time responding but I've just sold my house and I have re-locate. 

Congratulations on selling the house and all the best with the re-locate!

[ReturnOfCaponBreath]

39 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

 

1.Bed of blood symbolism could mean Lyanna died from actual battle.As indicated earlier every bed of blood is conversation was directed at a girl who chose to carry a sword.It is not exclusive to birthing.

Not so.

AFFC the Prophet.

 

"Nine sons had been born from the loins of Quellon Greyjoy, but only four had lived to manhood. That was the way of this cold world, where men fished the sea and dug in the ground and died, whilst women brought forth short-lived children from beds of blood and pain. "

beds of blood always refers to childbirth and may coincidentally have a subset of women who also carries swords, but it always means childbirth.

[ReturnOfCaponBreath]

10 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

 

I for one am insanely curious to learn why House Mormont is the outlier...quite literally, a chink in a wall of Ice.    I can't wait to find out if a blue flower grew there.

 

The old bear choses Jon as squire and gives him the family blade longclaw.

[PrettyPig]

17 minutes ago, ReturnOfCaponBreath said:

The old bear choses Jon as squire and gives him the family blade longclaw.

Yes, that is most interesting, isn't it?   But that's another topic...

To add to my note about how one would pass through these lands of these 7 men if traveling between the Neck and the Wall, let me be more specific:    

The northernmost destination that would be on a straight arrow path through these territories- and brushing up against the oddly absent House Mormont as well- is the Shadow Tower.

Shadow Tower also happens to be where Mance Rayder would be hanging out prior to his desertion of the NW.      For the record, I am not promoting a Mance = Rhaegar idea here, but I DO believe Mance has a connection to this 'pattern' that should be explored... particularly in relation to Bear Island, Jeor taking the black, and Jorah's exile.    There's something "there" there.

[LordBlakeney]

On 6/12/2017 at 0:31 PM, JNR said:

I'd go even further; I don't think most online fans are even aware of them.  But the problems are many and spectacular.

Might be because some people claim to have theories that they won't even share. 

[wolfmaid7]

1 hour ago, ReturnOfCaponBreath said:

Not so.

AFFC the Prophet.

 

"Nine sons had been born from the loins of Quellon Greyjoy, but only four had lived to manhood. That was the way of this cold world, where men fished the sea and dug in the ground and died, whilst women brought forth short-lived children from beds of blood and pain. "

beds of blood always refers to childbirth and may coincidentally have a subset of women who also carries swords, but it always means childbirth.

Yes this is in relation to men battling the elements and dying ....Battles

So it is actually,beds of blood is a subset of battles of which childbirth is a subset.

I will get the text but women battling like men and having their beds of blood on the battle field isn't a subset but the anomaly.

[ReturnOfCaponBreath]

19 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Yes this is in relation to men battling the elements and dying ....Battles

So it is actually,beds of blood is a subset of battles of which childbirth is a subset.

I will get the text but women battling like men and having their beds of blood on the battle field isn't a subset but the anomaly.

Your original point was that beds of blood is only ever used about women who wear swords.  It isn't. In the same way as in the real world when we say someone has a bun in the oven we are never talking about bakers.

Even in the ambiguous world of GRRM some things only have 1 meaning.

[JNR]

22 hours ago, Matthew. said:

No other "Lyanna + X" scenario can cite text to establish motive and opportunity. Some can establish motive, some can establish opportunity, but only Rhaegar has both going for him--for now.

Okay, I'll play along with this. 

I assume by "opportunity," you mean "the physical opportunity to impregnate Lyanna."

This means you must have some particular point in time in mind, in which you think Rhaegar took that opportunity.

When was that?

22 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

I can't agree with you there.

I see a number of possible scenarios for R+L=J, including a marriage between R and L.

Yes, it's certainly true that the theory of RLJ, as expressed on this site, often includes that option.

What I think Snowfyre is getting at is not how the theory is formulated on this site... but where it obviously comes from in the canon.

The canonical text says -- twice -- that Rhaegar raped Lyanna.  The text also says zero times that Rhaegar had consensual sex with Lyanna.

Even if Selmy is right that Rhaegar loved Lyanna, that has nothing to do with Lyanna's feelings about having sex with Rhaegar.

This means those who believe in consensual sex are simply choosing to overrule the text (that twice says she was raped).  

Their position is not: "It's canonical that Rhaegar raped Lyanna."  Their position is: "It's canonical that Bran and Robert believe Rhaegar raped Lyanna."   And I agree with that second position, which is precise.

That idea is, logically speaking, identical to saying: "It's not canonical that Rhaegar loved Lyanna.  It's only canonical that Selmy believed Rhaegar loved Lyanna." 

It's also identical to saying "It's not canonical that Craster's sons become Others.  It's only canonical that Craster's wife on the left believes that Craster's sons become Others."

Character belief is not necessarily canonical reality.

[Prof. Cecily]

4 minutes ago, JNR said:

Okay, I'll play along with this. 

I assume by "opportunity," you mean "the physical opportunity to impregnate Lyanna."

This means you must have some particular point in time in mind, in which you think Rhaegar took that opportunity.

When was that?

Yes, it's certainly true that the theory of RLJ, as expressed on this site, often includes that option.

What I think Snowfyre is getting at is not how the theory is formulated on this site... but where it obviously comes from in the canon.

The canonical text says -- twice -- that Rhaegar raped Lyanna.  The text also says zero times that Rhaegar had consensual sex with Lyanna.

Even if Selmy is right that Rhaegar loved Lyanna, that has nothing to do with Lyanna's feelings about having sex with Rhaegar.

This means those who believe in consensual sex are simply choosing to overrule the text (that twice says she was raped).  

Their position is not: "It's canonical that Rhaegar raped Lyanna."  Their position is: "It's canonical that Bran and Robert believe Rhaegar raped Lyanna."   And I agree with that second position, which is precise.

That idea is, logically speaking, identical to saying: "It's not canonical that Rhaegar loved Lyanna.  It's only canonical that Selmy believed Rhaegar loved Lyanna." 

It's also identical to saying "It's not canonical that Craster's sons become Others.  It's only canonical that Craster's wife on the left believes that Craster's sons become Others."

Character belief is not necessarily canonical reality.

Just so!

As far as I can tell, that's the fun of working with POVs.

I'm reminded of a number of events where the POV constrains and defines our perception of the action- none more than that dratted ToJ and what the 7 hells really happened there.

And what led up to that confrontation that figures in Ned's fever dream.

 

 

[Matthew.]

13 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

Third, look at these lands again from more of a travel or military perspective this time.    Let's say you wanted to get from far north-North to far south-North or vice versa - but you can't take the Kingsroad and you can't take a ship to the West thanks to reaving Krakens.   Let's make it even more specific and say you wanted to go between somewhere in the Neck - say, Greywater Watch - and somewhere in the uppermost North - say, the Wall.   Not sure on what route your Trip Planner will send you?    Well, have a look!    Remember to stay to the left of the yellow line:

...

With that, I'm shuffling into my tinfoil territory so won't go much further  -   but I hope this has illustrated that there is a discernible pattern to Ned's selection of men, and the mystery remains as to what that pattern means.    IMO Ned was not selecting them solely for loyalty/secrecy/companionship...he was selecting them for guaranteed safe passage through their lands.      One could almost view Ned's choices like wards - collateral, if you will.    

This is a potentially significant observation in the sense that, while things ultimately worked out between Eddard and Robert, at the time that Eddard is heading into Dorne, relations with the crown are strained--the Lannisters are weaseling their way in, Jon Arryn has overruled Eddard on how best to deal with Jamie Lannister (actually, I'm not sure when this happened chronologically...), and Robert's rage at the Targaryens is so great that he's willing to accept what happened to Elia and her children.

With all of that in mind, Eddard might have had some suspicion that he was about to embroil himself in protecting some vestige of the Targaryen regime - Aegon VI, Jon, Dany if the house with the red door is in Dorne - and would need some guarantee of, not just secrecy, but security; the North has its own share of ambitious Houses, and Eddard could easily find himself in danger if any of his vassal houses were looking to make in-roads with the new regime. Quite possibly, Eddard committed treason (from the perspective of the usurpers) during his time in Dorne.

[Matthew.]

29 minutes ago, JNR said:

Okay, I'll play along with this. 

I assume by "opportunity," you mean "the physical opportunity to impregnate Lyanna."

This means you must have some particular point in time in mind, in which you think Rhaegar took that opportunity.

When was that?

I touched upon this in the previous thread, but broadly speaking, I'm thinking sometime during Robert's Rebellion, or the the time immediately preceding. If I'm not mistaken, GRRM has placed the time of Jon's birth as sometime between 8 and 9 months before Dany's birth, and Dany's conception as sometime around the final month of Robert's Rebellion.

In any case, my standard here is what we can cite based on the text. We can establish that, supposedly, Lyanna was in Rhaegar's company after her disappearance, that she was near the Inn at the Crossroads sometime beforehand, and at the Harrenhal Tournament some nebulous period of time before that.

[Melifeather]

5 hours ago, ReturnOfCaponBreath said:

Some TOJ questions I have mixing up a few Of The current themes being discussed.

If Lyanna isn't at TOJ:

Why is she in Neds recollection, what has made people think they were 2 separate events?

Why has Ned gone there at all? If it's a KG hunting expedition why go himself? Why take few enough men that victory isn't assured? We see in GOT when he wants Clegane hunted he sends Dondarrion + 70 men I think (50 city watch + 20 household guard) so it's not in keeping with his known military form.

If it's a one arranged meet / reencounter. 

Why? 

Why uneven sides?

If it's a trial of 7:

What is the crime?

Who is the subject? 1 or all Of The KG. 

Is there even such a thing as a trial if 7? There is trial by combat which is 1 champ Vs another or the accused Vs a champ do we see or hear reference to a trial of 7 anywhere in the books?

Why would Staunch Northerner Ned care about anything to do with the 7?

Did you get a chance to review what I said about the Wall being a hinge? And that hinges hold doors, so theoretically the Wall has doors that can open and close? Well, depending upon if and when a door opened or closed, Ned may have been riding north to find Lyanna, but in his dreams he headed south instead. He says Howland saved him from Arthur Dayne, but maybe he was saved because Howland explained what was real and what was just a dream?

His recollection of events are getting jumbled with a recurring "old dream" of three Kingsguard and a tower long fallen. What a lot of readers have concluded is that the showdown in real life was the same as the dream. Maybe they are the same, but I believe that they are not the same.  IMO Ned found Lyanna in a fallen down tower in the north, a mirrored reflection of the tower of joy. He knows the difference between real life and the dream. That is why he compares the two, but we as readers have not received confirmation as to which is true...yet.

I had thought before that the "door opening" had occurred during the Year of the False Spring at Harrenhal, but why would Ned get so confused during/after the Rebellion? He's basically seeing double. He knows how the actual events went, but he sees the mirrored inversion in his dreams. I know I sound crazy, but I think this is what we'll learn in future books that the greenseers are able to affect the future by changing the "players". And through the manipulation of wards, or opening or shutting doors on the Wall, they can apply specific events to different people. They cannot with certainty predict the outcome, but they will get a different outcome.

 

2 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

Yes, that is most interesting, isn't it?   But that's another topic...

To add to my note about how one would pass through these lands of these 7 men if traveling between the Neck and the Wall, let me be more specific:    

The northernmost destination that would be on a straight arrow path through these territories- and brushing up against the oddly absent House Mormont as well- is the Shadow Tower.

Shadow Tower also happens to be where Mance Rayder would be hanging out prior to his desertion of the NW.      For the record, I am not promoting a Mance = Rhaegar idea here, but I DO believe Mance has a connection to this 'pattern' that should be explored... particularly in relation to Bear Island, Jeor taking the black, and Jorah's exile.    There's something "there" there.

[PrettyPig]

57 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Quite possibly, Eddard committed treason (from the perspective of the usurpers) during his time in Dorne

Or long before he ever got to Dorne, which is my gut feeling at this 10 seconds.

Which semi-ties into your comment about Jon Arryn as well- recall that JA went to Dorne not long after war's end to talk the Martells off the ledge.  I wonder what he could have possibly told them that kept them chilling for 14 years, and whether Ned's actions during the Rebellion were part of that conversation.

[ReturnOfCaponBreath]

18 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Did you get a chance to review what I said about the Wall being a hinge? And that hinges hold doors, so theoretically the Wall has doors that can open and close? Well, depending upon if and when a door opened or closed, Ned may have been riding north to find Lyanna, but in his dreams he headed south instead. He says Howland saved him from Arthur Dayne, but maybe he was saved because Howland explained what was real and what was just a dream?

His recollection of events are getting jumbled with a recurring "old dream" of three Kingsguard and a tower long fallen. What a lot of readers have concluded is that the showdown in real life was the same as the dream. Maybe they are the same, but I believe that they are not the same.  IMO Ned found Lyanna in a fallen down tower in the north, a mirrored reflection of the tower of joy. He knows the difference between real life and the dream. That is why he compares the two, but we as readers have not received confirmation as to which is true...yet.

I had thought before that the "door opening" had occurred during the Year of the False Spring at Harrenhal, but why would Ned get so confused during/after the Rebellion? He's basically seeing double. He knows how the actual events went, but he sees the mirrored inversion in his dreams. I know I sound crazy, but I think this is what we'll learn in future books that the greenseers are able to affect the future by changing the "players". And through the manipulation of wards, or opening or shutting doors on the Wall, they can apply specific events to different people. They cannot with certainty predict the outcome, but they will get a different outcome.

Well it's wonderfully poetic and creative but I think the biggest challenge to it would be that if this were revealed to be the truth readers would collectively just say WTF? and it would damage the legacy of the books as readers would consider it so left field as to have come from seemingly nowhere in their opinion. 

There is a good thread in the general forum that is looking at a comment made by GRRMs Chief editor I think that talks about his 3 step formula for a reveal basically a vague hint for the very creative, then a bigger hint, then a blindingly obvious hint for simple creaturea like me.  Might be worth trying to apply the methodology to the theory to see if it sticks?

[Melifeather]

32 minutes ago, ReturnOfCaponBreath said:

Well it's wonderfully poetic and creative but I think the biggest challenge to it would be that if this were revealed to be the truth readers would collectively just say WTF? and it would damage the legacy of the books as readers would consider it so left field as to have come from seemingly nowhere in their opinion. 

There is a good thread in the general forum that is looking at a comment made by GRRMs Chief editor I think that talks about his 3 step formula for a reveal basically a vague hint for the very creative, then a bigger hint, then a blindingly obvious hint for simple creaturea like me.  Might be worth trying to apply the methodology to the theory to see if it sticks?

I'm probably making things sound more difficult that they are, but that's on me and not the author. 

[Lord Wraith]

8 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Ummm yes you do seeing as a plot device is about moving the story forward.It in itself may not be be more important than for that purpose.

Being immensely strong and hot tempered doesn't sound Baratheon??? Hmmm.

Slender, graceful, and quick doesn't strike me as Baratheon ish.